"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

I'll let TKA address the Cabba situation if he wants.

You are very wrong about this. Toriyama's seal of approval is meaningless. He "approved" GT, but that doesn't mean he was heavily involved. Toriyama re-scripts and re-draws things for the manga that get published. He directly oversees Toyotaros work, and makes corrections as he sees fit. There has never been an interview that implies he has even close to that level of involvement with the anime. Why would he? That's not what he does.

He's become more involved with the film than any of the Super anime, but the nature of the films are different because Toriyama writes the majority of the script (as opposed to just an outline).

Maybe he doesn't quite have the same involvement as in the manga but to say his involvement is "minimal" is just factually incorrect. He still ultimately approves any major changes Toei makes or he makes changes when it is appropriate in the anime.

[reecehoward]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

I'll let TKA address the Cabba situation if he wants.

You are very wrong about this. Toriyama's seal of approval is meaningless. He "approved" GT, but that doesn't mean he was heavily involved. Toriyama re-scripts and re-draws things for the manga that get published. He directly oversees Toyotaros work, and makes corrections as he sees fit. There has never been an interview that implies he has even close to that level of involvement with the anime. Why would he? That's not what he does.

He's become more involved with the film than any of the Super anime, but the nature of the films are different because Toriyama writes the majority of the script (as opposed to just an outline).

Toriyama does have a good amount of involvement in with anime. Not to the extended extent of the manga, where he's literally correcting drawings or changing dialogue, but it's still significant changes to the direction Toei wanted to originally take with the anime.

Jiren's backstory and Toppo's general character were changes made as a result of suggestions Toei made directly to Toriyama about what kind of personality Jiren should have had. Toei coming up with Kale and showing it Toriyama lead to him personally creating an entire new character (Caulifla). And the creation of Caulifla snowballed into Kefla becoming a thing.

If anyone doubts this, just listen to the 2nd soundtrack and find Jiren's actual original theme...It, along with a few other unused tracks, fits in line with what Toei originally had in mind and what was changed with Toriyama's input. Goku's theme would have been very reminiscent of Superman's theme, but it isn't used in series because Toriyama likely told them to tone down Goku's superhero qualities as well.

[batistabus]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

I'll let TKA address the Cabba situation if he wants.

You are very wrong about this. Toriyama's seal of approval is meaningless. He "approved" GT, but that doesn't mean he was heavily involved. Toriyama re-scripts and re-draws things for the manga that get published. He directly oversees Toyotaros work, and makes corrections as he sees fit. There has never been an interview that implies he has even close to that level of involvement with the anime. Why would he? That's not what he does.

He's become more involved with the film than any of the Super anime, but the nature of the films are different because Toriyama writes the majority of the script (as opposed to just an outline).

Toriyama does have a good amount of involvement in with anime. Not to the extended extent of the manga, where he's literally correcting drawings or changing dialogue, but it's still significant changes to the direction Toei wanted to originally take with the anime.

Jiren's backstory and Toppo's general character were changes made as a result of suggestions Toei made directly to Toriyama about what kind of personality Jiren should have had. Toei coming up with Kale and showing it Toriyama lead to him personally creating an entire new character (Caulifla). And the creation of Caulifla snowballed into Kefla becoming a thing.

Yes, but those are macro details that affect the outline of both versions. Toei certainly helps craft the outline, as they're the ones who propose story ideas to Toriyama in the first place. That's not the level of nitty-gritty we're talking about.

[MatureGambino]

After re-reading Ch. 27 on my break, Ch. 40 makes A LOT more sense from Vegeta's perspective. He's begrudgingly undergone through Whis' teachings, and didn't even want to take any compliments from him. That's clearly not his style.

And if you think about Vegeta's endeavors thus far:

• He acquired god ki not from the ritual, but through his own devices as Goku put it. Yes he was trained by Whis to an extent but if the anime is anything to go by, he mostly had to learn it himself while Whis provided the regimens/training grounds for doing it.
• He trained by himself and came up with the clever SSG-B switcheroo to overcome Black.
• He learned CSSB by himself.
• And he wanted to achieve UI first before Goku because he, in his own words, he was done chasing after Goku. But when Goku got UI "Omen" before him, or UI in general, Vegeta has decided not to play that game anymore and go about gaining strength his own way. Because that is how he improves the most.

