"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:10 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Only if its done in a meaningful way. In Super it was fan service for the sake of fan service, just incredibly masturbatory, appealing to the lowest common denominator. Comparing the ToP to One Piece is an absolute joke.
Except for the most part it was done in a meaningful way, otherwise so many characters introduced in Super wouldn't have become fan favorites. These characters before their introduction didn't even have a fandom, so how can given them spotlight be 'fan service'? So it's really disingenuous to say Super was fan service for the sake of it and it's only popular because of the lowers common denominator, especially when I can make the same argument for everything in Dragon Ball. In fact, many anime sees Dragon Ball as the 'lowest common denominator' in terms of anime quality.

And comparing almost anything in Dragon Ball is a joke to One Piece when it comes to storytelling because Oda is a hell of a lot better than Toriyama when it comes to story.

Overall, 'fan service' have become a nothing term around here since like most things here it has become shorthand, 'stuff I don't like'.
Last edited by HeroR on Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:14 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: If Goku remembered his teachings, he would of tapped into UI during Whis explanation on it himself. Which resembled his past principles. This was the whole point of Roshi reminding Goku. So it's not a regression or inconsistency but a continued plot point.
How would Roshi even know what was taught to Goku beyond Korin? Roshi's knowledge should but go so far, since he hasn't trained with or experienced the type of training Goku's received in the first place.
Did you not read that Karin was also in the teaching principles pertaining to UI? All the god's teachings were related.
That's fine and dandy, but doesn't explain how Roshi would know that as he's only trained with one of those masters, Korin. He's never trained with any "Gods" in the DB universe, so how would he know what their teachings entail?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:16 pm

Bergamo wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: If Goku remembered his teachings, he would of tapped into UI during Whis explanation on it himself. Which resembled his past principles. This was the whole point of Roshi reminding Goku. So it's not a regression or inconsistency but a continued plot point.
How would Roshi even know what was taught to Goku beyond Korin? Roshi's knowledge should but go so far, since he hasn't trained with or experienced the type of training Goku's received in the first place.
Goku probably told Roshi about his training with his other masters. He was training with Roshi a few months prior during the FT arc. It's never explained who told Roshi about Goku's masters, but it's also not unreasonable Goku would have said something. This is called suspension of disbelief.
So Goku was able to tell Roshi in depth what he was taught by all of his masters including Whis, yet somehow conveniently forgets them... That's a hell of a lot of suspension of belief. :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:38 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
reecehoward wrote: How would Roshi even know what was taught to Goku beyond Korin? Roshi's knowledge should but go so far, since he hasn't trained with or experienced the type of training Goku's received in the first place.
Goku probably told Roshi about his training with his other masters. He was training with Roshi a few months prior during the FT arc. It's never explained who told Roshi about Goku's masters, but it's also not unreasonable Goku would have said something. This is called suspension of disbelief.
So Goku was able to tell Roshi in depth what he was taught by all of his masters including Whis, yet somehow conveniently forgets them... That's a hell of a lot of suspension of belief. :lol:
I think that was not about roshi remembering something to goku , it was more about roshi telling goku to remember the basics of his masters leassons , how to look into himself and don’t get trapped into the view of the enemy .
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:41 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
reecehoward wrote: How would Roshi even know what was taught to Goku beyond Korin? Roshi's knowledge should but go so far, since he hasn't trained with or experienced the type of training Goku's received in the first place.
Goku probably told Roshi about his training with his other masters. He was training with Roshi a few months prior during the FT arc. It's never explained who told Roshi about Goku's masters, but it's also not unreasonable Goku would have said something. This is called suspension of disbelief.
So Goku was able to tell Roshi in depth what he was taught by all of his masters including Whis, yet somehow conveniently forgets them... That's a hell of a lot of suspension of belief. :lol:
1. I was more referring to Goku telling Roshi about mastery of self movement, because he had trained with king kai 15 years ago or something, so there's no reason he would have never mentioned anything to Roshi and then gave an in depth confessional about everything he had ever learned before asking Roshi to teach him the mafuba.

2. Goku obviously knows what his teachers taught him. It's not like Goku forgot about his training with his masters. He even uses the Kaioken in the same chapter. It was more that Goku didn't see how everything all lead up to Ultra Instinct.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:47 pm

HeroR wrote: And that’s a bad thing? One Piece is much better written show than all of Z. Given characters spotlight instead of tossing them in the trash when they’re not needed anymore isn’t a negative or ‘fan-service’. It gives a character depth, something Z lack a lot of the time.
Toyo is trying to tell a story, not do an individual character spotlight. That's what I've always appreciated about the story elements of DB in general, it was simple but organic. There were internal fuck-ups on both the good and evil/antagonistic sides. The only time when I think the payoff didn't match the build-up in this saga so far was with Kefla.
sintzu wrote:
Both Nappa and Ginyu caused major damage before their deaths, especially Nappa killing Piccolo and Tien who at the time were very, very strong fighters. I do agree that Dabura was underutilized and could've been handled much better.

