"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Go ahead. Pease, be my guest

Alright, time to clarify. This post is long enough just going over the Universe Survival arc, so I'll keep it mostly related to that part of the series and save the Future Trunks arc for another time... although there'll be a couple of things from that arc in this post. I'll start with story-related incongruities and then move on to strength-specific ones.

Spoiler:

During the Tournament of Power, the anime and manga both establish that the fighters should conserve their stamina as much as possible until their numbers dwindle, which is agreeably a valid tactic for a 48-minute battle royale. Halfway into the competition, the anime thoroughly contradicts this by having Goku and Vegeta deplete themselves on multiple occasions only to then regain it back within just a few minutes in-universe. That makes no sense whatsoever and also renders the entire strategy (and plot point) moot. The manga specifically addresses this by having all remaining fighters grow fatigued by its climax, forcing them to handle the remainder of the tournament by using what little strength they have left. When Goku and Vegeta get tired, they stay tired and can't transform into Super Saiyans willy nilly anymore. The only exception is Ultra Instinct, which isn't acquired by powering up.

In Episode 119, Universes 3 and 11 literally stand around, arms crossed, taking a number and waiting their turn to fight Universe 7 while they deal with Universe 4. That's completely fucking bizarre and totally antithetical to any sense of logic or realism in a battle royale. Conversely, in the manga, everyone - including the sandbagging Jiren - is constantly fighting and moving to stay on the arena. Nobody's a sitting duck in a setting designed to weed out the sitting ducks. The manga also doesn't have Jiren sitting around and meditating for several episodes.

Unlike in the anime, where 17 survives his self-destruct bomb purely by chance, in the manga it's acknowledged that he can't actually set it off in the first place because the bomb was already removed at the end of the Cell arc. It's framed as a fake-out strategy, as it should be.

Jiren becoming completely suspended in time and then overpowering time itself (lol?) to overcome Hit's Time Cage is utterly nonsensical. Toyotaro made this more plausible in the manga by simply putting Jiren in a time lagged state instead, powering through an ability he should be strong/fast enough to counteract naturally.

Future Zamasu can literally keep up with SSB Goku one moment and then get his ass kicked by SS2 Trunks the next with zero explanation, which is outrageously stupid and remains the subject of countless scaling debates to this day. On the other hand, the manga specifies exactly what ballpark he's in, so you don't have people constantly playing the guessing game over whether he's supposed to be god level or beneath it whenever they discuss that version. No ambiguity, no problem.

Kale can tank a Kamehameha from Blue and ragdoll SSB Goku in one episode and then lose to an exhausted SSG Goku in a later episode. Again, no explanation given, but people try to rationalize an obvious inconsistency by arguing that Goku was suppressed in Episode 100 based on a vague colloquialism that can either translate to "a little" or "a lot" depending on context. Others try to rationalize it by arguing that Goku simply got stronger. As usual, nobody can agree on which one of their post-hoc fallacies is better. On the flipside, the manga goes out of its way to clarify that Kale's transformation fluctuates in power and even explains exactly what she's doing, why she's succeeding and then why she's failing scene by scene. No ambiguity, no problem.

Ribrianne can fight on par with SS Vegeta and then be at a disadvantage against base Goku in another episode. Then she transforms, causes Goku to run away, transforms again, then gets defeated by Android 18. The second part only makes sense if you subscribe to the retcon interpretation, but why did her base strength suddenly change from around Super Saiyan level to base level? Can we expect an explanation from Toei's writers? Of course not. "It's up the fans!", except when the fans can't explain this without rationalizing it via "h-holding back" headcanon. Meanwhile, the manga bothers to illustrate that her power indeed changes based on her confidence. No ambiguity... you guessed it, no problem.

But wait, there's more! Let's take a look at what the manga smartly avoided:

Gohan can force SSB Goku into Kaioken, but can't do shit against Toppo (who repeatedly struggled against SSB Vegeta) even when teaming up with 17, another supposedly Blue tier fighter.

In Episode 117, Viara is easily defeated by 17 and there's even a remark about how much of a joke he is in comparison. In Episode 120, Viara encounters 17 again... except this time 17 needs 18's help, both commenting on how supposedly tough he is.

