"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:21 am

PFM18 wrote:
TKA wrote: You can justify 17's technique. The justification, however, flies in the face of everything that sequence of events was alluding to.
Not at all. How does the scene, in any way whatsoever, indicate that 17 is using the bomb that Gero implanted in him? Nobody mentions a bomb in his chest, it literally isn't implied in any capacity that it happened that way.

Was it an inconsistency when Vegeta just decided to do it? Or did the biggest narcissist in existence plan on sacrificing himself for others and go out of his way to learn the technique? Did Chaotzu at any point indicate he trained to learn how to do it?
Do you understand what narrative intent is? Do you understand narrative tone? Do you understand what allusions are? Do you understand subtext?

I'm not being pretentious here. These are genuine questions. If you're a person that only reads the text and ignores everything else the creator might be doing, like establishing a tone or discussing/alluding to certain themes, then this is something you will never understand.

I think I more than adequately described why the idea that the creators were going "17 totally learned a self-destruction technique offscreen" is a bad one and not at all supported by what happened in that sequence. I gave you links explaining how the characters talked about 17's explosion vs the other self-destruction techniques. I explained how Toei often tries to recreate moments from the original series for an appeal to nostalgia. I explained all of this.

Again, yes, you can rationalize and headcanon away the "inconsistency," but, once again, I prefer a dragonball where I don't have to do that.

Now, this is my last post on the matter because you fundamentally don't understand or are not willing to understand what I'm saying.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:47 am

TKA wrote:It's the equivalent of saying "Darth Vader only beat Obi-Wan because he was a tired old man." Yes, it's true Obi-Wan is a tired old man, but the point of the scene was that Vader had surpassed him.
I thought the point of that scene was that Vader could never surpass him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:05 pm

prince212 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:Toyotarou along with Nozawa will be interviewed in the Jan 2019 issue of Davinci (already released in Japan).

https://mobile.twitter.com/TOYOTARO_Vju ... 2108305408

Someone will probably be working to translate the DB section soon.
The way toyotaro talks about broly... makes me think he’ll appear sooner than later in the manga , with something non related to the movie ..
Good vibes toyo , always spreading the message of keep on improving :thumbup:
Toyotarou is a good person with good intentions. He's very humble too. His manga continues to sell well and I'm glad for it, it's one of the very few things I still enjoy left about DB. He makes the best out of something that was bad to begin with.

He's someone whom I can accept carrying on the mantle of DB. Not one-time artists like Lee or purely gag artists like Ooshi.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:57 pm

Simere wrote: I thought the point of that scene was that Vader could never surpass him.
Nope... sorta.
The point is Vader surpassed him in combat, but there's a whole other world that Vader could never appreciate.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball GT already provided that context that characters who blow themselves up can survive.
When? I only remember Goku considering to do it, and then he says that if it doesn't work everyone is doomed, but I don't remember other characters actualy doing it.
Miracles wrote:Official sources has Choutzu and Vegeta's exploding as techniques tho. To have 17 all of a sudden explode with no explanation makes it look like a contradiction. Even tho TOEI didn't mention anything about a device, bad writing [lack of explanation] makes the audience think back to the androids and their bombs. Especially when it was not established in canon, apart from the androids self destruct devices, they couldn't accomplish such a thing.
Vegeta all of the sudden doing it too can also be seen as a contradiction, there's no hint or foreshadowing that he could do it until he did, and with the kind of character he is, there's no reason he'd train to create a technique like that, so either we're having a difficult/somewhat difficult move Vegeta decided to make while training, making no sense with the character, or just a move he could make up on the fly, making sense with that scene, so 17 doing it isn't any worse than when Vegeta did it.
alakazam^ wrote:Do we even know if #17 knows he doesn't have the bomb anymore? Maybe that's why he was able to survive because he was trying to activate the bomb but couldn't and that explosion didn't have enough force because of it.
Didn't 17 feel like he owed Krillin in the anime too? If so it might be because of that, or maybe it's because he was taking care of 18...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:"It has everything to do with your response about 17 and 18 being able to use ki-based attacks, since you were clearly trying to exemplify how they could have also used Vegeta's self-destruction technique or something similar without a bomb."

