"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:33 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Well the translations are out of the new chapter 42. I gotta say that I loved that Freeza and #17 planned the entire situation with #17 hiding because nobody can sense his ki. This also makes a bit sense of Grand Priest, who in the anime and manga, announced that #17 was gone. It's also awesome that #17 acknowledged that he couldn't blow himself even if he wanted to since he didn't have the bomb inside of him. In all, it wasn't probably as exciting as the anime with Goku and Freeza teaming up, but I also liked this version because it provided more logical explanations for what happened.
I personally don't care about that team up in the anime, because the scene just worked better sequentially. There was less ambiguity and more of a useful loophole idea there.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:48 pm

batistabus wrote:
fexus wrote:What more do you want?
Do you judge a movie in the first 5 minutes? Can you tell me a single thing about this new character's background, aside from the fact that he's a competent Galactic Patrolman? This sort of mentality is why this thread gets locked every month, and why respectable content creators like Kanzenshuu don't review the manga on a chapter-by-chapter basis.

I want context. I want to know more about these new characters, their mission, and the Galactic Patrol. Unless you've already convinced yourself to have a problem with this new arc, let's see where it goes.
We all know Toyo ain't gonna visit this matter again.
What I know is that select fans maintain this mentality month-after-month, only to ignore the fact that many questionable things actually get explained in Toyotaro's version.
Those context are for story purposes. It's not going to explain how a Galactic Patroller caught Goku and even more ridiculous, Vegeta off guard. Or are you expecting me to give Toyo a chance for every little mistakes he make?

Oh yeah. I remember how people said that Toyo was going to fix ToP arc. Look at it now. It's even worse than the anime. You tell me know should I give Toyotaro another chance after he royally fucked up during ToP? Is Toyo going to revisit UI Roshi. Aniraza getting one shotted Krillin having not help one bit. And many more stuff that is a problem in Toyotaro ToP. Is he going to revisit any of that?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:14 pm

fexus wrote: Those context are for story purposes. It's not going to explain how a Galactic Patroller caught Goku and even more ridiculous, Vegeta off guard
I don't even know how to begin to tackle this.

You realize that these people aren't actually people and are characters in a story, right? EVERYTHING is for story purposes. To ignore context is to ignore the whole reason "power levels" even exist in the first place.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:15 pm

fexus wrote: Those context are for story purposes. It's not going to explain how a Galactic Patroller caught Goku and even more ridiculous, Vegeta off guard. Or are you expecting me to give Toyo a chance for every little mistakes he make?

Oh yeah. I remember how people said that Toyo was going to fix ToP arc. Look at it now. It's even worse than the anime. You tell me know should I give Toyotaro another chance after he royally fucked up during ToP? Is Toyo going to revisit UI Roshi. Aniraza getting one shotted Krillin having not help one bit. And many more stuff that is a problem in Toyotaro ToP. Is he going to revisit any of that?
I do have some things I don’t like , but those that you mention are not a problem for me .
I have different interpretations for those mistakes you can see and I don’t . Anyways tell more stuff if you are that kind .
The main dislike I have with top are the reaction panels with kulilin all over the place and the resolution of kefla participation after all the build up to her character.
The galactic gun and speed of the guy is not that a screaming OMG that some people is performing...
it doesn’t even need an explanation, the guy was showed to be fast and had a nice gun . Or you guys pretend that there’s no gonna be any new people coming to the series with nice abilities and our heroes are Invincibles or unable to make mistakes ?
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:37 pm

fexus wrote:Or are you expecting me to give Toyo a chance for every little mistakes he make?

Oh yeah. I remember how people said that Toyo was going to fix ToP arc.

Is Toyo going to revisit UI Roshi.

Aniraza getting one shotted

Krillin having not help one bit.
I'm expecting you to understand that stories don't give you every little bit of information all at once. I can't tell you how many times people have complained about something in a leak, only for the exact issue to be addressed with an official translation or in a subsequent chapter.