We did need that and if anything we didn't get enough. If they were going to introduce all these characters then the least they could do was use them. I may not have agreed with how Toei handled everything but at least they tried to give everyone some screen time. Before the manga started the tournament I knew it couldn't give 80 characters relevant screen time as it's simply too much for the format but I did expect a handful to be treated just as good if not better than the anime but it couldn't even do that.
Toppo fulfilled his role as the hype man at the exhibition match. I mentioned a while back that his primary role was to antagonize U7 from the start and cast doubt upon their chances at victory, having the 'second' strongest being a match even for CSSB Goku. That's more than what I could say for the likes of Dabura, arguably even against Nappa and Ginyu too because it was freaking Goku and it was a closer match.

While it may be argued better for Dyspo's case, in terms of manga attention and secondary role, Toppo has had enough screen time. Through his elimination, we saw more into what kind of a person Jiren really is and what he thinks of his comrades. And by DB standards, that was more than enough. I don't think people would have complained less if we had a dedicated chapter to Vegeta and Toppo's battle but it ultimately ended up the same way. It's not about screen time, it's about how the character was handled. But I personally like how Toppo was used for Jiren's development, and not as a false prophet GoD who only served to give Vegeta another useless fanservice moment.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:58 pm

Rakurai wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:OMG Toppo and Dyspo not being able to jump that small gap was hilarious. Couldn't Toppo just throw Dyspo towards the stage? The way that the second, third and fourth (the cyborg dude that was knocked by Roshi) strongest warriors of U11 were defeated reminded me of Hanna Barbera's cartoonish villains.
You'd think Toppo being the 2nd antagonist would've gotten something but nope, just blown away by Vegeta powering up as if he were a Yamcha or Raditz. Toyotaro did an amazing job on the Black arc so it's a shame to see such a drop in quality now. Hopefully things will pick up again once he gets to Broly as I've read that's one of his best characters so hopefully his work will be as well.
Nappa was the secondary antagonist of the Saiyan saga and went down like he was low-level trash against his own companion.

Ginyu was the second most powerful after Frieza and we never even got to see him fight properly. Humiliated by Krillin in Goku's very own body, no less.

Dabura was the second most powerful after Buu and he got the Nappa treatment but worse, he wasn't even worth looking at by Babidi after Buu was resurrected.

Not sure how Toppo's role fared worse against these villains, he wasn't treated like fodder the entire time. Especially since his demise was important to the characterization of Jiren.

Really, the way that Toei handled the ToP felt more like One Piece than it did Dragon Ball, with all the villains getting their own dedicated chapter/episode to show their stuff as part of character fanservice. That's my gripe with the anime, we didn't need that, we just needed a story that feels more natural and not fanservice-like.
In an ideal world, the definitive TOP should've been the Manga way (battle Royale, everyone is a fodder) up until Ch 38 and then the Anime way moving fowards (dedicated one to one battles with some backstory).

We didn't need an episode of Krillin and A18 teaming up, we didn't need an episode of Tien vs the sniper and we didn't need an episode of the U6 Namekians so Toyotaro was right in disposing of them all quickly but come on!!! Kefla and Gohan double KO? Toppo and Dyspo getting eliminated like cartoon characters? Roshi OHK the cyborg dude then getting OHK by Jiren?

In hindsight, I would've preferred a Saiyan Saga homage with Jiren ruthlessly ringing out Toppo while mocking him for being weak in the same way that Vegeta ruthlessly killed Nappa. But nah, this chapter has been the worst one ever.

FFS Toyotaro, you had ONE job: deliver an awesome finale to the TOP.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:06 am

Rakurai wrote: The only time when I think the payoff didn't match the build-up in this saga so far was with Kefla.
Yeap , kefla had a great build up but her conclusion was ... nothing to me .
She just gave me a good conclusion to gohan (fight development towards his own side) ,who didn’t have a good build-up at all ..
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:53 am

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote: How would Roshi even know what was taught to Goku beyond Korin? Roshi's knowledge should but go so far, since he hasn't trained with or experienced the type of training Goku's received in the first place.
Did you not read that Karin was also in the teaching principles pertaining to UI? All the god's teachings were related.
That's fine and dandy, but doesn't explain how Roshi would know that as he's only trained with one of those masters, Korin. He's never trained with any "Gods" in the DB universe, so how would he know what their teachings entail?
Cause in Goku's memories, he remembered Karins words in relation to UI too. The very same master that taught Roshi.
Last edited by Miracles on Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:03 am

Rakurai wrote:Toppo has had enough screen time. Through his elimination, we saw more into what kind of a person Jiren really is and what he thinks of his comrades. And by DB standards, that was more than enough.
Shouldn't DB's standards be trying to evolve and be better ? Regardless, DB's standards in regards to Toppo were already set in the anime and the manga failed to live up to them. I don't see how Toppo being used as a tool for Jiren was better than him being his own character in the anime.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:45 am

Neither version of the TOP is ideal or lives up in any way to the premise in which the arc was based on, that being an 8 way battle royale between 80 fighters. Neither did a good job of capturing the chaos a battle royale entitles, either due to them brushing past it as quickly as possible, or extending it for so long and going through each and every warrior individually.