In direct contrast to ignoring them, those two points are almost exclusively the only things I've been addressing throughout this entire conversation.

Work on your reading comprehension skills and make an effort to respond to those rebuttals or don't reply. You're literally wasting both mine and others people's time by repeatedly failing to do so, and that's not a point I intend to repeat going forward.
My original point was that #17 could have learned how to manually self-destruct using Ki. That's it. Your response to this basically accumulated to you going off on tangent about how because #18 threatened the blow herself means she always had an alternative. Which future stories never imply, so that response really just came across as rambling.

Then you remarked about it wouldn't be coherent for #17 to learn such a technique wouldn't be coherent writing, which is an unfounded claim given how nearly every character we see blow themselves up in Dragon Ball never provided any kind of foreshadowing at how and when. And top of this, there is never any distinction given in the story (and no, the guidebook don't count as the story) that self-destructing is an ability limited to a certain amount of people. And just to further hammer home this point, characters learn new techniques in Dragon Ball off-screen constantly. I have no idea why no all of sudden it's become a problem that #17 can utilize an technique displayed by several other characters in the show.

Your general responses my point have mostly been whataboutisms.
Marlowe89 wrote:No, you're just ignoring the fact that I've already addressed every one of those things. It's more like you're constantly moving goalposts to some Toei-inclusive context after I already made it clear that it's not what I'm discussing, so again, for obvious reasons, I won't be replying to anything about Future Trunks in the DBS anime, GT, or the anime's Tournament of Power going forward. They have no precedence in this discussion because they're wholly irrelevant to my premise.
Some characters can self destruct and can survive. We've seen this happen twice in the original story with Cell and Majin Boo. And the excuse of "B-But they can regenerate" is a non-factor considering the fact that regeneration doesn't negate permanent death. And in Cell's case, it was total fucking luck that he managed to survive, which in itself was already a scenario that shouldn't have escalated to that point given the explanation we later get from the circumstances of his survival.

And in the circumstances of "Characters who should be dead but somehow come back to life" Toriyama already already provided that context of that when King Piccolo killed Goku and then Goku managed to bring himself back to life and somehow restart his heart.

The reason I mentioned GT is because it's sums up my point in general: characters can recover and/or survive scenarios where it seems that death is a certainty, and that Dragon Ball is willing to abandon logic in general to move the plot forward. Is Super guilty of doing such a thing? Yes. But it didn't just suddenly invent the storytelling aspect that characters can miraculous survie attacks that seem to put them that at death's door.

Sometimes there can extenuating circumstances where characters who shouldn't be seemingly able to make is out of scenario alive just so happen to do whether it's because of luck, being strong enough to do so or because the plot just demanded for it happen.

I'm not saying any of this stuff is acceptable, but it just so happens to be something that Dragon Ball can do from time to time.
Marlowe89 wrote:No, it's not like saying that.

Vegeta's self-destruction technique is specific to Vegeta. If it wasn't, the (select few) other characters capable of blowing themselves up wouldn't have used completely different moves, some of which aren't even directly ki-based, to facilitate the same result.

Pointing out that moves can be learned or imitated is such an absurd misrepresentation of what I'm saying that I'm almost surprised at how consistently you appear to be ignoring it. Again, I shouldn't have to explain why Vegeta doesn't use Instant Transmission. He doesn't know how to use it. 17 wasn't around to imitate or learn Vegeta's attack, therefore it's actually less reasonable to presume that he -- by the main story's framework -- CAN use it rather than can't.

