"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shineman » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:40 am

Wow, nice to see many new faces popping into the thread to give out their daily thoughts and preparation for the new arc; makes discussion far more interesting that way instead of the usual this thread typically devolves in.
Exline wrote:You guys can't tell me Toyotaro was even passionate about this arc. The whole manga tournament of power was a rushed mess. The anime's is by no means perfect, but it was definitely much more entertaining than whatever Toyotaro gave us. All the arguments about how coherent it is in terms of power scale compared to the anime should be thrown out the window since those two chapters with Kale that just made the power scale even more confusing.

But despite that, it feels like he may be getting back on track due to how well he's setting up the next Arc. It's getting me excited, but he's definitely lost my trust after this shitshow of an arc.
Perhaps the story was simply not basic enough for some readers to understand! :P

Joking aside, I feel the same way as you regarding the presentation of the next arc. Perhaps tournaments are not Toyotaro’s strongest suits, so this arc, which features fewer characters, will fall well within his comfort zone. Then again, considering the structure of the Zamasu Arc, I am not optimistic for it.
Zephyr wrote:There's such a thing as dramatic timing.

This is some "they ruined the consistency of my choreography-derived feats!" level nitpicking, and I am surprised it took someone this long to resort to it.
Perhaps my basic understanding of reading is failing a bit here, but how his thoughts a nitpick? I would understand if the user is calling to something trivial that does not affect the story, but here, it seems to be a genuine concern; it’s strange that Jiren didn’t immediately dispatch Goku right after Vegeta whom stated that, despite being weakened (last chapter) and/or expended his power, he still had more (this chapter). I can see why he would view such as “plot armor”.

I do not want to speak for him; considering he is very much capable of defending his stance on the matter, but this nitpick comparison seems premature.

===================

So anyways, in preparation of this chapter, I re-read the entirely of the Tournament of Power (manga), and it was not offensive, but it was not anything noteworthy. I do not feel the chaotic nature after the beginning; the characters were bland, interactions were either too on the nose, nonexistence or drag off way longer than it should (Vermoud’s thoughts on Jiren’s master was tiring).

The fight choreography—whilst some cool moments (Vegeta and Goku’s desperate attack against Jiren is one of them) is present—I can say anything about it… just your average fight, typically from Toyotaro.

Personally do not care about the gun thing, even if it seems a bit redundant about the “well, he was caught off guard” or the whole “h-he’s FAST!” kind of cliché. It seems that Toyotaro skipped the Broly part; which I assumed since another mangaka is doing a promotional manga on it (I think), he has no reason to adapt it now.

It’ll be interesting to see the evolution of Toyotaro; I think handling this large cast of characters was a bit much for him; as I said earlier, with an limited amount, I think, Toyotaro might have a better handle on it, but at the same time, it makes me scratch my chin on that thought.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:46 am

Zephyr wrote:There's such a thing as dramatic timing.

This is some "they ruined the consistency of my choreography-derived feats!" level nitpicking, and I am surprised it took someone this long to resort to it.
Marlowe89 wrote:Except for the part where Vegeta specifically mentioned that Jiren was weakened.

I'd advise quitting while you're ahead because this is a whole other level of straw-grasping.
Either address the issue or don't derail the thread with these childish remarks.

Geran had more power left, to the point that he stopped being tired and wasn't fazed by their attacks. So yes, he had enough power to just kick Goku off the edge after Vegeta, and "dramatic timing" or not, it does take someone out of the moment. The sequence with Golden Freeza gets a pass because that's supposed to be happening very quick but the redundant panels do slow it down.
Shineman wrote:Perhaps my basic understanding of reading is failing a bit here, but how his thoughts a nitpick? I would understand if the user is calling to something trivial that does not affect the story, but here, it seems to be a genuine concern; it’s strange that Jiren didn’t immediately dispatch Goku right after Vegeta whom stated that, despite being weakened (last chapter) and/or expended his power, he still had more (this chapter). I can see why he would view such as “plot armor".
That's exactly it, thanks for paying attention to the chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jaden » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:35 am

So has Grand Supreme Kai been inside Buu this whole time? What was it , over 5 million years now? You'd think he'd been assimilated by now :lol:
If that is the case, then what about South Supreme Kai? Also dormant inside Buu?