He did a reasonably good job at doing just that, but go on.

What for? The reason for including that Kame-sen'nin scene was tied in very well with the scene that followed. Why be so concerned with a made-up notion of "power scaling" that you can't even accept someone weak dodging for a few seconds and doing absolutely no damage?

I see no reason to give any extra time to scenery. His elimination was in service of Kale, who I think is a much more interesting character than a Megazord without a personality. At least...she is in the manga.

Kuririn was eliminated in service of building up Freeza; one of the most important and (again) interesting characters of the arc. He also got the funniest gag of the arc. That's much better than the anime having him tap-dance around for a while, only to be eliminated and humiliated by Frost for showboating during a battle royale.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:31 pm

batistabus wrote: I'm expecting you to understand that stories don't give you every little bit of information all at once. I can't tell you how many times people have complained about something in a leak, only for the exact issue to be addressed with an official translation or in a subsequent chapter.

He did a reasonably good job at doing just that, but go on.

What for? The reason for including that Kame-sen'nin scene was tied in very well with the scene that followed. Why be so concerned with a made-up notion of "power scaling" that you can't even accept someone weak dodging for a few seconds and doing absolutely no damage?

I see no reason to give any extra time to scenery. His elimination was in service of Kale, who I think is a much more interesting character than a Megazord without a personality. At least...she is in the manga.

Kuririn was eliminated in service of building up Freeza; one of the most important and (again) interesting characters of the arc. He also got the funniest gag of the arc. That's much better than the anime having him tap-dance around for a while, only to be eliminated and humiliated by Frost for showboating during a battle royale.
First, lets not ignore the part that Goku is a literal martial arts genius and have learned from Roshi, Popo, Kami, King Kai, Whis, competently. This avoiding things is really really basic stuff. This isn't like Goku. Goku is never about all power. Toyo is ruining his character just to have something different to trigger UI. Now another thing is having Roshi who is really weak and is super fucking slow to avoid Jiren. Not Freeza. Not Android 17. Not Toppo. But MOTHERFUCKING JIREN. Even getting him to be serious. This isn't even peak Roshi. This is a 300 year old man Roshi. What if he was young? Would he avoid Jiren all day every day?

Aniraza was also in the manga? I don't understand what you mean by that? Kale eliminated him in one panel. Literally one panel. Heck, Kale was eliminating almost everyone in one panel. Lets not act like this is in service to the story by the way. Toyo was running out of time. He needs to make a lot of elimination fast. So, the story suffers from it. Do you ever think that Toyo can do better because he absolutely can.

Why are you going on with this "in service" stuff? That really doesn't excuse any of this. In the anime, we got a nice scene with Krillin fighting along with his wife and even saving her. Unless you're a Krillin hater, I suggest you to tone down that indifference towards him. He deserves the spotlight once in a while and Toyo took that from him and made him a joke. I remember when manga fans was saying that the human would get more "screen time". Where are those people now? I know you aren't one of them as you really defend stuff like this.
prince212 wrote: I do have some things I don’t like , but those that you mention are not a problem for me .
I have different interpretations for those mistakes you can see and I don’t . Anyways tell more stuff if you are that kind .
The main dislike I have with top are the reaction panels with kulilin all over the place and the resolution of kefla participation after all the build up to her character.
The galactic gun and speed of the guy is not that a screaming OMG that some people is performing...
it doesn’t even need an explanation, the guy was showed to be fast and had a nice gun . Or you guys pretend that there’s no gonna be any new people coming to the series with nice abilities and our heroes are Invincibles or unable to make mistakes ?
Of course they can make mistakes but this is just after fighting Broly and also after a whole arc about letting your guard down. Not only Goku lets his guard down but also Vegeta. They ruin his character just so he can be knocked out and forced to go to the Galactic Patrol station. It's ridiculous as there is literally no need for Toyo to have the one Galactic Patroller do that. The bigger problem is that many of the fans are giving excusing Toyo for this and even worse giving excuses for Toyo. You don't need to defend every mistake he does.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:10 pm

batistabus wrote:Kuririn was eliminated in service of building up Freeza; one of the most important and (again) interesting characters of the arc. He also got the funniest gag of the arc. That's much better than the anime having him tap-dance around for a while, only to be eliminated and humiliated by Frost for showboating during a battle royale.
Not sure how you can say that with a straight face when Kuririn did that and more in the anime. Just swap Feeza, who had way more build up without needing Kuririn anyway, with Frost.