This reeeeaaally isn't difficult to understand. If anyone could do it without learning it, barring those with the ability to copy techniques they directly observe themselves, then that would have been presented in the original manga. It wasn't.
The story doesn't always go out of its way to states that specific techniques are patented and owned by this character and cannot be used or imitated in any fashion by anyone. That's an absurd conclusion to come to. Characters in Dragon Ball have the freedom to create any Ki based attacks they please to. Techniques in Dragon Ball aren't copyrighted. Of course the story give some context that there are a certain abilities that are tied to specific races or people. But Self Destruction techniques are not one of them. Hell, the very same arc where turns Vegeta himself into a nuke and produces an explosion of Ki, Super Boo does the exact same thing.

If somebody else has the ingenuity to create a Ki based self destruction attack, then they can fucking do it, just like Vegeta was able to. If another character can have the ability to something similar to Vegeta's Final Explosion in a later story, it's not going to contradicts anything because Vegeta was the first person to do show the capability to do something like that and and he wasn't the last in Dragon Ball.

And before you bring up what's stated in the Daizenshuu, let me just nip this right in the bud: The Daizenshuu volumes are supplementary material that can be taken for its word or ignored entirely. It is not an official extension of Toriyama's material that must be abided by as fact. Toriyama provided no content for the guidebooks and in later interviews and in other supplementary material has even contradicted some of the information stated what was stated in the Daizenshuu. The Daizenshuu volumes have about as much authority as Dragon Ball GT (both being products created by third parties that Toriyama makes abundantly clear he has extremely minimal narrative creative input in).
Marlowe89 wrote:My argument pertains entirely to the former ("you need to suspend your disbelief", "Dragon Ball defied its own logic"), not the latter.
Fair enough. My counter-argument is that this not the most egregious of character surviving seemingly certain death.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:58 pm

I think many could agree that in both medias ToP sucked bad, but I'm really curious how this Galactic Patrol thing will be.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:09 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball GT already provided that context that characters who blow themselves up can survive.
When? I only remember Goku considering to do it, and then he says that if it doesn't work everyone is doomed, but I don't remember other characters actualy doing it.
Goku says he may have to resorts to blowing himself up as it's the only thing he can think of. And then Goku blows himself up, but #17 manages to survive by putting up a barrier at the last moment, while Goku also manages to survive because... reasons. Although he regress back to childlike base form and he's left so depleted from Ki that he can't move a finger.

So naturally a few moments later he charges at Super #17, punches a hole through him and kill him with a Kamehameha in Super #17's giant open chest wound.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

===

Hmm. I've really derailed this thread over the last few pages. Apologies.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:57 pm

Noah wrote:I think many could agree that in both medias ToP sucked bad, but I'm really curious how this Galactic Patrol thing will be.
I definitely can't agree with that. I think the manga was the lesser version, but I think the end was handled really well, and just had a fantastic climax. I wouldn't say it "sucked bad" especially since I think the premise itself is so interesting and ambitious. I don't think either of them came close to reaching the potential that the arc had, but I think the same could be same for several arcs and I don't think that constitutes making the arc bad.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:13 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Goku says he may have to resorts to blowing himself up as it's the only thing he can think of. And then Goku blows himself up, but #17 manages to survive by putting up a barrier at the last moment, while Goku also manages to survive because... reasons. Although he regress back to childlike base form and he's left so depleted from Ki that he can't move a finger.

So naturally a few moments later he charges at Super #17, punches a hole through him and kill hims a Kamehameha in Super #17 giant open chest wound.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

===

Hmm. I've really derailed this thread over the last few pages. Apologies.
Ah yeah, I forgot that he tried that on Super 17 too, thought he only considered to do so on Omega.

Weird 17 says he used a barrier instead of just absorbing like he did with literaly every ki attack thrown at him lol.

