"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:08 am

batistabus wrote:Do you honestly feel that anime Frost was more interesting than manga Freeza, or even manga Frost? I just cannot relate.
It doesn't matter if he was or not, he stil benefitted from Kuririn being there.

Kuririn also disqualified contestants, did some teamwork and showed the audience they should pay attention to their surroundings in a setting like that. You might want to compare their roles but the manga doesn't measure up.
Son-Kakaroto wrote:Are you joking? it's the direct opposite for me. I appreciate things like this, because I believe in life there's only ONE SOVEREIGN authority to whom we must all answer too! Our fates be sealed before the begging of time, destiny awaits! In today's culture, it's becoming increasingly popular for people to coalition together because of this beleif in "humanity", "togetherness as One" and all other large-scale collectivist/Marxist movements where it comes from the belief of "If we "believe", we can do anything" or some other cr@p! which leads to people selling away their sovereignty and God-given freedoms to collectivist movements in the hope of some Utopian theory future sh*t where I can be anything I want to be. lol, yeah no. That's why I like toyotaro, he actaullys keeps things consistent and doesn't cheat (fan service - at least during the zamsu arc) to provide cheap fan service to achieve cheap "pretty narratives". He doesn't have insects like Kuririn and tien doing much because they are weak and useless, as it was MEANT TO BE. And to zeno, yeah zeno is the god of everything! By his will is what keeps the multiverse in tact or not. NOTHING else, no character development or "redemption" for him. Why would he care to have one? And what are petty and insignificant mortals going to do to change the attitude of all powerful zeno? I dream I could do stuff like this. Petty unwise and unruly weaklings dare testify and protest against me to achieve unnatural things? absolute not. Those I would rule who be a flower to my kingdom, they do well - those who try to be a thorn to myself and kingdom, they will BEGONE! People ought to accept that some things ought not meant to be. Accept it and makes use of what you have, dutifully improving on what you have and let fate guide you. Not rig the natural orders of things so you can get what you want. That's actual character stagnation!
Kinda like Kuririn taking on ssj blue even though it made no sense and was beyond stupid, it was just to show "it doesn't matter if you're a human and haven't trained all but for just a few months, you can go against ssj blue goku"... all to instill this "feel good" feeling of human empowerment in dragon ball. The same thing in the future trunks arc with stinking tear gas could confuse gods of ssj ROSE black and zamsu? or giving ssj2 trunks un natural wank just because "it's his story so he deserves it". Rigging the system to get what you want because it makes for "prettier" narrative, irregardless of it actually made sense and was AUTHENTIC.
You realize this is a fictional story and you shouldn't be projecting what you think happens in real life, right?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:48 am

fexus wrote: You need to get this. We are not comparing the manga to a void of nothingness. We are comparing it to the anime which did the ToP much better. The manga while I can say is more the "thinking" man dragon ball. The anime is the one that people would likely like more. The one that is more likely to be remembered.

Aniraza while not supposed to be the one threat to rule them all, is still a considerable one. Kale backstory is in no way interesting enough to have her one panel Aniraza. The whole scene was treated like a joke. A horribly made one at that. I do wonder would you still defend Toyotaro doing the same thing but with Kuririn instead. Maybe Kuririn have some hidden power no one knows about right? Oh maybe he learn UI like Roshi. It's the state of mind with fans like you that vehemently defend Toyotaro. It's like you guys are giving him more chance then he should have gotten.
Kale was relevant to the development of the ToP. Her rampage served as an instrument to the chaotic feeling of the ToP, both anime and manga. Aniraza served no real narrative purpose other than to be a one-episode one-panel boss. Getting hung up about Aniraza is like getting hung up about Burter or Yakon. They aren't that important and are ultimately quickly disposable.

