"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:39 am

Noah wrote: How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
Uhm, not sure if you’re being facetious or not. If you aren’t... don’t you know anything about Toriyama’s style?

Toriyama doesn’t draw edgelord antagonists; this isn’t Dragonball Heroes. In fact, the closest he came to that was Dabura, who existed solely to lose to the much more goofy and innocuous Majin Buu. He was a joke.

Toriyama doesn’t draw roidhead antagonists; this isn’t Toei filler or pre-Battle of Gods movies. Toriyama only draws meathead villains as henchmen, and then they only exist to be humiliated when someone actually strong comes around (Nappa, Recoome, Spopovich).

Reminder that the original Berry’s was some edgy reptilian evil god, but then Toriyama redesigned him as a lazy purple cat.

This guy is a Toriyama character through and through—looking pretty unintimidating and unassuming.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:48 am

You guys can't tell me Toyotaro was even passionate about this arc. The whole manga tournament of power was a rushed mess. The anime's is by no means perfect, but it was definitely much more entertaining than whatever Toyotaro gave us. All the arguments about how coherent it is in terms of power scale compared to the anime should be thrown out the window since those two chapters with Kale that just made the power scale even more confusing.

But despite that, it feels like he may be getting back on track due to how well he's setting up the next Arc. It's getting me excited, but he's definitely lost my trust after this shitshow of an arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:56 am

Noah wrote: How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
You realize that currently, the most powerful being in all 12 universe is Zeno right? Toriyama is known for breaking people's assumptions and expectations. People who seem strong are weak while people who seem weak are strong.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:07 pm

Great Chapter! Certainly better than whats been given in the last 4 months or so. Was this arc rushed? Sure it was and part of me feels like Toyotaro wasn't all that interested in this concept. Despite that though, this felt conclusive and I felt the tension despite knowing Jiren was going to lose. One definite pro is that Goku and Vegeta were actually out of energy when they were supposed to be. In The anime they hoped in and out of Blue so much despite deliberately saying that they wanted to preserve it for when the big dogs were all thats left in the tournament.

I even prefer this climax over the anime's, the anime's climax while fun to watch, it felt waaay to fan servicey, because again while Goku is supposedly spent on energy he still finds a way to nudge out super saiyan just for "COOOOOL THROW BACK!!!!!"

As for the new stuff, color me intrigued! So going by Jaco's comments Goku and Vegeta arent necessary for this particular case yet Merus feels as though the more the merrier so why not, which is cool. Part of me feels like things will go smoothly until either Goku or Vegeta get reckless and end up making things worse, which is typical but execution is everything so it it does goes that route we'll just have to see what happens.

Still hard to say if Boo was already asleep or if they paralyzed him too. Vegeta literally mentions exactly what I was saying that despite all they've been through since meeting Beerus, Boo is still powerful as all hell so taking him down is no easy feat for someone who isnt on their level. This little bit is fun so far.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:13 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Great Chapter! Certainly better than whats been given in the last 4 months or so. Was this arc rushed? Sure it was and part of me feels like Toyotaro wasn't all that interested in this concept. Despite that though, this felt conclusive and I felt the tension despite knowing Jiren was going to lose. One definite pro is that Goku and Vegeta were actually out of energy when they were supposed to be. In The anime they hoped in and out of Blue so much despite deliberately saying that they wanted to preserve it for when the big dogs were all thats left in the tournament.

I even prefer this climax over the anime's, the anime's climax while fun to watch, it felt waaay to fan servicey, because again while Goku is supposedly spent on energy he still finds a way to nudge out super saiyan just for "COOOOOL THROW BACK!!!!!"

As for the new stuff, color me intrigued! So going by Jaco's comments Goku and Vegeta arent necessary for this particular case yet Merus feels as though the more the merrier so why not, which is cool. Part of me feels like things will go smoothly until either Goku or Vegeta get reckless and end up making things worse, which is typical but execution is everything so it it does goes that route we'll just have to see what happens.

