"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:38 am

The Goat is a unique design so it's off to a good start.

I think the Goat will probably be more special ability based than just power.

Since he escaped he probably has some minions unless the galactic patrol let their guard down which won't be a surprise.

What is this Goat going to do now he has escaped?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:33 am

I like the design too. Less emphasis on external brawn and more put on the esoteric strangeness of his appearance and possible personality. We've had very few antagonists that could be described as unorthodox with respect to their aptitude -- the ones that come to mind are Guldo and Babidi. Magic doesn't get enough focus in this show, and while we shouldn't be rushing to conclusions about how this character composes himself or what his aims are, I hope he does something to stick out from the numerous bodybuilders that make up the overwhelming majority of villains in this series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolySSJL » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 am

Tai Lung wrote:well zamasu and black were created by toriyama although others said the opposite in this case may then reveal more of this new character in later interviews
A lot of Black arc were ideas of Toyo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:04 am

i'm kinda reserved about this new character, I will wait for further look and see if the character have a good personnality too.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:24 am

The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:24 am

He's a Bull?
Ok....

Not jazzed about the design, but hoping its uniqueness means he's got interesting powers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:55 am

Loved this chapter, things unfold as I thought they would in the anime, with freeza appearing in the nick of time to save goku´s impending eliminatin., his knowing 17´s strategy makes sense, same as him not being happy about not being the one who wins the tournament, it makes sense too as he first attempted to eliminate Jiren form afar, I really hope he doesn´t get kill in the next movie ( I have not read spoilers) as he can always make a rather interesting and recurring character in the franchise.

Funny fact: goku hasn´t eliminated one single warrior in the tournament.

As for the next arc, I don´t mean to nick pick, but they will have to explain how they could imprison such a strong character in the past yet they didn´t use that strategy to incarcerate freeza or king cold at the time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:58 am

batistabus wrote:The design of the escaped prisoner has been revealed on the V-Jump website.
I really like the design. Very different from what's come befor. Cant help but think they have been watching Krampus though.


Goku vs Krampus... well it's a far cooler then Goku vs Superman, and this is from the guy who really like Jiren.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:00 am

Man, this chapter was excellent.

Jiren getting eliminated by surprise tactics instead of a super flashy brawl is just the perfect way to end this tournament that was built on people getting blindsided and surprised. I really liked that Jiren lacking teamwork is what did him in, since it was a concerted effort by Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and 17 working together that won the day. All the themes of established carried through to the end.

Mind you, this wasn't just everyone stringing their attacks together either. This was teamwork where each character contributed in ways that made sense of their characters. Vegeta came up with a plan with Goku and they both used up the last of their energy in a grand display. Frieza attacked from behind, since he's a sneaky, smarmy bastard. Goku did the self-sacrifice, which he has done all through his life. And 17 was there because his unique properties allowed the plan to go off without a hitch (him being undetectable due to being an android).

Also, Vermoud is such a good character in the manga instead of just an exposition outlet. Seeing him have a Champa moment when the fight was winding down was great. All his smugness disappeared as he reflected on why Jiren was losing, and then his talk with Jiren at the end was very coolly somber.

17 wishing all the universes back just to stick it to the man is reminiscent of his Android arc characterization, which is great. I don't know why the Super anime turned him into a stoic character when he was pretty much just Dante from Devil May Cry in the Android arc: just an eccentric fun-loving guy. The manga keeps some of the stoicism, but it doesn't abandon his earlier character traits either.

-------------------------------------------

Also, neat that context once again completely invalidates the people complaining. Goku was fighting someone else when this galactic patrol guy sneaked up behind him and took him out. Then, while Vegeta was still surprised by this he did the same.

Dunno why the assumption with these characters is that they're always on top of their game and 100% ready for everything 100% of the time.

----------------------------------------

In regards to the Viz chapter: was it translated by someone new? They used "Hercule" and wrote "Chi" instead of "Ki". These seem like a different translation ethos going on.

Of course, this could've been the way they've done it since chapter 1 and I just didn't notice until now.
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You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:44 am

batistabus wrote:The design of the escaped prisoner has been revealed on the V-Jump website.
How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:56 am

Noah wrote:
batistabus wrote:The design of the escaped prisoner has been revealed on the V-Jump website.
How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:59 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Doctor. wrote: They objectively are, but even if they weren't, it's more than tiresome at this point how "being caught off-guard" is used as an (increasingly lazy) excuse for whatever new plot point Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro want to cook up.
Yeah, I've gotta agree with this. We saw people "caught off guard" multiple times in the original manga, it didn't make them vulnerable to a ring laser or a taser.
I agree with this. It's something that clearly started with the new materials, and at this point it's more just irksome than everything. They've done it so many times that it's simultaneously tiresome but too expected to be irritated about.