"Vehemently defend Toyotaro" this is ridiculous. Is that what you tell every fan that doesn't agree with your point of view? Roshi served a purpose to the concept of UI that fans like to treat with stupid power levels. Don't blame the people that don't view the series as narrow-minded as you do.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:53 am

WittyUsername wrote: Besides, I hate the idea of an entire arc solely being the result of some invincible manchild’s own personal amusement, with none of the characters being able to do anything about it. I personally can’t stand stories like that. That just makes it seem incredibly frustrating and needlessly cruel. I know the Dragon Ball franchise can be pretty cynical at times, but if the entire multiverse is such a shitty place to the point where God is just some malevolent manchild, why the hell should I care about what happens to anyone? That’s something that TV Tropes would call “Darkness Induced Audience Apathy”. It’s a comic book/cartoon series for kids, not Greek mythology.
That's exactly what Zeno is. He is a mistake of a DB character in general and a mark that Toriyama has lost it when it comes to expanding the lore.

17 wishing what he did is a defiant stand against these two child clowns. To have them make the Tournament as some kind of morality test is unlikely given their simple characterization.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:36 am

Rakurai wrote:
fexus wrote: You need to get this. We are not comparing the manga to a void of nothingness. We are comparing it to the anime which did the ToP much better. The manga while I can say is more the "thinking" man dragon ball. The anime is the one that people would likely like more. The one that is more likely to be remembered.

Aniraza while not supposed to be the one threat to rule them all, is still a considerable one. Kale backstory is in no way interesting enough to have her one panel Aniraza. The whole scene was treated like a joke. A horribly made one at that. I do wonder would you still defend Toyotaro doing the same thing but with Kuririn instead. Maybe Kuririn have some hidden power no one knows about right? Oh maybe he learn UI like Roshi. It's the state of mind with fans like you that vehemently defend Toyotaro. It's like you guys are giving him more chance then he should have gotten.
Kale was relevant to the development of the ToP. Her rampage served as an instrument to the chaotic feeling of the ToP, both anime and manga. Aniraza served no real narrative purpose other than to be a one-episode one-panel boss. Getting hung up about Aniraza is like getting hung up about Burter or Yakon. They aren't that important and are ultimately quickly disposable.

"Vehemently defend Toyotaro" this is ridiculous. Is that what you tell every fan that doesn't agree with your point of view? Roshi served a purpose to the concept of UI that fans like to treat with stupid power levels. Don't blame the people that don't view the series as narrow-minded as you do.
Aniraza was the culmination of Universe 3 final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime which did much better. Toyotaro deleting this from the manga, only makes the manga have less content overall. This isn't like past situation where they were doing this to let the manga catch up.

Yes, vehemently defend Toyotaro. Lets see. Can anybody here criticize Toyotaro's art, paneling, flow of action and/or writing and have any of you Toyotaro fans accept any of it? Heck, a youtube video doing exactly that minus the writing part have received a lot of hate here. A LOT OF HATE. UI Roshi part that isn't actually logical cannot be criticized without being called a hater. Having Goku lose his martial arts prodigy trait is also acceptable to you people. What can't Toyotaro do? Anything? Nothing?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:42 am

TheMikado wrote:If Frieza was such a universal threat and they had these bad-ass Galatic Patrollers running around the entire time, why was Frieza or his low-level henchmen a threat in the first place? Especially in a Universe where there are only 28 planets with intelligent life to begin with...
What? So you're telling that Universe 7 divided by four galaxies (North, West, East, South) has only 28 planets with intelelligent life? That's impossible.
AnimeNation101 wrote:But the way he bashed Toyo at the end was a uncalled for.
No, actually it was well said. Toyotaro is not the right guy to be in charge of directing a Dragon Ball sequel. It's clear that he doesn't comprehend the weight or the size of this franchise, hence why the manga doesn't meet the expectations of large majority of the fan base.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:52 am

Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote: Besides, I hate the idea of an entire arc solely being the result of some invincible manchild’s own personal amusement, with none of the characters being able to do anything about it. I personally can’t stand stories like that. That just makes it seem incredibly frustrating and needlessly cruel. I know the Dragon Ball franchise can be pretty cynical at times, but if the entire multiverse is such a shitty place to the point where God is just some malevolent manchild, why the hell should I care about what happens to anyone? That’s something that TV Tropes would call “Darkness Induced Audience Apathy”. It’s a comic book/cartoon series for kids, not Greek mythology.
That's exactly what Zeno is. He is a mistake of a DB character in general and a mark that Toriyama has lost it when it comes to expanding the lore.