Still hard to say if Boo was already asleep or if they paralyzed him too. Vegeta literally mentions exactly what I was saying that despite all they've been through since meeting Beerus, Boo is still powerful as all hell so taking him down is no easy feat for someone who isnt on their level. This little bit is fun so far.
Eh, don’t see why the “supposedly” for that part, the guy was literally flickering in and out of it.

Now that the chapter is out, I’m just glad that the manga version of this arc is over. This new arc (manga-exclusive or Not) seems interesting so far, we’ll see how it further develops
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:15 pm

Don't really think much of the bull/goat character design. What will really define that character will be his personality and dynamic with the cast.

As for Chapter 42:

- Love the Kamehameha/Gamma Burst Flash combo attack. I hope I see that in a videogame down the road.

- Disappointed that Goku and Vegeta teaming up had no actual payoff and Vegeta was eliminated in such an anticlimactic manner.

- I'm majorly torn on Freeza and #17 plan to eliminate Jiren. The idea sounds fantastic on paper, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about for more than 30 seconds. Their plan pretty much relied on Goku attaining again and mastering Ultra Instinct, something that in itself, at least within the manga, was initially a huge fluke. Not to mention, if #17 didn't really blow himself up, how the hell did he still manage to destroy half the arena? And at one point did #17 and Freeza actually come up with that to eliminate Jiren. It's almost as #17 and Freeza saw into and future and knew ahead of time that somebody more power than Jiren would appear and kick and ass. Which is something that I doubt anyone would have predicted since Jiren was stonewalling everything Goku was throwing at him and Ultra Instinct burned out before it could do anything to Jiren and provide the inclination that the form would do some serious damage to him.

- I liked the closure and comfort that Jiren got in the end for his teammates and Vermoud. It wasn't as wonderfully subtle as the anime, but I appreciate the direct and grounded approach. Toyotaro certainly treated Jiren as quite a "human" character and I liked that a lot.

- Goku saying that he wanted fight Jiren one-on-one was so fucking dumb. Like, that was what Goku was doing for 99% of the Tournament Of Power.

- While #17's "defiance" of having the Zeno(s) get what they want with wiping out the other 7 universes is a nice character moment, it's quite jarring that the Zeno(s) would be fine with that wish being made. I mean, main goal of the Zeno(s) was to get wipe out the lower ranked universes because they thought there were too many to keep track of, why did they leave the universes alone after 17 wished them back? Even if we interpret the wish made by #17 as being "fuck you" to Zeno(s) it doesn't comes across as anything other than meaningless when the Zeno(s) could just wipe out all the lesser universes again.

This is why I liked the angle Tournament Of Power being a secret test of character in the anime. Not only did is give the Tournament Of Power some semblance of general thematic significance with the general nature of mortals being put into question, it broadened the characterization of Zeno by showing that despite his capricious nature toward life and death, he still holds some responsibility over the multiverse he governs, and seeks for the personal hidden depths in mortals when presented with a position of ultimate power (any one wish with the Super Dragon Balls).

I guess what I trying to say is that the anime provided some much needed benevolence to Zeno's characterization. In manga, with how the Tournament of Power concluded, he just comes across as a psychotic asshole, who throws around his weight, knowing that nobody dares to defy him, and is willing to sacrifice seven universe for his own amusement. It's not even a case of his being upset and flying off the handle like previous instances and being thrown into scenario where an entire timeline is under threat. He's just doing this for shits and giggles.

- I laughed when Goku stated that #17 was as strong as Goku and Vegeta despite the fact he didn't do much of anything.

- Bulma bitching about Vegeta giving up one of her cruise ships as gift to #17 was unnecessary. That guy saved the universe, ans she has more money than anyone on the planet. It should be a big to her at all.

- Overall, Toyotaro's take on the Universal Survival arc started off very strong, but tailspinned into mediocrity outright awfulness with the occasional bright spot here and there. It focused so much on getting from point A to point B, that it didn't take to time needed at period to make a large majority of the battles worthwhile or carry any significance for the characters. The anime may have been a bit long in the tooth at times, but it tries it's damndest to have the defeats and victories in the Tournament Of Power mean more than were initially presented to be. I do really like Toyotaro's take on Jiren's characterization, as well as Vermoud's more broader personality and personal ties with Jiren's backstory and the brisker build up the Tournament Of Power itself. But that's only unfortunately all Toyotaro's take has over Toei's take.