It's this constant double standard that wastes everyone's time when people insist on comparing the manga with the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:43 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote: You say that as though people haven’t had a problem with the bolded, which, from what I remember, a crap ton of people do.
From what I remember, I don't see it.

Some posters have already told you this, but brilliant minds and brilliant technology can and do coexist alongside brilliant powers in DB.

DB in general doesn't follow power level logic. If you become stuck in this mindset, you'll never have a good time with the series anymore.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:44 pm

fexus wrote:
prince212 wrote: The galactic gun and speed of the guy is not that a screaming OMG that some people is performing...
it doesn’t even need an explanation, the guy was showed to be fast and had a nice gun . Or you guys pretend that there’s no gonna be any new people coming to the series with nice abilities and our heroes are Invincibles or unable to make mistakes ?
Of course they can make mistakes but this is just after fighting Broly and also after a whole arc about letting your guard down. Not only Goku lets his guard down but also Vegeta. They ruin his character just so he can be knocked out and forced to go to the Galactic Patrol station. It's ridiculous as there is literally no need for Toyo to have the one Galactic Patroller do that. The bigger problem is that many of the fans are giving excusing Toyo for this and even worse giving excuses for Toyo. You don't need to defend every mistake he does.
It doesn’t matter if this situation is happening even in the case goku and vegeta just finished to kill both zenos in the previous arc . It serves to hype that guy ( merus? ) , that is coming to ask for help , so you can imagine if he’s that fast and have that weapon , how is gonna be the next villain.... no ruin character at all , that case could be goku and vegeta stopping his desire to be stronger , for example ... I know galactic patrol wasn’t suppose to be that great 35 years ago , but what a heck now they have that fast guy and that cool weapon and still they can’t handle the new enemy.
It’s called hype , and this series and almost all , creates new enemies stronger than the previous ones for the shake of the show .
Let’s wait for translations on place and future chapters , but this is looking good to me .
You say fans give excuses, that’s your thing , I say some fans look for excuses to trash dragon ball no matter what , that’s their enjoyment looks like . Tell me something that you like , or is everything negative?
As I said in previous posts I have my own dislikes in this series both manga and anime , but usually I rather enjoy the ones that I like more than enjoy the ones that I dislike by making the Everest out of 5 stones .
The balance is positive and that’s why I keep on following this series , as I follow 4 more at this time , I consider some better than dragon ball at some points , may be I’m not objective and nostalgia plays a role in the way I truly enjoy this series , most of the complaints of the fandom have not sense to me
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:05 am

fexus wrote:First, lets not ignore the part that Goku is a literal martial arts genius and have learned from Roshi, Popo, Kami, King Kai, Whis, competently. This avoiding things is really really basic stuff. This isn't like Goku. Goku is never about all power. Toyo is ruining his character just to have something different to trigger UI.
Goku tends to get as much power as possible when he's desperate though, like risking his life for that forbidden water to be able to defeat King Piccolo, or when he kept increasing Kaioken against Vegeta, or Kaiokenx20 against Freeza, or SS3 against Boo... Basicaly when he really wants to beat the opponent he'll risk his own life to increase his power if needed, it is odd he chose to use it against Jiren who wasn't someone threatening, but Goku seemed like he just really wanted to beat him, which somewhat makes sense since Goku can be pretty cocky.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:53 am

I preferred the way the Jiren was eliminated in the anime. It felt much more climactic than the ending here. Still, I do like how #17 decided not to reveal that he was still alive until everyone else had already been eliminated. With that being said, I’m extremely disappointed that the manga didn’t mention anything about the tournament being a test to see if the lower universes were capable of selflessness. To me, that twist in the anime actually redeemed Zen-Oh and the arc as a whole in my eyes, so the fact that it was apparently a Toei thing is really unfortunate.