And his battle philosophy is and has always been to become the strongest through pure power, to beat the opponent in front of him, to win and nothing else. Which, as Whis clearly puts it, not in line with the principle of UI, if the lectures we got from Roshi is anything to go by:

"We don't do martial arts to win. We do it to conquer ourselves."

The clear contrast between Goku and Vegeta's philosophies could not be anymore clear. Goku's martial arts teachings will naturally lead to UI, whereas Vegeta, who was raised as a pure battle-aggressive Saiyan, who's always been solo could never. At first I really did think Vegeta regressed as a character but now I really appreciate how Toyo laid out the different philosophies between Goku and Vegeta, which was the entire objective of his speech to Jiren. He's still the same Vegeta, but now we see it out loud.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[TKA]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

No, his role in the anime is minimal compared to his role in the manga. Context should've told you that's what I meant, but if I have to spell it all out...

Toriyama only gives them notes that they then flesh out in ways they want to with their in-house writers. He also isn't involved in the filler stuff that they come up with. In the manga, he works very closely with Toyotaro and directly oversees what the guy does.

You COMPLETELY misinterpreted this scene with Cabba.

Cool.

Now explain why Vegeta would rather give Copy Vegeta advice and risk all their lives in doing so, instead of just letting Goku beat him.

If you come up with some flimsy justification for that, I'll just throw another example at you of how Toei mishandles Vegeta. There's a long list I can pull from.

Actually, I won't. That's boring.

[PFM18]

Toriyama only gives them notes that they then flesh out in ways they want to with their in-house writers. He also isn't involved in the filler stuff that they come up with. In the manga, he works very closely with Toyotaro and directly oversees what the guy does.

He still has to approve anything the anime does. Like the examples that Lord Beerus gave in regards to Toppo/Jiren and Caulifla/Kale. You're exaggerating how hands-off Toriyama is with the anime.

Now explain why Vegeta would rather give Copy Vegeta advice and risk all their lives in doing so, instead of just letting Goku beat him.

He didn't want to see himself lose to his rival, even if it is just a carbon copy of him and not literally him. It's fairly in-character for him. If you have to reference an extremely inconsequential filler sequence for examples of how they've mishandled Vegeta it appears that you don't have much to go off of. It isn't as though they messed up his characterization in any major moments in an arc.(like the manga so clearly does here in this chapter)

[prince212]

Those who say it destroyed Vegeta's character really don't know the story at all.

Let them enjoy “my cabba”

[Rakurai]

Thank you. That's an in canon analysis.

No problem. We are simply coming full circle with Vegeta's personality and way of life. I am pretty dissatisfied that he got shafted from UI, but given the way the manga portrayed it to be (and I love the concept far more than the limit-breaking Spirit bomb asspull), it really doesn't suit his battle style, which is very confrontational & aggressive.

Those who say it destroyed Vegeta's character really don't know the story at all.

Let them enjoy “my cabba”

Ehh, I wouldn't find it surprising if the manga went that route as well - the whole "I'll think of Cabba!" shtick to get another temporary power boost.

Though it seems unlikely given how quickly Vegeta dismissed Cabba when he needed him the most. Actually, their relationship seems pretty one-sided given how oddly cold senpai Vegeta is to kouhai Cabba-kun.

[lord turbo]

@lord turbo

Martial arts skill =/= Martial arts experience
Just because Goku is better than Roshi at fighting doesn't mean he automatically knows all of the same techniques. Do you really think Goku could do hypnosis at a moments notice?

Goku's martial arts skills and experiences is stated (By Roshi himself and others) to exceed Roshi several times in the story, bad forced writing doesn't change that.

Oh, look it's lord turbo, back again, replying to my post weeks later. I guess I'll wait another 3 weeks for you to reply again. You don't need to read all of it. Just read the part in blue.

