"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:14 am

kemuri07 wrote: Though, I will argue against some of your points. Largely because I think the takeaway isn't that Vegeta doesn't need a master, or rather, discipline; in fact I'd suggest he's weaken without them.
The takeaway is that Vegeta doesn't feel like someone else's tutelage befits his style. That's totally fair. He's more comfortable playing by his own rules, even if it inevitably isn't going to get him as far as Goku.
Noah wrote:Has anyone mentioned how inconsisted is Jiren character on this manga? At first he seems like a Superman, a guy who cares about his world and the living people and a few chapters after he starts acting like his anime counterpart, being an douche and not caring about anyone else.
Speed reading is bad, mkay?

The entire point of Jiren's introduction in Chapter 30 is that he's this supposedly perfect superhero completely devoted to justice, yet there's a wish even he's willing to abandon his convictions for a chance at having come true. He also doesn't rely on anyone's assistance. He serves as a foil to Goku, a character with selfish motivations but more benevolent undertones. The manga isn't making him out to be a goody-two-shoes and then suddenly changing his character, it's giving you both sides of his personality to effectively demonstrate that crucial contrast/mirroring between the protagonist and antagonist.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:36 am

I think to me, the biggest problem with the Toppo/Dyspo elimination, is that it was already a story beat we had seen previously where Jiren outright refused to help his team mates against Kefla, so we didn't really gain any new information or insight into Jiren's character like we probably should have.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinMan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:20 am

How did the manga make Vegeta worse than he was in the anime? How?

“Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:12 am

Well, this chapter was better than last months. But still a mixed bag. Jiren was acting like a straight douche knocking out Toppo and Dyspo. Those two amounted to nothing in the end.

Did Vegeta get SSBE? Beerus made a comment that "his aura completely changed" but still looks the same as he did in Blue

And Goku just popped back into UI...alright then. I like it better that he has to be brought to his limit in order to tap into it but I guess this what the manga is doing with it.

Still fairly meh and rushed overall. But better than last month

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:31 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote:Did Vegeta get SSBE? Beerus made a comment that "his aura completely changed" but still looks the same as he did in Blue
Something definitely happened to Vegeta, he got a new aura and powered up, but Blue Evolution it is not. There's too many differences between Blue and Blue Evolution (as it was in the anime) for this powerup to be the same thing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:22 pm

I also don't think that is the SSJ Evolution of Vegeta. The aura does look different. It kinda looks like he's on fire. I'll call it ''SSJ Blue Fire'' :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:52 pm

Here I’m glad vegeta showed that essence that make me like him , no matter if he gets the L , I’m done too with him following goku steps and I hope ( after broly movie ) he will part ways with goku , separate adventures not involving those two characters together are needed , with all this many universes it should be easy and this franchise should evolve and take risks , the enemy coming and goku+vegeta coming to save the day it’s wearing too much this series .
Vegeta being a “my cabba guy “ or a Krillin “goku save us” is exactly how I don’t want him to end , it’s possible that next manga chapter he will do the “ goku save us “ but I hope in the future they will change it , it’s stinking, I rather him to disappear for a couple of arcs and came back with new stuff or to have his own adventures .
Either that or the step aside to the new generations , not fan of that and could be a bigger risk .
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:18 pm

JazzMazz wrote:I think to me, the biggest problem with the Toppo/Dyspo elimination, is that it was already a story beat we had seen previously where Jiren outright refused to help his team mates against Kefla, so we didn't really gain any new information or insight into Jiren's character like we probably should have.
That's not true at all. When Jiren says, "unnecessary," his teammates were already knocked off. This left ambiguity as to what Jiren meant by that word. This is a similar situation meant to fully flesh out what we got a few chapters prior.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:05 pm

MajinMan wrote: “Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Yeah I completely agree. They butchered his character pretty hard.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:
MajinMan wrote: “Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Yeah I completely agree. They butchered his character pretty hard.
Ok , so tell me guys your idea about how vegeta should be
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:04 am

prince212 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
MajinMan wrote: “Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Yeah I completely agree. They butchered his character pretty hard.
Ok , so tell me guys your idea about how vegeta should be
Someone who respects the efforts of those around him, and recognizes his own limitations and inferiority without being complacent? He can still be a prideful person, without being an absolute jackass to people his known and grown to appreciate for over a decade.