As for which is definitevely better, thats also not cut and dry either sadly. They're both terrible, it just depends on which kind of disaster you prefer.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:27 am

Rakurai wrote:
HeroR wrote: And that’s a bad thing? One Piece is much better written show than all of Z. Given characters spotlight instead of tossing them in the trash when they’re not needed anymore isn’t a negative or ‘fan-service’. It gives a character depth, something Z lack a lot of the time.
Toyo is trying to tell a story, not do an individual character spotlight. That's what I've always appreciated about the story elements of DB in general, it was simple but organic. There were internal fuck-ups on both the good and evil/antagonistic sides. The only time when I think the payoff didn't match the build-up in this saga so far was with Kefla.
sintzu wrote:
Both Nappa and Ginyu caused major damage before their deaths, especially Nappa killing Piccolo and Tien who at the time were very, very strong fighters. I do agree that Dabura was underutilized and could've been handled much better.

We did need that and if anything we didn't get enough. If they were going to introduce all these characters then the least they could do was use them. I may not have agreed with how Toei handled everything but at least they tried to give everyone some screen time. Before the manga started the tournament I knew it couldn't give 80 characters relevant screen time as it's simply too much for the format but I did expect a handful to be treated just as good if not better than the anime but it couldn't even do that.
Toppo fulfilled his role as the hype man at the exhibition match. I mentioned a while back that his primary role was to antagonize U7 from the start and cast doubt upon their chances at victory, having the 'second' strongest being a match even for CSSB Goku. That's more than what I could say for the likes of Dabura, arguably even against Nappa and Ginyu too because it was freaking Goku and it was a closer match.

While it may be argued better for Dyspo's case, in terms of manga attention and secondary role, Toppo has had enough screen time. Through his elimination, we saw more into what kind of a person Jiren really is and what he thinks of his comrades. And by DB standards, that was more than enough. I don't think people would have complained less if we had a dedicated chapter to Vegeta and Toppo's battle but it ultimately ended up the same way. It's not about screen time, it's about how the character was handled. But I personally like how Toppo was used for Jiren's development, and not as a false prophet GoD who only served to give Vegeta another useless fanservice moment.
Characters are part of trying to tell a story, they're not two different things. Even when Toriyama makes throw away characters like the Ginyu Force, they're treated with more respect than Toyo gives his version of the characters, and this is including characters who are supposed to be the main focused.

You can appreciate an aspect of someone's storytelling, but to say that given characters spotlight is 'filler' is eyerolling because if you don't build up characters, why should we give a damn about what happens to anyone? Oh, Jiren let his teammates fall out of the ring.....who gives a damn since the manga made sure we the audience are apathetic. Trunks' entire timeline got wiped.....who cares? Toyo made sure we didn't care and neither did the characters in the story.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:34 am

JazzMazz wrote:Neither version of the TOP is ideal or lives up in any way to the premise in which the arc was based on, that being an 8 way battle royale between 80 fighters. Neither did a good job of capturing the chaos a battle royale entitles, either due to them brushing past it as quickly as possible, or extending it for so long and going through each and every warrior individually.

As for which is definitevely better, thats also not cut and dry either sadly. They're both terrible, it just depends on which kind of disaster you prefer.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:38 am

Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:36 am

Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
These people don't deserve attention. I hope Toyotarõ gets this or has someone telling him so.

Also on topic, do people who come here or any other thread to say "I hate this" have no self-awareness? Imagine that scenario in real-life, you wouldn't go to a football match and say "this sport is trash". You wouldn't go to someone birthday party to say" I hate Steve, he's been awful in every year of his life."
That's not a contribution. Can a mod please clear up their view on this?