I do apologize for such long lapses in responses, I'll try to be more quicker with my replies.

Of course Goku surpasses Roshi's martial arts. He's the main character. He learned the Kamehameha when it took Roshi 50 years. This is STILL consistent. Roshi watches Roshi once and he's able to replicate the movement. People are having a problem with Goku learning UI when Hakaishin after millions of years, could not. Yet, these principles of martial arts, are in Goku's mind since the beginning of DB.

What isn't consistent and what people don't like is badly regressing Goku to a point where he's a forgetful buffoon that doesn't learn or remember anything he was taught, mastered, and improved on over the course of his life just to give Roshi some shine at the character's expense, that's bad storytelling.

It goes to remind you (since you forgot), that Goku had several masters that focused on "movement".

Yes, informed “Movements” were Goku supposedly acts different even though he's drawn and moves exactly the same as before and after... Yes, I'm aware of Toriyama's weak storytelling in that regard.

Roshi asked Goku, "What does strength mean to you?" Is it power? Is that what Vegeta and Freeza taught you? Goku tried to overcome Jiren in power and FAILED.

That dialogue from Roshi was awful, so much I'm surprised Vegeta didn't kick Roshi's ass himself. Vegeta is the same person who's learned the art of what Mr. Popo taught Goku just by being aware it was possible because “reasons” I guess. The same one called a fighting genius by Goku and Piccolo and who's learning and applying the same lessons Goku is learning from Whis. Also, Goku did not fail against Jiren, he simply didn't power up enough to overcome the power difference between him and Jiren, context (Which you are ignoring) is important.

Whis said that is also NOT the way to overcome his wall. Then, Roshi showed him there's more than one way to fight an opponent.

By getting his ass easily kicked and dismissed when someone slightly raises their power level? Not really a great plan or lesson in general.

Even after finding the manga chapters, showing you that Goku reading Tao's movements matter, you still fail to understand. It's literally right in front of your yes. Strength is always a component, but so is movement. If you can't understand that, then there's no point discussing this farther.

Lets take this step by step.

https://imgur.com/a/yEB9jtw

Goku stomps Tao

https://imgur.com/a/bJkx8MG

Goku stomps Tao again, the only reason Tao even lands a hit is because Goku couldn't move in midair to dodge.

https://imgur.com/a/CF5SlDd

Goku stops Tao's Dodonpa with his barehands, as we all should know in DB concentrated name ki attacks have greater attack force than the user's base stats, ergo, Goku > Dondonpa > Kamehameha > Tao which concretely shows Goku is considerably above Tao in power level.

https://imgur.com/a/WeU2ihG

Tao gets desperate and resorts to swords to try and gain some king of advantage over Goku showing how inferior he is too him.

https://imgur.com/a/HHrCoXc

I boxed Upa's dialogue in red for a reason, Goku is allowing Tao to hit him to prove his superiority over him as apparently stopping his greatest attack (Dondonpa) wasn't enough. Goku is being dismissively cheeky by stating hurt him badly when in reality he hurt him about as badly as 19 and Semi-Perfect Cell did SS Vegeta and Super Vegeta respectively, as in not really.

https://imgur.com/a/mvbZL5Y

Goku easily stomps the crap out of Tao with superior speed and power, Tao is utterly outmatched with zero hope of winning.

https://imgur.com/a/0OSgB1A

So much so Tao turns into a complete and utter coward that Goku counters. So like I said before no real martial arts skills, Goku beat the crap out of Tao (Very easily I might add) due to having a higher power level, that's it.

You have a warped idea of 'power' in your head. Speed and power are not always equal.

No, you just don't remember how DB/Z works in general, speed and power go hand in hand in this series unless otherwise noted such as rare examples that are the exception and not the rule in DB/Z

Trunks Super Saiyan Grade 3 is a prime example of this.

Not really, its a prime example of the exception and not the rule for the very fact its a form that is stated to be outright imbalanced in stats boosting.