Oh, speaking of 17: Lapis became so strong since we last saw him that he's capable of forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue, except when he's apparently not that strong because he couldn't even overcome the Pretty Black Hole that Goku partially withstood in his fucking base form and then effortlessly overcame with Blue. Yikes.

Oh, speaking of Goku: Genki Dama in the tournament is somehow vastly stronger than the one in the Buu arc, despite containing considerably less genki. Doesn't begin to compute, and that's not even going into the massive characterization problems associated with that episode.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm positive I missed a few because I've discussed all of this stuff at length. This shit is absolutely bonkers. It's everywhere in the anime and you don't even have to look, while the manga at least tries to explain itself most of the time.

We can obviously attribute this to Toei's disjointed staff. Yoshitaka Toshio, a writer for the show, once provided two contradictory rankings on his Twitter account when asked how strong some of the fighters in the ToP were supposed to be (Gohan = 17 vs. Gohan > 17) and even said that he bases all of this on his personal opinion. Again, this is coming from one of the anime's script writers. That's not a good look for its internal consistency.

[superfan2024]

Go ahead. Pease, be my guest

Alright, time to clarify. This post is long enough just going over the Universe Survival arc, so I'll keep it mostly related to that part of the series and save the Future Trunks arc for another time... although there'll be a couple of things from that arc in this post. I'll start with story-related incongruities and then move on to strength-specific ones.

Spoiler:

During the Tournament of Power, the anime and manga both establish that the fighters should conserve their stamina as much as possible until their numbers dwindle, which is agreeably a valid tactic for a 48-minute battle royale. Halfway into the competition, the anime thoroughly contradicts this by having Goku and Vegeta deplete themselves on multiple occasions only to then regain it back within just a few minutes in-universe. That makes no sense whatsoever and also renders the entire strategy (and plot point) moot. The manga specifically addresses this by having all remaining fighters grow fatigued by its climax, forcing them to handle the remainder of the tournament by using what little strength they have left. When Goku and Vegeta get tired, they stay tired and can't transform into Super Saiyans willy nilly anymore. The only exception is Ultra Instinct, which isn't acquired by powering up.

In Episode 119, Universes 3 and 11 literally stand around, arms crossed, taking a number and waiting their turn to fight Universe 7 while they deal with Universe 4. That's completely fucking bizarre and totally antithetical to any sense of logic or realism in a battle royale. Conversely, in the manga, everyone - including the sandbagging Jiren - is constantly fighting and moving to stay on the arena. Nobody's a sitting duck in a setting designed to weed out the sitting ducks. The manga also doesn't have Jiren sitting around and meditating for several episodes.

Unlike in the anime, where 17 survives his self-destruct bomb purely by chance, in the manga it's acknowledged that he can't actually set it off in the first place because the bomb was already removed at the end of the Cell arc. It's framed as a fake-out strategy, as it should be.

Jiren becoming completely suspended in time and then overpowering time itself (lol?) to overcome Hit's Time Cage is utterly nonsensical. Toyotaro made this more plausible in the manga by simply putting Jiren in a time lagged state instead, powering through an ability he should be strong/fast enough to counteract naturally.

Future Zamasu can literally keep up with SSB Goku one moment and then get his ass kicked by SS2 Trunks the next with zero explanation, which is outrageously stupid and remains the subject of countless scaling debates to this day. On the other hand, the manga specifies exactly what ballpark he's in, so you don't have people constantly playing the guessing game over whether he's supposed to be god level or beneath it whenever they discuss that version. No ambiguity, no problem.

Kale can tank a Kamehameha from Blue and ragdoll SSB Goku in one episode and then lose to an exhausted SSG Goku in a later episode. Again, no explanation given, but people try to rationalize an obvious inconsistency by arguing that Goku was suppressed in Episode 100 based on a vague colloquialism that can either translate to "a little" or "a lot" depending on context. Others try to rationalize it by arguing that Goku simply got stronger. As usual, nobody can agree on which one of their post-hoc fallacies is better. On the flipside, the manga goes out of its way to clarify that Kale's transformation fluctuates in power and even explains exactly what she's doing, why she's succeeding and then why she's failing scene by scene. No ambiguity, no problem.

