"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:16 am

I really do not like Vegeta's power up here, really the scene in general just feels like a waste. Though I do find it funny how it has the opposite message from the anime's Vegeta, in the anime Vegeta is about how he'll cast aside nothing while here it's Vegeta speechifying about how he casts aside everything. The scene itself has a really weird characterization of Vegeta, who powers up out of petty jealousy (Great to know Vegeta is still stuck) and rants how he always puts everything on the line and that everyone else doesn't? The fuck? I know Vegeta is arrogant a lot, but this just seems out of nowhere. Especially after Roshi retconned him and Frieza. Jiren putting him in his place and calling him out on such a dumb assumption was the best part of the chapter by far.

The power-up feels pointless, the scene itself has no weight in character either emotionally or thematically. At best it gives Jiren one good line.

As much as I find Blue Evolution, like Super Saiyan Rage, utterly pointless (Seriously, I do not know why these forms exists since TOEI doesn't really try to market them and in-universe they aren't even acknowledged) and goofy looking (Vegeta is so adorable, guys!), I do think that the fight between Vegeta and Toppo deserves a lot more credit in terms of themes and character. It's the continuation of Toppo's character arc where he's challenged by his own values, casts them off as weaknesses (In a manner that sorta links to Jiren's whole 'strength above all' stuff) only to be shown the error of it by Vegeta. The fight itself is also a reflection on Vegeta, since Toppo in this instance is basically a similar situation to Majin Vegeta. Someone who sacrificed their very being, their values, their soul for the sake of power. So, Vegeta's speech on how he'll cast aside nothing, looking on Toppo with both disgust and shame is a rather interesting character building moment. By beating Toppo and surviving the same explosion move he used back in the Buu arc, Vegeta shows himself that he's changed and that he'll sacrifice his attachments again.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:33 am

Things I liked in this chapter:
• Freeza was handled pretty well. Even though he wasn't able to hurt Jiren, he wasn't embarrassed. He outwitted Toppo and Dyspo, and got two eliminations.
• Cool to see UI omen make another appearance. I honestly didn't think the form would appear at all in the manga, and this is the second time now.
• I was happy to see the stuff with 17 happening similar to the anime, since it could mean we'll have the same ending to the tournament as they did (which was one of my all-time favorite DB moments).

Things I didn't like in this chapter:
• Toppo and Dyspo felt a lot closer to the rest of the Pride Troopers in the manga, while in the anime they were legit forces to be reckoned with.
• One thing I liked about the anime is how at the end of each episode, we'd get a reminder of how much time was remaining in the TOP. We haven't gotten that in the manga sadly.

Things I'm neutral about:
• I'm happy Vegeta's powerup happened, but it's not really visually distinctive. Maybe I need to look at the aura more, and look back at Goku's kaioken or whatever last chapter. One thing that didn't make sense in the anime was Vegeta getting similar pupils to Goku in UI. I get why (him powering up in his own way), but it doesn't seem like it fit. In the manga they avoided that, but at first glance it seemed similar to incomplete blue.
• Seems they're really pushing the Saiyans evolve in battle angle. It seems a bit weird because in the past, it was about fighting/training and getting zenkais. Besides that, in the absence of zenkais, other Saiyan powerups were rage boosts, and most were temporary. Set-up for the Broly movie maybe?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:42 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote: How is this anymore of an explanation than what happened in the anime?
A character getting a last minute power-up due to his emotions is pretty much the standard for anime. Fine, whatever. It's when said character gets said power up, we're told explicitely that he had reach his limits, and then gets ANOTHER power up just so he can get a win is bullshit. It's Super doubling down on the idea that nothing really matters--he'll just break his limitations so we can get a fancy cool fight scene and all the fanboys will be happy. It's lazy storytelling because it's a cheap way to back out of the corner the writers wrote themselves in
Again, this isn’t addressing what I’m actually asking. I’m not talking about further power ups he got. I’m specifically talking this instant against Jiren (just like the person I quoted was doing in the first part of his post). What makes the manga “explanation” any better (or worse) than what happened in its anime counterpart?
Pretty sure I did. Essentially Royal Blue is in line with Trunks SSJRage in that it’s sole purpose is to give a fan-favorite character an edge so he can appear badass for a couple of minutes.

That’s not what’s happening here. It’s Vegeta being Vegeta and going right into the whole Saiyan pride bit. However, what makes this different is that it feeds right into the themes that Toyotaro is exploring within this arc. Look at the difference between Vegeta’s outburst and Goku calmly sliding into UI. There’s a point being made here. Vegeta taps into the usual saiyan anger that gives him a power boost, but doesn’t do much for him because not only is Jiren stronger than him, he has more technique than him. Hence why Jiren specifies that his master is the one that taught him, implying he is stronger because he had someone to train him.

