"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:14 pm

PFM18 wrote:
prince212 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:, but in the anime he gets on one knee and begs Whis to train him. That's progression.
That’s enough .
I respect your opinions .
The vegeta that I enjoy is more about this:
Than this :
so you prefer when the characterization is all over the place? The anime gets criticized frequently for the apparent emphasis on the "cool factor" but this is a perfect example of the manga just trying to have a cool moment without considering anything else at all.
What I’m trying to say , is that what you called progression, for me is a humiliation. I don’t enjoy vegeta on one knee or dancing . This is not about manga or anime .
But again I respect if you like that
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:33 pm

I analysed the Vegeta moment again and I see it in much better eyes now. It for sure doesn't deserve the hyperbole's being thrown around here.

First it was foreshadowed, I advice everyone to re-read chapter 27. In that chapter Vegeta catches up to Goku using the "same methods", he even says "everything Kakarot does I can do also". We can see what that's worth, he's once again left in the dust by Goku. Which leads him to reject using the same training/style.
The frustration is building up ever since the fight against Merged Zamasu.

It's true that he was "forged by solo training", he only had Whis as a master. In Super he follows the same steps as Goku which doesn't allow him to surpass him. Rejecting Whis is acceptable and in no way did he insult him, in-fact this chapter shows Whis was a poor teacher. He's agreeing with Vegeta while in chapter 27 he was preaching Ultra Instinct.

Regarding the way the power was obtained. The fight scene references Beerus vs Vegeta, where the latter had a rage boost. Which was the reward for the development Vegeta had throughout Dragon Ball, fighting for others was what he was missing to surpass Goku, which he did until SSJG.
So besides the "Saiyans grow during battle", I think Toyotarõ was implying that this Vegeta can get power from rage and that the moment in BoG wasn't an exception.

Finally the risking his life speech, that's clearly forced to make Jiren bring up his master. This part is only for the plot and disregards the character Vegeta this, I agree, is awful.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:32 pm

prince212 wrote: What I’m trying to say , is that what you called progression, for me is a humiliation. I don’t enjoy vegeta on one knee or dancing . This is not about manga or anime .
But again I respect if you like that
You've also taken an extreme I disagree with.

Why can't you all just be more in the middle?

Vegeta can do shit like the bingo dance, and he can do shit like he did in this chapter. The character has enough depth to justify both things. The whole point of the bingo scene was that Vegeta would lower himself enough to do that if it meant keeping Beerus sated. That was to underscore how terrifying Beerus was and how much Vegeta cared about his family (and possibly his friends). It's later stated by Goku that if Vegeta can swallow his pride enough to do that, then he can swallow his pride enough to do the super saiyan god ritual.

Vegeta isn't a character that just exists for shallow "badass"-ery, nor is he a character that is devoid of levity.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:11 pm

TKA wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Someone who respects the efforts of those around him, and recognizes his own limitations and inferiority without being complacent? He can still be a prideful person, without being an absolute jackass to people his known and grown to appreciate for over a decade.

>Will get back to Bergamo's post soon.
That's not Vegeta though.

There's a reason the updated volume release of the end of Z had Vegeta saying he'd still surpass Kakarot.

The "You're number 1" speech is Vegeta finally accepting Goku as better than him then, and was NOT him giving up on ever surpassing him. That's not Vegeta.
JazzMazz said "without being complacent", though; that means he can still have surpassing Goku as his goal, he just doesn't have to be filled with resentment and insecurity.
LightBing wrote:It's true that he was "forged by solo training", he only had Whis as a master. In Super he follows the same steps as Goku which doesn't allow him to surpass him. Rejecting Whis is acceptable and in no way did he insult him, in-fact this chapter shows Whis was a poor teacher. He's agreeing with Vegeta while in chapter 27 he was preaching Ultra Instinct.
In no way an insult? Poor teacher? Look back to the Cell and Boo arcs for a reminder of where Vegeta gets when left to his own devices; even having to resort to cheating to get on par. Before getting mad at your teacher for your own lack of proficiency, think about where you'd be without them.

