"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ricky84]

I personally like SSB in the manga, power drain and all. This is just a difference of opinion, not a malicious bias.

1. Never said it was wrong to prefer it. Doesn't really change the fact that it is practically as useless a form as Ssj3, if not moreso due to having several issues.

It's about as useless as SS3 was in the buu saga, and I love SS3 in the buu saga. Also, SSB was useful in the FT arc in the manga whereas it's never shown to be strong in the anime.

BS. SSB in the anime was essential to every main conflict except Jiren. The only reason SSB seems strong in the manga is because all of the main foes are weaker (and incompetent) compared to their anime counterparts.

For example, Vegeta beating Goku Black in the manga is nothing special because Black himself in the manga was glorified fodder. While Vegeta beating Goku Black in the anime was very impressive because Black in the anime was a highly skilled, dominate fighter with ever growing power that stomped the heroes several times, forced them to retreat 3 times and even at one point was abled to take on 3 SSB level fighters at once.

[Bergamo]

1. Never said it was wrong to prefer it. Doesn't really change the fact that it is practically as useless a form as Ssj3, if not moreso due to having several issues.

It's about as useless as SS3 was in the buu saga, and I love SS3 in the buu saga. Also, SSB was useful in the FT arc in the manga whereas it's never shown to be strong in the anime.

BS. SSB in the anime was essential to every main conflict except Jiren. The only reason SSB seems strong in the manga is because all of the main foes are weaker (and incompetent) compared to their anime counterparts.

For example, Vegeta beating Goku Black in the manga is nothing special because Black himself in the manga was glorified fodder. While Vegeta beating Goku Black in the anime was very impressive because Black in the anime was a highly skilled, dominate fighter with ever growing power that stomped the heroes several times, forced them to retreat 3 times and even at one point was abled to take on 3 SSB level fighters at once.

1. The villains only seem more competent because Goku is even more incompetent. Forgetting senzu beans and not even doing the mafuba? Really?

2. Just because Goku doesn't fight Black 80 times before someone finally beats him up doesn't make him a better villain. Also, when someone does beat Black, he just gets stronger and uses time clones or whatever.

[Hawk9211]

I don’t about anyone else,but I am tired of more than half replies being about anime/manga fans,Toyotaro being a hack with the same repeated arguments by the same people.

[ricky84]

It's about as useless as SS3 was in the buu saga, and I love SS3 in the buu saga. Also, SSB was useful in the FT arc in the manga whereas it's never shown to be strong in the anime.

BS. SSB in the anime was essential to every main conflict except Jiren. The only reason SSB seems strong in the manga is because all of the main foes are weaker (and incompetent) compared to their anime counterparts.

For example, Vegeta beating Goku Black in the manga is nothing special because Black himself in the manga was glorified fodder. While Vegeta beating Goku Black in the anime was very impressive because Black in the anime was a highly skilled, dominate fighter with ever growing power that stomped the heroes several times, forced them to retreat 3 times and even at one point was abled to take on 3 SSB level fighters at once.

1. The villains only seem more competent because Goku is even more incompetent. Forgetting senzu beans and not even doing the mafuba? Really?

2. Just because Goku doesn't fight Black 80 times before someone finally beats him up doesn't make him a better villain. Also, when someone does beat Black, he just gets stronger and uses time clones or whatever.

1. Bad argument bro. Goku forgetting senzu beans has nothing to do with his actual performance on the battle field. Goku vs Hit in the anime showed far more skill and competence from both characters than their fight in the manga.

2. You just undermined your own opinion. The fact that Black and Hit keep getting stronger just makes it even more impressive when they get beaten compared to the manga.

You don't have to make a character look bad to make another character look good, which is what Toyotaro constantly does. Virtually nothing about the way Hit, Black, M.Zamasu and 95% of the ToP are written in the manga suggest that they are legit challenges to Goku & Vegeta (despite Toyotaro shilling them as such).

[LightBing]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

[BlueBasilisk]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

How many chapters of this arc do we currently have? I feel like there'll be at least one more chapter of fighting before the tournament ends, putting us in roughly the same spot as 128/129 and maybe concluding in November with the victory/epilogue.

