"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:03 pm

Noah wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Wrong you do realize manga-ka have editors. Toyotaro is at the whim of his editors and the publisher just like every other manga-ka. Usually things like number of chapters are decided ahead of time. And each chapter is only allotted a certain number of pages base on what V-Jump can allow.

I am not saying Toyotaro has no input on things he wants to do in the story whatsoever. But to think he has complete editorial control means you don’t understand how writing manga works.
Don't make us laugh, V-Jump is primarily focused on promotional materials, it's not an alternative to publications like Weekly Shonen Jump that exist to introduce fresh new material. Also there's no directors to put Toyotaro work in check (besides Toriyama himself) like we had back then with the author of the original manga. Is not up to V-Jump to decide as long they keep making profit with it.
I dont know where you heard that from but Toyo has an editor. They just dont seem to be nearly as strict as Toriyama’s editors
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:14 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:Huh, I had always assumed the Grand Supreme Kai was Fat Buu. If you took him out, what would Fat Buu even be? :think:
If they remove Dai Kaioshin from Majin Buu, he will look like this. That is the form Majin Buu displays when he absorbed Kaioshin of South, prior to absorbing Dai Kaioshin.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:16 pm

Shaddy wrote:So this new arc could be cool. It focuses on former Kaioshin, Buu and the Galactic Patrol, which I'll never say no to seeing more of. I'm glad we're doing more with the Galactic Patrol especially. I think having a gun that INSTANTLY KNOCKS ANYONE IT HITS OUT is a little bit backwards for this series considering how much fucking problems could have been solved with that, but I can look past it because who the hell cares. I like the new guy's design, even if Toyo is still janking up his anatomy somewhat. That said I still don't really have any confidence in Toyotaro after what we just got done with. I'm primarily a fan of the anime for Super so I'm hoping they do their own version of this arc, and maybe get away from the soulless feel the manga has had for a while now.
Well I think the implication is that this gun could knock Goku and Vegeta out because they were off-guard. But even if it were able to knock about anyone at any given time...how would that help them defeat Freeza if the Galactic Patrol were to confront him? They knock him out? Then what? They can't kill Freeza without considerably more power than they are currently capable of. And this stun gun could have been invented in the last 10 years or so, which is still much later than Freeza's death.
Chiquita wrote: I'm also more a fan of the anime of Super than I am the manga, but the anime isn't airing right now and I can't imagine it'll be any earlier than April, more likely July, when that comes back so if I want to stay on top of this new arc oh well I'm stuck with the manga for another 5 months.
My thoughts exactly lol. Although I thought the last two chapters were really good even if generally speaking I think Toyotaro does a poor job.
goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
Exactly! It is fucking awesome! It is a very interesting idea that is very Toriyama-esque to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:26 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Shaddy wrote:So this new arc could be cool. It focuses on former Kaioshin, Buu and the Galactic Patrol, which I'll never say no to seeing more of. I'm glad we're doing more with the Galactic Patrol especially. I think having a gun that INSTANTLY KNOCKS ANYONE IT HITS OUT is a little bit backwards for this series considering how much fucking problems could have been solved with that, but I can look past it because who the hell cares. I like the new guy's design, even if Toyo is still janking up his anatomy somewhat. That said I still don't really have any confidence in Toyotaro after what we just got done with. I'm primarily a fan of the anime for Super so I'm hoping they do their own version of this arc, and maybe get away from the soulless feel the manga has had for a while now.
Well I think the implication is that this gun could knock Goku and Vegeta out because they were off-guard. But even if it were able to knock about anyone at any given time...how would that help them defeat Freeza if the Galactic Patrol were to confront him? They knock him out? Then what? They can't kill Freeza without considerably more power than they are currently capable of. And this stun gun could have been invented in the last 10 years or so, which is still much later than Freeza's death.
Chiquita wrote: I'm also more a fan of the anime of Super than I am the manga, but the anime isn't airing right now and I can't imagine it'll be any earlier than April, more likely July, when that comes back so if I want to stay on top of this new arc oh well I'm stuck with the manga for another 5 months.
My thoughts exactly lol. Although I thought the last two chapters were really good even if generally speaking I think Toyotaro does a poor job.
goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
Exactly! It is fucking awesome! It is a very interesting idea that is very Toriyama-esque to me.
The fact that a ray gun could take out an off guard Goku means that if they DID zap Freeza to sleep, they could also kill him with a ray gun since being unconscious is basically the most off guard a person could ever be
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:41 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Shaddy wrote:So this new arc could be cool. It focuses on former Kaioshin, Buu and the Galactic Patrol, which I'll never say no to seeing more of. I'm glad we're doing more with the Galactic Patrol especially. I think having a gun that INSTANTLY KNOCKS ANYONE IT HITS OUT is a little bit backwards for this series considering how much fucking problems could have been solved with that, but I can look past it because who the hell cares. I like the new guy's design, even if Toyo is still janking up his anatomy somewhat. That said I still don't really have any confidence in Toyotaro after what we just got done with. I'm primarily a fan of the anime for Super so I'm hoping they do their own version of this arc, and maybe get away from the soulless feel the manga has had for a while now.
Well I think the implication is that this gun could knock Goku and Vegeta out because they were off-guard. But even if it were able to knock about anyone at any given time...how would that help them defeat Freeza if the Galactic Patrol were to confront him? They knock him out? Then what? They can't kill Freeza without considerably more power than they are currently capable of. And this stun gun could have been invented in the last 10 years or so, which is still much later than Freeza's death.
Chiquita wrote: I'm also more a fan of the anime of Super than I am the manga, but the anime isn't airing right now and I can't imagine it'll be any earlier than April, more likely July, when that comes back so if I want to stay on top of this new arc oh well I'm stuck with the manga for another 5 months.
My thoughts exactly lol. Although I thought the last two chapters were really good even if generally speaking I think Toyotaro does a poor job.
goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
Exactly! It is fucking awesome! It is a very interesting idea that is very Toriyama-esque to me.
The fact that a ray gun could take out an off guard Goku means that if they DID zap Freeza to sleep, they could also kill him with a ray gun since being unconscious is basically the most off guard a person could ever be
In your analogy you liken what happened to Goku to being killed. Just because Goku was able to be knocked unconscious doesn't mean Freeza could be killed with it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Darkseid » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:54 pm