To push that point further. Goku goes into UI not through anger, but through empathy. Not only for 17s sacrifice, but also his desire to no longer let the people he loves down—unlike his anime counterpart who is a complete fucking asshole, until he’s suddenly not—and that’s what allows him to breakthrough. Basically Goku rejects SAIYAN PRIIIIIIDE and embraces his human nature—and this is what makes him stronger.

TLDR: Vegetas power up in the manga has narrative significance here, where as Royals Blue is fanservice nonsense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Darkseid » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:47 am

Analytical Delusion wrote: • One thing I liked about the anime is how at the end of each episode, we'd get a reminder of how much time was remaining in the TOP. We haven't gotten that in the manga sadly.
Wasn´t there a panel where Freeza glances at the pole in the center of the stage? If I remember correctly there were only two "marks" left which I took to mean 10 minutes till the Tournament is over. Would also fit with there being only two capters left as each chapter displays around five minutes of realtime.



Overall I like this chapter more than previous ones but the Tournament Arc continues to be mediocre. Not extremly bad but also nothing really special. I really hope Toyotaro brings his A game for the finale battle. As it stands right now I would give the entire Arc a 6 out of 10 (for comparison I rate the Future Trunks Arc at an 8 while the Universe 6 would be a 7)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:04 am

kemuri07 wrote: Pretty sure I did. Essentially Royal Blue is in line with Trunks SSJRage in that it’s sole purpose is to give a fan-favorite character an edge so he can appear badass for a couple of minutes.

That’s not what’s happening here. It’s Vegeta being Vegeta and going right into the whole Saiyan pride bit. However, what makes this different is that it feeds right into the themes that Toyotaro is exploring within this arc. Look at the difference between Vegeta’s outburst and Goku calmly sliding into UI. There’s a point being made here. Vegeta taps into the usual saiyan anger that gives him a power boost, but doesn’t do much for him because not only is Jiren stronger than him, he has more technique than him. Hence why Jiren specifies that his master is the one that taught him, implying he is stronger because he had someone to train him.

To push that point further. Goku goes into UI not through anger, but through empathy. Not only for 17s sacrifice, but also his desire to no longer let the people he loves down—unlike his anime counterpart who is a complete fucking asshole, until he’s suddenly not—and that’s what allows him to breakthrough. Basically Goku rejects SAIYAN PRIIIIIIDE and embraces his human nature—and this is what makes him stronger.

TLDR: Vegetas power up in the manga has narrative significance here, where as Royals Blue is fanservice nonsense.
But Vegeta's power up in the anime does feed into the themes of the arc as well as his own character, much more so because of the specific fight it's achieved in. So does Goku going Ultra Instict.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:22 am

Kanassa wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: Pretty sure I did. Essentially Royal Blue is in line with Trunks SSJRage in that it’s sole purpose is to give a fan-favorite character an edge so he can appear badass for a couple of minutes.

That’s not what’s happening here. It’s Vegeta being Vegeta and going right into the whole Saiyan pride bit. However, what makes this different is that it feeds right into the themes that Toyotaro is exploring within this arc. Look at the difference between Vegeta’s outburst and Goku calmly sliding into UI. There’s a point being made here. Vegeta taps into the usual saiyan anger that gives him a power boost, but doesn’t do much for him because not only is Jiren stronger than him, he has more technique than him. Hence why Jiren specifies that his master is the one that taught him, implying he is stronger because he had someone to train him.

To push that point further. Goku goes into UI not through anger, but through empathy. Not only for 17s sacrifice, but also his desire to no longer let the people he loves down—unlike his anime counterpart who is a complete fucking asshole, until he’s suddenly not—and that’s what allows him to breakthrough. Basically Goku rejects SAIYAN PRIIIIIIDE and embraces his human nature—and this is what makes him stronger.

TLDR: Vegetas power up in the manga has narrative significance here, where as Royals Blue is fanservice nonsense.
But Vegeta's power up in the anime does feed into the themes of the arc as well as his own character, much more so because of the specific fight it's achieved in. So does Goku going Ultra Instict.
Except no not really. Because this is where we have to talk about execution, and one of the things that Super does so, so poorly is execute on any of its themes. This is what I mean when I say Super(anime) often sacrifices narrative cohesion for the sake of spectacle. Yeah, I get that DB is about monkey men that can transform and shoot fireballs and whatever, but again, Toriyama did the work to make those moments count rather than just have it happen for the sake of having a cool action scene. That's how you make a good story.

