"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:24 am

Honestly, to all of you still complaining about Merus being fast enough to appear behind Vegeta, at this point we're just going to have to except SSG and SSB to be "put down" in order for new powerful characters to even stand a chance. Just how SSJ was once an incredible thing and how now its just a transformation with some power, we're going to have to expect God and Blue to have the same fate. I mean, Broly caught up to Goku and Vegeta in less than an hour.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:48 am

superfan2024 wrote:Honestly, to all of you still complaining about Merus being fast enough to appear behind Vegeta, at this point we're just going to have to except SSG and SSB to be "put down" in order for new powerful characters to even stand a chance. Just how SSJ was once an incredible thing and how now its just a transformation with some power, we're going to have to expect God and Blue to have the same fate. I mean, Broly caught up to Goku and Vegeta in less than an hour.
Why are you talking about God and Blue in reference to Merus? Merus was faster than Goku and Vegeta in base.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:54 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:
superfan2024 wrote:Honestly, to all of you still complaining about Merus being fast enough to appear behind Vegeta, at this point we're just going to have to except SSG and SSB to be "put down" in order for new powerful characters to even stand a chance. Just how SSJ was once an incredible thing and how now its just a transformation with some power, we're going to have to expect God and Blue to have the same fate. I mean, Broly caught up to Goku and Vegeta in less than an hour.
Why are you talking about God and Blue in reference to Merus? Merus was faster than Goku and Vegeta in base.
I'm generally speaking because people are saying that it makes no sense how Merus was faster than Goku and Vegeta because they have powers of a God. And i'm also tying things back to the ToP and that whole power battle fiasco.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:13 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cipher_db/st ... 3733880832

Galactic King: "How many times do I have to tell you, that's my dick."

Viz: "That's not a tentacle."

Dat censorship. I forgot was this also present in early Super? I think I prefer the Viz version where the implied subtlety makes the joke funnier.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:28 am

Read the translated chapter and a few thoughts popped into my mind:

- Moro has a really Galactus vibe going for him with his planet life draining powers and I really dig that. But what's really gonna make this guy is his personality. Dragon Ball is gistory bad when it comes to magic based characters, because they either forget they either forget their conveniently extremely power and efficient abilities for the sake of the plot not ending in like 10 seconds, or they're cavalry thrown under a bus not long after their initial appearance and never mentioned again.

- The temporary recruit of Goku and Vegeta as galactic Patrolman give me this "filler arc" vibe that I just can't shake off.

- I'm so happy that the "Goku unknowingly touching the Galactic King's penis" joke made a return. I really hope it becomes a running gag.

- Toyotaro is really pushing Merus hard as this big deal, with regards to his abilities, and I'm pretty ambelivent to it all.

- Toyotaro's panelling has improved vastly.

- I'm conflicted about the train robbing sequence. On one hand, it provides some unique choreography in terms to dealing with the bad guys as opposed to the usual tried and true rapid fire fistsicuff that Dragon Ball prides itself in. But on the other hand, it seems like a giant waste of time as it doesn't lead to anything in the plot and just seems like a scene that existed only to prop up Merus and put him over a competent and effective Galactic Patrolman. Which would have been fine, if his initial appearance already didn't do a sufficient enough job of that.

- I just pray this arc doesn't peak early or have Majin Boo as a plot device centre piece for this arc and have him do nothing in combat.

Overall, this is one Toyotaro's finest Dragon Ball chapter in years.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GokuDragonBall » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:00 pm

I have a feeling Merus will turn out to be a traitor or something. On its own, the chapter is really fun and at the end of the day that's what matter the most in a DB story to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:13 pm

I’m happy that the manga is skipping the Broly movie, as that sort of fits with both mediums.
Finally Toyotaro is ahead of the anime again, giving his manga a better reason to exist instead than it just being the “let’s see what Toyotaro’s take on X and Y is” thing.

Chapter 43
About the latest chapter, I actually enjoyed it. It was surely an entertaining read and the arc sounds very interesting and promising. I feel like there was too much time wasted on Merus though, and while I understand that it’s better when the pace isn’t rushed, I also think that this chapter feels more like a bonus chapter for Jaco’s manga than a Super’s chapter.
As entertaining as it was to know more about the Galactic Patrol and to see them in action, I didn’t feel like this helped moving the plot enough; but I may be entirely wrong if it turns out that Merus will play a big part in this arc than what I expect. I dislike his design but I’m very intrigued about what his true deal is as far as his power goes (is he using magic?).