Anyway, I liked this conclusion to the TOP: 17 stayed hidden for the entire fight which I'd hoped for (more emphasis on him surviving the tournament because he hid and avoided combat) and the panels of Jiren charging headfirst into Goku and Vegeta's attack are very nice. This chapter felt very dramatic and climactic, a good end to the arc.

I would have liked for the manga to cover the Broly movie to see what Toyotarou's take will be, but I guess giving the manga the chance to get ahead can have its own benefits as well. The prisoner's design looks really good and unique to me, I'm quite happy with it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:16 am

Freezerbaby wrote:Loved this chapter, things unfold as I thought they would in the anime, with freeza appearing in the nick of time to save goku´s impending eliminatin., his knowing 17´s strategy makes sense, same as him not being happy about not being the one who wins the tournament, it makes sense too as he first attempted to eliminate Jiren form afar, I really hope he doesn´t get kill in the next movie ( I have not read spoilers) as he can always make a rather interesting and recurring character in the franchise.

Funny fact: goku hasn´t eliminated one single warrior in the tournament.

As for the next arc, I don´t mean to nick pick, but they will have to explain how they could imprison such a strong character in the past yet they didn´t use that strategy to incarcerate freeza or king cold at the time.
My thoughts exactly. It will be hard to justify exactly why the grand kaioshin never used that tactic to put Buu away instead of fighting him head on. If this guy ranks in the area of Jiren and Broly, it might be because he’s a sorcerer or something. I can’t see him having absolute raw strength. I’ll give them props if they attempt to piece together that inconsistency.

Not sure if Frieza was even alive during that time, nor do we know what King Cold was doing during that time.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:21 am

BrolyKale wrote:Do not be fooled by appearances.
Well, to say at least he looks strong, so he's not the type of Monaka that Toriyama usually pretends to be really powerful, either way, not digging much the design of a sheep man.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:29 am

Toriyama isn’t one to do solo antagonists.

Its usually a duo of characters (Beerus and Whis, Vegeta and Nappa, Babidi and Buu, Shin and Kirito before we knew they were good) and other times has a villain or two that end up being a red herring for the actual villain of the arc. Also a lot of the time, the main villain has minions.

So either this GOAT ain’t alone and has allies or he’s just a setup for a bigger villain incoming.

But this is assuming this is a Toriyama made arc but from the looks of things, this arc is giving off “Toyo original arc” vibes.
BrolySSJL wrote:
Tai Lung wrote:well zamasu and black were created by toriyama although others said the opposite in this case may then reveal more of this new character in later interviews
A lot of Black arc were ideas of Toyo.
Where did it say that Toyo came up with a lot of the ideas for the Black arc? I mean, you could assume so based on how similar Black is to Xicor in ways but where does it actually say that many of the Black arc ideas were Toyo’s?
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:09 am

Really nice chapter.

What I liked:

There isn't a whole lot I can say about the manga's ending to the Tournament of Power that I haven't already said about the anime's final episode, since both had the same plot points, more or less, and both were good conclusions.

This chapter improved a few nagging issues in the anime though. 17's bomb removal is acknowledged, and his plan getting full clarification helps his victory feel way more earned here. 18 doesn't act absurdly out-of-character when 17 makes his wish; to the contrary, every character interaction in this chapter is fantastic and completely on-point from start to finish. Belmod's backstory and characterization are also fleshed out further, helping him feel like more than, as TKA put it, a walking exposition dump. I kinda wish it included something similar to the interaction between Jiren and Toppo in the final episode that provided a sense of closure to Jiren's character arc, but it still establishes all the necessary finishing touches on its own and ultimately does a better job tying up most loose ends.

The decision to have the new arc occur after the events of Broly was a wise choice. Barring a few minor inconsistencies, Toriyama's movies largely complement the manga in structure and style (which, again, is no coincidence since he's heavily involved in both) so I think it's better to consume both of these in tandem rather than have the manga be an alternate take. If the brand continues to have movies written entirely/mostly by Toriyama, the manga should continue to skip them, in all honesty. They work better coupled together than not.

As for the new arc itself, it seems promising so far. Jaco is one of my favorite characters to come from modern Toriyama - or Toriyama in general, really - and a story centered around the Galactic Patrol might potentially satisfy my craving for a real mystery drama in Super. The anesthesia gun is neat because, as its name implies, it can circumvent all battle powers as long as the target has a functioning nervous system and is susceptible to getting caught off-guard, but more importantly, it's a good way to explain how the Galactic Patrol apprehends powerful threats in their universe. I'm all for coherent, structured power scaling, but only insofar as power itself applies to a particular situation; it's nice to have things that don't subscribe to traditional dick-measuring contests every once in a while, so I look forward to seeing whether this new antagonist employs tricks that aren't entirely strength-related or may eschew that kind of stuff outright. Or perhaps, considering his obvious connection to the Grand Kaioshin, he's the previous God of Destruction. Lots of interesting paths Toyotaro/Toriyama can take here.