Basically having a character launch into a monologue about how he's doing it for FAMILY--because gee fucking whiz, it's not like we haven't gotten that before--is not the same as using character development in order to explore different themes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:24 am

Kanassa wrote:The scene itself has a really weird characterization of Vegeta, who powers up out of petty jealousy (Great to know Vegeta is still stuck) and rants how he always puts everything on the line and that everyone else doesn't? The fuck? I know Vegeta is arrogant a lot, but this just seems out of nowhere
Yeah he's really out-of-character here. He's pretty much saying "Fuck you Whis, you're useless" and "Fuck all of you too, I'm better than everybody here", which hasn't been Vegeta behavior since the Cell arc. Worst part is that the manga basically assures Vegeta that his attitude is correct by powering him up through his childish tantrum.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:27 am

Doctor. wrote:
Kanassa wrote:The scene itself has a really weird characterization of Vegeta, who powers up out of petty jealousy (Great to know Vegeta is still stuck) and rants how he always puts everything on the line and that everyone else doesn't? The fuck? I know Vegeta is arrogant a lot, but this just seems out of nowhere
Yeah he's really out-of-character here. He's pretty much saying "Fuck you Whis, you're useless" and "Fuck all of you too, I'm better than everybody here", which hasn't been Vegeta behavior since the Cell arc. Worst part is that the manga basically assures Vegeta that his attitude is correct by powering him up through his childish tantrum.
So....we're just gonna forget his whole "ooopsy I'mma murder a whole bunch of people to get back at kakkarot" moment during the buu saga then?

And are we also going forget that immediately after he powers up he gets smacked down by Jiren? I mean, come on I don't think you need your hands held to see that Vegeta was in the wrong here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:30 am

kemuri07 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Kanassa wrote:The scene itself has a really weird characterization of Vegeta, who powers up out of petty jealousy (Great to know Vegeta is still stuck) and rants how he always puts everything on the line and that everyone else doesn't? The fuck? I know Vegeta is arrogant a lot, but this just seems out of nowhere
Yeah he's really out-of-character here. He's pretty much saying "Fuck you Whis, you're useless" and "Fuck all of you too, I'm better than everybody here", which hasn't been Vegeta behavior since the Cell arc. Worst part is that the manga basically assures Vegeta that his attitude is correct by powering him up through his childish tantrum.
So....we're just gonna forget his whole "ooopsy I'mma murder a whole bunch of people to get back at kakkarot" moment during the buu saga then?

And are we also going forget that immediately after he powers up he gets smacked down by Jiren? I mean, come on I don't think you need your hands held to see that Vegeta was in the wrong here.
Fine, it's not typical Vegeta behavior since the end of the Boo arc. Point being, he grew past this a long time ago.

He still got an arbitrary power-up for no reason in the first place. So obviously he was vindicated in some way. Even Whis confirms that he was right in his way of thinking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:43 am

Doctor. wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Yeah he's really out-of-character here. He's pretty much saying "Fuck you Whis, you're useless" and "Fuck all of you too, I'm better than everybody here", which hasn't been Vegeta behavior since the Cell arc. Worst part is that the manga basically assures Vegeta that his attitude is correct by powering him up through his childish tantrum.
So....we're just gonna forget his whole "ooopsy I'mma murder a whole bunch of people to get back at kakkarot" moment during the buu saga then?

And are we also going forget that immediately after he powers up he gets smacked down by Jiren? I mean, come on I don't think you need your hands held to see that Vegeta was in the wrong here.
Fine, it's not typical Vegeta behavior since the end of the Boo arc. Point being, he grew past this a long time ago.

He still got an arbitrary power-up for no reason in the first place. So obviously he was vindicated in some way. Even Whis confirms that he was right in his way of thinking.

Again, not really.
1. Whis only agrees that finding a different style might have been the right choice. He only agrees that copying Goku's UI wouldn't have worked for Vegeta But that doesn't suggest that Whis agrees with Vegeta's temper tantrum.
2. And even if Whis did agree with all of Vegeta's nonsense, it doesn't matter because the story, and ultimately Toyotaro himself, views Vegeta's reluctance to break away from his SAIYAAAAAN PRIIIIIIDE as the wrong choice. Because, again, he immediately gets smacked down by Jiren. Contrast this to Goku's transformation to UI. He doesn't get angry, he doesn't go on a temper tantrum or decide to go all out, he calmly lets all that shit go. Instead of being a selfish twit like Vegeta, he proclaims that he wants to get stronger for the people he cares about.

