"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lukmendes]

So I was looking through Toyo's DB AF Manga (ah memories) and has anyone ever asked Toyotaro on Twitter about his Toyble days. Funny how "seven Saiyan's lights", a evil Goku like for, and Broly all appear within that old manga.

Yeah, needing super saiyans to do something about Goku (Bring him back in AF and give him SSG in Super) is an odd coincidence, although about Black, while Black and Xicor are different kinds of characters, the way Toyotaro wrote Black is pretty much like a combination of Zamasu and Xicor (Racism against mortals who whines when losing and being a simple brute kinda taking orders from the much weaker Kaioshin), and then in both we have Vegeta doing transformation switches to overwhelm Xicor/Black, although against Xicor it happened in the unreleased volume 5, so it's kinda more fair... But yeah, looking back at it, it's funny how in some ways it was prophetic, wonder if that means we'll get Pikkon having some friendship with Broly, SS Pan and SS Bra

[GTx10]

So I was looking through Toyo's DB AF Manga (ah memories) and has anyone ever asked Toyotaro on Twitter about his Toyble days. Funny how "seven Saiyan's lights", a evil Goku like for, and Broly all appear within that old manga.

Yeah, needing super saiyans to do something about Goku (Bring him back in AF and give him SSG in Super) is an odd coincidence, although about Black, while Black and Xicor are different kinds of characters, the way Toyotaro wrote Black is pretty much like a combination of Zamasu and Xicor (Racism against mortals who whines when losing and being a simple brute kinda taking orders from the much weaker Kaioshin), and then in both we have Vegeta doing transformation switches to overwhelm Xicor/Black, although against Xicor it happened in the unreleased volume 5, so it's kinda more fair... But yeah, looking back at it, it's funny how in some ways it was prophetic, wonder if that means we'll get Pikkon having some friendship with Broly, SS Pan and SS Bra

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)
The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

[shadowfox87]

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)
The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

DBM by far had the largest influence. Multiple universal tournament. Multiple Namekians fusing into one. Too many things.

[Lord Beerus]

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)
The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

DBM by far had the largest influence. Multiple universal tournament. Multiple Namekians fusing into one. Too many things.

I think we're giving Dragon Ball Multiverse a bit too much credit. I doubt Toriyama or Toei know that comic exists.

[Lukmendes]

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)

Yeah at some point he put AF on hiatus after he started to work on DBH's Victory Mission manga, but then he cancelled it altogether, but still made that epilogue.

Here's the unreleased volume 5: https://www.facebook.com/pg/Dragon-Ball ... 9624601421

The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

I remember hearing that Toriyama based SSG and/or Blue in some fan transformations he saw or heard about, it's only something I heard about though, never confirmed it, but since Toriyama hand picked Toyotaro to draw the Super manga, then maybe he at some point saw weird ideas of transformations while looking at fan mangas and made SSG/Blue.

Another possible coincidence is Towa and Mira's relationship in Xenoverse being similar to that Kaioshin and Xicor's, y'know, the much weaker female who created the warrior who has undying loyalty to her... Makes you wonder is the writters behind Xenoverse read AF lol.

Either way, not sure if Toyotaro ever talked about AF again, it'd be interesting to see what he thinks of it all of those years later.

DBM by far had the largest influence. Multiple universal tournament. Multiple Namekians fusing into one. Too many things.

Maybe, just maybe the multiversal tournament could've had some influence, but that's something not difficult to imagine, but the multiple Namekians fusing isn't just a DBM idea at all, any random fan could've imagined that since Piccolo fused with two of them, so how many Namekians could be used for fusing is potentialy limitless.

[SaiyanGod117]

Thanks for that. So it's not really a contradiction. "Child" can mean many things. Raditz can refer to his kid baby brother. I do all the time.

Except for the fact he was a baby at the time, then reverted back to a kid for Minus.

Um, no Bardock is definitely canon given that he was shown in the official DB manga in Chapter 307 in two panels as a flashback.

Two panels that were associated with the manga and that by the default makes the special canon. There's really no need for explanation, when it's clearly shown.

Yes, that scene was ripped from the Bardock special. There are other ideas and scenes taken from movies and put into the DBS Broly movie like Gogeta. Does that mean that DBZ Movie 12 is canon? No.