What I didn't like:

Goku mentioning that 17 is almost as strong as himself epitomizes the same issues I had with Episode 86. In a series largely about overcoming one's martial arts limitations through effort and fortitude, it's both incredibly anti-thematic and wildly implausible that 17 would go from below Cell's strength to breaching the level of the gods doing little more than fighting poachers on his island. There's a fun little gag chapter by Toyotaro that attempts to rectify and explain this somewhat, but I don't think it's enough to handwave someone supposedly approaching Blue levels of strength. Gohan, I can buy because he actually trained his ass off in preparation for the tournament, but this is seriously pushing my suspension of disbelief in a way that I don't think anyone can elucidate with "Well, he had high potential". I've gradually learned to accept it, but I hope to see a more adequate justification for something like this next time.

Thoughts on the Universe Survival arc:

For me, the manga's Tournament of Power succeeds where the anime's Tournament of Power fails in the same way that Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' succeeded where their retellings failed: they were simply tighter, much more focused stories. They stuck to significant beats and conflicts without dwelling on any one of them for too long. They honed in on the characters that mattered most, giving minor characters (or in this case, minor universes) background roles that supplemented those major character arcs instead of spending an excessive amount of time giving randoms too many undeserved "moments" and actively bogging the pacing down as a result. They were as anti-fluff and condensed as possible, effectively demonstrating why quality is indeed better than quantity.

This version of the Universe Survival arc did all of that while also remaining true to its premise and setting. It earnestly conveyed the atmosphere of an unforgiving, chaotic battle royale while presenting that backdrop as an obstacle for the story's protagonists. There's no set order or sense of escalation for the conflicts that arise; powerful characters were often picked off earlier than weaker ones simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, often due to an opposing gimmick they didn't know about. Participants were switching over to other fights because they were either forced to do so or were capitalizing on an opportunity. Surrounding rules and circumstances such as the 48-minute time limit and smaller arena encouraged them to acclimate promptly and think on their feet, lest they become tossed out of the ring by an opponent who could achieve the same thing in just a little less time.

The manga did everything it could to remind the reader of how terrifying and unrelenting this new kind of tournament actually was, forcing all of its competitors to adapt to an environment none of them were really prepared for through its exceedingly brisk pace. The anime faltered heavily with this concept by having fighters frequently stop in the middle of a battle royale to have lengthy conversations, or even worse, cutting away to the peanut gallery every few seconds to intrusively state the obvious or repeat a line of dialogue that was already said moments prior. Pacing is one of the most important aspects to drive home in an arc that emphasizes how urgent a quick, large survival tournament realistically should be, and only one of Super's mediums understood that.

It's not perfect, and far from my favorite arc, but I think it generally accomplishes what it set out to do. Compared to the anime, I find this tale much more serviceable and pretty firmly believe it'll hold up even better in a marathon sitting. I won't lie, though: Toriyama's going on the naughty list if I have to sit through another tournament at any point in the foreseeable future.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:12 am

Noah wrote:How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
...He's an escaped prisoner. What do you expect him to look like, all done up in cool, badass looking armor that looks entirely pristine? :crazy:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:15 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:Toriyama isn’t one to do solo antagonists.

Its usually a duo of characters (Beerus and Whis, Vegeta and Nappa, Babidi and Buu, Shin and Kirito before we knew they were good) and other times has a villain or two that end up being a red herring for the actual villain of the arc. Also a lot of the time, the main villain has minions.

So either this GOAT ain’t alone and has allies or he’s just a setup for a bigger villain incoming.

But this is assuming this is a Toriyama made arc but from the looks of things, this arc is giving off “Toyo original arc” vibes.
BrolySSJL wrote:
Tai Lung wrote:well zamasu and black were created by toriyama although others said the opposite in this case may then reveal more of this new character in later interviews
A lot of Black arc were ideas of Toyo.
Where did it say that Toyo came up with a lot of the ideas for the Black arc? I mean, you could assume so based on how similar Black is to Xicor in ways but where does it actually say that many of the Black arc ideas were Toyo’s?
He did with Cell though and Frieza has had a lot of minions throughout the series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:21 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:Where did it say that Toyo came up with a lot of the ideas for the Black arc? I mean, you could assume so based on how similar Black is to Xicor in ways but where does it actually say that many of the Black arc ideas were Toyo’s?
In interviews with Toriyama. Toyo's idea was to bring back Vegito and Vegeta learning SSG

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:27 am

Something that I don't think anyone has mentioned but:

I loved that Toyo didn't bother with the whole, "IF YOUR WISH WASN'T PURE HEARTED, WE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED EVERYONE ANYWAYS!!!" It just cheapened every thing that happened in the by making it so that, of course, only Goku's crew could win. That and while #17 not dying is still kind of dumb, it works better here.

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