THIS IS GOKU BECOMING A BETTER PERSON INSTEAD OF THAT ASSHOLE IN THE ANIME WHO DOES SHIT FOR HIMSELF REGARDLESS OF WHO GETS HURT IN THE PROCESS.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:27 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: Pretty sure I did. Essentially Royal Blue is in line with Trunks SSJRage in that it’s sole purpose is to give a fan-favorite character an edge so he can appear badass for a couple of minutes.

That’s not what’s happening here. It’s Vegeta being Vegeta and going right into the whole Saiyan pride bit. However, what makes this different is that it feeds right into the themes that Toyotaro is exploring within this arc. Look at the difference between Vegeta’s outburst and Goku calmly sliding into UI. There’s a point being made here. Vegeta taps into the usual saiyan anger that gives him a power boost, but doesn’t do much for him because not only is Jiren stronger than him, he has more technique than him. Hence why Jiren specifies that his master is the one that taught him, implying he is stronger because he had someone to train him.

To push that point further. Goku goes into UI not through anger, but through empathy. Not only for 17s sacrifice, but also his desire to no longer let the people he loves down—unlike his anime counterpart who is a complete fucking asshole, until he’s suddenly not—and that’s what allows him to breakthrough. Basically Goku rejects SAIYAN PRIIIIIIDE and embraces his human nature—and this is what makes him stronger.

TLDR: Vegetas power up in the manga has narrative significance here, where as Royals Blue is fanservice nonsense.
But Vegeta's power up in the anime does feed into the themes of the arc as well as his own character, much more so because of the specific fight it's achieved in. So does Goku going Ultra Instict.
Except no not really. Because this is where we have to talk about execution, and one of the things that Super does so, so poorly is execute on any of its themes. This is what I mean when I say Super(anime) often sacrifices narrative cohesion for the sake of spectacle. Yeah, I get that DB is about monkey men that can transform and shoot fireballs and whatever, but again, Toriyama did the work to make those moments count rather than just have it happen for the sake of having a cool action scene. That's how you make a good story
I thought you were defending the manga here, not the anime.
Basically having a character launch into a monologue about how he's doing it for FAMILY--because gee fucking whiz, it's not like we haven't gotten that before--is not the same as using character development in order to explore different themes.
You could say almost the same thing about the manga moment you're talking about, just replace family with saiyan pride.

Plus, Vegeta's transformation isn't just 'muh family' and family isn't really the root of what the scene or that fight was about, it's simply the most obvious showing of how Vegeta is both opposed and slightly paralleled to Toppo. He monologues about the theme of their fight, about sacrifice and attachments because the fight concerns both characters on more than just the level of 'Who is stronger?'. Vegeta transformation (Which, again, I don't like the transformation and think it really should have just been Vegeta powering up a bit) is the apex of the fight, tieing into Vegeta's growth as a character, his rejection of his biggest regret (Toppo is a Majin Vegeta parallel), his rejection of Toppo's conclusion that they should cast aside everything 'unnecessary', a further point in Toppo's character arc and point about the underlying themes of the arc and Dragon Ball in general as well as making way for how the themes would be explored more in the coming fight with Jiren. The point about attachments is a very important thing in the grand scheme of Dragon Ball because the character's attachment, good or bad attachments, to others is ultimately what gets them this far and what ultimately allows them to win the tournament.

Boiling it down to 'Vegeta loves his family' is being very disingenuous.

The manga in this instance is continuing what the last chapter did of retroactively changing characters to suit the point it wants to make without thinking of how it flows or if it actually fits the character, damaging the characters while backtracking instead of expanding upon them.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


Obligitory Fan Fic Plug: Dragon Ball - Another Road
Kanassa wrote:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:43 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote: • One thing I liked about the anime is how at the end of each episode, we'd get a reminder of how much time was remaining in the TOP. We haven't gotten that in the manga sadly.
We had reminders one in a while , and in this last one we had this :
I guess we can assume 8-9 min remind , that scene was close to the end of the chapter .
Previous chapter we had a 15 min reminder around the beginning of the chapter of so ...
So looks like time is passing slower in this last two chapters , instead of 5 min per chapter we are having 3-4 ...
2 more chapters seems a safe bet to end this tournament
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:56 pm

You could say almost the same thing about the manga moment you're talking about, just replace family with saiyan pride.
Except not really because not only has that been a core part of Vegeta, for better or worse, but has also been the core concept of Super at large. That many of the events in this series gets started out of both Goku's and Vegeta's desire to become stronger. If This tournament arc is meant to be the final, then the events in the last couple of chapters is a complete rejection of the Saiyan mindset: That in order to become stronger, you need to push yourself, you need to let your emotions get the better, that you can use your Saiyan hax powers to get over everything. Basically Toyotaro has been building towards this moment at least during this arc and I like it's willing to be more complicated than just simply giving Vegeta a win cause he's a main character.

