"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 am

Zephyr wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Co-signing what TKA and Rakurai said. Toyotaro's adaptation may not be purely Toriyama, but given how extensive and well-documented his involvement actually is with the manga as a whole (from art and storytelling to gags and even minute details with characterization) in addition to the idiosyncrasies present in the writing, I'm absolutely certain that it's a much closer approximation to Toriyama's vision than the anime tends to be.
Rakurai wrote:Toriyama credits SSG Vegeta to Toyotarou in the Vol. 4 interview.
A magazine ad for the movie also specifically credits the manga for the form's debut under Vegeta, so I have no clue why people feel the need to downplay its role as an exclusive influence there.
Count me in the same boat. Toriyama's obviously going to do his own thing, and this film should be no exception. There's no reason to suggest that he based the film off of the manga's version of the events.
I feel like you're arguing the exact opposite thing to the posters you're replying to. I'm pretty sure they're saying the the manga DID influence the decision to put God Vegeta in the movie, per what the magazine said.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:27 am

Saiga wrote:I'm pretty sure they're saying the the manga DID influence the decision to put God Vegeta in the movie, per what the magazine said.
I think so, but I also think Zephyr's post (specifically his second paragraph) aligns pretty well with what I was trying to say -- if the film feels more familiar to the manga's version of events rather than the anime's to some viewers/readers, that's certainly no coincidence. If we're going solely by whichever interpretation of the U6/FT/US arcs we can infer is closer to Toriyama's intent, I'd be inclined to say that the manga is the definitive version of Super in a serialized format.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UltraPrimus22 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:34 am

Shadowfox's original claim extends beyond Toriyama simply borrowing an idea from Toyotaro's interpretation (much like how Episode 105 not only brought back Super Saiyan God for Goku, but also had him utilize Toyotaro's Vegeta's form-switching technique for similar stamina and power reasons). They definitively stated that, because Vegeta used Super Saiyan God and Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution weren't featured in the film, then Dragon Ball Super: Broly must be following Toyotaro's continuity. ("if anyone still cares about the canon debate between anime vs manga, this movie I think basically settled it.")

But we don't even know that for sure from just summaries alone. There isn't a mention of Completed Super Saiyan Blue or anything similar (like its ki-sponging properties), manga-exclusive events or even trivial stuff like Vegeta using his Gamma Burst Flash based on second-hand accounts either. P

That's why some people are dubious of the claim that Toriyama's thought process was to railroaded the animated interpretation of his outlines to follow Toyotaro's take. Which seems counterproductive when Toriyama also implied that Toyotaro's going to do his own take of the movie anyway, divergences and all. I'm more inclined to go with a "broad strokes" approach to the story for both anime and manga readers to understand the events, rather than favoring one or the another. He liked Toyotaro's God Vegeta idea, and he took it into his own (much like how he liked Bardock from Toei's OVA and took it into his own manga and prequel comic). Toyotaro himself has stated on two occasions that Toriyama has been inspired by what he witnessesin the anime as well, and generally looks over the storyboardsof anything DB-related.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:19 am

Toriyama probably doesn't care enough to go "I'm going to follow the anime/manga's continuity." From everything we know about him, that's not how he operates; being granular about canonicity is the work of fans to him, probably. Anyway, since he directly works with the manga, it's only logical that the manga is more in-step with the movie because the manga is closer to Toriyama's vision.

So to sum up: Is Toriyama saying the manga is "more canon" than the anime? Nah.
Does the manga fit better with the movie than the anime? Yes.
Does Toriyama work closer with the mangaka than the anime writing team? Yes.
Does the manga have more Toriyama influence than the anime? Yes.
Does the movie contain things that originated in the manga? Yes.

That's all that's being said here. Take from it what you will.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm

I agree with all that.

As for completed SSB, we know that SSB has aura in the film. However, Vegeta's refined version of SSB has aura with blue flames infused, and if either Goku/Vegeta has a form at the end of an arc, it's more than likely that the other will have it at the beginning of the next. I'm not saying that's what they were going for (I doubt it would even be said if they were), but I think it works well enough.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:01 pm

The man who helped Toriyama write this film was Akio Iyoku, who not only works as head of DB Room but is an Editor in Chief at V-Jump and I suspect he is the other person besides Toriyama who checks Toyotaro's script which is something to keep in mind. Maybe both decided they didn't want to stoke any flames about the anime vs manga legitimacy or more likely just decided to cherry pick/simplify the story so that fans who consume either medium can keep up.
Also since we know the manga will adapt the movie and anime almost certainly will when it comes back. Then they can use CSSB, SSBKK, SSBE, whatever and make it fit their own continuities

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:20 pm

TKA wrote:Toriyama probably doesn't care enough to go "I'm going to follow the anime/manga's continuity." From everything we know about him, that's not how he operates; being granular about canonicity is the work of fans to him, probably. Anyway, since he directly works with the manga, it's only logical that the manga is more in-step with the movie because the manga is closer to Toriyama's vision.