Goku showed he had superior speed to Tenshinhan. He beat Tenshinhan's technique. If Goku is superior in power, then why can Tenshinhan tank Goku's most powerful Super Kamehameha?

The same reason Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza did the same despite being inferior to Goku to varying degrees respectively.

They are equal, both of them can tank each other's Kamehameha.

They are not equal, getting your assed kicked and embarrassed is not a sign of equal standing.

Yet, Tenshinhan's Kihoho still has more destructive power and can kill Goku why?

Because different techniques (Dondonpa, Kamehameha and all its upgraded versions, Makankosappo, Galick Gun, Final Flash, Big Bang Attack, and etc) all have different yields to their attack power). This doesn't mean jack for their base stats which is important.

It uses vital energy and hence, it can trump Goku.

Is this actually said in the series proper (I can't recall such a statement being uttered) or simple head-caon from the fandom?

Yea... "simple and basic move". Propelling yourself using a Kamehameha to hit Tenshinhan took everyone by surprise.

It is, Roshi (the person surprised by it, lol) done it himself before in the previous tournament).

Goku and Tenshinhan were both dropping but Tenshinhan had Bukujutsu. Goku had no options left and it was implied he was going to shoot it at Tenshinhan. This time, Goku didn't use the Kamehameha to prevent a ring out. He used the propelling force to launch him towards Tenshinhan. This is called strategy.

Strategy is worthless in DB if there is no power to go behind it, otherwise Tien would have deflected Goku's assault, but he couldn't because Goku was too strong and too fast to do such with a simple headbutt.

Yes, so you prefer your black tinted version where DB is all about power, transformations, screaming and people beating the crap out of each other. Who cares about technique? This ain't Naruto right?

You just described DB/Z in a nutshell.

Piccolo Daimou restored his youth and got a little stronger to 260. Kami, at this time, was not given an official power level in the Daizenshuu.

Do you enjoy arguing with the persistence of a loud bulldozer or something? I kindly pointed out multiple times why the laughable Daizenshuu numbers don't make sense. Tien matched weighted clothing Goku that was stated far stronger than he was when he killed Demon Piccolo. This character is always training, yet at the start of Z his BP is 250 which is lower than the 260 they gave for young Piccolo Daimao.

Rather, his battle power was given at the time when Raditz arrived in DBZ, during the Saiyan saga. Hence, five years past since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. In that time, perhaps Kami did not train as he trusted Goku to protect the Earth, so his power declined.

Head-canon, there's nothing suggesting Kami ever trained or didn't train before he met Goku so...

This same logic, is the same for Tenshinhan. It's unknown what he did during the 5-year gap. There was no motivation to train as there were no new threats or any tournaments. After Piccolo destroyed the entire stage, the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai wasn't held until 11 years later.

Again, head-canon (And bad one at that), Tien is literally Vegeta's character and role at this point in the series. A character consistently obsessed with surpassing and beating Goku, he doesn't need a tournament to train to try and surpass Goku, that's his goal in life up to that point, try again.

Popo dodged that punch. He did not block it.

And...? Are you trying to imply he couldn't block it? I would post the whole fight, but that is a waste of time. Mr. Popo treated Goku identical to what 18 did to Vegeta if not more worst. He called him him very weak repeatedly and questioned if he actually was able to beat Demon Piccolo, telling him to get lost and go home for being too weak to see Kami.

Using a kamehameha to propel himself, will give him more momentum for that punch. This is just physics.

I wouldn't use physics to argue for a series that constantly ignores and breaks it ever so often...

So even if their battle powers are equal, Goku used all his ki to propel himself in one short burst against Piccolo.

Since you like to reference other series for DB/Z lets use Bleach, Ichigo enhances his sword swings with the GT, however, as Ulquiorra states it doesn't matter how he uses it, an ineffective move against him from the start will have the same results.

The punch he used against Kami was just a normal punch.

a full force punch that he casually finger flicked like a mere booger you mean.

The one he used against Popo was the punch that defeated Piccolo.

