"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

Aniraza was the culmination of Universe 3 final effort. The thing here is we are comparing this to the anime which did much better. Toyotaro deleting this from the manga, only makes the manga have less content overall. This isn't like past situation where they were doing this to let the manga catch up.

Yes, vehemently defend Toyotaro. Lets see. Can anybody here criticize Toyotaro's art, paneling, flow of action and/or writing and have any of you Toyotaro fans accept any of it? Heck, a youtube video doing exactly that minus the writing part have received a lot of hate here. A LOT OF HATE. UI Roshi part that isn't actually logical cannot be criticized without being called a hater. Having Goku lose his martial arts prodigy trait is also acceptable to you people. What can't Toyotaro do? Anything? Nothing?

And have you ever read the original manga? Fights tend to be very concise, sometimes even glossed over. I always said that the Super manga should be compared w.r.t. the original DB manga, of which it is the sequel to. Not the anime, since they are not adaptations of each other but of Toriyama's outlines. For people who read the manga, knowing about Aniraza isn't important. U3 isn't important overall to the arc, and Toyotarou has never tried to imply it.

"Can anybody criticize..." lmao. You obviously have not been in this thread long enough or bothered to look through the thread at all. I've criticized him several times on his art, paneling, etc. But Toyotarou's shown a lot of potential too. You also misconstrued our responses to those DB YouTube videos. We all already know Toyo's weaknesses, we nor anybody else needs to make 12 min. long minutes explaining the obvious especially when the YouTuber keeps making them. And especially when he is completely disrespectful and a total asshole to the subject he is talking about.

You want to shit on the manga, go for it. We're not worried about that. If people want to disagree or argue back, then back up your shit instead of falling back to a fanboy/apologist/hater argument. Because that serves no purpose except show how emotional & pathetic your arguments are. When I talk about or shit on any part of DB, whether manga or anime, I do so with reason and back it up. I see invalid criticism, I explain it.

As for "UI" Roshi? Here's my logic/thoughts when the chapter came out. Here you go (spoiler because it's long):

Spoiler:

"Before people jump the gun on Muten Roshi using "UI" and complaining about it, I wanna say how much I love this. Not because of favoritism for Roshi or humor for memes/jokes, but because of the narrative at work here.

In reality, Toyotaro is using an established character Goku not only admires and respects, but loves like his own grandpa, to show him how to use a real-life martial arts concept, also known in DB as Ultra Instinct. The reality is that "your body moving on its own" is a traditional martial arts concept that actually exists in the real world. Ultra Instinct, or the principles of it, is basically the DB version of real world martial art.

Roshi, Karin, Popo, Kami, King Kai, and finally Whis. Goku's teachers over the course of this series. All of them have mentioned in the past of using this technique in some form or fashion. Goku though he has trained under them, has never really "mastered" what the essence of what they wanted to get across. Throughout all of DB, back then and even now, Goku has solely relied on strength through his genes and heritage. He's pushed the SSJ limits countless times. The only thing left for him is SSJ4, but obviously that's out of the question here. He's got god ki and combined SSJ with it for more power. He's already in the ball field with the big boys, he's GoD candidate material. The story tells us the only thing left for Goku and Vegeta is UI, a technique that Whis twice in the manga tells them can allow them to overcome any obstacle and threat. Whether it be Beerus who's still absurdly more powerful than either of them or the next opponent (Jiren) they face. Whis' introduction and telling them about how Beerus is working to master it foreshadows Goku learning UI.

But right now Goku needs to overcome his current wall. He needs to beat Jiren. He wants more power, something that he's constantly pushed throughout his entire life and, for better or for worse, introduced all the powerscaling banter. It's the standard way he's approached every single enemy ever since Raditz first arrived on Earth. He's essentially forgotten the words of his teachers. With Muten Roshi there directly overseeing his performance, he takes a moment to remind Goku the original teachings that every master he's had has preached, but Goku never took to heart.

Toyotaro used Jiren on purpose. One could say the manga has the luxury of foresight. He knows that Jiren is the largest threat because the anime never showed us a larger threat all the way up until the end (ignore Broly for a moment in that regard). Jiren and Roshi represent the largest power gap in the series. This is intentional. If by using the principles of UI, Roshi could dance Jiren for even a single second, that is proof in the pudding that if Goku, someone much closer to Jiren, were to master it, he would be unstoppable juggernaut even in the face of Jiren, a man stronger than a GoD. It isn't until Goku attempts to do what Roshi showed him does he unlock "Omen," which isn't even the true UI technique.