17 wishing what he did is a defiant stand against these two child clowns. To have them make the Tournament as some kind of morality test is unlikely given their simple characterization.
That still begs the question of why they didn’t just erase the universes again after 17 made his wish. If their whole goal was to get rid of the lesser universes because they thought there were too many to keep track of, why did they leave the universes alone after 17 wished them back? Even if we interpret 17’s wish as an act of defiance against these childish assholes, it comes across as hollow when you consider that there’s nothing stopping them from just wiping everything out again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am

fexus wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
fexus wrote: You need to get this. We are not comparing the manga to a void of nothingness. We are comparing it to the anime which did the ToP much better. The manga while I can say is more the "thinking" man dragon ball. The anime is the one that people would likely like more. The one that is more likely to be remembered.

Aniraza while not supposed to be the one threat to rule them all, is still a considerable one. Kale backstory is in no way interesting enough to have her one panel Aniraza. The whole scene was treated like a joke. A horribly made one at that. I do wonder would you still defend Toyotaro doing the same thing but with Kuririn instead. Maybe Kuririn have some hidden power no one knows about right? Oh maybe he learn UI like Roshi. It's the state of mind with fans like you that vehemently defend Toyotaro. It's like you guys are giving him more chance then he should have gotten.
Kale was relevant to the development of the ToP. Her rampage served as an instrument to the chaotic feeling of the ToP, both anime and manga. Aniraza served no real narrative purpose other than to be a one-episode one-panel boss. Getting hung up about Aniraza is like getting hung up about Burter or Yakon. They aren't that important and are ultimately quickly disposable.

"Vehemently defend Toyotaro" this is ridiculous. Is that what you tell every fan that doesn't agree with your point of view? Roshi served a purpose to the concept of UI that fans like to treat with stupid power levels. Don't blame the people that don't view the series as narrow-minded as you do.
Aniraza was the culmination of Universe 3 final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime which did much better. Toyotaro deleting this from the manga, only makes the manga have less content overall. This isn't like past situation where they were doing this to let the manga catch up.

Yes, vehemently defend Toyotaro. Lets see. Can anybody here criticize Toyotaro's art, paneling, flow of action and/or writing and have any of you Toyotaro fans accept any of it? Heck, a youtube video doing exactly that minus the writing part have received a lot of hate here. A LOT OF HATE. UI Roshi part that isn't actually logical cannot be criticized without being called a hater. Having Goku lose his martial arts prodigy trait is also acceptable to you people. What can't Toyotaro do? Anything? Nothing?
Dude, calm down. Stop getting triggered over people's opinion. We like toyotaro, and many of us on this forum found toei's dbs to be straight trash. Simple. In comparison to toei, there's high likeyhood we will value toyo's work over toei, because we feel toei did that much of an terrible job on super. If you can't stomach such opinion, you shouldn't be on this forum thread.
WittyUsername wrote:
Or how about you just wait for translations to come out? you're just looking at panels and getting worked-up. What's wrong with you people?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:04 am

Son-Kakaroto wrote:
fexus wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Kale was relevant to the development of the ToP. Her rampage served as an instrument to the chaotic feeling of the ToP, both anime and manga. Aniraza served no real narrative purpose other than to be a one-episode one-panel boss. Getting hung up about Aniraza is like getting hung up about Burter or Yakon. They aren't that important and are ultimately quickly disposable.

"Vehemently defend Toyotaro" this is ridiculous. Is that what you tell every fan that doesn't agree with your point of view? Roshi served a purpose to the concept of UI that fans like to treat with stupid power levels. Don't blame the people that don't view the series as narrow-minded as you do.
Aniraza was the culmination of Universe 3 final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime which did much better. Toyotaro deleting this from the manga, only makes the manga have less content overall. This isn't like past situation where they were doing this to let the manga catch up.