So to sum up: Is Toriyama saying the manga is "more canon" than the anime? Nah.
Does the manga fit better with the movie than the anime? Yes.
Does Toriyama work closer with the mangaka than the anime writing team? Yes.
Does the manga have more Toriyama influence than the anime? Yes.
Does the movie contain things that originated in the manga? Yes.

That's all that's being said here. Take from it what you will.
I agree with this and that's all I was trying to say. The manga is more consistent with the movie than the anime.

I need to watch the movie myself which won't by until January. In the movie clips, we've seen SSB Goku and Vegeta with and without aura. Since CSSB has no aura, people have speculated that Toriyama is following his own canon, ignoring anime and manga.

It's also likely that the Mastered SSB is being used as you can see the blue flames infused inside a darker blue aura in the new animated SSB aura as @batistabus points out. In the manga, they didn't have the twinkle stars for SSBE and they didn't call it SSBE. Given that this is post-ToP, it's possible that both Goku and Vegeta can use Mastered SSB.

Thus, the movie can be explained without contradicting the manga, but it cannot be explained without contradicting the anime. SSG Vegeta can exist in both continuities so that doesn't matter. The absence of the Kaioken is a big deal.

Maybe this is fan-made, I'm not sure:
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Is that really from a bonus page from the manga or a fan explanation. I had posted it much earlier but I just thought it was from a fan

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:03 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Is that really from a bonus page from the manga or a fan explanation. I had posted it much earlier but I just thought it was from a fan
I also don't remember it being from the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:42 pm

that's a fan-made explanation.

no such explanation in the manga

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:49 pm

If it was fan-made, my bad. In any case, the point still stands that the blue flames were merged with a surrounding darker aura and that is what we see in the DBS Broly clips that were posted here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=26620#p1556486
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:42 pm

When we claim that Toriyama references the DBS manga over the anime for his scripts, we say it with good reason behind it. He checks over Toyotarou's storyboard, he edits panels and approves his ideas while supervising them, and more recently he used SSG Vegeta while excluding SSB-KK/SSBE. While he does work and meet with Toei on their storyboard, he does not micromanage Toei's staff the same way as he does Toyotarou. Both are mangaka, both designed characters together, and it's clear that they have a good working relationship. So it should be of no surprise if he decides to reference Toyotarou's ideas and not Toei's. This is not about anime vs manga flame wars, though people will tend to see it that way or get offended.

I have no problem admitting that the Super manga was originally meant to be a promotional product to the anime. That doesn't automatically make the anime superior to the manga, just like Toriyama using Toyo's ideas shouldn't make the manga automatically superior to the anime (and frankly Toriyama is not as great of a writer or storyteller as he used to be). But unfortunately people will use that point to downplay the manga's popularity, as usual.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:51 pm

YamiGoku wrote:You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.
Exactly, though I wouldn't say it's "bad", but average, Super in overall is an average series (anime and manga), I only give more props to the anime for attempting to develop their characters better and trying to keep the dialogue less like a exposition dump
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:43 pm

Noah wrote:
YamiGoku wrote:You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.
Exactly, though I wouldn't say it's "bad", but average, Super in overall are an average series (anime and manga), I only give more props to the anime for attempting to develop their characters better and trying to keep the dialogue less like a exposition dump
Nah , average series don’t have this amount of criticism, comments, etc... call it whatever, but average ? Having the name of dragon ball that can’t be , it’s not like they did 20 series after the original db series .
Ah There’s no facts , I like this series both manga and anime , and that’s enough to decline your facts , they become respectable opinions , just like mine .
Of course they could be done better , but they entertain us , that’s why we are here , no ? :D
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Noah wrote:I only give more props to the anime for attempting to develop their characters better
Which characters do you feel were developed better? I'd honestly like to get into this conversation.
and trying to keep the dialogue less like a exposition dump
This was one of the worst parts about the anime's ToP. Characters standing around for minutes talking during a "battle royale". People complain about the peanut gallery in the manga, but it's so much worse in the anime. At least you can just glance over a pointless panel while you're reading manga.