False equivalence, airplanes are made of composite materials, composite materials are light, therefore, aircraft are light. Under normal circumstances Bardock would be rendered non canon, but Toriyama's adoration for it made him want to make it canon.

Those scenes fit with DB minus so it's not a contradiction. The other things that happened with regards to how Bardock got there however were open to interpretation until the DBS Broly movie.

Those scenes were never in Minus, not to mention the fact that Bardock has totally different armor as well as the red headband he's wearing is a cloth that was soaked from his teammates blood.

You can believe whatever you'd like but the truth right now is that DB Minus is canon not the Bardock Special. Bardock was always canon. TV Specials on the other hand, you can make them canon if you would like to.

The truth is the Bardock Special was canon, that has now been retconned in sake for Minus.

The same goes for every scene in which Goku was shown as a baby in the anime - not canon. Goku was never shown as a baby in the manga.

He was shown as a baby in the special, which was canon and mentioned in the manga twice as a baby.

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)
The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

DBM by far had the largest influence. Multiple universal tournament. Multiple Namekians fusing into one. Too many things.

The concept of multiverse is something old, Marvel and DC Comics being a better exemple, DBM created nothing new.

[Melkaniator]

Not at all. Both the manga and anime thoroughly contradict EoZ.

Obviously.

That's why I posted "not as much" which means the manga does it as well, but "not as much" as the anime.

The anime had a scene of Vegeta and Goku talking about Uub already, such a contradiction is not in the manga for example.

I'm going to bet that the new arc in the manga won't be adapted and the anime probably be won't be back. They may keep Super going as both as a manga and movies.

I would bet against that.

But that would help to avoid extending arcs like ToP, so, I like the idea.

-Chapter 42-

Great chapter.

Could've been better if they weren't pushing the new arc in here.

Anyway, personally, this is the only manga arc I kinda found worst than anime, which is a shame, Zamasu arc was way better.

Between the anime and manga a decent storyline is hiding, mostly in manga's story and anime's fights.

This Tournament is supposed to be about the survival, so what's the point of they get healed automatically when they could still get erased?!

It takes away the issue of "if the fighter dies outside from an attack made in the fighting stage does that count as breaking the rules as it wasn't in the stage when it happened, it was eliminated already?"

As to make rules more clear.

The fact they need Dai Kaioshin in particular seems really forced.

I have no problems with the idea personally.

I like the design of the new villain, at least. It's original and better than 90% of the designs from current Toriyama.

I agree.

And about time, DBS is filled with lazy designs, Jiren was the crown of this issue, I worried it could only get worse from there.

[PFM18]

The anime had a scene of Vegeta and Goku talking about Uub already, such a contradiction is not in the manga for example.

False. The manga also features a scene where they are talking about Oob already, and even though apparently you could construe it to make sense, if anything the manga contradicts things more because it calls Boo the "most formidable foe Goku has ever faced" when Boo's power is a complete joke at this point.

The manga simply has more contradictions in general, but that's a story for another day.

[Marlowe89]

The manga simply has more contradictions in general, but that's a story for another day.

This hasn't been, isn't, and very likely never will be true.

It would take a ridiculously long essay of a post to list every contradiction, inconsistency and downright illogical plot point exclusive to the anime, but if you'd like, I can start. I can even make it relevant to this particular topic by pointing out why these generally aren't an issue in the manga.

[prince212]

The anime had a scene of Vegeta and Goku talking about Uub already, such a contradiction is not in the manga for example.

False. The manga also features a scene where they are talking about Oob already, and even though apparently you could construe it to make sense, if anything the manga contradicts things more because it calls Boo the "most formidable foe Goku has ever faced" when Boo's power is a complete joke at this point.

Really ? Show me where vegeta knows about oob, I missed it.
The formidable thing .. is right .. by the meaning . You can also tell Raditz was formidable .. goku gave his life to defeat those 2. I don’t find that a joke . Re-check the meaning of formidable and think that Dende doesn’t know about things that happen out of the earth .

[PFM18]

The manga simply has more contradictions in general, but that's a story for another day.

This hasn't been, isn't, and very likely never will be true.

It would take a ridiculously long essay of a post to list every contradiction, inconsistency and downright illogical plot point exclusive to the anime, but if you'd like, I can start. I can even make it relevant to this particular topic by pointing out why these generally aren't an issue in the manga.