When Roshi barely dodges a rib shot and a mustache shot, Jiren is not by any means trying to kill him. And when he finally gets serious, how does he overcome Roshi's flimsy UI? He lightly neckchops him and it sends him flying out. Neck chopping btw in Dragon Ball is code for lovingly tapping someone to get rid of them. F. Gohan did it to F. Trunks, Vegeta did it to Trunks, and now Jiren did it to Roshi, who was mildly annoying him. But if Roshi of all people could even mildly annoy Jiren? That's a feat worthy of godly praise greater than no other.

Toyotaro is actually trying to come full circle with a technique foreshadowed even before Whis mentioned it. Contrived? Maybe. But frankly it's not a stretch of imagination by DB standards of plot, and it helps doing something else for a start.

So either you can have all of that... or Goku absorbs his own Spirit bomb. Your choice."

[TKA]

Since you said stuff like "this is how a battle royal should be", maybe you could take that hint as well.

Did you not understand context?

The battle royale is the setting. They said in the goddamn show that this will be different than standard tournaments because it's a battle royale. They emphasized that it would be different and even used that as reasoning for why Roshi is a good fit and Goten and Trunks aren't. The show told me what to expect.

And then it didn't deliver. That's obviously pretty fucking different from "Aniraza" showing up for one page and then getting immediately knocked out. Maybe if there was a chapter spent hyping him up only for him to fail, then you'd have an argument. As it stands, you don't.

Stop trying with these "Gotcha" type posts and actually construct something substantive.

[Son-Kakaroto]

It would be understandable if the Zenos accepted bringing back all universes out of respect for the winner.

Good start, but I need something more, like a lesson so zeno won't need to wish to erase all of the universes again. He only wanted them gone because they weren't improving and it was stressful looking after all 12 of them.

That’s why making the tournament a test made perfect sense to me. It suggested that Zen-Oh wanted proof that at least one of the lower ranking universes had beings who were capable of showing the necessary compassion that could lead to improvement.

Not exactly "perfect" for the anime since the way of how they portrayed zeno and the reason for them wanting to destroy the universe does not seem like a suffcient and congruent way to "redeem" the universe. Plus the message of "if you make a wish that isn't this specific one, you are dead even though I told you could have any wish" isn't exactly a great message when you think about it. But the anime at least tried to explain the signficance of the tourney, hopefully the manga does too, which I doubt it will.

[alakazam^]

Did you not understand context?

The battle royale is the setting. They said in the goddamn show that this will be different than standard tournaments because it's a battle royale. They emphasized that it would be different and even used that as reasoning for why Roshi is a good fit and Goten and Trunks aren't. The show told me what to expect.

And then it didn't deliver. That's obviously pretty fucking different from "Aniraza" showing up for one page and then getting immediately knocked out. Maybe if there was a chapter spent hyping him up only for him to fail, then you'd have an argument. As it stands, you don't.

Stop trying with these "Gotcha" type posts and actually construct something substantive.

Yeah, first you need to calm down.

Second, it doesn't surprise me that you tried turning it around but that won't fly. You, again and again, praised the manga for how it approached the setting "this is what a battle royal should be!", "Toyotarou is awesome because he made Kale eliminate all those fodder nobodies at once" and such nonsense. Now, I see no difference between that and "people going into things and then judging said things by what they expected" and if you're intelectually honest you'll agree as well. Which means you're being a hypocrite since you're contributing to the same type of posts you're supposedly "farily tired of".

Then, you mention the anime because of course the anime needs to be constantly referred to in the manga thread. It's all fine and dandy since one can always hide between the "it's my opinion" excuse but, unfortunately, we all remember you don't know what you're talking about since you didn't watch the whole arc, which makes your opinions reek of bias. Sure, you watched some of it but not enough for you to state it "didn't deliver", and deliver on what? Your expectations, of course, which comes around to that hint you need to take. The result is a big waste of everyone's times since you're not discussing anything and it isn't on-topic either, you just overcompensate Toyotarou's choices because you hated what Toei did and you need to get it all out in some way.