Doesn't it kind of contradict Z? 'cause when Goku and Vegeta were inside Buu they didn't see Grand there, only the boys, Piccolo and Buu's good self. I guess Buu could have kept Grand (and South) in a different place inside his body... :eh:

I'm certain I'm not the only one who's wondering what'll happen to Buu once Grand and South are out of his body. Will he transform into a good Kid Buu? :think: We recently got a good-Super-Buu-like character in the form of "Fit" Buu so who knows.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:37 am

alakazam^ wrote:
Geran had more power left, to the point that he stopped being tired and wasn't fazed by their attacks.
Wasn't fazed by their attacks? Is that why he's covered in bruises and his clothes are torn to shreds? In Dragonball, and even in this tournament, when someone isn't fazed by an attack they don't take any damage. Jiren took quite a bit of it and is feeling the effects, but he's a stoic character.

By the end after he eliminates Vegeta he goes to eliminate Goku too, but Goku attacks him and Jiren immediately subdues him. On the very next page, Frieza throws a deathball at him. You're severely overstating how long this is taking.

Also, huge difference between Goku and Vegeta here. He eliminated Vegeta right after catching them by surprise. Vegeta says "Dammit," and gets blasted off an instant. Goku then rushes Jiren. Unlike Vegeta, who was a sitting duck, Goku actually fought.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:35 am

Shineman wrote:Wow, nice to see many new faces popping into the thread to give out their daily thoughts and preparation for the new arc; makes discussion far more interesting that way instead of the usual this thread typically devolves in.
Exline wrote:You guys can't tell me Toyotaro was even passionate about this arc. The whole manga tournament of power was a rushed mess. The anime's is by no means perfect, but it was definitely much more entertaining than whatever Toyotaro gave us. All the arguments about how coherent it is in terms of power scale compared to the anime should be thrown out the window since those two chapters with Kale that just made the power scale even more confusing.

But despite that, it feels like he may be getting back on track due to how well he's setting up the next Arc. It's getting me excited, but he's definitely lost my trust after this shitshow of an arc.
Perhaps the story was simply not basic enough for some readers to understand! :P

Joking aside, I feel the same way as you regarding the presentation of the next arc. Perhaps tournaments are not Toyotaro’s strongest suits, so this arc, which features fewer characters, will fall well within his comfort zone. Then again, considering the structure of the Zamasu Arc, I am not optimistic for it.

===================

So anyways, in preparation of this chapter, I re-read the entirely of the Tournament of Power (manga), and it was not offensive, but it was not anything noteworthy. I do not feel the chaotic nature after the beginning; the characters were bland, interactions were either too on the nose, nonexistence or drag off way longer than it should (Vermoud’s thoughts on Jiren’s master was tiring).

The fight choreography—whilst some cool moments (Vegeta and Goku’s desperate attack against Jiren is one of them) is present—I can say anything about it… just your average fight, typically from Toyotaro.

Personally do not care about the gun thing, even if it seems a bit redundant about the “well, he was caught off guard” or the whole “h-he’s FAST!” kind of cliché. It seems that Toyotaro skipped the Broly part; which I assumed since another mangaka is doing a promotional manga on it (I think), he has no reason to adapt it now.

It’ll be interesting to see the evolution of Toyotaro; I think handling this large cast of characters was a bit much for him; as I said earlier, with an limited amount, I think, Toyotaro might have a better handle on it, but at the same time, it makes me scratch my chin on that thought.
Wait is that really what happened? I thought the Majin Buu ordeal was set up for the Broly Arc? Wow. It's probably for the best another mangaka handle it too.

