"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:05 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:Goku needing more power is NOT a mistake. The WAY he went about it was the problem. It is vintage Goku to risk his body's well being for more power. This is not regression but continuation.
So he should get more power from learning how to dodge? Man come on, you all can't be serious. Everybody is trying to rationalize the "deep" meaning in that exchange when it was just another instance of Toyo trying to write something more complex than he has the writing chops for. If he's gonna remind him of his master's teachings, his pseudo Kaioken was a core lesson from King Kai, which defeats that point. Ironically, King Kai is the master he trained with the longest... So Roshi, in actual reality, only confirms his path is right by bringing up his old masters. King Kai is right in the corner of that panel, like he didn't teach Goku to "risk his body" as you say.
The point was Goku tried to access UI [That power]. All his past teachings was similar to Whis teachings on how to access UI. It wasn't about movement but about the state of Goku's spirit.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:02 pm

HeroR wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
HeroR wrote:
We don’t know if he kept training with King Kai for those seven years when dead. And he used King Kai’s planet as a gym, not training directly under him. Also, he only got six months for the Saiyans. He spent the first six months on Snake Way.
Which is why I said "or at least under his guidance". We know this much from the Buu saga when he was training with those weights attached to his limbs. It would be totally unreasonable to believe that King Kai doesn't give him pointers during his training.
It’s more likely he just gave him the weights. And in Super, Goku went to Roshi at least twice to train. Evil Containment Wave.
Think about what you are saying for a second. Goku has access to all manner of places to do solo training, yet even as recent as BoG, he was still training on King Kai's planet. Why would he do that if he weren't still getting some manner of advice or tips? He could just as easily go to the gravity chamber or RoSaT for the same effect of being on Kai's planet. That's I why I say it's unreasonable to believe that King Kai's not giving him some type of advice. It could very well be minor shit, but is it unreasonable to believe it's not happening?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:05 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:Goku needing more power is NOT a mistake. The WAY he went about it was the problem. It is vintage Goku to risk his body's well being for more power. This is not regression but continuation.
So he should get more power from learning how to dodge? Man come on, you all can't be serious. Everybody is trying to rationalize the "deep" meaning in that exchange when it was just another instance of Toyo trying to write something more complex than he has the writing chops for. If he's gonna remind him of his master's teachings, his pseudo Kaioken was a core lesson from King Kai, which defeats that point. Ironically, King Kai is the master he trained with the longest... So Roshi, in actual reality, only confirms his path is right by bringing up his old masters. King Kai is right in the corner of that panel, like he didn't teach Goku to "risk his body" as you say.
The point was Goku tried to access UI [That power]. All his past teachings was similar to Whis teachings on how to access UI. It wasn't about movement but about the state of Goku's spirit.
Read Doctor's comment
Doctor. wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:Goku needing more power is NOT a mistake. The WAY he went about it was the problem. It is vintage Goku to risk his body's well being for more power. This is not regression but continuation.
So he should get more power from learning how to dodge? Man come on, you all can't be serious. Everybody is trying to rationalize the "deep" meaning in that exchange when it was just another instance of Toyo trying to write something more complex than he has the writing chops for. If he's gonna remind him of his master's teachings, his pseudo Kaioken was a core lesson from King Kai, which defeats that point. Ironically, King Kai is the master he trained with the longest... So Roshi, in actual reality, only confirms his path is right by bringing up his old masters. King Kai is right in the corner of that panel, like he didn't teach Goku to "risk his body" as you say.
Yes, trying to tie together all of the teachings of Goku's previous masters is stupid because they all taught him different things. It's an attempt at trying to reconcile things when they don't fit together. I see that Toyotaro is trying to appeal to some sense of unity and trying to pass this off like the series has been building up to something this whole time, but it falls flat because there's not a thing that these masters share together. It's why I keep saying that I get what he's trying to do, but I'm not gonna swallow up some bullshit simply because I understand his intention, which seems to be the general philosophy of the people who defend this poor excuse for a comic; if it's poorly presented, poorly developed and poorly executed, then it deserves to be called out.