Anyway, that’s it for the Tournament of Power. Time to move on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:08 am

prince212 wrote:
fexus wrote:
prince212 wrote: The galactic gun and speed of the guy is not that a screaming OMG that some people is performing...
it doesn’t even need an explanation, the guy was showed to be fast and had a nice gun . Or you guys pretend that there’s no gonna be any new people coming to the series with nice abilities and our heroes are Invincibles or unable to make mistakes ?
Of course they can make mistakes but this is just after fighting Broly and also after a whole arc about letting your guard down. Not only Goku lets his guard down but also Vegeta. They ruin his character just so he can be knocked out and forced to go to the Galactic Patrol station. It's ridiculous as there is literally no need for Toyo to have the one Galactic Patroller do that. The bigger problem is that many of the fans are giving excusing Toyo for this and even worse giving excuses for Toyo. You don't need to defend every mistake he does.
It doesn’t matter if this situation is happening even in the case goku and vegeta just finished to kill both zenos in the previous arc . It serves to hype that guy ( merus? ) , that is coming to ask for help , so you can imagine if he’s that fast and have that weapon , how is gonna be the next villain.... no ruin character at all , that case could be goku and vegeta stopping his desire to be stronger , for example ... I know galactic patrol wasn’t suppose to be that great 35 years ago , but what a heck now they have that fast guy and that cool weapon and still they can’t handle the new enemy.
It’s called hype , and this series and almost all , creates new enemies stronger than the previous ones for the shake of the show .
Let’s wait for translations on place and future chapters , but this is looking good to me .
You say fans give excuses, that’s your thing , I say some fans look for excuses to trash dragon ball no matter what , that’s their enjoyment looks like . Tell me something that you like , or is everything negative?
As I said in previous posts I have my own dislikes in this series both manga and anime , but usually I rather enjoy the ones that I like more than enjoy the ones that I dislike by making the Everest out of 5 stones .
The balance is positive and that’s why I keep on following this series , as I follow 4 more at this time , I consider some better than dragon ball at some points , may be I’m not objective and nostalgia plays a role in the way I truly enjoy this series , most of the complaints of the fandom have not sense to me
It does matter. This isn't a plot point. Isn't a character moment. It is just something that was done to have Goku and Vegeta follow them to the Galactic Patrol station. You can hype the Patroller by them having a spar or something. Where Goku obviously limits himself and really got caught by surprise. With this we don't ruin Vegeta too.
You can hype something without going the illogical route. Heck, I don't see any hype from the community besides the people defending the manga. Not to mention this introduce too many plotholes that I hope would be explained later on.
You really think I'm thinking of excuses to trash dragon ball? Really? See any of my previous posts. I've been defending Dragon Ball really fucking hard. Having headcanons to justify everything wrong. And even been wrong myself when my headcanon was proven wrong. I want this to be good. But Toyotaro really isn't giving me any confidence he can make it good. As I said many times before, it's even worse because there are many fans of the manga that don't want Toyotaro to receive any criticism. If not you, I don't really care but there are people like that. Even in this very thread.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:19 am