And Idk, I feel Toyotaro wasn't even trying. It was much clearer in those two chapters centered around Kale that he just wanted to get rid of the fighters as fast possible. Any capable writer is able to make a plausible story out of this arc, Toyotaro chose not to. We've seen what he can do in the previous arcs that were much better.

I also agree with your criticisms on the entirety of the arc. Toyotaro reuses a lot of panels and martial art choreography that it gets ridiculously repetitive. Toyotaro chose not to give it his all this arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:14 pm

alakazam^ wrote: Either address the issue or don't derail the thread with these childish remarks.
First of all, you've been consistently derailing this thread with childish remarks and "gotchas" every time you post, and you've also been asked by three or four different users to stop. Would you like me to quote those posts?

Secondly, I did address the issue. So did the other person you replied to.
alakazam^ wrote:Geran had more power left, to the point that he stopped being tired and wasn't fazed by their attacks.
That makes no sense; Jiren isn't suddenly going to "stop being tired" after they explicitly pointed out that he was exhausted of his power, and he was absolutely fazed by their attacks because we saw more battle damage on the character every time he withstood a blast.

He caught them by surprise and then eliminated Vegeta, managed to block Goku's attacks and was about to push him off the ring until he noticed Freeza, got held in place by Goku, used the rest of his strength to deflect an attack from Freeza, then was literally gasping for breath because he was too exhausted to do anything by that point (least of all "elbowing" Goku off the stage as you claim).

The sequence of events played out in a perfectly plausible manner that allowed for the dramatic timing of Freeza's final attack. If you're "surprised" that nobody else here insisted otherwise before you posted, that's probably because people paid attention.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:28 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
That still begs the question of why they didn’t just erase the universes again after 17 made his wish. If their whole goal was to get rid of the lesser universes because they thought there were too many to keep track of, why did they leave the universes alone after 17 wished them back? Even if we interpret 17’s wish as an act of defiance against these childish assholes, it comes across as hollow when you consider that there’s nothing stopping them from just wiping everything out again.
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If you noticed in the story, it was the Grand Priest who suggested the idea of erasing them. The Zenos just went 'Yeah that sounds like a good idea let's go with it!' And he was the one who told Shin that U7 got bumped up too. Not to perpetuate memes but the Grand Priest has a lot more influence over the universes than we are led to believe. So ultimately while 17 made the wish in defiance of the Zenos' grand order, it was the Grand Priest with whom he was at odds. And the Grand Priest was impressed with the kind of wish he made. So at the very least he's on their good side now if anything.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:36 pm

I have more confidence that this arc will be more original & interesting than the Broly film. The only thing about the film that seems spectacular at this point is the animation & choreography.

DB as of lately has felt like an entire nostalgia grab ever since RoF. Tournaments, recycling of old concepts, rehash of old villains. Nothing that fresh. We can't fault Shueisha for tending to the DB franchise like a money tree but it's clear Toriyama really has no sense of where his beloved franchise is going anymore and how he can reconcile it to his conclusion.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:32 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:More of Boo is always a good thing. Seems like something far more interesting than the upcoming movie.
Can definitely disagree about that. Buu is an extremely boring character and generally the less of him the better IMO. In this case, he functions as a vessel for Dai Kaioshin so it still works as being really interesting though.
Why do you feel he's boring? He has a quirky personality and had a complete arc.

Maybe he's boring in Super, since they resort to the same one gag and limit his personality to two traits.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:59 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:More of Boo is always a good thing. Seems like something far more interesting than the upcoming movie.
Can definitely disagree about that. Buu is an extremely boring character and generally the less of him the better IMO. In this case, he functions as a vessel for Dai Kaioshin so it still works as being really interesting though.
Why do you feel he's boring? He has a quirky personality and had a complete arc.