Whis only agreed that Vegeta wasn't naturally suited to Ultra Instinct. It wasn't like he agreed Ultra Instinct is a bad goal. But if you can't do things the right way, you may have better results trying an inferior method.
Regarding the way the power was obtained. The fight scene references Beerus vs Vegeta, where the latter had a rage boost. Which was the reward for the development Vegeta had throughout Dragon Ball, fighting for others was what he was missing to surpass Goku, which he did until SSJG.
At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect—that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power. That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now.

Vegeta was just throwing a tantrum as far I'm concerned. He was high on his own delusions and tripping on his own power. This doesn't mark any shift in, or new direction for, his character.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:47 pm

prince212 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
prince212 wrote: That’s enough .
I respect your opinions .
The vegeta that I enjoy is more about this:
Than this :
so you prefer when the characterization is all over the place? The anime gets criticized frequently for the apparent emphasis on the "cool factor" but this is a perfect example of the manga just trying to have a cool moment without considering anything else at all.
What I’m trying to say , is that what you called progression, for me is a humiliation. I don’t enjoy vegeta on one knee or dancing . This is not about manga or anime .
But again I respect if you like that
This isnt about what I do enjoy or don't enjoy. I mentioned the anime's depiction of Vegeta getting on a knee because he presumably did the same thing in the manga continuity but they skipped that arc in the manga. How else would Whis have agreed to train him? We are left to assume he also progressed in that way in Toyotaro's story roo.

He acquired Whis'a training by swallowing his pride and then he used Whis's tutelage to reach new heights of power. It is ridiculous for him to suddenly be like "yeah I got this way by training solo" because it is a big "fuck you" to Whis, it goes back on the development, and it is just blatantly untrue. He has his current level of power as a direct result of training with Whis, not by some fire of solo training.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:55 pm

Simere wrote:In no way an insult? Poor teacher? Look back to the Cell and Boo arcs for a reminder of where Vegeta gets when left to his own devices; even having to resort to cheating to get on par. Before getting mad at your teacher for your own lack of proficiency, think about where you'd be without them.

Whis only agreed that Vegeta wasn't naturally suited to Ultra Instinct. It wasn't like he agreed Ultra Instinct is a bad goal. But if you can't do things the right way, you may have better results trying an inferior method.
Seriously..., Whis is literally admitting he was wrong teaching Ultra Instinct to Vegeta. He calls it the "correct course", "his style would not naturaly lead to Ultra Instinct". He failed to see this, Whis is represented as a poor teacher, it's not even up to debate. If you push your student in the wrong direction you did a poor job.

So Vegeta being second best to freaking Goku makes him bad now? What has the Majin bit to do with anything?

Vegeta isn't at any point mad at Whis nor does he insult him. Stating your preference and going through with it doesn't mean shitting on what was your previous path. If you give up college that doesn't mean you are mad at your teachers or blaming them.
Simere wrote:At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect—that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power. That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now.

Vegeta was just throwing a tantrum as far I'm concerned. He was high on his own delusions and tripping on his own power. This doesn't mark any shift in, or new direction for, his character.
Vegeta only cared 100% for his family when he sacrificed himself. By then he didn't have any more power to pull out since Babidi already did it and the rest of the arc happened in what 2 days?
In BoG a numbers of years had passed and what happens is exactly as described in that quote. It's Mr.Toriyama completing Vegeta's development, that's the only reason that scene exists in the movie.

I don't think in the particular scene we are discussing it's particularly effective, specially since it's something barely pondered upon by any characters. Regardless the reference is there and Toyotarõ applied this same type of storytelling before. For example: Vegeta teaching Cabba is mirrored with Vegeta killing Nappa to demonstrate the different attitude towards weak Saiyans.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:43 pm

LightBing wrote:
Simere wrote:In no way an insult? Poor teacher? Look back to the Cell and Boo arcs for a reminder of where Vegeta gets when left to his own devices; even having to resort to cheating to get on par. Before getting mad at your teacher for your own lack of proficiency, think about where you'd be without them.