Roshi being the one to teach this lesson to Goku is especially dumb considering he never actually taught him any proper martial arts. None. It's Roshi because of course it's Roshi, he's Goku's first master, gotta appeal to the nostalgia.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:22 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote: So he should get more power from learning how to dodge? Man come on, you all can't be serious. Everybody is trying to rationalize the "deep" meaning in that exchange when it was just another instance of Toyo trying to write something more complex than he has the writing chops for. If he's gonna remind him of his master's teachings, his pseudo Kaioken was a core lesson from King Kai, which defeats that point. Ironically, King Kai is the master he trained with the longest... So Roshi, in actual reality, only confirms his path is right by bringing up his old masters. King Kai is right in the corner of that panel, like he didn't teach Goku to "risk his body" as you say.
The point was Goku tried to access UI [That power]. All his past teachings was similar to Whis teachings on how to access UI. It wasn't about movement but about the state of Goku's spirit.
Read Doctor's comment
Doctor. wrote:
reecehoward wrote: So he should get more power from learning how to dodge? Man come on, you all can't be serious. Everybody is trying to rationalize the "deep" meaning in that exchange when it was just another instance of Toyo trying to write something more complex than he has the writing chops for. If he's gonna remind him of his master's teachings, his pseudo Kaioken was a core lesson from King Kai, which defeats that point. Ironically, King Kai is the master he trained with the longest... So Roshi, in actual reality, only confirms his path is right by bringing up his old masters. King Kai is right in the corner of that panel, like he didn't teach Goku to "risk his body" as you say.
Yes, trying to tie together all of the teachings of Goku's previous masters is stupid because they all taught him different things. It's an attempt at trying to reconcile things when they don't fit together. I see that Toyotaro is trying to appeal to some sense of unity and trying to pass this off like the series has been building up to something this whole time, but it falls flat because there's not a thing that these masters share together. It's why I keep saying that I get what he's trying to do, but I'm not gonna swallow up some bullshit simply because I understand his intention, which seems to be the general philosophy of the people who defend this poor excuse for a comic; if it's poorly presented, poorly developed and poorly executed, then it deserves to be called out.

Roshi being the one to teach this lesson to Goku is especially dumb considering he never actually taught him any proper martial arts. None. It's Roshi because of course it's Roshi, he's Goku's first master, gotta appeal to the nostalgia.
Doctor is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:35 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: The point was Goku tried to access UI [That power]. All his past teachings was similar to Whis teachings on how to access UI. It wasn't about movement but about the state of Goku's spirit.
Read Doctor's comment
Doctor. wrote: Yes, trying to tie together all of the teachings of Goku's previous masters is stupid because they all taught him different things. It's an attempt at trying to reconcile things when they don't fit together. I see that Toyotaro is trying to appeal to some sense of unity and trying to pass this off like the series has been building up to something this whole time, but it falls flat because there's not a thing that these masters share together. It's why I keep saying that I get what he's trying to do, but I'm not gonna swallow up some bullshit simply because I understand his intention, which seems to be the general philosophy of the people who defend this poor excuse for a comic; if it's poorly presented, poorly developed and poorly executed, then it deserves to be called out.

Roshi being the one to teach this lesson to Goku is especially dumb considering he never actually taught him any proper martial arts. None. It's Roshi because of course it's Roshi, he's Goku's first master, gotta appeal to the nostalgia.
Doctor is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
And the results of his trainings with King Kai was what? Spirit Bomb, increased power and speed(power level) AND Kaioken...the same principle Roshi is berating him for in ch 39.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:24 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Read Doctor's comment
Doctor is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
And the results of his trainings with King Kai was what? Spirit Bomb, increased power and speed(power level) AND Kaioken...the same principle Roshi is berating him for in ch 39.
Goku had to train his spirit as well as his body while training with King Kai. The entire point of the arc was that Goku was much weaker than Vegeta, but he was able to defeat him using techniques like Kaioken and Spirit Bomb.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Read Doctor's comment
Doctor is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
And the results of his trainings with King Kai was what? Spirit Bomb, increased power and speed(power level) AND Kaioken...the same principle Roshi is berating him for in ch 39.
Roshi wasn't berating Goku for body strength but solely being caught up in it. Kaiosama told Goku to also train his spirit not just the body if he wanted to be the best.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:02 pm

You’ll never enjoy any story if you see things only in extremes. Life isn’t all black and white. Roshi can disapprove of Goku’s methods without treating him like a brain-damaged toddler upstart. So many seem to think he was talking down to Goku in that interaction...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:54 pm

TKA wrote:You’ll never enjoy any story if you see things only in extremes. Life isn’t all black and white. Roshi can disapprove of Goku’s methods without treating him like a brain-damaged toddler upstart. So many seem to think he was talking down to Goku in that interaction...
The way it's written is why people think that. You can minimize and accept it if you want, but it doesn't change what's actually there in context. I can enjoy a story as long as it doesn't go too far insulting my intelligence.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:03 pm

TKA wrote:You’ll never enjoy any story if you see things only in extremes. Life isn’t all black and white. Roshi can disapprove of Goku’s methods without treating him like a brain-damaged toddler upstart. So many seem to think he was talking down to Goku in that interaction...
Condescension is the usual perception if you're giving advice to someone while calling them an idiot("half-baked") and a newb("green as the day we met").