Maybe he's boring in Super, since they resort to the same one gag and limit his personality to two traits.
For the most part he isn't even capable of speech and
for the most part is just generic evil during his arc with the brief exception of his time with Satan. No tie in to the characters, no history with them, no interesting dialogue. Nothing. (I'm including All forms of Buu when I say he's boring)

Also, Super is in no capacity limiting his personality. It's the same character.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:For the most part he isn't even capable of speech and
for the most part is just generic evil during his arc with the brief exception of his time with Satan. No tie in to the characters, no history with them, no interesting dialogue. Nothing. (I'm including All forms of Buu when I say he's boring)

Also, Super is in no capacity limiting his personality. It's the same character.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that. Boo has some of the best character moments in all of Dragon Ball. You have him rebelling against Babidi, restoring sight to a poor blind boy, reviving the dog, befriending Mr. Satan, and deciding to fight against pure Boo at the end. Combat-wise, his wacky abilities are ripe for fun situations. He's childish and unpredictable, which I think plays to some of the best of Dragon Ball's strengths. He's a mysterious and ancient being (that according to recent interviews, has existed since time immemorial) that could fit nicely into (or be expanded upon for) lore-building.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:45 pm

alakazam^ wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned the obvious plot armor in the chapter: So, Geran eliminates Vegeeta and takes his time with Goku for some reason.
Yes it is plot armor I.m.o , but let’s analyze it . If you were jiren who do you kick out first in that blink of surprise attack : the weaker or the stronger ... vegeta or the one who is being challenging you all the time ...
for some reason it seems that vegeta is in a better shape at that particular moment though....
Reading it my feelings were that’s “plot armor “ for sure , it’s no a new invention that is always going to Gokû,s side , not a biggie
PFM18 wrote: (I'm including All forms of Buu when I say he's boring)

Also, Super is in no capacity limiting his personality. It's the same character.
Buu can be the same character on super , but he did nothing but sleep .
Buu all forms did lots of things , genocides , internal conflicts and lots of things like they answered you in previous posts , totally non bored my friend
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:49 pm

Chapter was ok. I don’t have strong feelings towards it.

As for the whole ToP arc in the manga, it’s WAY too obvious that this was a massive rush job from Toyotaro to finish the arc before the Broly movie. Expected more out of him since I feel he writes a lot better than the cast of people they had writing the Super anime, but to me, many parts of the manga’s ToP arc felt just as bad as the overall anime’s writing in different ways. Mostly due to this whole arc being extremely rushed.

I expect him to take his time and do better for this upcoming arc. Seems quite intriguing to me conceptually.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:38 pm

Ho about instead of tearing the kais out of Buu, he learns to manifest them as part of his persona? so south or grand kai can take over and shape his body accordingly to their personality and abilities?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:33 pm

mahakaishin1991 wrote:Ho about instead of tearing the kais out of Buu, he learns to manifest them as part of his persona? so south or grand kai can take over and shape his body accordingly to their personality and abilities?
Great lords of lords slumbers within Majin Boo , MErus said , so they need to awake him ... when the first form of buu we knew had the conflict with the evil part , the evil part was expelled and the good one kept his form , that somehow could say that the great lord of lords influence is huge , as we can see in his body shape too .
All this make me think that no one is gonna be expelled and what you said is a real possibility with or without shaping bodies.
Very intriguing to know what’s gonna happen about it
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:57 pm

Thing is that Fat Buu is in the original DBZ manga in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Hence, if Dai Kaioshin is extracted, then Fat Buu will not be him anymore. That would actually create a contradiction. I find it hard to believe they need the Dai Kaioshin's help. The Elder Kaioshin is the 15th generation Kaioshin; he should be older than Dai Kaioshin. They should just ask him for help.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:28 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Thing is that Fat Buu is in the original DBZ manga in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Hence, if Dai Kaioshin is extracted, then Fat Buu will not be him anymore. That would actually create a contradiction. I find it hard to believe they need the Dai Kaioshin's help. The Elder Kaioshin is the 15th generation Kaioshin; he should be older than Dai Kaioshin. They should just ask him for help.
It's possible with the "Evil Buu" gone and reincarnated, it would simply be a formality and Buu remains himself. After all, what else would happen? Buu no longer has anything to devolve back into.