Whis only agreed that Vegeta wasn't naturally suited to Ultra Instinct. It wasn't like he agreed Ultra Instinct is a bad goal. But if you can't do things the right way, you may have better results trying an inferior method.
Seriously..., Whis is literally admitting he was wrong teaching Ultra Instinct to Vegeta. He calls it the "correct course", "his style would not naturaly lead to Ultra Instinct". He failed to see this, Whis is represented as a poor teacher, it's not even up to debate. If you push your student in the wrong direction you did a poor job.
It is up for debate, though I'm not going to argue with someone who says it's not.
So Vegeta being second best to freaking Goku makes him bad now? What has the Majin bit to do with anything?
You disparaged the results of Whis's training because he didn't surpass freaking Goku. I asked you to look at the alternative, as displayed in the Cell and Boo arcs. It's not up for debate that Vegeta's had better results keeping up with Goku than he did on his own.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:00 pm

Simere wrote: JazzMazz said "without being complacent", though; that means he can still have surpassing Goku as his goal, he just doesn't have to be filled with resentment and insecurity.
Resentment? Really?

Android Arc Vegeta would've flown off and worked himself to death if Goku was at a higher level. Buu Arc Vegeta literally sold his soul.

This Vegeta didn't do any of the self-destructive stuff he usually did because he isn't that person anymore. This is him literally saying "Okay, I've not been true to what has gotten me to this dance in the first place." Then his belief in himself pushed him to a higher plateau of power, which he had already resolved to get to out since the start of the arc.

I don't like the power up, but everything leading to it makes sense.

Also, if you insist that Vegeta is wrong for saying he'll do things his way and disregarding his teacher, then that's okay. That's you disagreeing with a character's personal philosophy, which is FINE. It doesn't, however, make that character's philosophy wrong.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:02 pm

Simere wrote:It is up for debate, though I'm not going to argue with someone who says it's not.
If Vegeta's new path is the correct one then the previous one was incorrect. Incorrect means wrong, there's no ambiguity in these words therefore there's nothing to argue. Saying that there is rejecting what the character and the writer are saying.
Simere wrote:You disparaged the results of Whis's training because he didn't surpass freaking Goku. I asked you to look at the alternative, as displayed in the Cell and Boo arcs. It's not up for debate that Vegeta's had better results keeping up with Goku than he did on his own.
Vegeta surpassed Goku twice before, at the start of the Android arc and in BoG. That's arguably better than during his tutelage under Whis. In either scenario looking at it globally Vegeta has always lagged behind. Regardless the comparison accomplishes nothing, the circumstances are very different in more than one way.

And I'm not saying Whis training was crap as a whole, he freaking teach them SSJB. Just that pushing Ultra Instinct onto Vegeta was wrong, as he said himself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:02 pm

TKA wrote:
Simere wrote: JazzMazz said "without being complacent", though; that means he can still have surpassing Goku as his goal, he just doesn't have to be filled with resentment and insecurity.
Resentment? Really?

Android Arc Vegeta would've flown off and worked himself to death if Goku was at a higher level. Buu Arc Vegeta literally sold his soul.

This Vegeta didn't do any of the self-destructive stuff he usually did because he isn't that person anymore. This is him literally saying "Okay, I've not been true to what has gotten me to this dance in the first place." Then his belief in himself pushed him to a higher plateau of power, which he had already resolved to get to out since the start of the arc.
Well, yeah, resentment. Vegeta didn't pledge to reach some arbitrary higher plateau; it was specifically UI, and specifically before Goku. It didn't turn out like he wanted so his resentment bubbled over. Just because he's had greater displays of it in the past doesn't mean that's not what this was. Plus the insecurity. Perhaps a little disillusionment. I don't mind, myself, but I see why some people think it's a regression.
Also, if you insist that Vegeta is wrong for saying he'll do things his way and disregarding his teacher, then that's okay. That's you disagreeing with a character's personal philosophy, which is FINE. It doesn't, however, make that character's philosophy wrong.
He can insist on his own way, but believing that going it solo is why he's at this dance...can't say it's definitively wrong since we'll never know, but nothing leads me to believe he would have obtained god ki and beyond on his own, and I think past performance indicates he wouldn't have.