Anyways, I wonder what El Cabro Demoníaco's name is gonne be a pun for, maybe magic-spell related like Babidi? Well, that's assuming he's a magic user or related to Babidi...
PFM18 wrote:I definitely can't agree with that. I think the manga was the lesser version, but I think the end was handled really well, and just had a fantastic climax. I wouldn't say it "sucked bad" especially since I think the premise itself is so interesting and ambitious. I don't think either of them came close to reaching the potential that the arc had, but I think the same could be same for several arcs and I don't think that constitutes making the arc bad.
Well, I'll say that the anime version had more fun stuff, Hit and Goku vs Dyspo and that other guy, Hit vs Jiren, episode 105, Freeza's shenanigans, Gohan vs the only interesting character from universe 10, the last two episodes, among a few other stuff, but honestly, even with those, for me ToP was the most whatever thing I remember watching in DB, not the worst thing, but it's mostly so not interesting... That's too bad really, I don't really think the idea of ToP is good, but even a "bad" idea can be interesting with the right execution.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:57 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: My original point was that #17 could have learned how to manually self-destruct using Ki. That's it. Your response to this basically accumulated to you going off on tangent about how because #18 threatened the blow herself means she always had an alternative.
That was not a tangent. That was a very brief example (out of many) to illustrate why the Androids' self-destruction bombs are narratively tied to the Androids' self-destruction.

These are tangents and whataboutisms:
Lord Beerus wrote:Cell core's was fucking destroyed. He shouldn't have been able regenerate. Period. But the explanation for his survival actually creates more issues than just the fact he survive in the first place does.
Lord Beerus wrote: Some characters can self destruct and can survive. We've seen this happen twice in the original story with Cell and Majin Boo. And the excuse of "B-But they can regenerate" is a non-factor considering the fact that regeneration doesn't negate permanent death. And in Cell's case, it was total fucking luck that he managed to survive, which in itself was already a scenario that shouldn't have escalated to that point given the explanation we later get from the circumstances of his survival.
Lord Beerus wrote: And in the circumstances of "Characters who should be dead but somehow come back to life" Toriyama already already provided that context of that when King Piccolo killed Goku and then Goku managed to bring himself back to life and somehow restart his heart. 
They're irrelevant because I'm specifically talking about characters blowing themselves up (how much more literally can I phrase this?) and physically remaining in one piece immediately afterwards, something I've repeatedly made clear throughout our discussion, not... "miraculously surviving death's door" or whatever the hell you've been babbling about. My point is that it's badly written, it's irrationally asinine beyond all human comprehension, and yes, it's a Toei invention.
Lord Beerus wrote:The story doesn't always go out of its way to states that specific techniques are patented and owned by this character and cannot be used or imitated in any fashion by anyone. That's an absurd conclusion to come to.
It's also an absurd misrepresentation of my point, like I just told you before. I never made that claim and you're putting words in my mouth, so maybe you should read my posts more carefully before replying. I shouldn't have to keep exhaustively clarifying things like this because you skimmed over a sentence you didn't pay attention to.

The point is that 17 couldn't have imitated a technique he wasn't exposed to, and he couldn't have learned a technique from someone he never trained under. As Herms clarified in a previous link in this thread, what 17 did and what Vegeta did are described as two entirely separate moves. You can always argue that 17 invented his own self-destruction move, but again, that's engaging in headcanon at the expense of the story's allusions. It's not TECHNICALLY a plot hole, but it's not a particularly good way of ironing out the scriptwriting staff's lack of coherency either.

Also, stop acting as if I'm claiming that the original manga is devoid of any internal problems. That's a fairly irritating strawman argument. We're talking about Super.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:28 pm