I was very pleased with Toyotaro’s improving in his panelling: it’s not perfect yet but the story now has better flowing and I didn’t catch as many “useless” panels as before. I still dislike his habit of showing a “progression” through different panels, each shrinking (is this explanation of mine even understandable?). That’s something Toriyama never did and for good reasons: it looks bad, almost as if Toyotaro is trying to emulate the feeling of an anime, while forgetting that he’s drawing a manga. There can surely be better ways to convey what he tries to convey with this weird panelling.
I am not talking about the last page, which sort of does this progression thing, as that feels appropriate as an introduction to our villain’s first look while also making him look menacing.
Moro could end up really being a great villain and I can’t wait to see more of him, to know what his goals and motivations are and how he will interact with Goku and co.

FILLER OR NOT?
I would also like to address my stance on whether or not this arc will be “filler” or not.
My opinion is that this should stay as a manga-only arc. Not because it is bad, uninteresting or because it’s mostly Toyotaro ideas and designs, but because I feel like it will continue to be detrimental for both the anime and the manga to tell the same story in a different way, and that also creates a lot of confusion among the fans who tend to confuse the different takes the anime and manga take regarding the same plot point, not to mention it creates division among the fandom.
Ideally, for me, the anime should tell Toriyama’s stories with the manga having a side-story in the middle (which could still be counted as canon, but wouldn’t be as impactful as Toriyama’s own stories) written by Toyotaro with Toriyama’s supervision.
This would mean: more stories, less confusion, less restrictions for Toyotaro who would focus on bringing stories without having to adhere to what Toriyama’s outline says or having to do things differently from the anime just for the sake of it, and he could also adopt a “write as you go along” approach similar to what Toriyama did in the past.
This could also boost the manga sales as people would be much more interested in reading a new story compared to what they already saw on television.
In my humble opinion, that would be a win-win situation.
HELL, the anime could reference some of what happens in the manga (and, on the other side, the manga would reference what happened in the anime): it worked with RoF and now with Broly, why can’t it work with TV stories?

In conclusion, I just want to say one thing: I wished Super could become a more coherent product with a single story instead of a mess with two takes on the same thing. With the anime over for the time being (but possibly returning in a different form, likely still under the Super subtitle but possibly with a new logo/new subtitle and even more likely with good pre-production and maybe more involvement from Toriyama) and the manga starting a new arc ahead of it, this is their perfect chance to fix this last thing that’s still holding Super back.
I would like to hear your opinions on this topic.
Last edited by emperior on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:15 pm

Just realized that the Grand Kaioshin sacrificing his Godly Ki to seal away the GOAT's power is a subtle explanation as to why Boo was never able to use Godly Ki. Then again, Boo also absorbed the South Kaioshin, so I guess it wasn't an intentional explanation on Toyotaro's part. I'm mixed on the train sequence. I think it's cool (very GT-esque) but overstays its welcome for a bit. Also I appreciate a setpiece where flying isn't a factor but it breaks my suspension of disbelief a bit that nobody in the Galactic Patrol can fly when it's such a basic skill.

I liked the chapter, but Toyotaro always starts arcs off well. It's when they get to the middle point that they start to lose steam, presumably from lack of interest or a concern to catch up to the anime. Without the anime, hopefully things will have time to breathe.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jaden » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:37 pm

Inb4 Merus has UI :D them eyes
Moro seems like a Bojack/Demigra type of villain, where the villain had been locked away for a very long time and somehow escapes imprisonment.
Guess I'm not the only one thinking Merus has something to do with Moro's escape.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:42 pm

emperior wrote: In conclusion, I just want to say one thing: I wished Super could become a more coherent product with a single story instead of a mess with two takes on the same thing. With the anime over for the time being (but possibly returning in a different form, likely still under the Super subtitle but possibly with a new logo/new subtitle and even more likely with good pre-production and maybe more involvement from Toriyama) and the manga starting a new arc ahead of it, this is their perfect chance to fix this last thing that’s still holding Super back.
I would like to hear your opinions on this topic.
I want a more coherent product like you with a single story as well. But I strongly believe that the main story of DB should be contained within the manga, the most natural medium for Toriyama to work in. Toriyama & Toyotarou working together brings about the best of DB as it stands. Toei adapting Toriyama's outlines will still lead to narrative inconsistencies which we saw during Super with multiple episode writers. We would get more unnecessary and dumb retcons cause Toriyama can't remember his original story anymore which Toei would just blindly adapt as is. And transformations like SSB-KK and SSBE simply don't fit within the story anymore.

