"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:41 pm

batistabus wrote:
The line about the streams around Mt. Paozu reminded me of Bruce Lee's famous water speech.
Same feeling
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:. Goku shooting a Kamehameha through the arena and Jiren holding on from the bottom was awesome.
Yeap it was , so was the previous and the posts of that moment .. Finally a nice fight with no big cuts or out screening.
Just some unnecessary comments from the benches here and there , but this fight really set me in .

Also ..was vegeta the one who said “ 3 minutes remaining” ? Feels weird if so
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:46 pm

Amusing how Jiren told Goku "power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly. You made the very same mistake as that saiyan named Kale earlier," but then he did the same thing this chapter by getting angry and powering up.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:58 pm

Notice the contrast. Jiren angrily powers up while Goku keeps his cool and breathes as he reaches UI's true state. This is why Vegeta couldn't attain UI. It doesn't suit him cause his heart becomes unruly, which is his prideful nature.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:30 pm

TKA wrote:Amusing how Jiren told Goku "power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly. You made the very same mistake as that saiyan named Kale earlier," but then he did the same thing this chapter by getting angry and powering up.
Jiren didn't destroy his body, and he seemed to have no problem wielding his power. His boost was more like Super Vegeta and less like Super Trunks.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:31 pm

I really hope we see the evolved blue vegeta! With pupils!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:37 pm

TKA wrote:Amusing how Jiren told Goku "power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly. You made the very same mistake as that saiyan named Kale earlier," but then he did the same thing this chapter by getting angry and powering up.
In a high stress situation, of course they’ll throw the rules out. Just like Goku did a couple chapters ago. Just like Cell did when he was fighting Trunks and made the same mistakes fighting Gohan. Fight or flight responses are unpredictable.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:53 pm

TheOne wrote:In a high stress situation, of course they’ll throw the rules out.
Yes, of course. The point of my post isn't "lol Jiren so dumb."

It's "Jiren and Goku are pretty similar," with a dash of "Jiren nicely contrasts Goku by tensing up to power up, while Goku is just standing there being more and more tranquil."
Bergamo wrote: Jiren didn't destroy his body, and he seemed to have no problem wielding his power. His boost was more like Super Vegeta and less like Super Trunks.
Eh, don't take it that literally.

I'm just highlighting the contrast between the two this chapter, while also referencing how similar their approaches are.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:49 pm

Three minutes left, huh. Surely means next month is the finale of the ToP, no?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:39 am

Analytical Delusion wrote:Three minutes left, huh. Surely means next month is the finale of the ToP, no?
Hopefully, can't wait for this arc to be over. Let's get to some new stuff.
December 21 should be the start of the broly arc for dbs manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:52 am

So just had a thought: since the stage hasn't really been destroyed, what exactly are Frieza and 17 doing? Just standing around watching this all go down?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:06 am

Am I the only one who didn't enjoy the fight?Too much reactions faces.I still like MZ vs. Goku and god royale better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:32 am

What a chapter! I’ve really not been a fan of much of the manga since the start of the ToP, but this one just felt great.

UI was handled great, it never felt like a regular power up, and instead we find out the only weakness was because Goku wasn’t ready to use it. UI truly perfected will be great to see in the future, and the glimpse we got of it before it started to drain Goku was pretty special, and I can see how this can actually be a final power up in the series when it’s truly mastered.