Image
Here we have some thoughts about the cover of volume 8
One of my favorite things back in the days was Toriyama volume covers , so unique , showing non related material , vehicles , animals etc . Toyotaro is doing a good job in that department too once in a while
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:48 pm

prince212 wrote: Here we have some thoughts about the cover of volume 8
One of my favorite things back in the days was Toriyama volume covers , so unique , showing non related material , vehicles , animals etc . Toyotaro is doing a good job in that department too once in a while
I get the feeling that Toyotaro might be taking art classes. He could just be experimenting more, but I couldn't have imagined him drawing something like that up until now. I like it!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:50 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:The point is that 17 couldn't have imitated a technique he wasn't exposed to, and he couldn't have learned a technique from someone he never trained under.
I don't know why this keeps being said. We NEVER got the idea that anybody actually needed to go out of their way to learn that technique. It literally is, by all indications, the most basic technique considering Vegeta and Chaotzu both did it without anybody teaching it to them, and never actually making an effort to learn it. They just did it. Because ya know, it is just a basic ki manipulation technique. It isn't like the Makankosoppo or something, where you need to practice and learn a specialized technique. We haven't ever, at any point, given any reason to believe that this "technique" is like that. That's all there is to it.

And the craziest part about it, semantics aside, there's no indication that the scene actually uses Gero's bomb in 17's chest. No mention of a bomb in his chest or anything of the like.

This entire thing is completely ridiculous.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:15 pm

PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:People are actually arguing the validity of 17 and Vegeta blowing themselves up and shrugging it off like it was no big deal?
No, not at all. That's an entirely different discussion. Try to pay more attention.

Some people are irrationally making the claim that in the anime iteration that 17 used the bomb placed in his chest to self-destruct(therefore making it an inconsistency because the bomb was removed), when that wasn't hinted at, stated or implied in any capacity whatsoever.
What I'm seeing is a bunch of headcanoning to explain away a poorly thought out, mediocre piece of writing who's quality (or lack thereof) is unfortunately is consistent within the Super series. So uh, try to take your own advice.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:21 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:People are actually arguing the validity of 17 and Vegeta blowing themselves up and shrugging it off like it was no big deal?
No, not at all. That's an entirely different discussion. Try to pay more attention.

Some people are irrationally making the claim that in the anime iteration that 17 used the bomb placed in his chest to self-destruct(therefore making it an inconsistency because the bomb was removed), when that wasn't hinted at, stated or implied in any capacity whatsoever.
What I'm seeing is a bunch of headcanoning to explain away a poorly thought out, mediocre piece of writing who's quality (or lack thereof) is unfortunately is consistent within the Super series. So uh, try to take your own advice.
Call it what you want. It's just using common sense. If we are going by the same logic, then Majin Vegeta's Final Atonement is an inconsistent piece of writing in and of itself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:55 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:That was not a tangent. That was a very brief example (out of many) to illustrate why the Androids' self-destruction bombs are narratively tied to the Androids' self-destruction.
And my point was that your point had nothing to do with my original comment being that the story never implies #17 still had the bomb inside of him and that #17, being a mostly human composed cyborg, can still still utilize Ki and create Ki based self-destruction technique like we see in the original story and other Dragon Ball material.
Marlowe89 wrote:These are tangents and whataboutisms
I only made that point about Cell in response to the statement you originally made about Cell had a excuse for coming back to life after he self-destructed. And my response was that his excuse made no goddamn sense, flew in face of logic and continuity, and in retrospect, the explanation created more problems than it solved. That wasn't a tangent and/or whataboutism. It's a response to an off-hand comment you made.

And, yeah, characters self destruct and can survive. Again, not a tangents and/or whataboutism because we see this happen in Dragon Ball.
Marlowe89 wrote:They're irrelevant because I'm specifically talking about characters blowing themselves up (how much more literally can I phrase this?) and physically remaining in one piece immediately afterwards, something I've repeatedly made clear throughout our discussion, not... "miraculously surviving death's door" or whatever the hell you've been babbling about. My point is that it's badly written, it's irrationally asinine beyond all human comprehension, and yes, it's a Toei invention.
My point is that Toriyama gave the context of "a character who should be dead and later turns out to be actually no dead later on" and that Toei simply applies that already broken and stupid logic in a scenario where character's self-destruct. I'm saying this to justify the scene as something logical or entirely coherent. The crux of my argument is that Dragon Ball does unbelievable shit to move forward the plot the scenario with #17 was one of those cases.