Speaking of the peanut gallery, I'm glad the Broly arc seems to have done away with them for the most part. If a character has no role in a story line, I say don't bother putting them in. The constant reactions from the spectators is pointless padding, but I bet Super - anime and manga - would get just as many criticisms if those characters weren't saying anything, or if they weren't even there to begin with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Saiga wrote:I'm pretty sure they're saying the the manga DID influence the decision to put God Vegeta in the movie, per what the magazine said.
I think so, but I also think Zephyr's post (specifically his second paragraph) aligns pretty well with what I was trying to say -- if the film feels more familiar to the manga's version of events rather than the anime's to some viewers/readers, that's certainly no coincidence. If we're going solely by whichever interpretation of the U6/FT/US arcs we can infer is closer to Toriyama's intent, I'd be inclined to say that the manga is the definitive version of Super in a serialized format.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I'd probably not say that it's the definitive version of Super, even if, to me, it indeed is, largely because it comes across as if the anime version (and peoples' enjoyment of, or preference for, it) is simply invalid, when it's clearly the main product and merch-inspiring vehicle. That it seems to be the version that has less involvement from Toriyama does give me a chuckle, though. Feels like a genuine disparity between the commercial brand and the auteur ultimately behind it all.
batistabus wrote:
and trying to keep the dialogue less like a exposition dump
This was one of the worst parts about the anime's ToP. Characters standing around for minutes talking during a "battle royale". People complain about the peanut gallery in the manga, but it's so much worse in the anime.
Also, the sheer volume of needless "X or Y glorified Tenkaichi Budokai preliminary contestant has been eliminated!" and "let us remind you that only 60 seconds have gone by!" cannot be highlighted enough.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm

just checked the new video of TNM on Toyotaro. He needed 12 minutes to tell the viewers that the problems are panelling, reused images and homages. Things pretty much everyone knows and could be said in 10 seconds. Also if you're a comic/manga creator don't look up to Toyo but to other, much better mangaka... It's like saying if you're into movie making don't look at Michael Bay, but be like Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan or Akira Kurosawa.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:34 pm

IM21 wrote:snip
These videos do a decent job at pointing out what's good about Toriyama, but they do a poor job making a case for Toyotaro being bad. Toriyama is a manga god, Toyotaro is a decent rookie without artistic training. Toriyama will always be better, but just because Toyotaro's worse by comparison, that doesn't make him bad. Despite the unnecessary panels in Toyo's version, the manga is still very well laid out. Every week when the new chapter leaks, everyone can understand a significant portion of what's happening despite not understanding the language. His art is clean, consistent, and aesthetically pleasing. His characters are expressive and energetic. Basically, it's everything that makes Toriyama's art good, just less so. Not bad overall, just clearly worse by comparison.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:38 pm

TKA wrote:Does the manga fit better with the movie than the anime? Yes
No, actually it doesn't. The anime-specific and manga-specific forms both do not appear. It is completely independent of either continuity and doesn't align well with either of them.
YamiGoku wrote: You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.
This sort of garbage really needs to stop. Saying the manga is bad is not a fact it is an opinion. Period. Quality is inherently subjective and directly tied to individual interpretation rather than anything empirical in nature.
shadowfox87 wrote:If it was fan-made, my bad. In any case, the point still stands that the blue flames were merged with a surrounding darker aura and that is what we see in the DBS Broly clips that were posted here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=26620#p1556486
The only aura time an aura existed in CSSB is in that scene with Vegeta when he got that power-up. Otherwise it never has an aura and it constantly has an aura in the movie. Therefore, it is not CSSB and the manga-specific form(s) aren't in it just as the anime-specific forms weren't in it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:48 pm

PFM18 wrote:
TKA wrote:Does the manga fit better with the movie than the anime? Yes
No, actually it doesn't. The anime-specific and manga-specific forms both do not appear. It is completely independent of either continuity and doesn't align well with either of them.
YamiGoku wrote: You guys can like the manga more than the anime, but calling the DBS manga "bad" is not just an opinion but it's a fact.
This sort of garbage really needs to stop. Saying the manga is bad is not a fact it is an opinion. Period. Quality is inherently subjective and directly tied to individual interpretation rather than anything empirical in nature.
shadowfox87 wrote:If it was fan-made, my bad. In any case, the point still stands that the blue flames were merged with a surrounding darker aura and that is what we see in the DBS Broly clips that were posted here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=26620#p1556486
The only aura time an aura existed in CSSB is in that scene with Vegeta when he got that power-up. Otherwise it never has an aura and it constantly has an aura in the movie. Therefore, it is not CSSB and the manga-specific form(s) aren't in it just as the anime-specific forms weren't in it.
Exactly what I was trying to say. This movie is INDEPENDENT of both manga or anime, it's just as toriyama was crafting an independent story he decided to use ONE (as far as we know) manga exclusive property because it pleased him to do so, but that is it. To argue other extraneous detail about the relationship of toyotaro with akira or what-not is well.... extraneous and irrelevant to main argument at hand.

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