[LightBing]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

How many chapters of this arc do we currently have? I feel like there'll be at least one more chapter of fighting before the tournament ends, putting us in roughly the same spot as 128/129 and maybe concluding in November with the victory/epilogue.

13 chapters. The same as the previous arc, next chapter will make this the longest one in Super.

That prediction seems about right..., it's just that there's the Broly movie. Of course we don't know the future of Dragon Ball but at the very minimum teasing the movie in the manga would be excellent advertising, which would need to happen in the November chapter, unless they gave us the December one sooner or something special of that sort.

[BlueBasilisk]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

How many chapters of this arc do we currently have? I feel like there'll be at least one more chapter of fighting before the tournament ends, putting us in roughly the same spot as 128/129 and maybe concluding in November with the victory/epilogue.

13 chapters. The same as the previous arc, next chapter will make this the longest one in Super.

That prediction seems about right..., it's just that there's the Broly movie. Of course we don't know the future of Dragon Ball but at the very minimum teasing the movie in the manga would be excellent advertising, which would need to happen in the November chapter, unless they gave us the December one sooner or something special of that sort.

Yeah, the Broly movie is a tough call. If they waited til the December issue the movie would have been in wide release for a week. What about the Resurrection F manga? Was that released in standard serial format or a special release?

[Bergamo]

BS. SSB in the anime was essential to every main conflict except Jiren. The only reason SSB seems strong in the manga is because all of the main foes are weaker (and incompetent) compared to their anime counterparts.

For example, Vegeta beating Goku Black in the manga is nothing special because Black himself in the manga was glorified fodder. While Vegeta beating Goku Black in the anime was very impressive because Black in the anime was a highly skilled, dominate fighter with ever growing power that stomped the heroes several times, forced them to retreat 3 times and even at one point was abled to take on 3 SSB level fighters at once.

1. The villains only seem more competent because Goku is even more incompetent. Forgetting senzu beans and not even doing the mafuba? Really?

2. Just because Goku doesn't fight Black 80 times before someone finally beats him up doesn't make him a better villain. Also, when someone does beat Black, he just gets stronger and uses time clones or whatever.

1. Bad argument bro. Goku forgetting senzu beans has nothing to do with his actual performance on the battle field. Goku vs Hit in the anime showed far more skill and competence from both characters than their fight in the manga.

2. You just undermined your own opinion. The fact that Black and Hit keep getting stronger just makes it even more impressive when they get beaten compared to the manga.

You don't have to make a character look bad to make another character look good, which is what Toyotaro constantly does. Virtually nothing about the way Hit, Black, M.Zamasu and 95% of the ToP are written in the manga suggest that they are legit challenges to Goku & Vegeta (despite Toyotaro shilling them as such).

You don't have to ruin the pacing of the FT arc to make Black look strong. Besides, Black seemed to just make up abilities and get stronger on the spot, which isn't impressive because of how ludicrous it is. Characters need a reason to get stronger, otherwise the series just becomes dumb brainless action.

[Bergamo]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

How many chapters of this arc do we currently have? I feel like there'll be at least one more chapter of fighting before the tournament ends, putting us in roughly the same spot as 128/129 and maybe concluding in November with the victory/epilogue.

13 chapters. The same as the previous arc, next chapter will make this the longest one in Super.

That prediction seems about right..., it's just that there's the Broly movie. Of course we don't know the future of Dragon Ball but at the very minimum teasing the movie in the manga would be excellent advertising, which would need to happen in the November chapter, unless they gave us the December one sooner or something special of that sort.

There are actually 14 Chapters, and the chapters are longer than in previous arcs, so the arc has been the longest for a bit now.

[LightBing]

Yeah, the Broly movie is a tough call. If they waited til the December issue the movie would have been in wide release for a week. What about the Resurrection F manga? Was that released in standard serial format or a special release?

Pretty sure it was a special release to advertise the movie, the manga didn't exist at that point.

There are actually 14 Chapters, and the chapters are longer than in previous arcs, so the arc has been the longest for a bit now.

You're right counted wrong. There's more pages which amounts to about one extra chapter compared to the Zamasu arc, the page count only increased by 6. Besides the current page count already being present since roughly the midway point of the previous arc.

