supersaiyanZero wrote:I thought it was very in line with his character, and in no way a regression to his Cell-era self. He's always been a lone wolf, so while there might be benefits with training with somebody like Whis, it simply doesn't suit him personally. It's not like he told Whis to go fuck himself.
He literally just got angry that Goku had surpassed him, and he powered up ang got a new form. That is very Cell-era esque.
Now, addressing specifically what you are talking to as far as his solo speech, it isn't necessarily a regression to his Cell-era self but it is still a regression. Him taking tutelage from Whis was a progression of the character. I don't think the manga depicted it, but in the anime he gets on one knee and begs Whis to train him. That's progression. He had the gall to swallow his pride to do something in his best interest. His pride didn't consume him and he was able to put it aside for a moment in order to be productive. Then he learned from Whis and now he owes this insane amount of strength he has to Whis. Like his current strength is 110% a product of training with Whis and he never would have reached this level. Then he goes on and on about forging in the fire of solo training or some crap like that. That IS telling Whis to go fuck himself and it contradicts what is established. It's pathetically nonsensical for Vegeta to take on a master for the first time in his life, gain training from them and reach new heights, and then give a huge speech about how he takes help from nobody and he did all of this solo.
And the notion that anything less than completely disregarding and throwing away his rivalry with Goku is somehow "character regression" or "out of character because he is a family man now" is the single, most dumbest argument I've ever heard and shows a complete lack of understanding of not only the character himself but also of his relationship with Goku.
No shit. That is a common notion that is irrational but nobody here is saying that. A lot of Vegeta's development comes down to him going away from the extent to which he is obsessed with his rivalry with Goku to the point of being a healthy competition rather than a rivalry that his entire life revolves around. His life use to literally be completely defined by his rivalry with Goku and his thirst for surpassing him. The later in the series we get, the less attached he is to that notion and the main focus of his motivations is supposed to shift from "I'm going to be strong enough to protect my family" rather than "I'm gonna beat Kakarot!" Now this transition in the anime was represented as Vegeta achieving his new transformation and matching Goku's SSBKK. For him to be mad that Goku surpassed him and then power-up COMPLETELY misses the point of his development. In the anime, Goku powers up to Kaioken and where old Vegeta would get mad that Goku is above him and has surpassed him, he doesn't say a damn word about it and it doesn't even bother him and he is instead concerned with saving his family and the Saiyan race from Universe 6.
Although I don't necessarily like the way it was handled in the Buu arc, the premise of his speech at the end of the Buu arc was that he was going to be at peace with this rivalry and he got further away from it defining him as a person. The point of the development was that now it would be a healthy rivalry rather than an unhealthy obsession. Now, we are going backwards and he is going back to whining about Goku surpassing him and he actually BENEFITS from it. One thing that has always stayed consistent is that it has never benefited him to obsess about Goku. So then why didn't Vegeta get a huge power-up when Goku surpassed him on the Lookout? Why didn't he get a huge power-up when Vegeta found out he had been surpassed because Goku had SSJ3? This just contradicts a slew of events. Toyotaro just shows how incompetent he is yet again.
This is about as clear of an example of character regression as it can possibly get, and in more ways than one. To deny this is character regression just comes off as being a manga apologist.
I also think that lot of the frustrations surrounding the ToP whether it be manga or anime comes down to the fact that it is a very poorly written and very poorly structured arc no matter what medium. Toyo is doing the best he can with the mess he's inherited
So Toyotaro's shitty writing isn't even his own fault? Right.