I'm more curious to see how the Dai Kaioshin plays into the heirarchy for GoD. It's already been established that GoD and Supreme Kais are linked, and each universe has been shown to only have one Kai (not counting Zamasu as a Kai in training). I had figured that piece of lore had been dropped and retconned. But this seemingly is not the case

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:24 am

Does anyone else feel like Toriyama changed his mind halfway through the ToP? A big deal was made of the fact that Jiren was the one mortal who even the Gods of Destruction were powerless against, and how Goku needed to master the technique that was beyond the Destroyers to have a chance against him. When they finally clashed against each other, Beerus admitted in a bittersweet tone that Goku was incredible, seemingly accepting that he had been surpassed, with the anime version making this particularly clear when it had Goku and Jiren punching each other set to music where the singer screams about how even the gods are in awe. Then it has them stand up respectfully, acknowledging the fight.

But as of the latest arc, Goku claims he hasn't pulled off Ultra Instinct even once since Jiren knocked him out of it. He doesn't use it in the Broly movie either. And in both the Broly arc and the La Cabra arc, Beerus is still acting like the same smug prick and Goku is still chasing his tail. What was even the point of the ToP and Ultra Instinct if everything was going to be reset?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:03 am

MKCSTEALTH wrote: It's possible with the "Evil Buu" gone and reincarnated, it would simply be a formality and Buu remains himself. After all, what else would happen? Buu no longer has anything to devolve back into.

I'm more curious to see how the Dai Kaioshin plays into the heirarchy for GoD. It's already been established that GoD and Supreme Kais are linked, and each universe has been shown to only have one Kai (not counting Zamasu as a Kai in training). I had figured that piece of lore had been dropped and retconned. But this seemingly is not the case
It's probably the Kaioshin that's active. When the Old Kaioshin was released from the Z-sword, Shin was still assumed to be linked to Beerus. However, at one point, Beerus did seal the Old Kaioshin 75 million years ago in the first place, so he would've been linked to him at that time. Hence, even if the Dai Kaioshin were to come out now, I'm sure that Shin would still be life linked to Beerus.

Also, Buu still has something to devolve back into. If there is a Dai Kaioshin sleeping inside Fat Buu, there must certainly be the South Kaioshin in there as well. Taking them both out should change Buu's appearance even if he's not "evil" anymore.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:17 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
It's probably the Kaioshin that's active. When the Old Kaioshin was released from the Z-sword, Shin was still assumed to be linked to Beerus. However, at one point, Beerus did seal the Old Kaioshin 75 million years ago in the first place, so he would've been linked to him at that time. Hence, even if the Dai Kaioshin were to come out now, I'm sure that Shin would still be life linked to Beerus.

Also, Buu still has something to devolve back into. If there is a Dai Kaioshin sleeping inside Fat Buu, there must certainly be the South Kaioshin in there as well. Taking them both out should change Buu's appearance even if he's not "evil" anymore.
Its always possible. I see it as:

Kid Buu created/discovered
Kills North and West Kais
Absorbs South Kai, becomes Buff Buu
Absorbs Dai Kaioshin, becomes Good Buu
Good Buu is sealed away

Present Day
Good Buu released
Resurrects Hercule, Evil Buu released
Evil Buu absorbs Good Buu, becomes Super Buu
Super Buu absorbs Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan to become Buuhan
Vegeta rips out Good Buu, returns back to Buff Buu very briefly before becoming Kid Buu

My theory is that the expulsion of Evil Buu was the essence of Kid Buu. Hence why Good Buu still exists. The South Kai was part of the Kid Buu entity, while the Dai Kaioshin remained in Good Buu

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