Jirens character that has been shown throughout the ToP now makes sense, I thought some things seemed off with him, but it was great to see that he’s a total jerk who’s gone about things the wrong way and would never get approval from his master. I also love how his wish is something so pathetic, and selfish. He doesn’t feel like he’s meant to be a truly good person, and as a whole he’s a selfish dick, but instead of just being a regular selfish dick, he’s happy to die if he doesn’t get the praise he wants from his master (he wouldn’t enter the tournament if it wasn’t for the wish). The guys a total broken mess, and it will be great if we get to see him have that moment where he actually accepts that he’s been going about everything wrong. It will be pretty poetic that it will probably be teamwork that beats that teaching into him. Which brings me to the next part that I loved.
Goku and Vegeta. That teamwork at the end is great, and now we know that Whis’ training had a big pay off. Of course they aren’t at full strength, and logically Freeza, and even 17 will be able to go in there and defeat Jiren, but I bet they won’t be consistent and that won’t happen. Either way it was great to see the teamwork that was spoken about in RoF, and the amount of times we know that Whis has been sparring with the two of them has finally led to something. Hopefully we see more of this teamwork in the Broly movie at some point. Overall I genuinely found this chapter great.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:23 am

I'm wondering if future content, after this, is going to explore Jiren's universe.

While Jiren is strong, if he was confident he could take on his master's killer, I suspect he would have done so already. My guess is the Pride Troopers will go after him and Jiren asks Goku along to help?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:07 am

At least I can now appreciate the Roshi scene somewhat. Goku as someone who listens to his masters and takes their lessons to heart, improving himself in the process, contrasts with Jiren, who failed to realize what his master most wanted from him and, as such, hit a wall and failed to get his approval. I still feel it's a stupid catalyst for Goku's UI and a poorly executed scene on its own, but the added purpose is definitely appreciated.

Still waiting for the twist that it was Belmod who killed Gicchin, though. It would make the dynamic between Jiren and Belmod much more interesting in both versions.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:12 am

Observation: When the manga accurately depicts what a battle royale is supposed to be, people got angry and said it was not good.

Now that it's pretty much just a typical dragonball fight with one antagonist vs everyone, people are thinking it's good.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:16 am

TKA wrote:Observation: When the manga accurately depicts what a battle royale is supposed to be, people got angry and said it was not good.

Now that it's pretty much just a typical dragonball fight with one antagonist vs everyone, people are thinking it's good.
The battle royale was good during its opening segments, when it was actually a battle royale: chaotic, unpredictable and constantly shifting perspective. By the time it started narrowing its focus to one or two characters per chapter, that's when people started complaining. Obviously a narrow focus is going to be expected now that there are just a couple of fighters left.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:32 am

Hawk9211 wrote:Am I the only one who didn't enjoy the fight?Too much reactions faces.I still like MZ vs. Goku and god royale better.
No you're not. I breezed through the entire chapter for this very reason.
I felt so bored reading the dialogue I decided to just see if the art/storyboarding was any better. It was somewhat of a step up compared to previous chapters, but it's not a great as the GoD Exhibition Match or any other other fights that precede it.

IMO, it sucks for me to witness what is potentially a great idea for a story arc butchered both by Toei and Toyotaro. It really isn't hard to write something coherent and interesting.
I had hoped for "Toyotaro to save the ToP," but I was completely wrong. The anime seemingly wins this one because I'm speculating the next two chapters may be the end, and at this point I have no hope Toyotaro will do any better than he has been doing for the past months.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:42 am

it was definitely one of the best chapters in this arc. UI manga Goku for me is better cause its more like a techinque, while the anime one is like a transformation. LOL at Goku saying to Vegeta that he doesn't know how he did it. It's like they don't even wanna use this form anymore. Still, this arc is stupid, both in the anime and in the manga. Especially when you realize that it had no stakes. Toriyama should stop with this tournament arcs and make an actual villain. Also, please no old ones or making a movie one canon.

I still don't get it how some people are saying that this tournament is rushed in the manga. It has been running for 10 months now and it will be the longest arc in the manga. If anything I would have rather have seen it end sooner than later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:16 am

Really liked the chapter, after being a bit let down by the previous two.

I really have nothing bad to say about it, for that matter. Even Toyotaro's action, a weak point for Super, is improved. The number of panels could still be cut down, but it's better than the usual, and we have less page-space dedicated to attack wind-ups (possibly to emphasize the dexterity and speed of Ultra Instinct, but this is certainly something I'd like to see continued in general, even outside of the form). At any rate, Goku and Jiren's battle feels suitably powerful and fast, and works in some fun bits of choreography.