I dont really see the issue with the gun. It seems to be a Taser-like weapon. I mean yeah Goku and Vegeta are insanely powerful beings but does that give them immunity from something that seems to attack the nervous system? Or attacks designed not to hurt but to stun? Attacks that target their senses like Solar Flare? Immeasurable strength doesnt mean they are no longer biological creatures.

Additionally Goku clearly didnt anticipate such a weapon being used and you could handwave Vegeta´s inaction as him being stunned by Goku getting taken down. They simply didnt see any difficulty in beating the Patrolman up.

As for why not using it against Freeza: he is surrounded by an army of grunts most of the time and would probably kill any Patrolman on sight (i never read the Jaco Manga, is Freeza, his attitude toward the GP and such ever mentioned?)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:59 pm

PFM18 wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Well I think the implication is that this gun could knock Goku and Vegeta out because they were off-guard. But even if it were able to knock about anyone at any given time...how would that help them defeat Freeza if the Galactic Patrol were to confront him? They knock him out? Then what? They can't kill Freeza without considerably more power than they are currently capable of. And this stun gun could have been invented in the last 10 years or so, which is still much later than Freeza's death.


My thoughts exactly lol. Although I thought the last two chapters were really good even if generally speaking I think Toyotaro does a poor job.



Exactly! It is fucking awesome! It is a very interesting idea that is very Toriyama-esque to me.
The fact that a ray gun could take out an off guard Goku means that if they DID zap Freeza to sleep, they could also kill him with a ray gun since being unconscious is basically the most off guard a person could ever be
In your analogy you liken what happened to Goku to being killed. Just because Goku was able to be knocked unconscious doesn't mean Freeza could be killed with it.
I don’t think you’re reading what i typed right.

I said that if an off guard Goku can be fatally damaged by a ray gun blast, then the same could happen to Freeza.