Ribrianne can fight on par with SS Vegeta and then be at a disadvantage against base Goku in another episode. Then she transforms, causes Goku to run away, transforms again, then gets defeated by Android 18. The second part only makes sense if you subscribe to the retcon interpretation, but why did her base strength suddenly change from around Super Saiyan level to base level? Can we expect an explanation from Toei's writers? Of course not. "It's up the fans!", except when the fans can't explain this without rationalizing it via "h-holding back" headcanon. Meanwhile, the manga bothers to illustrate that her power indeed changes based on her confidence. No ambiguity... you guessed it, no problem.

But wait, there's more! Let's take a look at what the manga smartly avoided:

Gohan can force SSB Goku into Kaioken, but can't do shit against Toppo (who repeatedly struggled against SSB Vegeta) even when teaming up with 17, another supposedly Blue tier fighter.

In Episode 117, Viara is easily defeated by 17 and there's even a remark about how much of a joke he is in comparison. In Episode 120, Viara encounters 17 again... except this time 17 needs 18's help, both commenting on how supposedly tough he is.

Oh, speaking of 17: Lapis became so strong since we last saw him that he's capable of forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue, except when he's apparently not that strong because he couldn't even overcome the Pretty Black Hole that Goku partially withstood in his fucking base form and then effortlessly overcame with Blue. Yikes.

Oh, speaking of Goku: Genki Dama in the tournament is somehow vastly stronger than the one in the Buu arc, despite containing considerably less genki. Doesn't begin to compute, and that's not even going into the massive characterization problems associated with that episode.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm positive I missed a few because I've discussed all of this stuff at length. This shit is absolutely bonkers. It's everywhere in the anime and you don't even have to look, while the manga at least tries to explain itself most of the time.

We can obviously attribute this to Toei's disjointed staff. Yoshitaka Toshio, a writer for the show, once provided two contradictory rankings on his Twitter account when asked how strong some of the fighters in the ToP were supposed to be (Gohan = 17 vs. Gohan > 17) and even said that he bases all of this on his personal opinion. Again, this is coming from one of the anime's script writers. That's not a good look for its internal consistency.

THIS! THIS IS IT!

[Cursemark505]

TV Bardock special was the essential Bardock story before Minus. Toriyama literally adapted his backstory into his manga, with Frieza recognizing him down to his damaged battle armor and wound in detail. The only exception was the smug that Bardock gave to Frieza when he came out... but that is inconsequential compared to the identical parallel we got. Canon, official continuity, whatever fans want to call it, it was the story that Toriyama chose for Bardock at the time and what you had to watch in order to learn more about his history.

Sorry, but this is a bunch of BS. Toriyama and the anime staff barely had anything to do with each other. You can't just arbitrarily decide that something entirely foreign & made by someone else is canon to his universe. The anime orignal stories that were made by Toei are no more canon than fan creations like Dragon ball AF or multiverse.

The only thing that's canon is that someone that resembled Goku stood against Freeza.

The "retcon" in regards to what Freeza envisioned could by excused by the fact that what goes on inside someone's head doesn't always correlate with reality. What we saw was Freeza's imagination. We didn't actually see what transpired.

Goku became a toddler instead of a baby

ba·by - A very small child
-comparatively small or immature of its kind.

in·fant - a very young child

Baby has multiple definitions it isn't just restricted to newborns. Besides, Gohan couldn't have even known what Goku's true age was and the whole story came from Roshi and he isn't a reliable resource as to what Goku was or wasn't.

[Rakurai]

Spoiler:

Nah; Bardock literally does the exact same thing he does in the TV special (except fighting the soldiers).

Spoiler:

It's the same thing except he struggles for a little bit with the blast instead of being instantly engulfed in it

.

Spoiler:

From what I understand, this is true. However, he does not have a bandana, obviously isn't wearing the same armor, and I'm not even sure that Freeza sees Bardock at all...in case that matters to anyone.

Spoiler:

This is also my understanding of it. Bardock and Frieza do not see each other at all.

Sorry, but this is a bunch of BS. Toriyama and the anime staff barely had anything to do with each other. You can't just arbitrarily decide that something entirely foreign & made by someone else is canon to his universe. The anime orignal stories that were made by Toei are no more canon than fan creations like Dragon ball AF or multiverse.

The only thing that's canon is that someone that resembled Goku stood against Freeza.