The anime should follow a more seasonal schedule and adapt the manga. I would absolutely not mind waiting for Toei or some other studio to produce a high quality 26-episode adaptation of what the manga covered, and with extended battle choreography or other scenes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Rakurai wrote:
emperior wrote: In conclusion, I just want to say one thing: I wished Super could become a more coherent product with a single story instead of a mess with two takes on the same thing. With the anime over for the time being (but possibly returning in a different form, likely still under the Super subtitle but possibly with a new logo/new subtitle and even more likely with good pre-production and maybe more involvement from Toriyama) and the manga starting a new arc ahead of it, this is their perfect chance to fix this last thing that’s still holding Super back.
I would like to hear your opinions on this topic.
I want a more coherent product like you with a single story as well. But I strongly believe that the main story of DB should be contained within the manga, the most natural medium for Toriyama to work in. Toriyama & Toyotarou working together brings about the best of DB as it stands. Toei adapting Toriyama's outlines will still lead to narrative inconsistencies which we saw during Super with multiple episode writers. We would get more unnecessary and dumb retcons cause Toriyama can't remember his original story anymore which Toei would just blindly adapt as is. And transformations like SSB-KK and SSBE simply don't fit within the story anymore.

The anime should follow a more seasonal schedule and adapt the manga. I would absolutely not mind waiting for Toei or some other studio to produce a high quality 26-episode adaptation of what the manga covered, and with extended battle choreography or other scenes.
Super’s writing problems, in the anime, can probably be solved by having an head writer and Toriyama having more time to check the scripts, and by having the writers coordinate better. I think that can be fixed with better planning and more pre-production for a new show.
Having to wait for Toyotaro’s manga is out of the options, in my opinion, as the manga is monthly, and thus slower, and it’s not even very popular to begin with.
If that was a weekly continuation by Toriyama, then of course it would be adapted in the same way the original manga was adapted, but Toriyama having the chance to work behind the scenes on the scripts in a format that goes much faster is a huge bonus I wouldn’t throw away.

If Toriyama could write up a very long script as he did for Broly, that would be a lot of material to adapt in a anime. Nagamine’s original storyboard for the movie was 3 hours long! That’s a lot of time, that could be even more if that was divided into single episodes, as it could turn out to be even around 12 or more episodes, with possibly room for Toriyama to write even more plot points because of no restrictions to make it a movie.
The anime DOESN’T have to make up their own dialogue to be honest: adapting an original script from Toriyama instead of an outline would already be plenty to make a full fledged arc and in that case it would be mostly up to the directors/storyboarders of the single episodes to convey the script, with the series director being the one handling how to divide the script into 20-24 minutes long episodes. This would also save time for the writers, who would probably have a marginal role if they would have any role at all.
If this thing is possible, that would be dope in my opinion.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Majin Jator » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:24 pm

I'm mildly curious about the villain and totally disinterested about the Mero guy. More importantly, I hope Buu wakes up and actually does shit. An arc full of Jaco & Buu shenanigans can easily become my favourite arc from Super.

The chapter reminds me of the kind of stories Toriyama wrote after DB. Not necessarily bad, just different. Not a fan of Toyotaro, but din't see any glaring flaw with this one. I'll prefer to see the anime version, but this will do for now.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolySSJL » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:29 pm

Rakurai wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Cipher_db/st ... 3733880832

Galactic King: "How many times do I have to tell you, that's my dick."

Viz: "That's not a tentacle."

Dat censorship. I forgot was this also present in early Super? I think I prefer the Viz version where the implied subtlety makes the joke funnier.
This is true? What a shame...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:11 pm

Rakurai wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Cipher_db/st ... 3733880832

Galactic King: "How many times do I have to tell you, that's my dick."

Viz: "That's not a tentacle."