Thematically, I like that Ultra Instinct itself is a sort of misdirection--still featuring exploitable weaknesses as the toll on Goku as he reacts automatically to such a strong opponent is too much--and it winds up not even being the biggest lesson Whis intended to teach. This not only pays off on something Whis has been drilling all the way back to "F," but also the main themes of the arc and Beerus and co.'s directive all the way back at the start of the tournament. Jiren, an inherent loner so blind he couldn't see the reason he wasn't accepted by his master, is about to get lesson in teamwork from the biggest assholes in the multiverse.

For one arc in all of Dragon Ball to highlight teamwork in this way, as the main thematic thrust, without sacrificing its devil-may-care attitude for trite moralizing--which I don't at all think this does (again, these are still four of the multiverse's biggest assholes, but they're at least each other's assholes)--works and gives the story line its niche.

I like that Jiren's outburst about exploiting openings not being true strength represents the difference between Goku polishing technique while he goes for pure power.

I even like Vegeta in this chapter! I grow tired of him when he's only brought in for his own big solitary moments, as they inevitably feel like shadows of Goku's, and thus distracting obligations as inclusions. When he's the straight man to the wildcard Goku, though, I wind up liking his role quite a bit, and their banter near the end as they settle on teamwork is enjoyable.

Jiren's backstory--while I did like that the anime left his wish unstated, if nothing else about the way it was executed--is, in addition to dovetailing nicely with the arc thematically, also hilariously goofy Dragon Ball. He isn't a superhero, at heart, but a martial artist forced into the role by his master. And when his master refused to recognize him for reasons he couldn't see to interpret as anything other than insufficient strength, he pursued it to such ridiculous extents that he wound up being the strongest person in the multiverse. That's a perfect backstory for the strongest person in the multiverse in Dragon Ball. There's no deep explanation, no complicated technique--the strongest guy in existence got that way because he misinterpreted his master's intentions and thought that was what he wanted. He thought he needed to get stronger, so he did.

Just a good start to the climax all around. I think, with the exception of Gohan vs. Kafla, this story line really is going to read well as a single-sitting revisit, as previous ones have. Looking forward to seeing how it transitions into the Goku-Freeza-17 finale, as I still assume it will.

Overall one of the best things Toyotaro's done with this arc is to remember that it's a martial-arts story. And with the elements on the table for its climax, it sure doesn't let you forget that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:05 pm

prince212 wrote: No you are not the only one . Toyo went for a “safe” design , I like it , but those sharp raw drafts made me expect an aggressive design change that didn’t come . Still better than make him a muscle man
Goku's physique in the anime has actually been pretty consistent. The only reason why he "looks" like a muscle man is because it's one of the very rare instances, perhaps the first instance, in the Super anime which we see Goku half-naked.

Whereas Toyotaro slimmed Goku down noticeably for both SSG and UI. Maybe it's to follow Toriyama's character sheets more, Idk. I was down for that for SSG since it's a unique transformation (even though there's no precedent for the slimming down reason in universe, out of universe it's obv Toriyama's art style), but for UI it's pretty pointless.

But yeah, I dig the aggressive look.
Marlowe89 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:I was hoping for a more sharper look, based on his V-Jump displays. Like this. Or this.
What's interesting about those drawings is that they're a bit closer to the anime's take, given Goku's intense facial expressions.

Personally, I prefer the manga's version; Goku's blank face feels more in line with Ultra Instinct's Mushin-based concept, and also looks closer to how Toriyama envisioned it. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with either interpretation, but for me, this helps it stand out from the Super Saiyan forms.
That char design was literally taken from his old SSG Goku design for BoG and recolored white. No offense but I don't think Toriyama envisioned any sort of particular look for UI. The Mushin concept is there for sure, but people shouldn't run away with the idea that Toriyama put any particular thought into the design of UI.
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