And those are nice words, but honestly, I think you thought more about Super(anime)'s plot than the actual writers did. How you character development isn't you have a character scream out his ideals, you include small character moments throughout the arc laying the foundation for those big moments so that they actually matter. You might have had a point if the show made a big deal about Vegeta, who now waiting for the birth of his daughter, is forced to fight in a tournament in which EVERYONE HE LOVES WILL BE OBLITERATED. That could have been an interesting play on the Goku/Vegeta rivalry, with Vegeta being the more heroic of the two because he's actually fighting for people he cares about and Goku being more of the villain who is fighting for his own selfish desires. But nah, Super ain't interested in that at all. As if anyone cares about what's going on beyond waiting for Goku to get his new Saiyan transformaton. Instead it comes off as Toei needing to drag the shit out of the arc so they decided on Toppo becoming a God of Destruction cause it'd look cool and shit and then Vegeta turning into Royal Blue so he can beat him. Because, shit, ya gotta sell those toys somehow right?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Vegeta

The fact that Vegeta talks about the differences in how he and the Dragon Team came to power is something I've always thought about, but has never been so overtly addressed in the series. I don't think it's perfect, but I much prefer it to the "My Cabba" nonsense the anime gave us. Yes, Vegeta has changed a lot since the Cell arc, but that doesn't mean he can't retain what makes him unique to begin with. Blatantly saying that Migatte no Gokui doesn't suit him feels right, and that he prefers to build himself up through his own methods does too. I think it's very strange that fans feel like he's telling Whis to go fuck himself...Whis sure doesn't seem to feel that way. He gets it. Dragon Ball characters get each other, which is something that some fans seem to forget (but we'll get to No. 17's sacrifice in a sec).

Even so, that doesn't change the fact that I don't like that Vegeta evolved Blue in such a meaningless way. It's not creative like it was in the Future Trunks arc. I think it would have been perfectly fine to let him fall behind a bit more in this arc. That being said, this seems to have been a part of the larger ToP outline (be it due to a decision by Toriyama or Toei), so adding something like this was likely required. At least it wasn't as offensive looking as the anime's take.

Jiren

Terse, but not shallow. Stoic, but not boring. Jiren is the best example Dragon Ball has of a character that speaks in Laconic phrase, and that's executed quite well in the manga. I really like the line "Observe from the bench, you two." It's not a cruel statement, but it's still a harsh reality. They're just distractions at this point, but Jiren assures them that he'll be able to handle it.

Freeza

It's always great to see Freeza do what he does best. He feels very balanced here.

No. 17's farewell

We know that this is just a fakeout, which I'm not okay with, but I've already accepted it. That being said, there's some good stuff here.

It really blew my mind that people took issue to No. 18's reaction to the ordeal. Would you really have preferred crying and screaming? If so, why are you even interested in Dragon Ball? This interaction is handled in a way that feels honest to these characters. After the Cell arc, No. 17 and 18 parted ways. They don't hate each other, but they're independent. Just because they were introduced together, that doesn't mean that they need to be attached at the hip. They have their own needs. They UNDERSTAND each other. No. 17 says that he's going to sacrifice himself, so No. 18 accepts it. She knows he's going to do what he wants regardless. She knows it's the right thing to do, and it might be the only way. There's no point in crying about it. That's what makes the duo distinct. It's not that she doesn't care about him - she readily accepts the responsibility of taking care of his family - but it's just not in her nature to be overly dramatic about it. She trusts that he's doing the right thing for himself.

Addressing nitpicks

I've seen people complain about Goku teleportation Vegeta to safety. That honestly made me laugh. Goku teleport in reference to a ki source. He has control over where he goes. It's not as if he teleported Vegeta away to a desolate planet. Find something real to be upset about.

As for Goku "activating" Migatte no Gokui, I think that's perfectly fine. It is something that CAN be activated once you have mastery over it, and it seems to be something that Goku is openly displaying the right mentality for.

Overall

The outline is what it is. I don't love this part of the Tournament of Power, and while it's still better than the anime, underlying problems effect both versions. The shit analogy that users here have been bringing up rings true to me. There are a few things in this chapter I could do without, but I really appreciate the things that work.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:02 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: So....we're just gonna forget his whole "ooopsy I'mma murder a whole bunch of people to get back at kakkarot" moment during the buu saga then?