I made the case that:

a. Toriyama has given the context that Dragon Ball's plot can move forward even with the dubious scenario where a character is killed and but can later be revealed to be alive

b. Dragon Ball has shown that characters can survive their own self destruction techniques in illogical manners

c. Dragon Ball, in general, does not conform to real life logic

I'm well aware that #17's case in the Super anime is quite unique. I'm just making the point that such a moment happening in Dragon Ball has foundation. That is not to infer that the moment in particular is wholly consistent with Toriyama's story. But I'm merely making the statement that, with the nature of Dragon Ball's writing, #17 surviving his own self-destruction is not out of norm with how characters can cheat death in the most egregious manner.

Again, this is not to say that this a perfectly okay thing to happen in any fashion. Toei just built that moment off of a logically very faulty foundation, and they are culpable for making that creative decision. But they are not at fault for suddenly deciding that they can be a scenario in the narrative of Dragon Ball where are character who should be dead, turns out to not be dead. They used and exploited that scenario in the plot, and combined it with the fact that some characters can survive self-destructing in the most dubious nature possible (as mentioned with Cell) and abused Dragon Ball's general nonsensical nature to have a (another) moment where a character self-destructs but survives.
Marlowe89 wrote:It's also an absurd misrepresentation of my point, like I just told you before. I never made that claim and you're putting words in my mouth, so maybe you should read my posts more carefully before replying. I shouldn't have to keep exhaustively clarifying things like this because you skimmed over a sentence you didn't pay attention to.

The point is that 17 couldn't have imitated a technique he wasn't exposed to, and he couldn't have learned a technique from someone he never trained under. As Herms clarified in a previous link in this thread, what 17 did and what Vegeta did are described as two entirely separate moves. You can always argue that 17 invented his own self-destruction move, but again, that's engaging in headcanon at the expense of the story's allusions. It's not TECHNICALLY a plot hole, but it's not a particularly good way of ironing out the scriptwriting staff's lack of coherency either.

Also, stop acting as if I'm claiming that the original manga is devoid of any internal problems. That's a fairly irritating strawman argument. We're talking about Super.
You said:
Vegeta's self-destruction technique is specific to Vegeta. If it wasn't, the (select few) other characters capable of blowing themselves up wouldn't have used completely different moves, some of which aren't even directly ki-based, to facilitate the same result.
My response was that the story never indicated that the ability was handcuffed to Vegeta. It was just simply an ability that Vegeta could use. idea's aren't exclusive in Dragon Ball. Some people can have the ingenuity to create create something similar to something that already exists if they have no knowledge of it. We see how #17 took a barrier technique and made it incredibly versatile (in the anime). What is stopping him from taking that versatility and applying to create new attack? Nothing.

The creativity when it comes to Ki based attacks in endless and unrestricted and truly comes down to whether the user has the skill to do the shit he/she wants to do. Exposure isn't mandatory. Creativity can be spontaneous. You coming to the conclusion that #17 inventing his own self-destruction technique as "headcanon" is ridiculous and works against the nature of how Dragon Ball is a story where the possibilities of Ki techniques are practically limitless and unbounded. With your rationale, you're basically questioning the logistics of how Freeza can shoots laser from his eyes despite not seeing King Piccolo or Tenshinhan do it. Or how #18 was able to use the Kienzan despite Toriyama never providing any context of her witnessing the ability or her training with Krillin prior to her displaying the technique in the 25th WMAT.

What we know about Vegeta's Final Explosion technique is that he generates enough Ki from within him to produce an immense shockwave of energy that destroys everything it covers in a vast area. Do we see something similar to this prior to Vegeta displaying that technique? Yes. Do we see something similar to this after Vegeta displays that technique? Yes. And that's all you need to know.