[kemuri07]

BS. SSB in the anime was essential to every main conflict except Jiren. The only reason SSB seems strong in the manga is because all of the main foes are weaker (and incompetent) compared to their anime counterparts.

For example, Vegeta beating Goku Black in the manga is nothing special because Black himself in the manga was glorified fodder. While Vegeta beating Goku Black in the anime was very impressive because Black in the anime was a highly skilled, dominate fighter with ever growing power that stomped the heroes several times, forced them to retreat 3 times and even at one point was abled to take on 3 SSB level fighters at once.

1. The villains only seem more competent because Goku is even more incompetent. Forgetting senzu beans and not even doing the mafuba? Really?

2. Just because Goku doesn't fight Black 80 times before someone finally beats him up doesn't make him a better villain. Also, when someone does beat Black, he just gets stronger and uses time clones or whatever.

1. Bad argument bro. Goku forgetting senzu beans has nothing to do with his actual performance on the battle field. Goku vs Hit in the anime showed far more skill and competence from both characters than their fight in the manga.

2. You just undermined your own opinion. The fact that Black and Hit keep getting stronger just makes it even more impressive when they get beaten compared to the manga.

You don't have to make a character look bad to make another character look good, which is what Toyotaro constantly does. Virtually nothing about the way Hit, Black, M.Zamasu and 95% of the ToP are written in the manga suggest that they are legit challenges to Goku & Vegeta (despite Toyotaro shilling them as such).

Skill. I don't think that word means what you think it means. I think what you're really on about is how much flash and explosions any given scene can fit moment to moment.

So I'm going to disagree and say that I prefer that Toyotaro actually lends vulnerability to these characters rather than let them operate on God mode all the time. It adds a sense of desperation and tension that the anime doesn't have because it's too busy trying to load up on empty spectacle, while the manga actual lends weight to the beat downs. Sure, manga can't do what anime can do, but I cared more about how the fights are presented in the manga than most of the fights in the anime.

[Miracles]

According to TOEI, Toriyama's outline specifically had everyone's losses down on Universe 7.
I wonder how Toyo will escort Vegeta to the seats.

[Bergamo]

According to TOEI, Toriyama's outline specifically had everyone's losses down on Universe 7.
I wonder how Toyo will escort Vegeta to the seats.

I think Vegeta will sacrifice himself to stop Jiren from ringing out Goku.

[lord turbo]

Goku is a better martial artist in the 23rd Budokai and he is a better martial artist in DBS chapter 39. Also, to think that Roshi lived for over 200 years or something and has had less fights than Goku is ridiculous.

I disagree about him being a better MA post 23rd Budokai, also, you're merely just speculating (wildly at that) about Roshi's experiences compared to Goku with zero proof or basis behind it.

If Goku remembered his teachings, he would of tapped into UI during Whis explanation on it himself. Which resembled his past principles. This was the whole point of Roshi reminding Goku. So it's not a regression or inconsistency but a continued plot point.

This is just poor storytelling, Roshi didn't show anything different than Whis did, nor would he know anything about what Whis (which is different than what Karin taught Goku) taught Goku either, yet when the plot calls for it Goku just does when he remembers he's not a buffoon...? Like I said before, making side characters shine is fine, just don't do it by undermining pre-established lore/hierarchy to push your contrived flawed narrative.

^You didn't prove Goku's character was regressed. You posted an unrelatable image, which is also out of context, talking about teamwork against Radditz . Trying to compare that to Goku actually needing more power with Ultra Instinct to beat Jiren just proves how wrong and desperate you are.

The same situation Goku had against Raditz is happening exactly with Jiren as Raditz and Hit standing in for Piccolo only for Goku to go "Nah, I prefer to fight along against overwhelming enemies" when the stakes are far higher than they were with Raditz. teamwork was greatly stressed as important, but here under Toyotaro's pen Goku is just like "Meh, whatever, I'm going to go do me". What's the point?

Goku needing more power is NOT a mistake. The WAY he went about it was the problem. It is vintage Goku to risk his body's well being for more power. This is not regression but continuation.