And are we also going forget that immediately after he powers up he gets smacked down by Jiren? I mean, come on I don't think you need your hands held to see that Vegeta was in the wrong here.
Fine, it's not typical Vegeta behavior since the end of the Boo arc. Point being, he grew past this a long time ago.

He still got an arbitrary power-up for no reason in the first place. So obviously he was vindicated in some way. Even Whis confirms that he was right in his way of thinking.

Again, not really.
1. Whis only agrees that finding a different style might have been the right choice. He only agrees that copying Goku's UI wouldn't have worked for Vegeta But that doesn't suggest that Whis agrees with Vegeta's temper tantrum.
2. And even if Whis did agree with all of Vegeta's nonsense, it doesn't matter because the story, and ultimately Toyotaro himself, views Vegeta's reluctance to break away from his SAIYAAAAAN PRIIIIIIDE as the wrong choice. Because, again, he immediately gets smacked down by Jiren. Contrast this to Goku's transformation to UI. He doesn't get angry, he doesn't go on a temper tantrum or decide to go all out, he calmly lets all that shit go. Instead of being a selfish twit like Vegeta, he proclaims that he wants to get stronger for the people he cares about.

THIS IS GOKU BECOMING A BETTER PERSON INSTEAD OF THAT ASSHOLE IN THE ANIME WHO DOES SHIT FOR HIMSELF REGARDLESS OF WHO GETS HURT IN THE PROCESS.

So you are basically saying the manga sacrificed Vegeta’s characterization to make Goku look better. Sorry but that’s not good writing.

And Saiyan Pride was always Vegeta’s thing. It was never really Goku. So Goku rejecting his Saiyan Power and Vegeta not doesn’t really work thematically. I don’t really think that was what Toyotaro was going for. But whatever he was going for wasn’t developed properly in these rushed manga chapters


Anyways I agree with @Kanassa I’ll take Vegeta fighting for his family and keeping a promise to Cabba any day over this. He still wasn’t the ultimate winner but at least it was shown he was fighting for the right reasons. And he held onto his Pride by not giving up against Jiren even when he had no chance of winning. To me that is staying true to the character without making him look bad (not that there weren’t scene in the anime that also were badly written for Vegeta like the not giving his energy scene )



I do like the theory on here that Toyotaro was trying to take Goku, Gohan and Vegeta down different paths not saying one is better than the others. And if that is how the manga develops I may like it. I just don’t think it was developed well in this chapter at all. And I just hope Toyotaro writes a better Vegeta before he is knocked out.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:07 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
You could say almost the same thing about the manga moment you're talking about, just replace family with saiyan pride.
Except not really because not only has that been a core part of Vegeta, for better or worse, but has also been the core concept of Super at large. That many of the events in this series gets started out of both Goku's and Vegeta's desire to become stronger. If This tournament arc is meant to be the final, then the events in the last couple of chapters is a complete rejection of the Saiyan mindset: That in order to become stronger, you need to push yourself, you need to let your emotions get the better, that you can use your Saiyan hax powers to get over everything. Basically Toyotaro has been building towards this moment at least during this arc and I like it's willing to be more complicated than just simply giving Vegeta a win cause he's a main character.
Except, not really. While Pride has been a core part of Vegeta, it is presenting it in a forced out of character manner to push a certain point. Going back to Cell Saga Vegeta. Having Vegeta go on about having no master and that the Z-Fighters and Jiren never put everything on the line is a betrayal of character and his pride.

And again, you're being disingenuous to the Anime. It HAS been building up to these moments, these are attached to the core concept of Super and Dragon Ball in general while expanding upon Vegeta's character (As well as Toppo's and the cast in general), the points they're making have been built up in small character moments and even the part I'm talking about is making way for the theme of the arc. Vegeta and Toppo's ideological clash is built up with the small moments of how Vegeta and Toppo interact with their teammates, the promises they make and the ways they fail. The win isn't given to Vegeta because he's the main character, he's given the win because he shows Toppo the flaws of his thinking and the value of those things Toppo deemed unneeded. Which Toppo continues to think about as the fight with Jiren rages on.
And those are nice words, but honestly, I think you thought more about Super(anime)'s plot than the actual writers did. How you character development isn't you have a character scream out his ideals, you include small character moments throughout the arc laying the foundation for those big moments so that they actually matter. You might have had a point if the show made a big deal about Vegeta, who now waiting for the birth of his daughter, is forced to fight in a tournament in which EVERYONE HE LOVES WILL BE OBLITERATED. That could have been an interesting play on the Goku/Vegeta rivalry, with Vegeta being the more heroic of the two because he's actually fighting for people he cares about and Goku being more of the villain who is fighting for his own selfish desires.
Ignoring that you are arguing about something the manga doesn't do either, the development and character shown is more than just the two screaming their ideals. Again, they had all these small character moments, Vegeta had them even before this arc. They are given a foundation because it's all building up to that moment where Jiren acknowledges Universe 7's 'trust' and his own attachment to his team. And the show not having that specific dynamic doesn't hurt my point, because the point about attachments isn't Vegeta specific nor requires that he be this big hero, it's for the whole team and how they interact with one another. Vegeta's moment is connected to the overall theme but is not the focus of the theme, just of the scene.