- I'm absolutely loving the set-up for the newest arc. Especially with Majin Boo being at the center of it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:16 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:Where did it say that Toyo came up with a lot of the ideas for the Black arc? I mean, you could assume so based on how similar Black is to Xicor in ways but where does it actually say that many of the Black arc ideas were Toyo’s?
In interviews with Toriyama. Toyo's idea was to bring back Vegito and Vegeta learning SSG
Oh. I thought he was talking about ideas Toyo had that influenced Toriyama’s creation of the arc.
Toxin45 wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:Toriyama isn’t one to do solo antagonists.

Its usually a duo of characters (Beerus and Whis, Vegeta and Nappa, Babidi and Buu, Shin and Kirito before we knew they were good) and other times has a villain or two that end up being a red herring for the actual villain of the arc. Also a lot of the time, the main villain has minions.

So either this GOAT ain’t alone and has allies or he’s just a setup for a bigger villain incoming.

But this is assuming this is a Toriyama made arc but from the looks of things, this arc is giving off “Toyo original arc” vibes.
BrolySSJL wrote: A lot of Black arc were ideas of Toyo.
Where did it say that Toyo came up with a lot of the ideas for the Black arc? I mean, you could assume so based on how similar Black is to Xicor in ways but where does it actually say that many of the Black arc ideas were Toyo’s?
He did with Cell though and Frieza has had a lot of minions throughout the series.
I explained Cell and Freeza’s case.

Freeza had minions so he wasn’t really the sole villain. And Cell was part of the bait and switch from the Androids seemingly being the main villains to Cell popping in out of nowhere as the surprise true villain. So he kinda wasn’t alone either as the androids we’re the villains before his showed up.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:30 pm

I have a feeling kranpus (Goat man) will be much like Boo, either have different forms or be a wizard like Babidi. Some kind of catalyst for the real threat.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:48 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote:Eh, don’t see why the “supposedly” for that part, the guy was literally flickering in and out of it.
Probably because every other episode for a large chunk of the tournament he kept saying he was running low, then he recovers and runs out again. Multiple times. In what’s supposed to be a 40 minute tournament. It’s pretty ridiculous.

Here, Goku and Vegeta were truly spent, and then eliminated in pretty short order after.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:58 pm

TKA wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:Eh, don’t see why the “supposedly” for that part, the guy was literally flickering in and out of it.
Probably because every other episode for a large chunk of the tournament he kept saying he was running low, then he recovers and runs out again. Multiple times. In what’s supposed to be a 40 minute tournament. It’s pretty ridiculous.

Here, Goku and Vegeta were truly spent, and then eliminated in pretty short order after.
That, has nothing to do with what I, or what the part I bolded, was referring to. If the part I bolded was talking about the use of blue, then it’d be true, but it’s talking about the very end of the tournament, and in that scene, he was clearly so spent on energy that he wasn’t even turning ssj fully. He was flickering in and out of it. That’s why I wonder where the “supposedly” part is coming from
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Don't really think much of the bull/goat character design. What will really define that character will be his personality and dynamic with the cast.

As for Chapter 42:

- Love the Kamehameha/Gamma Burst Flash combo attack. I hope I see that in a videogame down the road.

- Disappointed that Goku and Vegeta teaming up had no actual payoff and Vegeta was eliminated in such an anticlimactic manner.

- I'm majorly torn on Freeza and #17 plan to eliminate Jiren. The idea sounds fantastic on paper, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about for more than 30 seconds. Their plan pretty much relied on Goku attaining again and mastering Ultra Instinct, something that in itself, at least within the manga, was initially a huge fluke. Not to mention, if #17 didn't really blow himself up, how the hell did he still manage to destroy half the arena? And at one point did #17 and Freeza actually come up with that to eliminate Jiren. It's almost as #17 and Freeza saw into and future and knew ahead of time that somebody more power than Jiren would appear and kick and ass. Which is something that I doubt anyone would have predicted since Jiren was stonewalling everything Goku was throwing at him and Ultra Instinct burned out before it could do anything to Jiren and provide the inclination that the form would do some serious damage to him.