If Freeza were to get shot by the anesthesia gun that Goku got shot with in the latest chapter, Freeza would be unconsious. And being unconscious is the most off guard a person can be. Which means that after Freeza is unconscious and therefore off guard like Goku was, they could blast him with a ray gun and kill him.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:02 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
But the point is: if they will extract Dai Kaioshin from Mr. Boo, don't that means the latter will cease to exist? Which means no Majuub in the future? :cry:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:08 pm

PFM18 wrote: Well I think the implication is that this gun could knock Goku and Vegeta out because they were off-guard. But even if it were able to knock about anyone at any given time...how would that help them defeat Freeza if the Galactic Patrol were to confront him? They knock him out? Then what? They can't kill Freeza without considerably more power than they are currently capable of. And this stun gun could have been invented in the last 10 years or so, which is still much later than Freeza's death.\\
I didn't say anything about Freeza?

Either way, half the problems the characters face isn't relegated to anything more than enough time. Either to charge up something powerful, to run away toward something or someone that can help, or train hard enough to become stronngggggerrrr enough to beat the enemy. Being able to just instantly incapacitate anyone without so much as a skirmish would be an unrivaled boon in their favor.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:23 pm

Wow , I’m late for the party .
Just 17 & freeza plan is awesome , way better than the “ ups I survived “ , similar with what happened with ultra instinct “eat a bomb “ and attain it .
Visual talking of course out of league if you compare it with the anime 130-131
People still talking about rush t.o.p arc .... ridiculous to think about more chapters for this , seriously, this was around 5 min per chapter..enough, I don’t want the 2-3 min per chapter .
New arc instead of broly arc . Totally fine , better !, considering that we know what’s gonna happen in the movie ...
those sleeping guns ... cool .
I just read last days jaco the galactic patrol, nice reading , can’t believe I didn’t read that before , if there’s another weirdo like me .. I recommend it .
Goku not being able to pull Ultra instinct sucks specially in the manga where he seemed to know how to do it and what to do ...
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:29 pm

Noah wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
But the point is: if they will extract Dai Kaioshin from Mr. Boo, don't that means the latter will cease to exist? Which means no Majuub in the future? :cry:
He’d supposedly revert back to Buff Buu since he has the South Kaioshin in him. But if they too him out too, I'm guessing he’d either become Kid Buu but good. He’d probably just look like Kid Buu but with the Majin Buu type eyes.

Or he’d stay fat Buu because Toriyama don’t care about logic in his show.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:36 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Noah wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:Wow! Trying to extract Daikaioshin from Boo huh.. that is fucking awesome! Wonder if they’ll be able to physically remove Daikaioshin from Boo or if they’ll just end up probing memories and the like.. Either way it’s cool as hell!
But the point is: if they will extract Dai Kaioshin from Mr. Boo, don't that means the latter will cease to exist? Which means no Majuub in the future? :cry:
He’d supposedly revert back to Buff Buu since he has the South Kaioshin in him. But if they too him out too, I'm guessing he’d either become Kid Buu but good. He’d probably just look like Kid Buu but with the Majin Buu type eyes.

Or he’d stay fat Buu because Toriyama don’t care about logic in his show.
My bet is that they will join again because they feel good with each other , but the time they are separated, it has sense for buu to have an unseen form or keep him as it is , remember that he defuse in good and evil and the the evil ate him . Kind of confusing ..but to have a form that the saw before have less sense , considering that bad buu is gone
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:04 pm

BWri wrote:
TheMikado wrote: Basically every fight from here forwards will be only have tension “just because they want a fight”. Rather than there being any number of other ways to resolve things. Every arc just adds more and more to the pile of alternative ways different situations could have been resolved rather than feeling as desperate and universe endangering.
This or just make the cast more and more stupid as has been the trend. I think this started in Z, so I won't blame the new era for it even though there's so much PIS in the new content. If the cast wasn't stupid they would have crammed every broken training method they had in those two days prior to the ToP. I'm talking, sensu farming, gravity chamber, time chamber, kaioken for everyone who can learn it, IT for everyone, potential unlocks for everyone (they can do all this in the time chamber), and kikoho's and spirit bombs for everyone. Or even half of that. Not to mention you have Dende, Kabito, and Whis if there aren't any sensu's to farm. Team U7 should have steamrolled the competition until Jiren, then Jiren takes out most of the team.