The one that Mr. Popo laughed off and called utterly weak and told Goku to get lost? Hmmm....You do realize Mr. Popo stated Kami was far stronger than himself correct? Goku is simply far out of his league no matter what he does, I thought that was made abundantly clear, but I guess not for some others it seems.

Kienzan doesn't ignore power level differences.

Yes, it does.

There are times when even the Kienzan will not work. For example, Krillin threw a Kienzan at Perfect Cell's neck.

That's nonsensical Toei filler, nothing by Toriyama himself.

It's because Raditz (1500) had a small power gap between Gohan's headbutt (1307), that some damage was done, enough to break Raditz armor at least.

Raditz is slightly higher than a Saibaimen (1200) as stated by Toriyama, not 1,500. Lol at saying “some damage”, Raditz was critically injured to the point a severely beaten and wounded Goku could hold him firmly in place against his will, that's called critical damage.

Piccolo's makkankosappo again, is an attack that pierces because its energy is focused. He missed the first time and the second time, his power was even greater.

The makankosappo is only as powerful as its given BP, its why Raditz was able to palmed Goku's over 924 Kamehameha, but not Piccolo's 1330 beam attack, nor could he palm the simple headbutt of Gohan at 1307

Of course Tenshinhan, with a 1.5x power gap would win against a Saibamen in a single blow.

Keep in mind I'm ignoring any nyumbers from the Daizenshuu which have been proven unreliable several times already before. I'll stick with just the manga by Toriyama were Tien was above the Saibaimen to whatever unknown degree.

What the heck does Gohan's battle power of 981 have anything to do with him following the movements of Yamcha vs Saibaman's fight?

Everything, are you even paying attention to what's being discussed here? This is a clear example to the audience about power differences and what they mean in this series. The BP difference is too big to the point Gohan is unable to follow with his eyes unlike Nappa and Vegeta who can't sense ki, Gohan would have to side step this issue by using ki sensing as a crutch to keep up, but even that has limits as Kaioken Goku (over 16,000) is shown and stated unable to keep up with Vegeta's speed and power, even with twice the Kaioken.

Keep in mind Vegeta states he made his attacks easy to dodge on purpose, he was toying with Goku and the difference is much smaller between them compared to Gohan and the Saibaimen which is much larger by comparison so you can't pull “He's not a seasoned or experienced warrior” bit here.

You did a good job on this, so I'll commend you on it. However, what this shows is basically that the power gaps are inconsistent at times and "power" should not be the only basis for determining a fight, which has been the point of my argument from the start.

There's nothing inconsistent about these gaps in general, all they show us is that it doesn't take much for a stronger fighter to curb stomp a weaker character. Toriyama mentioned Goku was a 6 to Beerus's 7 during their battle in BoGs he scripted where he had Goku state the difference was huge between them, a 16.66667% gap which perfectly matches what he wrote decades prior in DB/Z, imagine that consistency.

Remember, this is exactly what Goku stated to Raditz only to get the ever living crap kicked out of him effortlessly so we know that's not true, lol. Piccolo was foolish to telegraph his attack giving Raditz the time to dodge (barely), it was only by the slimmest and unexpected of chances that Raditz was defeated thanks to Gohan's out of the blue superior burst of power that damaged Raditz enough to give them a chance to win

Faster maybe, Not stronger. The UI technique so far, in the manga is subconsciously dodging any attack.

Well, looks like I won our bet (how will you send me the money?), the latest chapter for this month has UI Omen Goku > Pseudo SSBE Vegeta > Psuedo Blue Kaioken Goku > Complete SSB Goku. You know Complete/Mastered UI will be stronger and faster than UI Omen so its a done deal my friend.

By doing so, Goku can avoid Jiren's attacks and keep hitting Jiren with his own attacks.

If the latest chapter is any indication, same old same old Dragon Ball format is where its heading.

Even if Goku's attacks are weaker, hitting the same place multiple times or hitting vital points, can do more damage.

real life sure, super powered fantasy like DB? Not realy, not unless he has the power (Something constantly reinforce even in the very chapter you're are referencing) to back it up with.