Like I said, I don't think a word he said is worth taking to heart. It's not his philosophy, it's just a tantrum that will die down and he'll go back to normal.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:20 pm

MajinMan wrote:How did the manga make Vegeta worse than he was in the anime? How?

“Fuck everyone, I got my power on my own (Bullshit, you trained with Trunks, Goku, and Whis to get to where you are now).”

“I have no teacher (Whis apparently means absolutely nothing to Vegeta).”

“These stupid Earthlings and their stupid little martial arts tournaments, they’ll never understand the true pain and suffering I went through as the Saiyan prince!! I always risk my life, unlike these stupid losers who just sit on their ass all day and have done nothing (Even though they had to suffer through the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, Piccolo’s son, VEGETA himself, and so on).”

“I’m better than Kakarrot!!! WAAAHHHH!!! (No).”

Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Who else was able to make Jiren question what an opponent used after dodging him other than Roshi using similar UI movements [BTW, Jiren didn't consider Roshi a hard fight fellas]?
How come no one see's the contrast between Goku being calm and accessing UI and Vegeta losing it [always been his style] and not able to gain UI?
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:26 pm

Simere wrote: Well, yeah, resentment. Vegeta didn't pledge to reach some arbitrary higher plateau; it was specifically UI, and specifically before Goku. It didn't turn out like he wanted so his resentment bubbled over. Just because he's had greater displays of it in the past doesn't mean that's not what this was. Plus the insecurity. Perhaps a little disillusionment. I don't mind, myself, but I see why some people think it's a regression.
Because he's had greater displays of it is why this doesn't qualify. People seem to think that just because Vegeta acknowledged Goku as stronger than him in the Buu arc that it meant he'd give up on being his own person, give up on surpassing Goku and give up on training. These aren't true. He'll still try his best to do all these things; he just won't be a planet-risking, self-destructive prick about it anymore.

Let's put it this way: Vegeta didn't say he'll quit drugs. He said he'll quit heroin and transition to marijuana, essentially. Yes, he's still taking drugs, but a FAR less dangerous and destructive kind. He's no longer going to think of Goku as low-class trash, but he is still going to try to surpass him, which is a healthier rivalry.

He doesn't hate Goku for surpassing him; he's angry at himself for forgetting the principles that got him to the dance in the first place. There's nothing wrong with this. If you disagree with Vegeta's assessment of his situation, then that's fine. But the minute you try to say this is bad/regressive/hackneyed writing or something, you've gone way too far in that direction. It isn't bad writing because it honors what came before while presenting the character in a light that makes sense.
He can insist on his own way, but believing that going it solo is why he's at this dance...can't say it's definitively wrong since we'll never know, but nothing leads me to believe he would have obtained god ki and beyond on his own, and I think past performance indicates he wouldn't have.
He explained in this chapter all the times going it alone has benefited him. It was as a lone warrior on the battlefield that he became powerful enough to toss around Goku, Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe when he first came to Earth. It was as a lonely warrior that he achieved Super Saiyan and beyond.

I don't recall if the manga outright stated this or not, but the anime said in explicit terms that Vegeta somehow achieved God Ki on his own through training rather than a ritual. Goku praises him against Frieza for being able to do so.
Like I said, I don't think a word he said is worth taking to heart. It's not his philosophy, it's just a tantrum that will die down and he'll go back to normal.
It is absolutely his philosophy though. Vegeta has always been loathe to ask for help. He hits his head against a brick wall until he gets through. The only thing that's changed is that he's less self-destructive about it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:44 pm

TKA wrote: You've also taken an extreme I disagree with.Why can't you all just be more in the middle?
Vegeta can do shit like the bingo dance, and he can do shit like he did in this chapter. The character has enough depth to justify both things. The whole point of the bingo scene was that Vegeta would lower himself enough to do that if it meant keeping Beerus sated. That was to underscore how terrifying Beerus was and how much Vegeta cared about his family (and possibly his friends). It's later stated by Goku that if Vegeta can swallow his pride enough to do that, then he can swallow his pride enough to do the super saiyan god ritual.