That’s what really pissed me off about the ToP. If they really wanted to make everyone stronger, HAVE THEM TRAIN WITH WHIS. Or at least use the crap out of the HBTC. All these power scaling issues could’ve easily been solved by training with a dieties. I would’ve had a less of a problem with Roshis involvement if they would done something besides make it seem like he’s been able to keep up with everyone... They suck at their jobs honestly
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:06 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hw41i-O2ps

Well this video was a good watch. What saddens me a bit is that Toyo can improve if he’s pushed more but there’s no one pushing him.

Toriyama has been approving everything Toyo has done which shows that either Tori cant see these problems or he’s too nice of a guy to really judge Toyo harder. And we know that Toyo has an actual editor but clearly they aren’t pushing him either since the same problems keep popping up in the manga.

So even with these problems, the fact that Toriyama, Toyo’s “hero” is ok with the mistakes Toyo’s manga has and it seems to be the same case with the editor, I fear Toyotaro will never be pushed to improve upon his work. And it would be a shame to have something as big as DB have a manga stay with these flaws.

I’d again suggest he get a more strict editor. Maybe someone who’s had “mangaka experience” but i doubt they’d do it.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Vol. 26 page 80
Old Kai says that absorbing both South Kai and Grand Kai tamed Kid Buu.

Also, it is never stated that steroids buu is stronger than kid buu.
It is indirectly:

https://i.imgur.com/o9fwF8k.png

https://i.imgur.com/FphvGpW.png

The way both Goku and Vegeta react are like night and day between both forms
Cetra wrote:That is a good retcon though because it was pretty much what I always read out of the manga with the whole "those victims are lost" and thought the Piccolo thing wouldcause a plothole, just like Cell's core. So I think here he actually did something good. Even though of course there were other victims of Boo but if it is urgent he could say "those were not lost because they were not killed by a totally demonic Boo" or whatever. Would at least serve as a bit more writing. Who am I kidding though, it will not happen.
That shit was more to rub salt in the wound though, to say those killed by King Piccolo would just keep suffering even while dead, so it's just to make the character and the audience even more pissed at him.

But anyways, they didn't retcon anything, Marcarita was just talking about her own powers not being able to resurrect those killed by a demon, wasn't about the dragon balls.
TKA wrote:You're getting neither. Super Buu is Buu in his most complete form. Mr. Buu, who is the Buu we have now, was part of Super Buu. Pure/Kid Buu is Buu without Mr. Buu dragging him down, and is currently residing on Earth as Uub.

So if they somehow extract Kaioshin... nothing should be left of Mr. Buu.
It's possible that a Kid Boo could be what you get if the Kaioshin is removed, since Super Boo is just that evil Boo after eating the fat Boo, and Kid Boo is a Boo without the influence of the fat Kaioshin, so if you remove that, not far fetched that you'd get Kid Boo again.
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Can someone explain this better to me?
Gichen could easily have been an immortal being too who just got killed by a demon, nothing much to it, Jiren could be really old too.
Lord Beerus wrote:I have the wonder what the districts consist of that the Galactic Patrol look over, considering that there are only 28 planets of life in the universe.
Man I hope they retcon that away, just 28 species is just so restricting.
WittyUsername wrote:Shouldn’t Buu have reverted back to his grey form after the good one was extracted from him anyway?
Think the way it works is that anorexic Boo is just Fat Boo's evil side, and after becoming Super Boo, he became a mix of both, so Kid Boo was there was well, and by removing Fat Boo from him, he just went back to the "default" form, that being Kid Boo.
I guess that's a good point. I don't know why Toriyama would show Buu getting stronger just to show him getting weaker a few pages later, but I guess that's just how it is.

Still, the strongest kai was beaten by kid buu, so Dai Kaioshin is automatically weaker than Buu Saga SS3 Goku.

Also, Kibito says that generations of Kais have tried to lift the Z sword but none could do it, so it can be assumed that the vast majority of Supreme Kais are weaker than SS1 Gohan.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:53 pm

Image
This one looks rad.
I read somewhere that may be bonus chapter about broly for the Saiko jump early in December ?
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
That shit was more to rub salt in the wound though, to say those killed by King Piccolo would just keep suffering even while dead, so it's just to make the character and the audience even more pissed at him.