>Will get back to Bergamo's post soon.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:47 am

After thinking about this and reading the comments here and the other places, I have to agree that Vegeta was indeed character assassinated in this chapter in a similar fashion to Goku and Kefla last week. This is honestly the worst regression of a character Toyo has done. I was never a fan of Toyo's Vegeta, but this is a character step back to how he was presented in the manga version of the Future Trunks Saga. I mean, his entire speech about 'my dick is the biggest here because I trained instead of going to stupid tournaments', sounds like something from Cell Saga Vegeta. I mean, I don't think even early Buu Saga Vegeta would say this crap.

Also, the way Vegeta just threw Whis under the bus that even Whis was '?', makes me wish at the end of the saga that Whis stops training him and throw Vegeta's own words in his face.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:37 am

PFM18 wrote:
MajinMan wrote: “Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Yeah I completely agree. They butchered his character pretty hard.
I thought it was very in line with his character, and in no way a regression to his Cell-era self. He's always been a lone wolf, so while there might be benefits with training with somebody like Whis, it simply doesn't suit him personally. It's not like he told Whis to go fuck himself. I find his dumbass "pride speeches" that come one after the other in the anime much more insufferable and obviously shoehorned in because they have no grasp on the character and they simply just thought "Well, that sounds like something Vegeta would say, so..."

And the notion that anything less than completely disregarding and throwing away his rivalry with Goku is somehow "character regression" or "out of character because he is a family man now" is the single, most dumbest argument I've ever heard and shows a complete lack of understanding of not only the character himself but also of his relationship with Goku. He is still allowed to compare himself to Goku, he's still allowed to think he's better than him, he's still allowed to be pissed off at how easy things seem to come to Goku, and he's still allowed to explore the rivalry between the two. There is still a lot of depth to their rivalry but unfortunately it's not being explored fully by Toyo and most definitely not by Toei.

I also think that lot of the frustrations surrounding the ToP whether it be manga or anime comes down to the fact that it is a very poorly written and very poorly structured arc no matter what medium. Toyo is doing the best he can with the mess he's inherited

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:59 am

I don't know if this has been brought up in the thread yet, but it seems worth mentioning: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1044373619952955392

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:27 am

JazzMazz wrote:
prince212 wrote: Ok , so tell me guys your idea about how vegeta should be
Someone who respects the efforts of those around him, and recognizes his own limitations and inferiority without being complacent? He can still be a prideful person, without being an absolute jackass to people his known and grown to appreciate for over a decade.
That sounds to me like kulilin with hair and nose .
Any other user,s ideas about how vegeta should be ?
BlueBasilisk wrote:I don't know if this has been brought up in the thread yet, but it seems worth mentioning: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1044373619952955392
Wow , thanks , kind of a big difference of translation, I like more that one of herms , and have more sense
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:52 pm

prince212 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Someone who respects the efforts of those around him, and recognizes his own limitations and inferiority without being complacent? He can still be a prideful person, without being an absolute jackass to people his known and grown to appreciate for over a decade.
That sounds to me like kulilin with hair and nose .
Any other user,s ideas about how vegeta should be ?
That'd be more like Piccolo than Krillin. Krillin's very complacent.
BlueBasilisk wrote:I don't know if this has been brought up in the thread yet, but it seems worth mentioning: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1044373619952955392
A much better line. Goku's characterization is my primary concern and it's been pretty dull and off-putting this arc. I threw up my hands when I saw that line as translated by Viz.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:49 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:I thought it was very in line with his character, and in no way a regression to his Cell-era self. He's always been a lone wolf, so while there might be benefits with training with somebody like Whis, it simply doesn't suit him personally. It's not like he told Whis to go fuck himself.
He literally just got angry that Goku had surpassed him, and he powered up ang got a new form. That is very Cell-era esque.