To be perfectly clear I'm not saying don't criticize the manga or anything else, however when your input is "I hate modern Dragon Ball" you're not looking for a conversation but validation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:33 pm

Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
I am actually surprised it's just the french. There is so much bitching about the manga on Youtube, twitter and reddit that this kind of stupidity doesn't surprise me. Yes, you can hate the manga, even I have some major problems with it, but it would never cross my mind to go and threat the creator or start bitching about how he should lose his job. Some people are just idiots. This forum is pretty much the only kinda normal place to talk DB, other than that the DB fanbase is sometimes just pathetic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:40 pm

Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
Uh Oh, people are mad cause Toyotaro didn't show Krillin vs a blind Rocket Raccoon for 20 pages. :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pokesamus217 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:57 pm

Miracles wrote:
Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
Uh Oh, people are mad cause Toyotaro didn't show Krillin vs a blind Rocket Raccoon for 20 pages. :lol:
Or the fact that the manga has completely wasted the entire premis of this story arc, along with having most of its characters end up being either completely pointless, or detailed from what we’ve seen of them before.

I don’t think that people should be harassing Toyo for this, but don’t act like there isn’t anything worth complaining about here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:54 pm

HeroR wrote:And that’s a bad thing? One Piece is much better written show than all of Z. Given characters spotlight instead of tossing them in the trash when they’re not needed anymore isn’t a negative or ‘fan-service’. It gives a character depth, something Z lack a lot of the time.
Yes, that's a bad thing. One Piece is a bad series. Now you can disagree with me if you want on that. I'm just letting you know it's a pretty bad show and that you calling it good and Dragonball bad is as meaningless as me telling you I think OP is bottom of the barrel garbage.

Now here's something that has actual meaning:

"Throwing away" characters isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, despite the negative connotations implicit in that term. Some characters are better in small doses, some characters are better when their character arcs end, etc. Toriyama is smart in that he moves characters to the background instead of keeping them onscreen because he feels some misguided need to "feature" them or "give them spotlight." Characters should only be around when they can be in service to the story being told. Characters should only be focused upon when they enhance the story being told.

I have a strong distaste for One Piece because so much of it is superfluous drivel. There's an old adage in show biz that goes "If you can't make it good, at least make it short." One Piece isn't good, but Oda sure is keeping it going instead of ending it. At least Toriyama had the decency to end Dragonball much sooner since you think it's so inferior to ol' One Piece, right? :thumbup:
HeroR wrote:otherwise so many characters introduced in Super wouldn't have become fan favorites.
Broly is a fan favorite. Janemba is a fan favorite. Cooler is a fan favorite.

All three of them are shallow as shit characters. If there's one thing DB's fandom has proven over the years, it's that "argumentum ad populum" is still a logical fallacy. How many people like or gravitate to a character has little more to do with than just the strength of the character. Stuff like the animation, or voice acting play a huge role in how characters in animation are received. The writing of the characters in the tournament of power and in anime super at large is often contradictory, illogical or hackneyed.

I don't care which bandwagon the twitter generation latches on to.
LightBing wrote:
To be perfectly clear I'm not saying don't criticize the manga or anything else, however when your input is "I hate modern Dragon Ball" you're not looking for a conversation but validation.
I was about to reply to you and say "even though I don't enjoy reading through those negative nancy posts, they're still valuable. This is a forum, forums are meant for discussion. Even if you don't agree with them, it's important that both sides be heard so that meaningful exchange of ideas and perspectives can be done."

However, you're absolutely right about that last bit and that sums things up perfectly. There've been users who are afraid to comment and who actively avoid this thread just because people are so zealously negative in their treatment of the manga each month. I personally feel it goes beyond the realm of just criticism when you have people comment stuff like "The DBS manga does its monthly job of making the anime look good." That shit is stupid and doesn't help anyone.
reecehoward wrote: So Goku was able to tell Roshi in depth what he was taught by all of his masters including Whis, yet somehow conveniently forgets them... That's a hell of a lot of suspension of belief. :lol:
Uhm. What? That isn't at all what happened.

Roshi told Goku to remember the basic lesson all his masters have taught him. Goku then pieced it together in his head and it was illustrated for us. Roshi gave him the vague advice to look to his previous experiences, and then Goku pieced it all together himself.

--------------------------------------------------

I try to ignore these cyclical discussions, but since I ended up talking about the Roshi thing, I might as well address it.

Roshi is absolutely more experienced than Goku. He's been around longer. His techniques are also more esoteric and specific than Goku's. Goku is stronger, has fought and defeated stronger warriors, and trained with stronger people but it's ridiculous to say he's more experienced than Roshi. Roshi is literally hundreds of years older than him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:21 pm

Pokesamus217 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
Uh Oh, people are mad cause Toyotaro didn't show Krillin vs a blind Rocket Raccoon for 20 pages. :lol:
Or the fact that the manga has completely wasted the entire premis of this story arc, along with having most of its characters end up being either completely pointless, or detailed from what we’ve seen of them before.

I don’t think that people should be harassing Toyo for this, but don’t act like there isn’t anything worth complaining about here.
Oh sure, I complained about Toppo and Dyspo. However, to say the manga had pointless character usage is incorrect. I thought Krillin and Tien served a greater purpose in the story. Was even used to demonstrate another characters attributes.
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