Go ahead. Pease, be my guest

But not here. Put it in the anime vs manga thread

And no, artificially tying it back into the manga doesn't make it relevant to this thread. A "here are the anime contradictions and oh by the way they aren't in the manga" comment isn't appropriate for this thread.

[GTx10]

I mispelled "foe" as "for." Damn it! Anyway unreleased part 5? I thought the Toyble Manga ended with Roshi telling Goku and Vegeta Jr. the Xicor story then dying. (A unique ending)

Yeah at some point he put AF on hiatus after he started to work on DBH's Victory Mission manga, but then he cancelled it altogether, but still made that epilogue.

Here's the unreleased volume 5: https://www.facebook.com/pg/Dragon-Ball ... 9624601421

The coincidences between the stories are rather scary in highlight, maybe these these type of fan made stories were prevalent amongst the Japanese fandom and influenced Toriyama? But has any fans brought AF to Toyotaro's attention? I would love to see him re-draw Xicor what with his improved drawing skills.

I remember hearing that Toriyama based SSG and/or Blue in some fan transformations he saw or heard about, it's only something I heard about though, never confirmed it, but since Toriyama hand picked Toyotaro to draw the Super manga, then maybe he at some point saw weird ideas of transformations while looking at fan mangas and made SSG/Blue.

Another possible coincidence is Towa and Mira's relationship in Xenoverse being similar to that Kaioshin and Xicor's, y'know, the much weaker female who created the warrior who has undying loyalty to her... Makes you wonder is the writters behind Xenoverse read AF lol.

Either way, not sure if Toyotaro ever talked about AF again, it'd be interesting to see what he thinks of it all of those years later.

DBM by far had the largest influence. Multiple universal tournament. Multiple Namekians fusing into one. Too many things.

Maybe, just maybe the multiversal tournament could've had some influence, but that's something not difficult to imagine, but the multiple Namekians fusing isn't just a DBM idea at all, any random fan could've imagined that since Piccolo fused with two of them, so how many Namekians could be used for fusing is potentialy limitless.

I never knew about that unreleased 5th part. Was it written before the Roshi dying ending or after? Although thinking back, I recall a few folks (myself included) who thought GT Goku fusing with Shenron was a huge thing. Maybe we fans just tend to think a-like?
But you can seem many of Toyotaro's modern habits in that unreleased part 5: Cluster panel layout, copious amounts of exposition, that cool side ways fighting angle he uses and that "silm but sexy" DB art style he has. Also Toyotaro clearly remembers that Supreme Kai's has mind abilities much like Zamasu in the Manga. Toyotaro is indeed a hardcore fan and he drew a entertaining fan Manga.

[Marlowe89]

Put it in the anime vs manga thread

No, it's definitely going in here. Most of these problems are given very specific elaboration in the manga, so it's relevant to the topic.

Stay tuned.

[PFM18]

Put it in the anime vs manga thread

No, it's definitely going in here. Most of these problems are given very specific elaboration in the manga, so it's relevant to the topic.

Stay tuned.

I'm not going to derail this thread because theres literally a thread dedicated for these types of discussions.

[Rakurai]

Spoiler:

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1049467745631264768

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1049468670412382208

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1049469538629115904

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1049470082689118208

Been asked about this a few times so: during the first DB hunt, Roshi explains how Grandpa Gohan told him he found a tailed "child" (こども), but when Raditz shows up Roshi says Gohan found a tailed "baby" (赤ん坊). Raditz likewise says Goku was sent to Earth as a 赤ん坊/baby.

While I suppose you could maybe kinda sorta get away with referring to a 3-year old as an 赤ん坊/baby, it's no more typical than using the English word "baby" for a child that big. And indeed, throughout Jaco/DB Minus Goku is always referred to as a子供/child, never 赤ん坊/baby.

The Viz translation messes this up slightly with DB/Z by having Raditz say Saiyans like Goku are sent to weaker worlds as "little children" (rather than 赤ん坊/baby as in Japanese), but the other instances as consistent with the Japanese wording.

And Viz's translation of Jaco/DB Minus consistently renders all instances of 子供 as "child" or "kid", as is right and proper.

I can acknowledge that Goku was a kid in DB, but Toriyama obviously retconned into baby to coincide with his Saiyan backstory, then back again to kid for Minus because he created an all new backstory.

If you're saying the Bardock Special is no longer canon, I agree, but if you're saying it was never canon then your wrong.