The "retcon" in regards to what Freeza envisioned could by excused by the fact that what goes on inside someone's head doesn't always correlate with reality. What we saw was Freeza's imagination. We didn't actually see what transpired.

Goku became a toddler instead of a baby

ba·by - A very small child
-comparatively small or immature of its kind.

in·fant - a very young child

Baby has multiple definitions it isn't just restricted to newborns. Besides, Gohan couldn't have even known what Goku's true age was and the whole story came from Roshi and he isn't a reliable resource as to what Goku was or wasn't.

I didn't decide shit. It's as clear as day in the DB manga.

The only BS thing is when fans try to deny Toriyama didn't think of the Bardock special when he wrote Bardock into the manga. It was a TV special cameo, as the panels clearly suggest. Like what is even the fucking point of incorporating Bardock who is the most irrelevant person to the Namek Saga then. To allude to Minus more than 20 years later?

Bardock special was the essential story for Bardock until Minus. The Frieza flashback, and its contradiction to Minus, tell it all.

[TKA]

I didn't decide shit. It's as clear as day in the DB manga.

Let me just break this down.

It's in the spirit of a retcon, since he was clearly thinking of the Bardock special, but it's not technically a retcon since the Bardock special never happened in the manga.

[batistabus]

From Saikyo Jump, we have what appears to be Merus' character design. Looks like Toyotaro's work to me.

Spoiler:

[IM21]

Broly mini manga was made by Toyo it seems. It comes in Saikyo jump.

[GodVegetto91]

From Saikyo Jump, we have what appears to be Merus' character design. Looks like Toyotaro's work to me.

Spoiler:

Wow! He looks really good. I absolutely adore the COLORS. And i already loved his manga design!

[shadowfox87]

Alright, time to clarify. This post is long enough just going over the Universe Survival arc, so I'll keep it mostly related to that part of the series and save the Future Trunks arc for another time... although there'll be a couple of things from that arc in this post. I'll start with story-related incongruities and then move on to strength-specific ones.

Spoiler:

During the Tournament of Power, the anime and manga both establish that the fighters should conserve their stamina as much as possible until their numbers dwindle, which is agreeably a valid tactic for a 48-minute battle royale. Halfway into the competition, the anime thoroughly contradicts this by having Goku and Vegeta deplete themselves on multiple occasions only to then regain it back within just a few minutes in-universe. That makes no sense whatsoever and also renders the entire strategy (and plot point) moot. The manga specifically addresses this by having all remaining fighters grow fatigued by its climax, forcing them to handle the remainder of the tournament by using what little strength they have left. When Goku and Vegeta get tired, they stay tired and can't transform into Super Saiyans willy nilly anymore. The only exception is Ultra Instinct, which isn't acquired by powering up.

In Episode 119, Universes 3 and 11 literally stand around, arms crossed, taking a number and waiting their turn to fight Universe 7 while they deal with Universe 4. That's completely fucking bizarre and totally antithetical to any sense of logic or realism in a battle royale. Conversely, in the manga, everyone - including the sandbagging Jiren - is constantly fighting and moving to stay on the arena. Nobody's a sitting duck in a setting designed to weed out the sitting ducks. The manga also doesn't have Jiren sitting around and meditating for several episodes.

Unlike in the anime, where 17 survives his self-destruct bomb purely by chance, in the manga it's acknowledged that he can't actually set it off in the first place because the bomb was already removed at the end of the Cell arc. It's framed as a fake-out strategy, as it should be.

Jiren becoming completely suspended in time and then overpowering time itself (lol?) to overcome Hit's Time Cage is utterly nonsensical. Toyotaro made this more plausible in the manga by simply putting Jiren in a time lagged state instead, powering through an ability he should be strong/fast enough to counteract naturally.

Future Zamasu can literally keep up with SSB Goku one moment and then get his ass kicked by SS2 Trunks the next with zero explanation, which is outrageously stupid and remains the subject of countless scaling debates to this day. On the other hand, the manga specifies exactly what ballpark he's in, so you don't have people constantly playing the guessing game over whether he's supposed to be god level or beneath it whenever they discuss that version. No ambiguity, no problem.