I LOVE that they took out the line about how Zeno was planning to erase them if they made a selfish wish. I prefer it genuinely being the mortals fighting to the death purely for his amusement rather than flipping it on it's head and making it into a big moral test.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:33 am

fexus wrote:It does matter. This isn't a plot point. Isn't a character moment. It is just something that was done to have Goku and Vegeta follow them to the Galactic Patrol station. You can hype the Patroller by them having a spar or something. Where Goku obviously limits himself and really got caught by surprise. With this we don't ruin Vegeta too.
You can hype something without going the illogical route. Heck, I don't see any hype from the community besides the people defending the manga. Not to mention this introduce too many plotholes that I hope would be explained later on.
You really think I'm thinking of excuses to trash dragon ball? Really? See any of my previous posts. I've been defending Dragon Ball really fucking hard. Having headcanons to justify everything wrong. And even been wrong myself when my headcanon was proven wrong. I want this to be good. But Toyotaro really isn't giving me any confidence he can make it good. As I said many times before, it's even worse because there are many fans of the manga that don't want Toyotaro to receive any criticism. If not you, I don't really care but there are people like that. Even in this very thread.
You're getting ahead of yourself. I can guarantee you they'll address it because the chapter made it obvious we should pay atention to this new guy. Whether speed or a special ability, they will talk about it.

Also, I'll be surprised if he has nothing to do with the prisoner escaping.
PFM18 wrote:I LOVE that they took out the line about how Zeno was planning to erase them if they made a selfish wish. I prefer it genuinely being the mortals fighting to the death purely for his amusement rather than flipping it on it's head and making it into a big moral test.
I think it feels a bit empty this way. The tournament was to lower the number of Universes but they all came back and Zenou doesn't care? There could have been a line saying he had fun so it's ok but nope.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Aizamasu » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:36 am

Is it really that incredible that someone from the Galactic patrol managed to knock out BASE Goku and Vegeta? They aren't that strong. If they were SSJB, then I would have a problem with it but right now we don't even know if the Galactic patrol guy is even capable of fighting against SSJ tier opponents.

It could have been handled better but I don't think it's a big problem.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:41 am

PFM18 wrote:I LOVE that they took out the line about how Zeno was planning to erase them if they made a selfish wish. I prefer it genuinely being the mortals fighting to the death purely for his amusement rather than flipping it on it's head and making it into a big moral test.
But that just makes the entire tournament feel utterly pointless in the end. With the anime, the Zen-Ohs not erasing the universes after they were brought back made sense, given that they were expecting them to be wished back. Furthermore, the idea that the entire tournament was a test actually came across as a clever twist that helped make it feel like Universe 7 accomplished something meaningful, that being them convincing Zen-Oh that ningens are capable of selflessness, which actually sort of ties in to the previous arc.

With the manga, on the other hand, you have to wonder what exactly is preventing them from just wiping all the universes out again. What did #17 accomplish?

Besides, I hate the idea of an entire arc solely being the result of some invincible manchild’s own personal amusement, with none of the characters being able to do anything about it. I personally can’t stand stories like that. That just makes it seem incredibly frustrating and needlessly cruel. I know the Dragon Ball franchise can be pretty cynical at times, but if the entire multiverse is such a shitty place to the point where God is just some malevolent manchild, why the hell should I care about what happens to anyone? That’s something that TV Tropes would call “Darkness Induced Audience Apathy”. It’s a comic book/cartoon series for kids, not Greek mythology.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:30 am

fexus wrote:
batistabus wrote:Why be so concerned with a made-up notion of "power scaling" that you can't even accept someone weak dodging for a few seconds and doing absolutely no damage?
Now another thing is having Roshi who is really weak and is super fucking slow to avoid Jiren. Not Freeza. Not Android 17. Not Toppo. But MOTHERFUCKING JIREN. Even getting him to be serious. This isn't even peak Roshi. This is a 300 year old man Roshi. What if he was young? Would he avoid Jiren all day every day?
I don't see any point in continuing this line of the conversation.
fexus wrote:Aniraza was also in the manga? I don't understand what you mean by that? Kale eliminated him in one panel. Literally one panel. Heck, Kale was eliminating almost everyone in one panel. Lets not act like this is in service to the story by the way. Toyo was running out of time. He needs to make a lot of elimination fast. So, the story suffers from it. Do you ever think that Toyo can do better because he absolutely can.
Anilaza was a character that wasn't interesting, nor a threat, nor relevant in either version of Super. If a character serves a very limited purpose, I don't need extra time to be spent on them. The severity of Kale's rampage (especially when contrasted to her disposition and backstory) is worth more to me than fighting someone that you know is just an obstacle (with an ugly design, if I'm being honest).