Vegeta isn't a character that just exists for shallow "badass"-ery, nor is he a character that is devoid of levity.
PFM18 wrote:
This isnt about what I do enjoy or don't enjoy. I mentioned the anime's depiction of Vegeta getting on a knee because he presumably did the same thing in the manga continuity but they skipped that arc in the manga. How else would Whis have agreed to train him? We are left to assume he also progressed in that way in Toyotaro's story roo.

He acquired Whis'a training by swallowing his pride and then he used Whis's tutelage to reach new heights of power. It is ridiculous for him to suddenly be like "yeah I got this way by training solo" because it is a big "fuck you" to Whis, it goes back on the development, and it is just blatantly untrue. He has his current level of power as a direct result of training with Whis, not by some fire of solo training.
I can see what you guys are talking about vegeta swallowing his pride for good reasons , protect his family and trying to be stronger , it’s just that I’m not a fan of how that was depicted, I found both ways ( bingo dance and one knee asking to Whis for train ) way too much of lower him down , may be just my vegeta fan pride .
Moving to the trending of Whis “fuck you” , I don’t consider that a regression , Whis agreed, is just a reality.
Obviously vegeta is aware of how much that training helped him , but doesn’t fit his goal to surpass kakarot , because again he’s a step behind . His speech was more about auto-motivation than the reality of the things , but that’s how it works for him , his pride makes him improve at the end of the day.
And as a vegeta fan I’m happy that in this chapter it was solidified his pride and the need of taking a different path with goku , his own way. Enough of if goku can do it , I can do it and more of looking inside of himself , like he always did before super .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:20 pm

I may be the only one that just realized this but It seems after reading Viz and mangastream Goku did indeed use Kaioken Blue. It's stated by Krillin in both translations that Goku indeed was using Kaioken.
Even the aura is Kaioken like. Did Herms ever chime in on these particular events through translation checking?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:21 pm

prince212 wrote: Moving to the trending of Whis “fuck you” , I don’t consider that a regression , Whis agreed, is just a reality.
It's not even a reality, it's made-up horseshit that isn't in either version of the story.

Vegeta didn't flip the bird at Whis at any point, nor did he try to claim superiority over Goku. He's saying he lost sight of himself and his personal methods of obtaining power; that he'd rather go it alone because it's what he's done throughout his life. That's what Whis agreed with. Nothing more, nothing less. The message is as innocuous as it gets.

If people have to attribute dialogue to characters that they never actually said just to make their point, they should probably take a step back and think about whether they're truly reading the material in earnest.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:37 pm

Miracles wrote:I may be the only one that just realized this but It seems after reading Viz and mangastream Goku did indeed use Kaioken Blue. It's stated by Krillin in both translations that Goku indeed was using Kaioken.
Even the aura is Kaioken like. Did Herms ever chime in on these particular events through translation checking?
I hesitate to debate semantics with you again...but that's not what was stated. Tenshinhan asked if it was similar to the Kaio-ken, and Kuririn riffed off the thought. Same structure in a different context:

A: I think he'll enjoy it. It's a fruit that tastes tart but somewhat sweet.
B: Ah, does it taste like apples?
C: Apples? He's never liked those before.


At no point was the fruit in question ever said to be apples, only referenced in comparison. And in so doing apples are eliminated as a possibility, because if they were apples you wouldn't compare them to apples. So it's not Kaio-ken.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:04 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
prince212 wrote: Moving to the trending of Whis “fuck you” , I don’t consider that a regression , Whis agreed, is just a reality.
It's not even a reality, it's made-up horseshit that isn't in either version of the story.