This is also why Flash, one of the fastest characters in the DC universe, would still lose a fight versus Slade who can predict where Flash will be, trip him, and win the fight.

Flash is one of the fastest in the DC Universe due to speed force shenanigans, but he also loses a fight to say Slade due to terrible contrived nonsensical writing (To be fair, this is standard for a lot of the DC characters due to writers not being competent enough to write plausible scenarios without PIS/nerfing characters) as well.

Jiren didn't need to raise his power level. Roshi lasted for 2 seconds, surprising Jiren. Jiren did his best not to kill Roshi and karate chopped him. Jiren simply increased his speed.

You are ignoring my point, Jiren was unable to hit Roshi with his current attack so he raised his efforts and casually dismissed Roshi with superior power level.

It's the same thing with Hit's Time Lag. The 'lag' simply delays Jiren's speed and makes him slower. He only needs to increase his speed to overcome the lag. Roshi in the end, was embarrassed but he hoped that he showed Goku something.

That's because Jiren was simply holding back, when he stopped giving everyone's hopes up with a false sense of security he wrecked Hit where he briefly morphed his facial expressions to mimic Tien getting wrecked by Frost, lol. All of this is simply power level related, something I've been telling you from the very start, but you don't appear to want to listen though.

Goku evolves, not just with a mere battle power. The battle power is a mode of measurement that is easy for the audience to gauge. However, Goku's skills are evolving as he learns new techniques as well. He is also gaining more wisdom and battle experience. All these things matter, not just a battle power.

Goku hasn't evolved as a fighter since his training with Mr. Popo, any new techniques Goku's learns (Kaioken, Genki Dama, and etc) are power level related moves to increase his fighting power, none of his battle experience means jack if he fights exactly the same as he's done years before, but that's what happens when you focus primarily on power level and nothing else with cheap gimmicks as transformations used as a crutch to escalate the series into a corner, a common trapping and fault of many battle shonen series that think they are being clever but doing nothing new.

The anime showed this. We'll see if the manga does the same thing. If the manga does, then I'll admit defeat that they that the story isn't consistent and that UI is also a power-up not just a technique or state of mind.

Well, this month's latest chapter did the same so looks like I won that bet.

[Marlowe89]

Yes, but those are macro details that affect the outline of both versions. Toei certainly helps craft the outline, as they're the ones who propose story ideas to Toriyama in the first place. That's not the level of nitty-gritty we're talking about.

This.

Every known alteration Toriyama made to the anime was, as far as we know, at the conceptual stage (which Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro and all of Dragon Ball Room were deeply involved in) as opposed to the production stage. There's virtually no evidence that Toriyama actually approves/changes the anime's scripts like he does the manga's; the closest we've had to something like that is the "back tingling" stuff with Caulifla learning to transform, but even that was based purely off of a Super Saiyan manual Toriyama already wrote for them beforehand.

If we go strictly off of revealed, factual information, the manga easily trumps the anime when it comes to Toriyama's level of direct involvement. And honestly, it shows.

[Miracles]

Those who say it destroyed Vegeta's character really don't know the story at all.

Let them enjoy “my cabba”

Vegeta working for Big brother programs.

Thank you. That's an in canon analysis.

No problem. We are simply coming full circle with Vegeta's personality and way of life. I am pretty dissatisfied that he got shafted from UI, but given the way the manga portrayed it to be (and I love the concept far more than the limit-breaking Spirit bomb asspull), it really doesn't suit his battle style, which is very confrontational & aggressive.

For real. It makes more sense for it to be this way. It pulls from continuity so I'm good with it.

[Bergamo]

@lord turbo

EXPERIENCE. Roshi has been in more fights than Goku and he has been doing martial arts longer. He also knows more techniques. You can't deny those facts.

[JazzMazz]

Yes, but those are macro details that affect the outline of both versions. Toei certainly helps craft the outline, as they're the ones who propose story ideas to Toriyama in the first place. That's not the level of nitty-gritty we're talking about.

This.