I think Toyotaro could always do better in regards to art. I think the script and art corrections by Toriyama that we've seen were severely needed. In regards to character and plot, I rarely have anything besides nitpicks. I genuinely think he has done the best job of writing a Dragon Ball story out of anyone besides Toriyama (who is still way ahead, to be fair).
fexus wrote:Why are you going on with this "in service" stuff? That really doesn't excuse any of this.
Yes it does. Although the setting is hectic, not everything is important. Some things are more important than others, and therefore have greater emphasis in the story. The story isn't about Kuririn and Tenshinhan, but if they're going to be there, it's better that they participate in an event that DOES matter, isn't just padding, and suits them.
fexus wrote:In the anime, we got a nice scene with Krillin fighting along with his wife and even saving her. Unless you're a Krillin hater, I suggest you to tone down that indifference towards him. He deserves the spotlight once in a while and Toyo took that from him and made him a joke. I remember when manga fans was saying that the human would get more "screen time". Where are those people now? I know you aren't one of them as you really defend stuff like this.
I love Kuririn. You're kidding yourself if you feel like his role in the manga isn't appropriate for where he stands in relation to other fighters in play. He got clowned on a bit on the sidelines (in genuinely funny ways), but he wasn't acting like a total fool when he was eliminated. Aside from Goku, Tenshinhan is possibly my favorite Dragon Ball character, but I don't feel the need to cheer for him as if he's an athlete in a real sport. Same goes for Boo. This isn't about teams or keeping points in regards to screen time. Dragon Ball fans are really bizarre in this way.

I'm not a fan of the relationship stuff Toei added. It did not feel in line with the way that Toriyama handles romance.
alakazam^ wrote:Not sure how you can say that with a straight face when Kuririn did that and more in the anime. Just swap Feeza, who had way more build up without needing Kuririn anyway, with Frost.
Do you honestly feel that anime Frost was more interesting than manga Freeza, or even manga Frost? I just cannot relate.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:37 am

WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:I LOVE that they took out the line about how Zeno was planning to erase them if they made a selfish wish. I prefer it genuinely being the mortals fighting to the death purely for his amusement rather than flipping it on it's head and making it into a big moral test.
But that just makes the entire tournament feel utterly pointless in the end. With the anime, the Zen-Ohs not erasing the universes after they were brought back made sense, given that they were expecting them to be wished back. Furthermore, the idea that the entire tournament was a test actually came across as a clever twist that helped make it feel like Universe 7 accomplished something meaningful, that being them convincing Zen-Oh that ningens are capable of selflessness, which actually sort of ties in to the previous arc.

With the manga, on the other hand, you have to wonder what exactly is preventing them from just wiping all the universes out again. What did #17 accomplish?