I appreciate your concern about my posts but I'd rather you take the time you spend venting your bias and actually move on. The arc is over so enough with this.

Not exactly "perfect" for the anime since the way of how they portrayed zeno and the reason for them wanting to destroy the universe does not seem like a suffcient and congruent way to "redeem" the universe. Plus the message of "if you make a wish that isn't this specific one, you are dead even though I told you could have any wish" isn't exactly a great message when you think about it. But the anime at least tried to explain the signficance of the tourney, hopefully the manga does too, which I doubt it will.

It doesn't. After the wish, everyone goes back to their Universes and the Grand Priest only says that Universe 7 raised its level.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Did you not understand context?

The battle royale is the setting. They said in the goddamn show that this will be different than standard tournaments because it's a battle royale. They emphasized that it would be different and even used that as reasoning for why Roshi is a good fit and Goten and Trunks aren't. The show told me what to expect.

And then it didn't deliver. That's obviously pretty fucking different from "Aniraza" showing up for one page and then getting immediately knocked out. Maybe if there was a chapter spent hyping him up only for him to fail, then you'd have an argument. As it stands, you don't.

Stop trying with these "Gotcha" type posts and actually construct something substantive.

Yeah, first you need to calm down.

Second, it doesn't surprise me that you tried turning it around but that won't fly. You, again and again, praised the manga for how it approached the setting "this is what a battle royal should be!", "Toyotarou is awesome because he made Kale eliminate all those fodder nobodies at once" and such nonsense. Now, I see no difference between that and "people going into things and then judging said things by what they expected" and if you're intelectually honest you'll agree as well. Which means you're being a hypocrite since you're contributing to the same type of posts you're supposedly "farily tired of".

Then, you mention the anime because of course the anime needs to be constantly referred to in the manga thread. It's all fine and dandy since one can always hide between the "it's my opinion" excuse but, unfortunately, we all remember you don't know what you're talking about since you didn't watch the whole arc, which makes your opinions reek of bias. Sure, you watched some of it but not enough for you to state it "didn't deliver", and deliver on what? Your expectations, of course, which comes around to that hint you need to take. The result is a big waste of everyone's times since you're not discussing anything and it isn't on-topic either, you just overcompensate Toyotarou's choices because you hated what Toei did and you need to get it all out in some way.

I appreciate your concern about my posts but I'd rather you take the time you spend venting your bias and actually move on. The arc is over so enough with this.

Not exactly "perfect" for the anime since the way of how they portrayed zeno and the reason for them wanting to destroy the universe does not seem like a suffcient and congruent way to "redeem" the universe. Plus the message of "if you make a wish that isn't this specific one, you are dead even though I told you could have any wish" isn't exactly a great message when you think about it. But the anime at least tried to explain the signficance of the tourney, hopefully the manga does too, which I doubt it will.

It doesn't. After the wish, everyone goes back to their Universes and the Grand Priest only says that Universe 7 raised its level.

Oh well, that's unfortunate. I'll await viz translations.

Anyway, I'm going to grab some popcorn because you and TKA are starting to sizzle things up!

[Bergamo]

@alakazam^

Can you stop constantly complaining about how people mention the anime in the manga thread. It's annoying and it clearly hasn't accomplished anything. You can compare the 2 versions of the story without making it a competition, so saying, "what about the Anime vs. Manga thread," isn't always valid. Not to mention you hardly add anything new to the conversation and you just type the same thing over and over.

[Noah]

I appreciate your concern about my posts but I'd rather you take the time you spend venting your bias and actually move on. The arc is over so enough with this.

Yeah, but you don't need to be so harsh with TKA, he's a good fella even though his love for the manga blinds him while discussing about the anime.

Can you stop constantly complaining about how people mention the anime in the manga thread. It's annoying and it clearly hasn't accomplished anything. You can compare the 2 versions of the story without making it a competition, so saying, "what about the Anime vs. Manga thread," isn't always valid. Not to mention you hardly add anything new to the conversation and you just type the same thing over and over.

He's right to be complaining about, people who prefer the manga can't just praise the manga without undervaluing the anime. I mean for realsies, both medias are nothing but average, with the anime being a few notches better, it doesn't change anyone opinion you stating you like x because y is trash in your view.