Now, addressing specifically what you are talking to as far as his solo speech, it isn't necessarily a regression to his Cell-era self but it is still a regression. Him taking tutelage from Whis was a progression of the character. I don't think the manga depicted it, but in the anime he gets on one knee and begs Whis to train him. That's progression. He had the gall to swallow his pride to do something in his best interest. His pride didn't consume him and he was able to put it aside for a moment in order to be productive. Then he learned from Whis and now he owes this insane amount of strength he has to Whis. Like his current strength is 110% a product of training with Whis and he never would have reached this level. Then he goes on and on about forging in the fire of solo training or some crap like that. That IS telling Whis to go fuck himself and it contradicts what is established. It's pathetically nonsensical for Vegeta to take on a master for the first time in his life, gain training from them and reach new heights, and then give a huge speech about how he takes help from nobody and he did all of this solo.
And the notion that anything less than completely disregarding and throwing away his rivalry with Goku is somehow "character regression" or "out of character because he is a family man now" is the single, most dumbest argument I've ever heard and shows a complete lack of understanding of not only the character himself but also of his relationship with Goku.
No shit. That is a common notion that is irrational but nobody here is saying that. A lot of Vegeta's development comes down to him going away from the extent to which he is obsessed with his rivalry with Goku to the point of being a healthy competition rather than a rivalry that his entire life revolves around. His life use to literally be completely defined by his rivalry with Goku and his thirst for surpassing him. The later in the series we get, the less attached he is to that notion and the main focus of his motivations is supposed to shift from "I'm going to be strong enough to protect my family" rather than "I'm gonna beat Kakarot!" Now this transition in the anime was represented as Vegeta achieving his new transformation and matching Goku's SSBKK. For him to be mad that Goku surpassed him and then power-up COMPLETELY misses the point of his development. In the anime, Goku powers up to Kaioken and where old Vegeta would get mad that Goku is above him and has surpassed him, he doesn't say a damn word about it and it doesn't even bother him and he is instead concerned with saving his family and the Saiyan race from Universe 6.

Although I don't necessarily like the way it was handled in the Buu arc, the premise of his speech at the end of the Buu arc was that he was going to be at peace with this rivalry and he got further away from it defining him as a person. The point of the development was that now it would be a healthy rivalry rather than an unhealthy obsession. Now, we are going backwards and he is going back to whining about Goku surpassing him and he actually BENEFITS from it. One thing that has always stayed consistent is that it has never benefited him to obsess about Goku. So then why didn't Vegeta get a huge power-up when Goku surpassed him on the Lookout? Why didn't he get a huge power-up when Vegeta found out he had been surpassed because Goku had SSJ3? This just contradicts a slew of events. Toyotaro just shows how incompetent he is yet again.

This is about as clear of an example of character regression as it can possibly get, and in more ways than one. To deny this is character regression just comes off as being a manga apologist.
I also think that lot of the frustrations surrounding the ToP whether it be manga or anime comes down to the fact that it is a very poorly written and very poorly structured arc no matter what medium. Toyo is doing the best he can with the mess he's inherited
So Toyotaro's shitty writing isn't even his own fault? Right.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:54 pm

PFM18 wrote:, but in the anime he gets on one knee and begs Whis to train him. That's progression.
That’s enough .
I respect your opinions .
The vegeta that I enjoy is more about this:
Than this :
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:01 pm

prince212 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:, but in the anime he gets on one knee and begs Whis to train him. That's progression.
That’s enough .
I respect your opinions .
The vegeta that I enjoy is more about this:
Than this :
so you prefer when the characterization is all over the place? The anime gets criticized frequently for the apparent emphasis on the "cool factor" but this is a perfect example of the manga just trying to have a cool moment without considering anything else at all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:05 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Someone who respects the efforts of those around him, and recognizes his own limitations and inferiority without being complacent? He can still be a prideful person, without being an absolute jackass to people his known and grown to appreciate for over a decade.

>Will get back to Bergamo's post soon.
That's not Vegeta though.

There's a reason the updated volume release of the end of Z had Vegeta saying he'd still surpass Kakarot.

The "You're number 1" speech is Vegeta finally accepting Goku as better than him then, and was NOT him giving up on ever surpassing him. That's not Vegeta. Vegeta's problem prior to that was that he could not accept that others were above him because his royal blood means he's the very highest tier of the most powerful race to ever exist. His character development is him letting go of all that baggage.

Here, he says that he has been going about things the wrong way. He's always trained on his own and gotten powerful on his own, with nobody guiding him along. This was him reaffirming what got him to where he was. It's not a problem and is in-keeping with who Vegeta is.

Like, so many people profoundly misunderstand this character. He doesn't care about fighting for the same reasons Goku does. He doesn't care about bettering himself like Goku does. He cares about being the best. Training and fighting are just a means to achieving that end.

If you tell Goku there's nobody else out there as strong as him, Goku would probably spiral into a deep depression. You tell that to Vegeta, and Vegeta will pop champagne, do a music video and then give Bulma another kid because he's so happy about being the best.
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