Yes, vehemently defend Toyotaro. Lets see. Can anybody here criticize Toyotaro's art, paneling, flow of action and/or writing and have any of you Toyotaro fans accept any of it? Heck, a youtube video doing exactly that minus the writing part have received a lot of hate here. A LOT OF HATE. UI Roshi part that isn't actually logical cannot be criticized without being called a hater. Having Goku lose his martial arts prodigy trait is also acceptable to you people. What can't Toyotaro do? Anything? Nothing?
Dude, calm down. Stop getting triggered over people's opinion. We like toyotaro, and many of us on this forum found toei's dbs to be straight trash. Simple. In comparison to toei, there's high likeyhood we will value toyo's work over toei, because we feel toei did that much of an terrible job on super. If you can't stomach such opinion, you shouldn't be on this forum thread.
I couldn't agree more... he is getting tilted and pissed off because we don't share the same opinions.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:30 am

Son-Kakaroto wrote: Or how about you just wait for translations to come out? you're just looking at panels and getting worked-up. What's wrong with you people?
All I know is that the description I’ve heard said that the Grand Priest was apparently surprised by #17’s wish, with there being no mention of the Zen-Ohs having planned any of this. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I was simply expressing my disappointment at the lack of any mention about the tournament being a test from what we’ve heard thus far. There’s no need to be so confrontational about that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:04 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: Or how about you just wait for translations to come out? you're just looking at panels and getting worked-up. What's wrong with you people?
All I know is that the description I’ve heard said that the Grand Priest was apparently surprised by #17’s wish, with there being no mention of the Zen-Ohs having planned any of this. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I was simply expressing my disappointment at the lack of any mention about the tournament being a test from what we’ve heard thus far. There’s no need to be so confrontational about that.
I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:18 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: Or how about you just wait for translations to come out? you're just looking at panels and getting worked-up. What's wrong with you people?
All I know is that the description I’ve heard said that the Grand Priest was apparently surprised by #17’s wish, with there being no mention of the Zen-Ohs having planned any of this. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I was simply expressing my disappointment at the lack of any mention about the tournament being a test from what we’ve heard thus far. There’s no need to be so confrontational about that.
I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.
It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:27 pm

BrolyKale wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
All I know is that the description I’ve heard said that the Grand Priest was apparently surprised by #17’s wish, with there being no mention of the Zen-Ohs having planned any of this. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I was simply expressing my disappointment at the lack of any mention about the tournament being a test from what we’ve heard thus far. There’s no need to be so confrontational about that.
I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.
It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.
Good start, but I need something more, like a lesson so zeno won't need to wish to erase all of the universes again. He only wanted them gone because they weren't improving and it was stressful looking after all 12 of them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Darkseid » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:28 pm

BrolyKale wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
All I know is that the description I’ve heard said that the Grand Priest was apparently surprised by #17’s wish, with there being no mention of the Zen-Ohs having planned any of this. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I was simply expressing my disappointment at the lack of any mention about the tournament being a test from what we’ve heard thus far. There’s no need to be so confrontational about that.
I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.
It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.
I mean they can basically do whatever they want. Remember they threatened to destroy the twelve universes because they were angry about Beerus sleeping through their game of hid´n seek. They could simply let them live because they enjoyed the tournament so much. They are overpowered children. Unpredictable and dont really give a dam about mortals.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:37 pm

Darkseid wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.
It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.
I mean they can basically do whatever they want. Remember they threatened to destroy the twelve universes because they were angry about Beerus sleeping through their game of hid´n seek. They could simply let them live because they enjoyed the tournament so much. I actually like them better this way because they fit better with the way Toriyama portrays his gods (incompetent, lazy etc.) rather than the "benevolent" gods the anime kinda sorta portrays them as.
That's a good idea. Because they enjoyed the tournament so much they decide to bring back all universes as a reward.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I find the tourney being a "test" stupid, but I also find them being allowed to just wish back all universes to be extremely stupid as well.
It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.
Good start, but I need something more, like a lesson so zeno won't need to wish to erase all of the universes again. He only wanted them gone because they weren't improving and it was stressful looking after all 12 of them.
That’s why making the tournament a test made perfect sense to me. It suggested that Zen-Oh wanted proof that at least one of the lower ranking universes had beings who were capable of showing the necessary compassion that could lead to improvement.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:47 pm