[goku the krump dancer]

I dont see why its so hard to believe that a character we dont know can take Goku and Vegeta off gaurd when they're in there most restricted form and are barely even have serious..

These guys are going after Boo! Lets humble ourselves for a bit guys, even though Our main cast has entered "God-Level" (At their max) this is still Majin Freaking Boo we're talking about here, out side of Beerus and God of Destruction candidates this is still a tall fucking order and they've been able to immobilize him with seemingly little to no effort.

[Bergamo]

I appreciate your concern about my posts but I'd rather you take the time you spend venting your bias and actually move on. The arc is over so enough with this.

Yeah, but you don't need to be so harsh with TKA, he's a good fella even though his love for the manga blinds him while discussing about the anime.

Can you stop constantly complaining about how people mention the anime in the manga thread. It's annoying and it clearly hasn't accomplished anything. You can compare the 2 versions of the story without making it a competition, so saying, "what about the Anime vs. Manga thread," isn't always valid. Not to mention you hardly add anything new to the conversation and you just type the same thing over and over.

He's right to be complaining about, people who prefer the manga can't just praise the manga without undervaluing the anime. I mean for realsies, both medias are nothing but average, with the anime being a few notches better, it doesn't change anyone opinion you stating you like x because y is trash in your view.

People can prefer the manga without trashing the anime, and they do. If everytime somebody mentioned something positive about the manga without referencing the anime I replied saying,"See look," then it would get annoying. This is why alakazam's comments need to stop. They add nothing new. If it really bothers him, he can ignore posts he doesn't like, or make a new thread so that the discussion stays on a topic that he likes.

[Son-Kakaroto]

Guys, I think we all need to take a deep breath and calm our heads. Now who would like a cup of tea?

It's some pretty dank tea

[Noah]

I dont see why its so hard to believe that a character we dont know can take Goku and Vegeta off gaurd when they're in there most restricted form and are barely even have serious...

Easy: these guys are not amateurs, they train since they were childs and also were trained under the master of the U7 Hakaishin, plus three years on the Room Of Spirit and Chamber. It's stupid and as someone mentioned: Jaco could be used to introduce the plot rather than a random nobody managing to put both Saiyans to sleep.

[Doctor.]

@alakazam^

Can you stop constantly complaining about how people mention the anime in the manga thread. It's annoying and it clearly hasn't accomplished anything. You can compare the 2 versions of the story without making it a competition, so saying, "what about the Anime vs. Manga thread," isn't always valid. Not to mention you hardly add anything new to the conversation and you just type the same thing over and over.

It's only fair he asks people to stop mentioning the anime when the people bringing it up are constantly claiming they don't care about comparing the anime to the manga when it doesn't suit their argument.

Goku and Vegeta aren't above getting (...) outsped by an elite patrolman in their base forms.

They objectively are, but even if they weren't, it's more than tiresome at this point how "being caught off-guard" is used as an (increasingly lazy) excuse for whatever new plot point Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro want to cook up.

[goku the krump dancer]

Easy: these guys are not amateurs,

And neither is the guy who knocked them out, he is the top cop of the universe for a reason. He did take Boo out after all as well and thats by no means an easy feat.

[Tai Lung]

my latest review of the tournament arch of Toyotaro
-It was not possible to do anything with the rivalry of Quitela and Beerus despite the fact that as such he was born in this version .. in his fight between the destroying gods
-One would think that having the manga, caulifla and kale attacked the soldiers of sadala comrades of cabba was to sow some tension in the U6 team since the alliance was forced for the sake of that universe something like goku and piccolo against raditz to a lesser extent but not ... they forget this event instantly it just makes useless almost all that part instead of focusing on the training of gohan and piccolo
-It seems that universes will not be seen coming back at all ...

in general I like the manga and the anime although I can recognize when one does things better as the case of the version of Zamasu in the manga, I liked more.
I recognize that both have their mistakes but I have already said because in the case of TOP the "toei version" seems to me better I love a lot of the fights like toppo vs vegeta, hit vs dyspo, jiren vs Goku, gohan vs obuni, kefla vs goku etc also many skills I liked and the interactions, dialogos in addition to the development of some characters were memorables something that toyo could not give in the version of manga, I'm sorry but its version really sucks.


let's see how it goes with this .. in case to deal with the subject of buu and the kaioshin has potential that is not touched much in z, with the patrollers is somewhat late .. but it is something at least original

[Son-Kakaroto]

Easy: these guys are not amateurs,

And neither is the guy who knocked them out, he is the top cop of the universe for a reason. He did take Boo out after all as well and thats by no means an easy feat.