I can see what Toyo's trying to do, it's just he really botches how to make that work.
But nah, Super ain't interested in that at all. As if anyone cares about what's going on beyond waiting for Goku to get his new Saiyan transformaton. Instead it comes off as Toei needing to drag the shit out of the arc so they decided on Toppo becoming a God of Destruction cause it'd look cool and shit and then Vegeta turning into Royal Blue so he can beat him. Because, shit, ya gotta sell those toys somehow right?
Super not showing off this specific dynamic you want does not make it not interested in making more than cool looking fights. Anime Super has put effort into making things more than just cool fights, giving characters arcs, giving depth, putting the foundation to the fights, giving emotional weight and celebrating the source material. If they weren't interested in that, Trunks wouldn't have had so many scenes focused solely on developing his emotional state and character through the Black Arc.

And going with the old 'The soulless corporation just wants to make money with no artistic merit' bullshit doesn't help either, especially when those things apparently made just to be sold aren't really marketed much or anything like that. Yes, tehy want to make money off of this, but they still put effort into making it a story.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:50 pm

Kanassa wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:But nah, Super ain't interested in that at all. As if anyone cares about what's going on beyond waiting for Goku to get his new Saiyan transformaton. Instead it comes off as Toei needing to drag the shit out of the arc so they decided on Toppo becoming a God of Destruction cause it'd look cool and shit and then Vegeta turning into Royal Blue so he can beat him. Because, shit, ya gotta sell those toys somehow right?
And going with the old 'The soulless corporation just wants to make money with no artistic merit' bullshit doesn't help either, especially when those things apparently made just to be sold aren't really marketed much or anything like that. Yes, tehy want to make money off of this, but they still put effort into making it a story.
Ugh I really wish the term of "DBS is only there to sell toys" just die already when the new forms themselves barely get merchandise.
    Is just a lame way to bash at some of the decision Super made.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:15 pm

    The people saying that Vegeta told Whis to go fuck himself aren't just alarmingly misconstruing what he actually said, they're also fundamentally misunderstanding his entire character.

    Vegeta isn't Goku, and there isn't a single thing in the entirety of Super's run that suggests Vegeta's decision to train under Whis represented any kind of internal development on his behalf. At best, he was more than likely extremely reluctant to do so in the first place, begrudgingly biting the bullet for an opportunity to catch up to his rival. His frustration at the thought of Goku surpassing him was, is, and always will be an integral part of Vegeta's identity; he'd be a pretty fucking boring character without it. Here he's realizing that training under a martial arts master isn't an approach that personally suits him, a claim that Whis readily agrees with.

    It's laughable that people would even entertain the idea of Vegeta's "epiphany" being Cell arc regression when his entire spiel in this chapter describes the same damn character we've been exposed to throughout every single arc of DBS. Cell arc Vegeta was an obnoxious asshole who barely even gave a shit about his own family, Universe Survival arc Vegeta is a man simply coming to terms with the fact that he prefers to train alone.