So he trades one path for power for another? Also, its hilarious that Roshi is berating him when the entire purpose and point of his training for Goku and Krillin back then was just that, power increasing, lol. Practice what you preach old man. Saying Kaioken is the wrong way since Kaio's training was the same as before, more strength training and power enhancing moves I'm curious what others think Goku's problem is when he's relying exactly on what his previous teachers (Roshi included) drilled in his head or is Toyotaro so bad he does not remember the core point of DB and likes to pretend he does by writing scenes that contradict original DB in some vain attempt at forced contrived development? I say forced and contrived since if author has nowhere else to take a character besides retreading old grounds to show circular development then yeah...not very good.

One more thing, did King Kai actually say that "Train your body and spirit" line in the original manga? I can't recall it like I can for Korin and Mr. Popo/Kami so did Toyotaro literally make that up for Chapter 39?

[prince212]

Predictions for next chapter(s)? Let's get this thread on track.

I expect the conclusion to be everyone is ringed out, the spectators look around and wonder what now. Boulder shakes, a bunch of them fall down raising a dust cloud the figure of #17 slowly forms. Everyone is shocked except #18 who wears a knowingly smile.

No idea about orders, if there's a team effort and how that will occur. I hope Toyotarõ brings his A game to the fight, Merged Zamasu vs Goku was pretty good.

Pretty much we are supposed to know what’s gonna happen , but chapter after chapter we are having surprises, I’m looking forward to those unpredictable differences.
My only prediction is that the tournament will end in a chapter and 1/2

[Miracles]

The same situation Goku had against Raditz is happening exactly with Jiren as Raditz and Hit standing in for Piccolo only for Goku to go "Nah, I prefer to fight along against overwhelming enemies" when the stakes are far higher than they were with Raditz. teamwork was greatly stressed as important, but here under Toyotaro's pen Goku is just like "Meh, whatever, I'm going to go do me". What's the point?

The point is Goku stated Ultra Instinct is the only chance to defeat Jiren. Teamwork had no chance against Jiren unlike it did against Radditz. It's not the same.

Goku needing more power is NOT a mistake. The WAY he went about it was the problem. It is vintage Goku to risk his body's well being for more power. This is not regression but continuation.

So he trades one path for power for another? Also, its hilarious that Roshi is berating him when the entire purpose and point of his training for Goku and Krillin back then was just that, power increasing, lol. Practice what you preach old man. Saying Kaioken is the wrong way since Kaio's training was the same as before, more strength training and power enhancing moves I'm curious what others think Goku's problem is when he's relying exactly on what his previous teachers (Roshi included) drilled in his head or is Toyotaro so bad he does not remember the core point of DB and likes to pretend he does by writing scenes that contradict original DB in some vain attempt at forced contrived development? I say forced and contrived since if author has nowhere else to take a character besides retreading old grounds to show circular development then yeah...not very good.

Roshi wasn't berating Goku for having raw power he was criticizing him for solely depending on it. Goku thinking about the spiritual side of things along with the physical is not a trade but balance.

[Bergamo]

@Lord Turbo
Firstly, I will never actually reply to you because all of your posts are really long and I'm too lazy to cut out excerpts. Sorry.

Saying that Roshi in his 100+ years of martial arts may have fought more battles than Goku in his 40+ years isn't wild speculation, its math. Besides, you saying that I have no proof for something that is not even the core of my argument is pretty useless. Master Roshi has a lot of variety in his techniques(sleepy boy,mafuba, electrokinesis, drunken boxing), so I don't think it's too farfetched that he picked up a dodging technique that Goku can't do. This is also considering he trained under Korrin for 3 years and Korrin emphasized moving without wasting effort.

[kemuri07]

So he trades one path for power for another? Also, its hilarious that Roshi is berating him when the entire purpose and point of his training for Goku and Krillin back then was just that, power increasing, lol. Practice what you preach old man. Saying Kaioken is the wrong way since Kaio's training was the same as before, more strength training and power enhancing moves I'm curious what others think Goku's problem is when he's relying exactly on what his previous teachers (Roshi included) drilled in his head or is Toyotaro so bad he does not remember the core point of DB and likes to pretend he does by writing scenes that contradict original DB in some vain attempt at forced contrived development? I say forced and contrived since if author has nowhere else to take a character besides retreading old grounds to show circular development then yeah...not very good.