And I've never even insinuated that you are claiming the original manga that isn't devoid of internal problems. I've only merely pointing out the continuity issues of Cell explanation for how he survived blowing himself (a comment you originally made). I'm not trying to project this image of your personal self as a person who ignore issues with Toriyama's storytelling. I'm just laying out the issues in support of my argument. I'm not saying or implying that you aren't aware of them. How you came to that conclusion is quite bizarre.

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alakazam^
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by alakazam^ » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:10 pm

TKA wrote:Again, yes, you can rationalize and headcanon away the "inconsistency," but, once again, I prefer a dragonball where I don't have to do that.
You don't prefer Toriyama's manga, then. Good to know.
Marlowe89 wrote:The point is that 17 couldn't have imitated a technique he wasn't exposed to, and he couldn't have learned a technique from someone he never trained under. As Herms clarified in a previous link in this thread, what 17 did and what Vegeta did are described as two entirely separate moves. You can always argue that 17 invented his own self-destruction move, but again, that's engaging in headcanon at the expense of the story's allusions. It's not TECHNICALLY a plot hole, but it's not a particularly good way of ironing out the scriptwriting staff's lack of coherency either.
#17 didn't have to imitate anyone. As Vegeeta showed, anyone who can manipulate ki can create an explosion that's able to kill themselves as well, why is this so hard to understand?

Sure, it's headcanon because you say so but your only counterarguments are the Daizenshuu and characters using two different words to describe an explosion that's supposed to kill you? Yeah, that's reaching hard. The different words don't matter because the end result is the same and the Daizenshuu isn't reliable as was already mentioned. It's not a plothole, period. And it's not incoherent, either.

This biased nonsense needs to stop.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:23 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Noah wrote:I think many could agree that in both medias ToP sucked bad, but I'm really curious how this Galactic Patrol thing will be.
I definitely can't agree with that. I think the manga was the lesser version, but I think the end was handled really well, and just had a fantastic climax. I wouldn't say it "sucked bad" especially since I think the premise itself is so interesting and ambitious. I don't think either of them came close to reaching the potential that the arc had, but I think the same could be same for several arcs and I don't think that constitutes making the arc bad.
I frankly think that the ending of the manga was handled extremely poorly. We’re supposed to buy this idea that #17’s wish was his way of sticking it to the Zen-Ohs, except that really doesn’t work when you realize that there is absolutely nothing preventing the little psychopaths from just wiping everything out all over again. What exactly did #17’s wish accomplish? It just doesn’t make any sense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:46 pm

batistabus wrote:
prince212 wrote: Here we have some thoughts about the cover of volume 8
One of my favorite things back in the days was Toriyama volume covers , so unique , showing non related material , vehicles , animals etc . Toyotaro is doing a good job in that department too once in a while
I get the feeling that Toyotaro might be taking art classes. He could just be experimenting more, but I couldn't have imagined him drawing something like that up until now. I like it!
Well volume 3 already showed us that he’s capable to do that kind of awesome covers http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/spin-of ... er/vol-03/
So I guess he’s long ago able to draw nice “posters” , I think it’s more a matter of time available to do them than a matter of training or “taking classes “ , of course he’s improving, mainly because of his will to do so and the practice .
Now he has an opportunity to shine exploiting the new arc unseen in an anime version , always more exciting to read than a re-telling with different approach....
————————————————————————

Talking about that android 17 explosion on top arc , my guess is that Tory script was too basic for the anime and so they came with the “oops I survived , I did really want to self explote “ , while in the manga they could build a better “plan and teamwork “ fake explosion scenario with freeza involved, with is infinitely better and provides android 17 better reasons to be the winner of the tournament.
Also , manga is being attacked a lot for references approaching, while the anime version has even more , and I can see why some people though a17 as a bomb was the case , it was not totally clear , to the point that the manga had to clearify that matter . Wasn’t vegeta also self exploiting against toppo ? They abuse of that thing .
In the original series I remember self explosion to be a real thing , not that joke .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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