But anyways, they didn't retcon anything, Marcarita was just talking about her own powers not being able to resurrect those killed by a demon, wasn't about the dragon balls.
No it was not because it was not said because of King Piccolo but because of Radditz and to show that Piccolo himself was no longer of demonic nature. Radditz' soul was not lost. It was not said at the end of the Piccolo Daimaou saga. And when a plot explains souls are lost then I think them not being easily resurrected is very believable with the victims of Piccolo being ressurected being fishy.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:28 pm

prince212 wrote:Image
This one looks rad.
I read somewhere that may be bonus chapter about broly for the Saiko jump early in December ?
That pose is similar to the finger point Kefla did towards the Pride Troopers. I can dig it.

Wonder if Toyotarou won an early premiere ticket as a normal contestant or if he managed to get in for sure because of his position. Prob the latter since he also helped advertise it. Good for him.

Don't know anything about a bonus chapter tho.
Lukmendes wrote: I think having a saiyan villain right after Broly (Well, he ain't a villain but was an antagonist) would feel pretty lazy, better make use of something else.

Someone from the demon realm would feel odd since it'd basicaly mean that kaionshins decided to entrust Galactic Patrol to keep it imprisoned, that honestly feels odd for me, though if it's someone with a connection to someone from the demon realm it could work.
Yeah I don't think it's gonna be a Saiyan. But at this point the most interesting parts of the series (to me at least) have always involved Saiyans and I'm only invested in Super for them if not for anything else.

The prisoner could have associations to the Demon Realm. I wouldn't put it past Toyo to involve them somehow given he loves SDBH, hell everyone in Japan prob does too. And I'd be on board for that 100%.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:59 pm

Wow, this is going to be a long month waiting for the next manga chapter and for the story to continue.

I hear rumblings of this wreaking of a Bojack reboot. Considering that Bojack was sealed up by the kais apparently and that is why the Kaioshin would be needed to learn more about his escape, the Bojack movie came out right after the Broly movie and was about how Bojack had broken free from his "prison." Also, of all this talk about the Galactic Patrol, Bojack's signature move was called Galactic Buster.

It's probably not going to happen, but there's a connection there and I hope they are wrong about it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:14 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hw41i-O2ps

Well this video was a good watch. What saddens me a bit is that Toyo can improve if he’s pushed more but there’s no one pushing him.

Toriyama has been approving everything Toyo has done which shows that either Tori cant see these problems or he’s too nice of a guy to really judge Toyo harder. And we know that Toyo has an actual editor but clearly they aren’t pushing him either since the same problems keep popping up in the manga.

So even with these problems, the fact that Toriyama, Toyo’s “hero” is ok with the mistakes Toyo’s manga has and it seems to be the same case with the editor, I fear Toyotaro will never be pushed to improve upon his work. And it would be a shame to have something as big as DB have a manga stay with these flaws.

I’d again suggest he get a more strict editor. Maybe someone who’s had “mangaka experience” but i doubt they’d do it.
This guy did some video '' fixing '' the anime? Just to know

Incidentally, Toriyama also oversees the anime and we've seen several absurdities happen, including at various moments in the ToP. Until the beginning of ToP of the manga, the anime was being well criticized. But apparently, Toriyama is okay with it (or maybe he does not have as much influence as before)

What I think is that Toriyama does not get more involved as before. Look at the new movie, Broly canonized? if we listened to this before would seem like a joke. And all because of a commercial desire, since Broly's worst film (and one of the worst DB movies) was a success. Broly also does not look much more interesting in this film, a character with little charisma, overly powerful but with a sad story. Gogeta is also returning (though he is much more plausible than Broly, after all the Metamoru merger for Goku and Vegeta has always been possible). In short, it is very fanservice, much more than before, and seems to have much more influence from TOEI or others than Toriyama.

Anyway, Toriyama relied on Toyotaro as his successor, and not even other talented mangakas like Dragon Garow Lee had so much recognition (by Toriyama), so I believe Toyotaro can still evolve. Their designs for example have improved a lot, and I hope this continues to improve

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