1. I think you need to re-read/watch Dragon Ball again. Because it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about.

2. The point of Roshi's training was not to build up Kuririn and Goku's strength through brute force/power ups, but instead focus entirely on technique. Hence why Roshi had them do all those odd jobs, chores and strength training. By the time they made it to the tournament, both Krillin and Goku severely outclassed nearly all of their opponents The point that Roshi is making isn't that being powerful is bad, it's that relying solely on brute force is the wrong way to go about it. Basically, the power level doesn't make the man. And this isn't particularly new even for DBZ. Remember when Captain Ginyu steals Goku's body and gets trounced by Gohan/Kuririn? It's because while he had that raw power, he didn't know how to use it. Remember when Trunks decided to go full power and couldn't even touch Cell because while he was technically more powerful than Cell, he sacrificed all of his speed for power. Shit, even in Super Vegeta taunts Goku Black for not knowing how to use the power of the body he stole properly for the exact same reason. So there is precedent for the exact point that Roshi is trying to make. Essentially Goku is trying to beat Jiren through brute force, and Roshi is reminding him that there's more to it than raw strength. Shit's not that hard to grasp, guys.



Let's bring this more meta shall we? What is the chief complain people often have for DBZ? That as that show went farther long, it stopped being about martial arts and more about who had the higher powerlevel. Whereas Dragonball was absolutely more focused on the martial arts aspect. If anything, Roshi's comments serves as a meta critique of the franchise at large, that as the power creep set in, DBZ became less about technique and more about power levels, rendering anyone who wasn't a Saiyan utterly useless.

[RandomGuy96]

This chapter did handily convince me, along with all the previous ones, that somewhere in Toei is a guy trying to ring every possible trading card, toy, video game DLC, etc. out of Toriyama's outline as humanly possible. I feel like any instance of "character becomes stronger or weaker" in the outline gets turned into a transformation in the anime given the complete lack of all these forms in the manga (and that's not even getting into completely original ones like "controlled LSS Kale", "100% Full Power Frost", "SSG3 Caulifla", "LSS2 Kefla" and so on). Some examples of how the same points are adapted:

"Goku fights Hit with ten times Vegeta's power"
Manga: Vegeta was gassed out because of the flaws of SSB, which are a recurring plot point, so regular SSB Goku was ten times stronger than him.
Anime: new transformation, Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x10

"Trunks gets angry and attacks the Zamasus to save his dad"
Manga: Trunks overpowers Future Zamasu who he's already stronger than, and hits Black while he's off guard to make a distraction, while Black is focused on trying to stop Vegeta and Goku from escaping
Anime: new transformation, Super Saiyan Rage

"Toppo is a GoD candidate with hakai ki that makes him a tough foe for Vegeta and one of the top five strongest guys at the tournament"
Manga: Toppo just switches his god ki on and off invisibly like everyone else, is just that strong
Anime: new transformation, God of Destruction Toppo (even though no one else needs to become a ten-foot tall purple dude to be a GoD)

"Fused Zamasu fights Vegetto and is losing"
Manga: Vegetto hammers Zamasu easily, standard stuff
Anime: new transformations, Mutated Fused Zamasu and Giant Mutated Fused Zamasu.

"Vegeta gets stronger mid-fight and overwhelms Toppo"
Manga: Vegeta gets a rage power-up inside his normal SSB (seemingly obtaining a permanently powered-up version that's nonetheless outwardly identical), calling back to when he did the same thing with his SS2 against Beerus
Anime: new transformation, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

"Jiren goes full power and crushes full-power Goku"
Manga: Jiren just does a standard power-up because he was already established as holding back.
Anime: Jiren becomes stronger mid-fight by unleashing his hidden power and undergoes a transformation which changes his aura, doubles his mass, and makes him a good foot and then some taller

"Gohan restarts his training and becomes full-power SSB level, before vowing to eventually surpass that level in his own unique way"
Manga: Gohan takes Elder Kaioshin's words to heart, rejects the idea of transforming like a Saiyan to get stronger, and chooses to just train his 'Ultimate' base in the future.
Anime: Gohan swears to get a flashy new form no one else has (TBA).