Kale can tank a Kamehameha from Blue and ragdoll SSB Goku in one episode and then lose to an exhausted SSG Goku in a later episode. Again, no explanation given, but people try to rationalize an obvious inconsistency by arguing that Goku was suppressed in Episode 100 based on a vague colloquialism that can either translate to "a little" or "a lot" depending on context. Others try to rationalize it by arguing that Goku simply got stronger. As usual, nobody can agree on which one of their post-hoc fallacies is better. On the flipside, the manga goes out of its way to clarify that Kale's transformation fluctuates in power and even explains exactly what she's doing, why she's succeeding and then why she's failing scene by scene. No ambiguity, no problem.

Ribrianne can fight on par with SS Vegeta and then be at a disadvantage against base Goku in another episode. Then she transforms, causes Goku to run away, transforms again, then gets defeated by Android 18. The second part only makes sense if you subscribe to the retcon interpretation, but why did her base strength suddenly change from around Super Saiyan level to base level? Can we expect an explanation from Toei's writers? Of course not. "It's up the fans!", except when the fans can't explain this without rationalizing it via "h-holding back" headcanon. Meanwhile, the manga bothers to illustrate that her power indeed changes based on her confidence. No ambiguity... you guessed it, no problem.

But wait, there's more! Let's take a look at what the manga smartly avoided:

Gohan can force SSB Goku into Kaioken, but can't do shit against Toppo (who repeatedly struggled against SSB Vegeta) even when teaming up with 17, another supposedly Blue tier fighter.

In Episode 117, Viara is easily defeated by 17 and there's even a remark about how much of a joke he is in comparison. In Episode 120, Viara encounters 17 again... except this time 17 needs 18's help, both commenting on how supposedly tough he is.

Oh, speaking of 17: Lapis became so strong since we last saw him that he's capable of forcing Goku into Super Saiyan Blue, except when he's apparently not that strong because he couldn't even overcome the Pretty Black Hole that Goku partially withstood in his fucking base form and then effortlessly overcame with Blue. Yikes.

Oh, speaking of Goku: Genki Dama in the tournament is somehow vastly stronger than the one in the Buu arc, despite containing considerably less genki. Doesn't begin to compute, and that's not even going into the massive characterization problems associated with that episode.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm positive I missed a few because I've discussed all of this stuff at length. This shit is absolutely bonkers. It's everywhere in the anime and you don't even have to look, while the manga at least tries to explain itself most of the time.

We can obviously attribute this to Toei's disjointed staff. Yoshitaka Toshio, a writer for the show, once provided two contradictory rankings on his Twitter account when asked how strong some of the fighters in the ToP were supposed to be (Gohan = 17 vs. Gohan > 17) and even said that he bases all of this on his personal opinion. Again, this is coming from one of the anime's script writers. That's not a good look for its internal consistency.

This was a good post. Thanks for breaking it down. That's what I tried to do in my manga vs anime differences thread. I agree with everything stated here. If had likes and dislikes on posts, I would've given you a thumbs up.

Like what is even the fucking point of incorporating Bardock who is the most irrelevant person to the Namek Saga then. To allude to Minus more than 20 years later?

Bardock special was the essential story for Bardock until Minus. The Frieza flashback, and its contradiction to Minus, tell it all.

Bardock isn't irrelevant. The purpose of that scene was to show how far back Goku's past is related to Freeza. The flashback does this right after Vegeta has already discussed his own past.

It was already alluded by Toriyama in 1995 here:

Spoiler:

and here:

Spoiler:

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

[mahakaishin1991]

I wonder, with the chart confirming Tarble is canon, if we could see him in this arc? I think a good way to bring him in would be to have him join the galactic patrol

[Draconic]

I like this new guy's colors but that horrible hair ruins everything about the design. He looks like the actual head part of the design got wet and everything spread all over.

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

Broly mini manga was made by Toyo it seems. It comes in Saikyo jump.

Really? Any idea on how many pages it would have?

[IM21]

Broly mini manga was made by Toyo it seems. It comes in Saikyo jump.

Really? Any idea on how many pages it would have?

no idea. The issue will be out in the next couple of days, so info will arrive soon. I think it's not the whole movie, but just some small things, like the RoF promo manga. The movie still won't be out when this manga is released, so I guess Toyo won't be revealing the whole thing.