Every known alteration Toriyama made to the anime was, as far as we know, at the conceptual stage (which Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro and all of Dragon Ball Room were deeply involved in) as opposed to the production stage. There's virtually no evidence that Toriyama actually approves/changes the anime's scripts like he does the manga's; the closest we've had to something like that is the "back tingling" stuff with Caulifla learning to transform, but even that was based purely off of a Super Saiyan manual Toriyama already wrote for them beforehand.

If we go strictly off of revealed, factual information, the manga easily trumps the anime when it comes to Toriyama's level of direct involvement. And honestly, it shows.

Though I definitely don't think that Toriyama rewrote and thoroughly edited each script, considering his already previously stated "massive involvement" in the show, I wouldn't be surprised if he at least gave the OK for the script themselves(especially considering that any changes anyway had to first go through Toriyama).

[ssj3kakarot]

@lord turbo

EXPERIENCE. Roshi has been in more fights than Goku and he has been doing martial arts longer. He also knows more techniques. You can't deny those facts.

Rather bold claim. I would argue against that statement kind sir.

More fights? Are we to just to assume the number of fights Roshi has had in the past or was it stated somewhere? Fights as in all out brawls to the death, tournament fights, sparing matches. Guess it depends on what your definition is.

More techniques? All is speculation really, but Goku has trained with a decent amount of people. Trained underneath, I should say ( Gohan, Roshi, Korin, Mr Popo, Kame, King Kai, the Yardrats, Whis, Otherworld stuff, etc). This doesn't include him training along side people like Vegeta and Piccolo, etc.

This is the same Goku that learned the Kamehameha by looking at it. Roshi took 50 years. King Kai even said that Goku was able to pull of the spirit bomb better than he could. Goku is a freak when it comes to techniques. I'm not saying that Goku knows all of Roshis tecniques. I'm just saying Goku very easily has more techniques.

[prince212]

Ehh, I wouldn't find it surprising if the manga went that route as well - the whole "I'll think of Cabba!" shtick to get another temporary power boost.

Though it seems unlikely given how quickly Vegeta dismissed Cabba when he needed him the most. Actually, their relationship seems pretty one-sided given how oddly cold senpai Vegeta is to kouhai Cabba-kun.

Truth, vegeta is not done in this tournament, sure there’s a chance for any surprise, some will be happy if there’s any mention to “my cabba” , I don’t think I will be happy .
I don’t expect any other power boost from him , I’ll be disappointed if so , because one of my dislikes of anime top was all the “ resurrections” . Also I think there’s just 2 more chapters, so it’s time to get to the point .
I’m surprised to be intriguing about this manga arc end , we are supposed to know it but still ....
We can like or dislike the way is being handled the arc , but for sure is keeping the readers attention for good or for bad.

[lord turbo]

Chapter 40 was basically everything I didn't like about the anime's episodes 122 to 129 condensed into 45 pages.

Some random notes/thoughts on the chapter:

- I've always been one of the people that really liked SSJB Evolution, not for its aesthetic, but more so for what it represented for Vegeta's character and his wholesome growth as a person. In the anime, the foundation for Vegeta attaining SSJB Evolution was based on his intense empathy toward others outside of his inner circle -- which also tied into the main prize of winning the Tournament Of Power (something wanted to accomplish prior to the tournament beginning) -- and his effort to forge his own path of strength beyond what Goku is doing.

In the manga, Vegeta attained his SSJB Evolution form because he was upset that Goku attained Ultra Instinct and left him in the dust again. I despise that motivation because I find to be character regression. That's kind of shit that Android/Cell arc Vegeta was doing, and Vegeta grew beyond that nonsense. Also, Vegeta mentioning that he had no master -- completely disregarding the fact that if it weren't for Whis' teachings and training he wouldn't have been able to attain SSJB Evolution -- was ridiculous. Part of Vegeta having Whis as his martial arts tutor (his first martial arts tutor at that) involved him swallowing his pride and accepting that if he was going to keep with Goku, he would need the help of others to do it. Now he's acting like he became as strong as he did without anybody helping him. What horseshit. Awful character writing.