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:54 pm

Miracles wrote:Doctor. is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
No, he isn't. Goku was taught about mind and movement by his previous masters before, it is indeed regression.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:48 pm

Noah wrote:
Miracles wrote:Doctor. is wrong too cause all the teachings were the same. They all had to do with mind and movement.
No, he isn't. Goku was taught about mind and movement by his previous masters before, it is indeed regression.
Who is saying Goku was not taught these things before?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:52 pm

Simere wrote: Condescension is the usual perception if you're giving advice to someone while calling them an idiot("half-baked") and a newb("green as the day we met").
But... that's Roshi's character. He's a laid back, trickster mentor archetype. He's talking casually to Goku in a serious moment. It's clear that he doesn't consider himself better, or consider Goku to be lacking. That's why he said something vague—because he knows Goku is good enough to instantly figure out what he meant and implement.

Which he did. And immediately better than Roshi ever could.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:30 pm

No idea why people are interpreting Roshi's "condescension" as anything more than lighthearted bantz, which is completely typical for the character. He wouldn't have bequeathed his advice in the first place if he didn't obviously think his former student could beat Jiren.

If we're going to fret over the exact word choice, we should also probably understand that these statements were potentially translated with some degree of artistic liberty.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:14 am

Marlowe89 wrote:No idea why people are interpreting Roshi's "condescension" as anything more than lighthearted bantz, which is completely typical for the character. He wouldn't have bequeathed his advice in the first place if he didn't obviously think his former student could beat Jiren.

If we're going to fret over the exact word choice, we should also probably understand that these statements were potentially translated with some degree of artistic liberty.
That leads into a lot of my issues with some of the people who bitch about the manga: That any story element that views any of these characters (especially Goku and Vegeta) in a negative light is bad, a regression and betrayal of the their characters and blah blah blah

How dare Roshi criticize Space-Monkey Jesus? THAT IS AN OUUUUTRAGE!!!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:26 pm

I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point. Not only did Toyotaro completely ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.
Last edited by ricky84 on Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:29 pm

prince212 wrote:Evolving in his own style is the best development that vegeta can have I.m.o , I’m tired of him following goku steps .
Hopefully this would lead him to new techniques, I assume he won’t surpass goku , but at least he’d go in a different route , with or without cabba :D
I can take a couple of arcs without him or separate adventures without goku , they should take advantage of this many universes .
Also the scope of all what’s happening is different is you read all together , some don’t realize about how connected the last two chapters are with the thematic of goku and vegeta personalities, so different and so similar, his anger to have good enemies or be the strongest sometimes makes it for them harder to see their own realities , but both of them realized the correct path to evolve .
The anime handled this much better than the manga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ricky84 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:35 pm

batistabus wrote:Vegeta's words are not the problem with this scene. If anything, they're the saving grace. All of this nonsense about character assassination is beyond ridiculous. It seems like people want a version of Vegeta that is so mature and level-headed that he no longer bears resemblance to what makes Vegeta distinct. If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball. Just because he acknowledges Goku as better in the Boo arc, that doesn't mean he he's perfectly happy being second best. If that were the case, Super would not be able to exist in its current form. Even if he understands that he is, in reality, not superior, he believes that he can and should be.

Vegeta has been eating his failures one after another up to this point in Super. Here we see a tipping point. I don't like that it resulted in a transformation (if you can even call it that), but character-wise, it's totally appropriate.

Based on this scene, however, it does seem that Vegeta should no longer train with Whis in the future. We'll see if that ends up being the case.
That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:42 pm

ricky84 wrote:
batistabus wrote:Vegeta's words are not the problem with this scene. If anything, they're the saving grace. All of this nonsense about character assassination is beyond ridiculous. It seems like people want a version of Vegeta that is so mature and level-headed that he no longer bears resemblance to what makes Vegeta distinct. If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball. Just because he acknowledges Goku as better in the Boo arc, that doesn't mean he he's perfectly happy being second best. If that were the case, Super would not be able to exist in its current form. Even if he understands that he is, in reality, not superior, he believes that he can and should be.

Vegeta has been eating his failures one after another up to this point in Super. Here we see a tipping point. I don't like that it resulted in a transformation (if you can even call it that), but character-wise, it's totally appropriate.

Based on this scene, however, it does seem that Vegeta should no longer train with Whis in the future. We'll see if that ends up being the case.
That's a poor attempt to defend what is clearly bad character writing. He didn't act this way in the anime version. He still wants to surpass Goku but he doesn't completely disrespect the people who got him as far as he got.

Its funny how people who make obviously false claims about Vegeta "regressing" in the anime go out of their way to defend an example of real regression in the manga. Double standards from the manga fans.
You can stop with your blanket statements. Vegeta still wants to surpass Goku, and his disrespect of Whis is definitely stupid, but that's called a character flaw.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:47 pm

ricky84 wrote:I'm at a complete loss at how anyone can prefer the manga over the anime at this point. Not only did Toyotaro complete ruined the Black arc but he completely drops the ball in the already flawed ToP arc.
Good luck trying to get fans to realize how poorly written the "Future Trunks" arc was in the manga.lol This current arc doesn't surprise me, as I saw the flaws since the U6 tournament. I never was on the manga is better bandwagon. Toyo has a lot of growing to do as a writer and an artist.

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