BrolyKale wrote:That's a good idea. Because they enjoyed the tournament so much they decide to bring back all universes as a reward.
That's not said anywhere.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:01 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:That's a good idea. Because they enjoyed the tournament so much they decide to bring back all universes as a reward.
That's not said anywhere.
Did I say it was said anywhere? :think: I just said it was a "good idea" but I may not have expressed myself very well, I'm sorry about that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:22 pm

fexus wrote:
prince212 wrote:
fexus wrote:
The bigger problem is that many of the fans are giving excusing Toyo for this and even worse giving excuses for Toyo. You don't need to defend every mistake he does.
. Heck, I don't see any hype from the community besides the people defending the manga. Not to mention this introduce too many plotholes that I hope would be explained later on.
. As I said many times before, it's even worse because there are many fans of the manga that don't want Toyotaro to receive any criticism. If not you, I don't really care but there are people like that. Even in this very thread.
I think , as you said many times before , what bothers you is people with different opinion that yours , open your mind , don’t need to call them defenders , they just think different in that matter .
I’ve been following this forum for a while and everybody has his own points to criticize lots of things about this manga , so the point you are trying to make about “defending all toyo does “ , is not appropriate and not real .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:23 pm

fexus wrote:
Aniraza was the culmination of Universe 3 final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime which did much better. Toyotaro deleting this from the manga, only makes the manga have less content overall.
The Purple Comet Attack was the culmination of the Ginyu Force's final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime, which did much better. Toriyama not having the Purple Comet Attack in the manga only makes the manga have less content overall.

As you can see, your argument is pretty nonsensical. What the anime does has no bearing on the manga. Your expectations from the anime mean absolutely nothing. Toyotaro isn't at liberty to accommodate the anime's frivolous details.

Your complaint is about as legitimate as watching an episode of Dora the Explorer and being mad that no Mexican Drug Cartels got featured. Your expectations mean nothing. The product delivers a story irrespective of your desires.

Since this "Totally Not Mark" person keeps being brought up, I will bring up someone who actually created something:

Director Scott Derrickson recently talked about this phenomena of people going into things and then judging said things by what they expected instead of just judging them based on their own merits.
Scott Derrickson wrote:I really enjoyed Bohemian Rhapsody. Most criticisms I’ve read about the film say it could’ve been something more. But I refuse to judge a film by I wanted it to be, I receive it for what it is. You think a good critic should judge a film not being what he/she wanted it to be? No, thats a bad critic. A good critic judges films - good or bad - based on what they are — it’s the film that matters, not a critic’s expectations or opinions about what it should have been.
Of course, I only mention this point because it so strongly matches up with mine. I'm fairly tired of these lengthy talking points that amount to "Why isn't the manga doing what the anime did?" Different medium, different author, different story. Leave the baggage you bring in from the anime and engage with the different story being told.

Now back to your point specifically: in the manga, "Aniraza" is just a fusion with lots of power that got eliminated by Kale. That's all he amounts to, and that's all he needs to be.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:29 pm

BrolyKale wrote:Did I say it was said anywhere? :think: I just said it was a "good idea" but I may not have expressed myself very well, I'm sorry about that.
I understood what you said, I just pointed out that wasn't said in the manga.
TKA wrote:Director Scott Derrickson recently talked about this phenomena of people going into things and then judging said things by what they expected instead of just judging them based on their own merits.
Scott Derrickson wrote:I really enjoyed Bohemian Rhapsody. Most criticisms I’ve read about the film say it could’ve been something more. But I refuse to judge a film by I wanted it to be, I receive it for what it is. You think a good critic should judge a film not being what he/she wanted it to be? No, thats a bad critic. A good critic judges films - good or bad - based on what they are — it’s the film that matters, not a critic’s expectations or opinions about what it should have been.
Since you said stuff like "this is how a battle royal should be", maybe you could take that hint as well.
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