[Rakurai]

I didn't decide shit. It's as clear as day in the DB manga.

Let me just break this down.

It's in the spirit of a retcon, since he was clearly thinking of the Bardock special, but it's not technically a retcon since the Bardock special never happened in the manga.

Spoiler:

Based on the most detailed and reliable summary we have thus far, Bardock and Frieza do not ever meet. Not even including the lack of bandanna, Bardock does try to throw an attack in futility but he doesn't seem to be up in space, nor are Frieza's henchmen behind him as the original manga suggests. Clearly this is some kind of continuity retcon, even if the Bardock special technically was never shown in the manga.

Bardock isn't irrelevant. The purpose of that scene was to show how far back Goku's past is related to Freeza. The flashback does this right after Vegeta has already discussed his own past.

It was already alluded by Toriyama in 1995 here:

Spoiler:

and here:

Spoiler:

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

Goku had nothing to do with the history of the Saiyans. Certainly, not to indicate that Goku was just a revenge tool for Bardock against Frieza. What Bardock's panel does for me is make me want to watch the TV special and find out what happened in more detail to him and the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

Have people seen the poll results for this btw? It's a poll for Goku's best battles in the manga:

https://twitter.com/V_Jump/status/1066922147216449536

Majin Vegeta in 3rd place?

That battle was like... eight pages long in total. It was basically a filler event compared to the other battles Goku's fought. You could even say it was skipped over like Gohan vs Kefla. I can't believe this got 3rd place in comparison to actual important (and better choreographed!!) battles like Goku vs Muten Roshi, Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Piccolo, or Goku vs Zamasu.

If this was anime, I could understand. But this is clearly manga-only, since vs Golden Frieza is excluded from the poll. This just proves to me that people are always thinking about the anime, especially for DB/Z. This is a clear example of how the anime distorts the public perception of the manga. It's fine to like the anime better than the manga, but this is why it's bad practice to judge the standard of one by the other because it creates these misconceptions and pre-emptive expectations. It's like when people criticize Toyotarou for not making battles or not giving characters moments to shine because of anime standards.

[ankokudaishogun]

Unlike in the anime, where 17 survives his self-destruct bomb purely by chance, in the manga it's acknowledged that he can't actually set it off in the first place because the bomb was already removed at the end of the Cell arc. It's framed as a fake-out strategy, as it should be.

A correction: in the Anime #17 doesn't "self-destruct" but "sacrifices" himself to stop one of Jiren's attack to hit Goku(&Vegeta? Not relevant anyway)
I agree they should have at least have him stating he got lucky and kept his head down waiting for a chance because he was still hurt by the explosion(this last element has been highlighted by Goku, though)

[shadowfox87]

Goku had nothing to do with the history of the Saiyans. Certainly, not to indicate that Goku was just a revenge tool for Bardock against Frieza. What Bardock's panel does for me is make me want to watch the TV special and find out what happened in more detail to him and the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

The DBS Broly movie is about the intertwined destinies of Goku, Vegeta, and Broly. Their past hence is connected to the history of the Saiyans, maybe not directly but indirectly. Goku's father, Vegeta's father, and Broly's father were all important characters to tell this story. When I saw Bardock in the manga, it did make me want to know more about Goku's past. At the time, the only thing available was the Bardock special, but in my mind, I always wanted to know what Toriyama's version of that would be.

[Marlowe89]

This was a good post. Thanks for breaking it down. That's what I tried to do in my manga vs anime differences thread. I agree with everything stated here. If had likes and dislikes on posts, I would've given you a thumbs up.

I appreciate it. There were other bits I could have included in there, but I wanted to keep the spirit of the post as relevant as possible to this thread.

A correction: in the Anime #17 doesn't "self-destruct"

That's incorrect. Elder Kai specifically says he self-destructed.

[PFM18]

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm positive I missed a few because I've discussed all of this stuff at length. This shit is absolutely bonkers. It's everywhere in the anime and you don't even have to look, while the manga at least tries to explain itself most of the time.

Wow, well you are really insisting upon derailing this thread. Oh well, it can't be helped.