Besides, I hate the idea of an entire arc solely being the result of some invincible manchild’s own personal amusement, with none of the characters being able to do anything about it. I personally can’t stand stories like that. That just makes it seem incredibly frustrating and needlessly cruel. I know the Dragon Ball franchise can be pretty cynical at times, but if the entire multiverse is such a shitty place to the point where God is just some malevolent manchild, why the hell should I care about what happens to anyone? That’s something that TV Tropes would call “Darkness Induced Audience Apathy”. It’s a comic book/cartoon series for kids, not Greek mythology.
Are you joking? it's the direct opposite for me. I appreciate things like this, because I believe in life there's only ONE SOVEREIGN authority to whom we must all answer too! Our fates be sealed before the begging of time, destiny awaits! In today's culture, it's becoming increasingly popular for people to coalition together because of this beleif in "humanity", "togetherness as One" and all other large-scale collectivist/Marxist movements where it comes from the belief of "If we "believe", we can do anything" or some other cr@p! which leads to people selling away their sovereignty and God-given freedoms to collectivist movements in the hope of some Utopian theory future sh*t where I can be anything I want to be. lol, yeah no. That's why I like toyotaro, he actaullys keeps things consistent and doesn't cheat (fan service - at least during the zamsu arc) to provide cheap fan service to achieve cheap "pretty narratives". He doesn't have insects like Kuririn and tien doing much because they are weak and useless, as it was MEANT TO BE. And to zeno, yeah zeno is the god of everything! By his will is what keeps the multiverse in tact or not. NOTHING else, no character development or "redemption" for him. Why would he care to have one? And what are petty and insignificant mortals going to do to change the attitude of all powerful zeno? I dream I could do stuff like this. Petty unwise and unruly weaklings dare testify and protest against me to achieve unnatural things? absolute not. Those I would rule who be a flower to my kingdom, they do well - those who try to be a thorn to myself and kingdom, they will BEGONE! People ought to accept that some things ought not meant to be. Accept it and makes use of what you have, dutifully improving on what you have and let fate guide you. Not rig the natural orders of things so you can get what you want. That's actual character stagnation!
Kinda like Kuririn taking on ssj blue even though it made no sense and was beyond stupid, it was just to show "it doesn't matter if you're a human and haven't trained all but for just a few months, you can go against ssj blue goku"... all to instill this "feel good" feeling of human empowerment in dragon ball. The same thing in the future trunks arc with stinking tear gas could confuse gods of ssj ROSE black and zamsu? or giving ssj2 trunks un natural wank just because "it's his story so he deserves it". Rigging the system to get what you want because it makes for "prettier" narrative, irregardless of it actually made sense and was AUTHENTIC.
batistabus wrote:
Toyotaro's art is the best thing about his manga IMO. I have the least things to say about, if any. Toyotaro's art is top 2 in all of db history in my opinion, number 1 being the db manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:52 am

fexus wrote:Why are you going on with this "in service" stuff? That really doesn't excuse any of this.
Another example of one character being used "in service" of another is that green fighter guy from Universe 11. In the manga, he's not so important, but his speech is payoff for Gowasu, who learned from his mistakes with Zamasu. By focusing on strength of the heart with his fighters, Gowasu helped his universe bravely accept their inevitable fate. It's a bittersweet payoff.
Son-Kakaroto wrote:Toyotaro's art is the best thing about his manga IMO. I have the least things to say about, if any. Toyotaro's art is top 2 in all of db history in my opinion, number 1 being the db manga.
I do still like the art, I just hold Toriyama in very high regard.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:50 am

batistabus wrote:
fexus wrote:
batistabus wrote:Why be so concerned with a made-up notion of "power scaling" that you can't even accept someone weak dodging for a few seconds and doing absolutely no damage?
Now another thing is having Roshi who is really weak and is super fucking slow to avoid Jiren. Not Freeza. Not Android 17. Not Toppo. But MOTHERFUCKING JIREN. Even getting him to be serious. This isn't even peak Roshi. This is a 300 year old man Roshi. What if he was young? Would he avoid Jiren all day every day?
I don't see any point in continuing this line of the conversation.
fexus wrote:Aniraza was also in the manga? I don't understand what you mean by that? Kale eliminated him in one panel. Literally one panel. Heck, Kale was eliminating almost everyone in one panel. Lets not act like this is in service to the story by the way. Toyo was running out of time. He needs to make a lot of elimination fast. So, the story suffers from it. Do you ever think that Toyo can do better because he absolutely can.
Anilaza was a character that wasn't interesting, nor a threat, nor relevant in either version of Super. If a character serves a very limited purpose, I don't need extra time to be spent on them. The severity of Kale's rampage (especially when contrasted to her disposition and backstory) is worth more to me than fighting someone that you know is just an obstacle (with an ugly design, if I'm being honest).