- I liked the closure and comfort that Jiren got in the end for his teammates and Vermoud. It wasn't as wonderfully subtle as the anime, but I appreciate the direct and grounded approach. Toyotaro certainly treated Jiren as quite a "human" character and I liked that a lot.

- Goku saying that he wanted fight Jiren one-on-one was so fucking dumb. Like, that was what Goku was doing for 99% of the Tournament Of Power.

- While #17's "defiance" of having the Zeno(s) get what they want with wiping out the other 7 universes is a nice character moment, it's quite jarring that the Zeno(s) would be fine with that wish being made. I mean, main goal of the Zeno(s) was to get wipe out the lower ranked universes because they thought there were too many to keep track of, why did they leave the universes alone after 17 wished them back? Even if we interpret the wish made by #17 as being "fuck you" to Zeno(s) it doesn't comes across as anything other than meaningless when the Zeno(s) could just wipe out all the lesser universes again.

This is why I liked the angle Tournament Of Power being a secret test of character in the anime. Not only did is give the Tournament Of Power some semblance of general thematic significance with the general nature of mortals being put into question, it broadened the characterization of Zeno by showing that despite his capricious nature toward life and death, he still holds some responsibility over the multiverse he governs, and seeks for the personal hidden depths in mortals when presented with a position of ultimate power (any one wish with the Super Dragon Balls).

I guess what I trying to say is that the anime provided some much needed benevolence to Zeno's characterization. In manga, with how the Tournament of Power concluded, he just comes across as a psychotic asshole, who throws around his weight, knowing that nobody dares to defy him, and is willing to sacrifice seven universe for his own amusement. It's not even a case of his being upset and flying off the handle like previous instances and being thrown into scenario where an entire timeline is under threat. He's just doing this for shits and giggles.

- I laughed when Goku stated that #17 was as strong as Goku and Vegeta despite the fact he didn't do much of anything.

- Bulma bitching about Vegeta giving up one of her cruise ships as gift to #17 was unnecessary. That guy saved the universe, ans she has more money than anyone on the planet. It should be a big to her at all.

- Overall, Toyotaro's take on the Universal Survival arc started off very strong, but tailspinned into mediocrity outright awfulness with the occasional bright spot here and there. It focused so much on getting from point A to point B, that it didn't take to time needed at period to make a large majority of the battles worthwhile or carry any significance for the characters. The anime may have been a bit long in the tooth at times, but it tries it's damndest to have the defeats and victories in the Tournament Of Power mean more than were initially presented to be. I do really like Toyotaro's take on Jiren's characterization, as well as Vermoud's more broader personality and personal ties with Jiren's backstory and the brisker build up the Tournament Of Power itself. But that's only unfortunately all Toyotaro's take has over Toei's take.

- I'm absolutely loving the set-up for the newest arc. Especially with Majin Boo being at the center of it.
Wrong, zeno is doing the tourney do to universes development stagnation. Not for "Shits and giggles". Read chapter 28.
And I found the anime ToP to be nothing more then superfical fan service in which logic and consitency was thrown out the window to play to the feelings and emotions of those who aren't familiar with dragon ball. It's as if the show was catered to children...Oh wait....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:12 pm

I don't know if it was mentioned here but I saw a theory that the Goat was the previous God of Destruction and that he's linked with the Grand Supreme Kai.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Bullza wrote:I don't know if it was mentioned here but I saw a theory that the Goat was the previous God of Destruction and that he's linked with the Grand Supreme Kai.
This would be awesome.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:25 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:Wrong, zeno is doing the tourney do to universes development stagnation. Not for "Shits and giggles". Read chapter 28.
And I found the anime ToP to be nothing more then superfical fan service in which logic and consitency was thrown out the window to play to the feelings and emotions of those who aren't familiar with dragon ball. It's as if the show was catered to children...Oh wait....
Yes, I read Chapter 28. I distinctly remember that in that chapter Zeno(s) where playing chess and then arbitrarily decide to get rid of some of the universes because... reasons. After that decision was made, Zeno(s) then asked Grand Priest what the mortal levels were of the 12 universes, and after Grand Priest gave him the update on where the universes rank from one another and how they are developing, it was then decided how many universes would be wiped out.