Bardock was always canon. Bardock Special on the other hand, is a TV Special made by Toei. If you count Bardock Special as canon, then you might as well count every filler episode in the anime as canon. In any case, we are talking about the present not the past. DB Minus is canon now and that's a fact.

It doesn't matter if it was made by Toei, if Toriyama ripped scenes straight out of the special and incorporated it into manga while also tying Goku's backstory into it. While also giving the special, special, not scene, but special as in whole 48 minute runtime continuous love, then its obvious he wanted the whole thing canon, Bardock even has the same bloodstained headband in the flashbacks. You can't just say Bardock was canon and the special was not, if you're going that route then Bardock was never canon until Minus.

In any case, we are talking about the present not the past. DB Minus is canon now and that's a fact

That doesn't excuse you for spreading misinformation, unfortunately, I see people try to use Minus as a opportunity to say the Bardock Special was never canon, when that's a blatant false equivalence.

This guy gets it.

TV Bardock special was the essential Bardock story before Minus. Toriyama literally adapted his backstory into his manga, with Frieza recognizing him down to his damaged battle armor and wound in detail. The only exception was the smug that Bardock gave to Frieza when he came out... but that is inconsequential compared to the identical parallel we got. Canon, official continuity, whatever fans want to call it, it was the story that Toriyama chose for Bardock at the time and what you had to watch in order to learn more about his history.

Minus retconned both the manga and the TV special. Bardock got his battle armor changed, Goku became a toddler instead of a baby, Gine was never mentioned not even by Raditz, whom he received information from that Goku was supposed to be on Earth. And as it turns out,

Spoiler:

Bardock and Frieza never even face off in the Broly film, so Frieza couldn't have remembered Bardock with the bandanna as he did in the manga, with the Frieza soldiers behind him and everything.

[superfan2024]

And as it turns out,

Spoiler:

Bardock and Frieza never even face off in the Broly film, so Frieza couldn't have remembered Bardock with the bandanna as he did in the manga, with the Frieza soldiers behind him and everything.

Spoiler:

Nah; Bardock literally does the exact same thing he does in the TV special (except fighting the soldiers).

[PFM18]

And as it turns out,

Spoiler:

Bardock and Frieza never even face off in the Broly film, so Frieza couldn't have remembered Bardock with the bandanna as he did in the manga, with the Frieza soldiers behind him and everything.

Spoiler:

Nah; Bardock literally does the exact same thing he does in the TV special (except fighting the soldiers).

Spoiler:

It's the same thing except he struggles for a little bit with the blast instead of being instantly engulfed in it

.

[batistabus]

And as it turns out,

Spoiler:

Bardock and Frieza never even face off in the Broly film, so Frieza couldn't have remembered Bardock with the bandanna as he did in the manga, with the Frieza soldiers behind him and everything.

Spoiler:

Nah; Bardock literally does the exact same thing he does in the TV special (except fighting the soldiers).

Spoiler:

It's the same thing except he struggles for a little bit with the blast instead of being instantly engulfed in it

.

Spoiler:

From what I understand, this is true. However, he does not have a bandana, obviously isn't wearing the same armor, and I'm not even sure that Freeza sees Bardock at all...in case that matters to anyone.

[Lukmendes]

I never knew about that unreleased 5th part. Was it written before the Roshi dying ending or after?

I'm only guessing, but I think the order of events was: Start to make Volume 5 > Get the job on Victory Mission > Cancel AF and make that epilogue.

Although thinking back, I recall a few folks (myself included) who thought GT Goku fusing with Shenron was a huge thing. Maybe we fans just tend to think a-like?

Well yeah, something like that is gonna be seen as a big deal no matter what lol.

But you can seem many of Toyotaro's modern habits in that unreleased part 5: Cluster panel layout, copious amounts of exposition, that cool side ways fighting angle he uses and that "silm but sexy" DB art style he has.

At the very least, the exposition was really needed here, since he was making Vegeta switch between 4 transformations with 3 of them being in more evolved forms with those 3 each having a maxed out stat... Yeah, that needed some long explanations lol.

Also Toyotaro clearly remembers that Supreme Kai's has mind abilities much like Zamasu in the Manga. Toyotaro is indeed a hardcore fan and he drew a entertaining fan Manga.

Thinking of it, it's surprising that Zamasu didn't use mind reading, he could use that and his paralysis to stay a step or two ahead of Goku for a while.