    Jeez.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:33 pm

    The gr wrote:
    Kanassa wrote:
    kemuri07 wrote:But nah, Super ain't interested in that at all. As if anyone cares about what's going on beyond waiting for Goku to get his new Saiyan transformaton. Instead it comes off as Toei needing to drag the shit out of the arc so they decided on Toppo becoming a God of Destruction cause it'd look cool and shit and then Vegeta turning into Royal Blue so he can beat him. Because, shit, ya gotta sell those toys somehow right?
    And going with the old 'The soulless corporation just wants to make money with no artistic merit' bullshit doesn't help either, especially when those things apparently made just to be sold aren't really marketed much or anything like that. Yes, tehy want to make money off of this, but they still put effort into making it a story.
    Ugh I really wish the term of "DBS is only there to sell toys" just die already when the new forms themselves barely get merchandise.
      Is just a lame way to bash at some of the decision Super made.
      I mean there are plenty of ways that I can bash the anime, I just choose that one because Super is a cynically produced garbage made for people who just want fanservice.
      Kanassa wrote:
      kemuri07 wrote:
      You could say almost the same thing about the manga moment you're talking about, just replace family with saiyan pride.
      Except not really because not only has that been a core part of Vegeta, for better or worse, but has also been the core concept of Super at large. That many of the events in this series gets started out of both Goku's and Vegeta's desire to become stronger. If This tournament arc is meant to be the final, then the events in the last couple of chapters is a complete rejection of the Saiyan mindset: That in order to become stronger, you need to push yourself, you need to let your emotions get the better, that you can use your Saiyan hax powers to get over everything. Basically Toyotaro has been building towards this moment at least during this arc and I like it's willing to be more complicated than just simply giving Vegeta a win cause he's a main character.
      Except, not really. While Pride has been a core part of Vegeta, it is presenting it in a forced out of character manner to push a certain point. Going back to Cell Saga Vegeta. Having Vegeta go on about having no master and that the Z-Fighters and Jiren never put everything on the line is a betrayal of character and his pride.

      A.
      Umm what? You wanna try and explain that one to me? Because I'm pretty sure Vegeta, yet again displaying that because of his saiyan pride he's always been self-efficient and don't need no master is exactly in line with the kind of character he's always been. So I'm not really sure how it's "out of character." Because it sounds like some of you honestly believe that Vegeta should have had all his issues dealt with post-Buu. It's called a character flaw, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. I honestly just get the impression that some of you are offended at the mere prospect of the manga showing Vegeta (or any character for that manner considering how so many people here complain about characters not getting respected) in a negative light.


      gnoring that you are arguing about something the manga doesn't do either, the development and character shown is more than just the two screaming their ideals. Again, they had all these small character moments, Vegeta had them even before this arc. They are given a foundation because it's all building up to that moment where Jiren acknowledges Universe 7's 'trust' and his own attachment to his team. And the show not having that specific dynamic doesn't hurt my point, because the point about attachments isn't Vegeta specific nor requires that he be this big hero, it's for the whole team and how they interact with one another. Vegeta's moment is connected to the overall theme but is not the focus of the theme, just of the scene.
      But I'm talking specifically about Toppo and Vegeta. ON PAPER, the idea of Vegeta taking offense to Toppo giving into becoming a God of destructive is a sound idea and one that could display Vegeta's growth as a character since his introduction. EXCEPT, throughout the arc he's pretty much acting like good ole Vegeta, immediately separating from the group, and constantly telling Goku that he doesn't have to listen to him. I don't need Vegeta's character development to take up the entirety of the anime, but I do need it to be executed well enough that I actually give a crap about what's going on. Because I didnt' care at all about Vegeta's "emotional arc" in Super, I saw through his transformation as a hollow attempt to prolong a fight that didn't need to go on longer than it do. I mean contrast that moment to the "Even for you, Kakarot" speech during the Buu saga. That's building from years and years of character development throughout DBZ. I cared because it was Vegeta finally admitting that he did give a shit and he did have someone to fight for other than himself.

      Basically, like most of Super, DBZ just did it better.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:38 pm

      Marlowe89 wrote:The people saying that Vegeta told Whis to go fuck himself aren't just alarmingly misconstruing what he actually said, they're also fundamentally misunderstanding his entire character.

      Vegeta isn't Goku, and there isn't a single thing in the entirety of Super's run that suggests Vegeta's decision to train under Whis represented any kind of internal development on his behalf. At best, he was more than likely extremely reluctant to do so in the first place, begrudgingly biting the bullet for an opportunity to catch up to his rival. His frustration at the thought of Goku surpassing him was, is, and always will be an integral part of Vegeta's identity; he'd be a pretty fucking boring character without it. Here he's realizing that training under a martial arts master isn't an approach that personally suits him, a claim that Whis readily agrees with.

      It's laughable that people would even entertain the idea of Vegeta's "epiphany" being Cell arc regression when his entire spiel in this chapter describes the same damn character we've been exposed to throughout every single arc of DBS. Cell arc Vegeta was an obnoxious asshole who barely even gave a shit about his own family, Universe Survival arc Vegeta is a man simply coming to terms with the fact that he prefers to train alone.

      Jeez.
      This guy...this guy fucks.

      Though, I will argue against some of your points. Largely because I think the takeaway isn't that Vegeta doesn't need a master, or rather, discipline; in fact I'd suggest he's weaken without them.

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