And please don't act as if Dragon Ball is now suddenly aimed at children. You're more than 30 years late to that party.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:01 pm

The 2 page spread:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Oracle » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:12 pm

Bullza wrote:I don't know if it was mentioned here but I saw a theory that the Goat was the previous God of Destruction and that he's linked with the Grand Supreme Kai.
I hope they finally clarify the purpose of the Grand Supreme Kai. Maybe the goat is in a higher level of a GoD? Grand or Supreme God of Destruction. At least we will know when his name is revealed, and find the correct alcoholic drink pun.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:14 pm

While Freeza got a cool moment when eliminating Jiren, the plan was weird since it relied on someone, somehow managing to weaken Jiren that much, perhaps him and 17 just trusted Goku that much lol.

Although, it's also weird 17 and Freeza came up with that off screen... It'd be okay if they were shown to be battling together and chatting, but that wasn't really the case.

Also nice that 18 was aware that 17 didn't self destruct, so her not reacting to it was fine.

It's a bit odd that Zenos didn't just erase the universes again, but I guess it's to honor the wish of the winner, since they made it clear that super dragon balls would grant any wish, and the fact that 17 asked Grand Priest first, then the super dragon balls, means making the wish was okay, otherwise they could've just said "No, we're not granting this one", plus, altruism seems to be really important in the "level" of universes, since Universe 7 ranked up just because of 17's wish.

One thing I liked about Vermoud in the manga is that he feels more like a character, I'm watching ToP so far and all he does is Jiren wank, though maybe that'll change in other episodes.

17 being said to be about as strong as Goku/Vegeta is lame, just saying someone is strong without showing it is a bad writing decision, hopefuly there'll be a story arc later on showing it though.

That guy managing to knock down Goku and Vegeta is dumb, Goku was caught off guard sure, but Vegeta saw it and shouldn't be surprised for that long, makes both, specialy Vegeta, look like a bunch of amateurs, but perhaps the guy's just that fast, hopefuly next chapter clears it up, but it'd be better if this chapter cleared it up since they could just mention in some line how fast he is...

Oh well, it was an alright chapter, but unfortunately, well, seems like just the end mattered in the battle against Jiren? UI itself didn't seem like it damaged him much, while Goku and Vegeta are fighting him together in 42, they talk about how his power just never ends, so it feels like UI was useless to weaknen him, but again, it did piss him off, so I guess that's enough, since Jiren losing his composure left him more open, but for a new power up to do just that...
Lord Beerus wrote:- Love the Kamehameha/Gamma Burst Flash combo attack. I hope I see that in a videogame down the road.
I think that's somewhat unlikely, games seems to be taking solely from the anime.

Although honestly, could be fun if they took from both for other characters, like Ribrianne for example, could be fun by taking her weakness from the manga, which her power increases or decreases depending on how beautiful she feels, or Zamasu with those Kaioshin aprentice's techniques.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:39 pm

Noah wrote:
batistabus wrote:The design of the escaped prisoner has been revealed on the V-Jump website.
How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
Truthfully, Toyotaro is not lost. Toriyama himself said he makes the strong villains look weak at times.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by KayDash » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:59 pm

Noah wrote:
batistabus wrote:The design of the escaped prisoner has been revealed on the V-Jump website.
How are we supposed to take this seriously? This guy looks like a freaking HOBO! Now they're going to pretend that a homeless is somehow strong as Jiren and Broly? Toyotaro is LOST!
And we all know that hobos in anime/manga = weaklings:
Oh wait...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:09 pm

I like the new dude.

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