Lol, he didn't "take out" buu, as he was already alseep.

[PFM18]

They objectively are, but even if they weren't, it's more than tiresome at this point how "being caught off-guard" is used as an (increasingly lazy) excuse for whatever new plot point Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro want to cook up.

As opposed to hopelessly crippling the plot because "GOKU AND VEGETA ARE SO STRONGGGG!!!!" The story isn't suddenly ruined because Goku and Vegeta were knocked unconscious by a mystery character in their Base forms. If we nitpick every tiny little detail in favor of discussing where power levels work into this ad ad nauseam, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.

Also, you're going to have to elaborate on how Goku and Vegeta are "objectively" above getting knocked out in their Base forms.

[goku the krump dancer]

Easy: these guys are not amateurs,

And neither is the guy who knocked them out, he is the top cop of the universe for a reason. He did take Boo out after all as well and thats by no means an easy feat.

Lol, he didn't "take out" buu, as he was already alseep.

Just checked Geekdom's video.. You seem to be right, however I still think its a bit silly to get this hung up about Goku and Vegeta being sniped by someone we barely know!.Still waiting for Viz's translations.

[Son-Kakaroto]

And neither is the guy who knocked them out, he is the top cop of the universe for a reason. He did take Boo out after all as well and thats by no means an easy feat.

Lol, he didn't "take out" buu, as he was already alseep.

Just checked Geekdom's video.. You seem to be right, however I still think its a bit silly to get this hung up about Goku and Vegeta being sniped by someone we barely know!.Still waiting for Viz's translations.

No I agree, it's base goku and vegeta. The anime literally does this but like 10000000x worse (ahem, TEAR GAS hurting SSJ ROSE BLACK and zamsu), base goku and vegeta were probably very surpessed anyways. It's just not a big deal.

[YamiGoku]

They objectively are, but even if they weren't, it's more than tiresome at this point how "being caught off-guard" is used as an (increasingly lazy) excuse for whatever new plot point Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro want to cook up.

As opposed to hopelessly crippling the plot because "GOKU AND VEGETA ARE SO STRONGGGG!!!!" The story isn't suddenly ruined because Goku and Vegeta were knocked unconscious by a mystery character in their Base forms. If we nitpick every tiny little detail in favor of discussing where power levels work into this ad ad nauseam, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.

Also, you're going to have to elaborate on how Goku and Vegeta are "objectively" above getting knocked out in their Base forms.

I agree that we shouldnt stop the story just because of power levels, but at the same time the "off guard" thing is getting really old, and Goku and Vegeta already went thru that lecture from whis, and how many more times are they going to fail to be on guard against an enemy?

[Doctor.]

They objectively are, but even if they weren't, it's more than tiresome at this point how "being caught off-guard" is used as an (increasingly lazy) excuse for whatever new plot point Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro want to cook up.

As opposed to hopelessly crippling the plot because "GOKU AND VEGETA ARE SO STRONGGGG!!!!" The story isn't suddenly ruined because Goku and Vegeta were knocked unconscious by a mystery character in their Base forms. If we nitpick every tiny little detail in favor of discussing where power levels work into this ad ad nauseam, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.

Also, you're going to have to elaborate on how Goku and Vegeta are "objectively" above getting knocked out in their Base forms.

A good writer would work around Goku and Vegeta's retard strength instead of pretending like they're vulnerable weaklings. Of course, a good writer wouldn't make Goku and Vegeta this strong so soon after introducing the multiverse concept, but that's a different story entirely. And this wasn't about powerlevels. I literally said "even if they weren't (above getting outsped)" that it's STILL a lazy excuse only because of how often it's used to introduce the next plot point.

I said they're objectively above getting outsped by some random shmucks too afraid to deal with Freeza's empire a few decades ago, which they are.