Everything Vegeta said was just character regression (more so than usual), he's suppose to be beyond this, but I guess progressing the character beyond his bad flaws doesn't work for the story (or lack of) being told here. Vegeta's speech was just disrespectful and reeked of ungratefulness, bitterness, jealousy, and loathe. This chapter literally confirms that TFS's joke interpretation of whining princess Vegeta's "I wanna be a super saiyan, I wanna, I wanna" is spot on. Vegeta grew much stronger by drawing on pure negative emotions and spite at Goku's success. Like someone else once said its sad how Goku lives rent-free in Vegeta's head 24/7, that unhealthy obsession is not good for him.

Vegeta didn't have to bad mouth and call Goku's hardships and journey to where he is now as "Carefree kindergarten" level scraps. The whole "I'm a self made MAN forged on the true battlefield as a real soldier he had it rough growing up in the space hood is eye rolling. The fact Whis expressions were "......" just makes it funny and sad at the same time. Like another poster said I wouldn't mind this if Vegeta first pondered, appreciate Whis help, but decides its best if he tries to forge his own path instead of follow the leader would have been a much better execution, but meh, it seems Toyo doesn't really give a damn about Vegeta's characterization at this point, just checking off the bulletin points at this rate.

I'm greatly disappointed in not only Toppo, but Dyspo, they just weren't handled particular well at all in this ToP saga, I also don't like how Dyspo was eliminated. If he knew he was weakened and out of gas from fighting 17 then why set himself up for failure by trying to help Toppo when he's in no position to help anyone? That was just careless and contrived storytelling just to get this character out the way to focus on the main event (Jiren).

Apparently Toppo and Dyspo got weakened to Early DB levels if they weren't even able to clear a gap that small.

Again with the power level stuff. Did people complain when Saiyan saga Vegeta with a beating like his should've also been able to get up and walk like it was nothing since it takes literally just fraction of 1 power level to?[/quote]

If you think about it that is quite weird, Vegeta and Toppo are equally worn out to the point Toppo is too tired to jump distance that 21st Budokai saga Goku and Krillin could do by casually jumping above the clouds. The problem here Vegeta is in a similar condition just before raging out from lower than 21 Budokai saga Goku and Krillin to much higher than he currently was when he started out fresh as a compete SSB.

@lord turbo

EXPERIENCE. Roshi has been in more fights than Goku and he has been doing martial arts longer. He also knows more techniques. You can't deny those facts.

More experience and fights is questionable and debatable, knowing more techniques is debatable as well. You know what's not debatable though? Roshi flat out stating Goku's is a better martial artist than himself to the point he even takes and improves on his (Roshi) own teaching in areas he lacked in.

[TKA]

Though it seems unlikely given how quickly Vegeta dismissed Cabba when he needed him the most. Actually, their relationship seems pretty one-sided given how oddly cold senpai Vegeta is to kouhai Cabba-kun.

That's definitely just tough love on Vegeta's part. He clearly cares about the kid, but he's still aloof Vegeta.

[LightBing]

This is the same Goku that learned the Kamehameha by looking at it. Roshi took 50 years.

Just want to point out Muten Roshi didn't took 50 years learning the Kamehameha, he took 50 years creating it. That's a big difference!

[ssj3kakarot]

This is the same Goku that learned the Kamehameha by looking at it. Roshi took 50 years.

Just want to point out Muten Roshi didn't took 50 years learning the Kamehameha, he took 50 years creating it. That's a big difference!

Fair. But my point is Goku is leagues ahead of Roshi, even in Dragon ball. I brought that up to emphasize that Goku easily has more techniques that Roshi.

[prince212]

Though it seems unlikely given how quickly Vegeta dismissed Cabba when he needed him the most. Actually, their relationship seems pretty one-sided given how oddly cold senpai Vegeta is to kouhai Cabba-kun.

That's definitely just tough love on Vegeta's part. He clearly cares about the kid, but he's still aloof Vegeta.

At some point Beerus showing care about people has some kind of similarities, just watch him and Champa .
He cared by wishing something on his behalf , but didn’t make a show about it neither want anybody to know about it .