I think Toyotaro could always do better in regards to art. I think the script and art corrections by Toriyama that we've seen were severely needed. In regards to character and plot, I rarely have anything besides nitpicks. I genuinely think he has done the best job of writing a Dragon Ball story out of anyone besides Toriyama (who is still way ahead, to be fair).
fexus wrote:Why are you going on with this "in service" stuff? That really doesn't excuse any of this.
Yes it does. Although the setting is hectic, not everything is important. Some things are more important than others, and therefore have greater emphasis in the story. The story isn't about Kuririn and Tenshinhan, but if they're going to be there, it's better that they participate in an event that DOES matter, isn't just padding, and suits them.
fexus wrote:In the anime, we got a nice scene with Krillin fighting along with his wife and even saving her. Unless you're a Krillin hater, I suggest you to tone down that indifference towards him. He deserves the spotlight once in a while and Toyo took that from him and made him a joke. I remember when manga fans was saying that the human would get more "screen time". Where are those people now? I know you aren't one of them as you really defend stuff like this.
I love Kuririn. You're kidding yourself if you feel like his role in the manga isn't appropriate for where he stands in relation to other fighters in play. He got clowned on a bit on the sidelines (in genuinely funny ways), but he wasn't acting like a total fool when he was eliminated. Aside from Goku, Tenshinhan is possibly my favorite Dragon Ball character, but I don't feel the need to cheer for him as if he's an athlete in a real sport. Same goes for Boo. This isn't about teams or keeping points in regards to screen time. Dragon Ball fans are really bizarre in this way.

I'm not a fan of the relationship stuff Toei added. It did not feel in line with the way that Toriyama handles romance.
alakazam^ wrote:Not sure how you can say that with a straight face when Kuririn did that and more in the anime. Just swap Feeza, who had way more build up without needing Kuririn anyway, with Frost.
Do you honestly feel that anime Frost was more interesting than manga Freeza, or even manga Frost? I just cannot relate.
You need to get this. We are not comparing the manga to a void of nothingness. We are comparing it to the anime which did the ToP much better. The manga while I can say is more the "thinking" man dragon ball. The anime is the one that people would likely like more. The one that is more likely to be remembered.

Aniraza while not supposed to be the one threat to rule them all, is still a considerable one. Kale backstory is in no way interesting enough to have her one panel Aniraza. The whole scene was treated like a joke. A horribly made one at that. I do wonder would you still defend Toyotaro doing the same thing but with Kuririn instead. Maybe Kuririn have some hidden power no one knows about right? Oh maybe he learn UI like Roshi. It's the state of mind with fans like you that vehemently defend Toyotaro. It's like you guys are giving him more chance then he should have gotten.

Also, in regards to art. While Toyotaro isn't what you call bad, I wouldn't call him good either. The composition, figures and the overall look of his artwork need to considerably improve to even try to think of being Toriyama successor. I also want to add that his writing is still considerably worse than what is shown in the anime. Sure, it might be more "logical" or a bit more "smart" as we can see people in the manga plan but the sense of Dragon Ball just isn't there anymore. The anime on the other hand manage to retain that sense of feeling. The anime might be inconsistent, idiotic but is way more entertaining. I hoped the manga might be smart and entertaining but it isn't. It sacrifice a lot of the hype to make it more sensible. I hoped too much for Toyotaro to at least be half of what Toriyama is.

In service doesn't justify the bad treatment given to Kuririn. It's okay to hate the relationship stuff yourself but a lot of people liked it. And I mean a lot more people like it. If you were to show the average fan how Kuririn is treated in the anime and manga, I can assure you people would absolutely like the anime way more. It's also likely that the humans are never going to get an arc about themselves ever again, so wanting them as much as possible in an arc isn't a ridiculous request. What you want is basically have the humans be gone for the rest of every arc ever. Because they are not needed. They will never be needed than. You are literally just defending this because it happens in the manga. Don't do that.
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