Ok that's great and all that you don't like the anime, but this was supposed to be about things that were objectively contradictory not something that you just disagree with or believe to be subjectively illogical. Most of it consists of: misinterpretations, things that you don't like,(subjectively illogical to you), leaving out context, or are just factually incorrect. Except for this:

Oh, speaking of Goku: Genki Dama in the tournament is somehow vastly stronger than the one in the Buu arc, despite containing considerably less genki. Doesn't begin to compute, and that's not even going into the massive characterization problems associated with that episode.

Is actually a contradiction. I have seen people say that it is how the increased power of the characters has manifested itself and shows just how much stronger they have gotten, but that would only hold true if the Genki Dama was made of ki and not genki. But it is made of genki, and it being a massive Spirit Bomb with less than a dozen people is objectively not consistent with what we see in the Buu arc. So in that respect, you're right. I wasn't a fan, but I don't think it is really a big deal.

But there weren't any "massive characterization problems" in that episode. Not at all. But if you want to see massive characterization problems, look no further than Chapter 39.

Future Zamasu can literally keep up with SSB Goku one moment and then get his ass kicked by SS2 Trunks the next with zero explanation, which is outrageously stupid and remains the subject of countless scaling debates to this day. On the other hand, the manga specifies exactly what ballpark he's in, so you don't have people constantly playing the guessing game over whether he's supposed to be god level or beneath it whenever they discuss that version.

Yeah, Future Trunks fucked up the scaling in that arc fairly frequently. It's one of the gripes I have with that arc. So yeah, you're onto something here too. But at least this doesn't contradict material associated with the original series and completely undermine the narrative premise of the Zamasu arc. That honor was kept for the manga.

That's incorrect. Elder Kai specifically says he self-destructed.

Yeah he does self-destruct. But it doesn't contradict anything because he doesn't actually need a bomb to self-destruct. You can use ki to self-destruct like Vegeta did against Majin Buu, or Goku was going to use against "Omega Shenron" in GT. Especially given 17 had been training for the previous 13 or 14 years, it would make sense that he would be capable of such a thing. Nothing inconsistent here whatsoever. It was never specifically mentioned that he had used the bomb in his chest to self-destruct, well, because it was removed long ago.

[SaiyanGod117]

It was already alluded by Toriyama in 1995 here:

Spoiler:

and here:

Spoiler:

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

You're completely misinterpreting these statments, he realizes the fact that Bardock isn't type of story he would typically write in DB, but based off it's merits he wouldn't mind for it to be apart of DB. Evidently, acknowledged by his closing statements of saying "It was like watching a different kind of DB in a good way, so I thought it was nice" and "Thanks to this, I felt as though even Dragon Ball had been given a little bit more depth."

[Marlowe89]

Ok that's great and all that you don't like the anime, but this was supposed to be about things that were objectively contradictory

I'll be honest: I don't think you understand what an inconsistency is. That, or you're arbitrarily misconstruing the term in an unnecessarily narrow fashion to shift the goalposts of this discussion.

Inconsistencies come in many forms. They can be simple character facts that contradict other character facts (Goku's Genki Dama, 17's bomb), plot elements that explicitly contradict pre-established story rules (stamina usage in the Tournament of Power, Jiren overpowering something that isn't at all related to power), power scaling incongruities (Future Zamasu, Kale, Ribrianne, Gohan, 17 on multiple occasions), and more. Just about everything I listed falls into one of these categories.

The anime has many of these; the manga, while not perfect, has considerably fewer and simultaneously addresses most of the anime's. I also specifically told you I would be going over things that fail to adhere to the series' internal logic, so unless you were intentionally twisting my post, that should have been a given from the start.

Wow, well you are really insisting upon derailing this thread.

I'm not derailing anything, and several of us have already gone into extensive detail over why anime/manga comparisons aren't by themselves off-topic. You can choose to complain about it, but I don't intend to stop doing it.

You can use ki to self-destruct like Vegeta did against Majin Buu, or Goku was going to use against "Omega Shenron" in GT.

Dialogue repeatedly describes that technique (even in the DBS anime) to be Vegeta's attack, though. Unless 17 was trained by Vegeta in secret, it's natural to conclude that 17's self-destruction relates to his physiology as an android -- especially considering that he was erecting barriers around Goku and Vegeta in the same sequence.

GT quite simply doesn't count. What Toei does in non-canon continuations with little to no involvement from the original creator is of no concern to me.