Vegeta didn't flip the bird at Whis at any point, nor did he try to claim superiority over Goku. He's saying he lost sight of himself and his personal methods of obtaining power; that he'd rather go it alone because it's what he's done throughout his life. That's what Whis agreed with. Nothing more, nothing less. The message is as innocuous as it gets.

If people have to attribute dialogue to characters that they never actually said just to make their point, they should probably take a step back and think about whether they're truly reading the material in earnest.
Somehow I express myself wrong , I agree with you .
Miracles wrote:I may be the only one that just realized this but It seems after reading Viz and mangastream Goku did indeed use Kaioken Blue. It's stated by Krillin in both translations that Goku indeed was using Kaioken.
Even the aura is Kaioken like. Did Herms ever chime in on these particular events through translation checking?
I think herms said it was not , they just compared it or something, also that’s what I understood reading viz .
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:08 pm

prince212 wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
prince212 wrote: Moving to the trending of Whis “fuck you” , I don’t consider that a regression , Whis agreed, is just a reality.
It's not even a reality, it's made-up horseshit that isn't in either version of the story.

Vegeta didn't flip the bird at Whis at any point, nor did he try to claim superiority over Goku. He's saying he lost sight of himself and his personal methods of obtaining power; that he'd rather go it alone because it's what he's done throughout his life. That's what Whis agreed with. Nothing more, nothing less. The message is as innocuous as it gets.

If people have to attribute dialogue to characters that they never actually said just to make their point, they should probably take a step back and think about whether they're truly reading the material in earnest.
Somehow I express myself wrong , I agree with you .
Miracles wrote:I may be the only one that just realized this but It seems after reading Viz and mangastream Goku did indeed use Kaioken Blue. It's stated by Krillin in both translations that Goku indeed was using Kaioken.
Even the aura is Kaioken like. Did Herms ever chime in on these particular events through translation checking?
I think herms said it was not , they just compared it or something, also that’s what I understood reading viz .
I don't see how this can possibly be spun in such a way that Vegeta isn't disrespecting Whis here.

Toyotaro can essentially do anything and some people will praise him for it regardless of how crappy and nonsensical it is.

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TKA
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:15 pm

prince212 wrote: I can see what you guys are talking about vegeta swallowing his pride for good reasons , protect his family and trying to be stronger , it’s just that I’m not a fan of how that was depicted, I found both ways ( bingo dance and one knee asking to Whis for train ) way too much of lower him down , may be just my vegeta fan pride
Vegeta is my favorite character in all of fiction. I like him more than Batman. I like him more than Darth Vader (this includes the Expanded Universe). I like him more than Humbert. I like him more than Macbeth. There isn't a single character in all of fiction that I think even comes close to being as good as Vegeta.

I fucking love how he gets humiliated (in Toriyama stories; Toei does it poorly). The humiliation is how his character grows since Vegeta is so stubborn and has such a strong will that he'll keep doing things his way otherwise. Getting humiliated in the Cell arc gave him some of the best and most natural character development I've ever seen. Seeing him broken down so much that he cries against Frieza was great. Seeing him come to grips with the fact that his sacrifice against Buu meant nothing was fantastic.

Seeing him subject HIMSELF to the bingo dance was fucking amazing because it showed in that one moment just how far his character had developed. A good way to gauge how much a character has changed is to look at their intro and compare it to their most recent outing. Can you see Saiyan Arc Vegeta doing that? I can't. I can't even picture Buu arc Vegeta doing that. This is a character that changes so much over the course of the series, man. He's too deep and too nuanced a character to just be a vehicle for "cool" moments.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:50 pm

TKA wrote:
I feel like you open the can of my inners reasons of because he is my favorite too .
Still not convince about the dance , such a “development” really shock me , I took it as an annoying gag mix with just what you expressed before .
PFM18 wrote: Toyotaro can essentially do anything and some people will praise him for it regardless of how crappy and nonsensical it is.
Honestly I think you have an obsession about it , I’ve been following this forum and everybody (including me) , have points of criticism towards him , people don’t praise everything , feels like you don’t like when somebody doesn’t agree with your thoughts.
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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