Dat censorship. I forgot was this also present in early Super? I think I prefer the Viz version where the implied subtlety makes the joke funnier.
The Viz censorship works in favour of this scene in my opinion. It sounds a little weird and rude for the Galactic King to explicitly state that’s his dick. Of course it may imply he’s very annoyed by this behaviour of Goku and that’s why he gets rude and uses a bad language.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:54 pm

Even though I've been down on the manga for a while now I'm really liking this new arc so far. I'm glad Toyo is able to have a chance at making his own arc instead of adapting ones from the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:31 pm

emperior wrote: Super’s writing problems, in the anime, can probably be solved by having an head writer and Toriyama having more time to check the scripts, and by having the writers coordinate better. I think that can be fixed with better planning and more pre-production for a new show.
Having to wait for Toyotaro’s manga is out of the options, in my opinion, as the manga is monthly, and thus slower, and it’s not even very popular to begin with.
If that was a weekly continuation by Toriyama, then of course it would be adapted in the same way the original manga was adapted, but Toriyama having the chance to work behind the scenes on the scripts in a format that goes much faster is a huge bonus I wouldn’t throw away.

If Toriyama could write up a very long script as he did for Broly, that would be a lot of material to adapt in a anime. Nagamine’s original storyboard for the movie was 3 hours long! That’s a lot of time, that could be even more if that was divided into single episodes, as it could turn out to be even around 12 or more episodes, with possibly room for Toriyama to write even more plot points because of no restrictions to make it a movie.
The anime DOESN’T have to make up their own dialogue to be honest: adapting an original script from Toriyama instead of an outline would already be plenty to make a full fledged arc and in that case it would be mostly up to the directors/storyboarders of the single episodes to convey the script, with the series director being the one handling how to divide the script into 20-24 minutes long episodes. This would also save time for the writers, who would probably have a marginal role if they would have any role at all.
If this thing is possible, that would be dope in my opinion.
What you suggest is not possible. Toriyama is not an anime director, he's a mangaka. You need not look any further into GT and Super to see the extent of his involvement. Character designs. Plot outlines. Producing a movie =/= producing an anime, the time schedule is far different. They had two years to make an 1.5 hr-long film. There's a payoff and cooldown period. A weekly anime isn't the same.

He can write a story. And that would be it. There is nothing to suggest that he would check the script for each and every episode, because that's just nitpicky and unnecessary. Nothing to suggest he would write the dialogue for each and every episode, because there are people who already do that for a living. What you suggest he does is the job for multiple people, not one in anime production.

Lastly, Toriyama is only human. If you think that he can be involved to that extent while still going working with Toyotarou and going over Toyotarou's drafts, then you must think he is some kind of Superman who doesn't need any sleep.

Toei was under no pre-production pressure or mayhem during the later stages of DBS, and they still couldn't decide on how strong the characters were supposed to be relative to each other.

If waiting for quality DB is your biggest pet peeve, then this is where we reach an impasse.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:05 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
IM21 wrote:I wouldnt be surprised if Meerus is a bad guy and he helped Moro to escape. Toriyama likes to give us villains in pairs.
Agreed. But if this really is a Toyo original, maybe it really is just Moro. But i still doubt that.
Meerus is fishy at vegetas eyes , the Way he moves is “magical” somehow. I won’t be surprised if Moro already took over meerus mind .. or they are the same person ...... I doubt the cabra will act alone further on .. its beeen just a chapter and a half of this arc . There’s a trap in the air
My thoughts about filller or anime adaptation.... not a filler ..and why not adapt this arc into a seasonal 6 months anime ...
Will be great if the arc is around 10 chapters more and manga finale coincide with anime finale .
Of course some plot twist are needed , it’s just the beginning. This as a filler with just a couple of chapters more and that’s it .. will be a very disappointed thing to happen I,m,o
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:13 pm

What stifles some of the believability of Merus's flanking tactic is that he went to the trouble of offering an explanatory apology to Vegeta before using the stun gun. If he had simply incapacitated Vegeta before offering his condolences then that would be one thing. Currently, any rationalisation for Merus's speed feat is marred to an extent, I think.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by divad86 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:57 pm

I could be completely wrong about this and if someone already posted about it, my bad. But I think we find out that Moro is an ex God of Destruction, maybe even the guy that Beerus replaced. I'm just getting that vibe and I can't explain it. It could have been when he destroyed planets and then absorbed the planet's energy. I just see that the robe he's wearing could be hiding his old God of Destruction outfit. Beerus could confront him and we could finally see him fight at full strength. Beerus will probably lose because he hasn't mastered UI but Moro has and it ends up with Goku using UI and beating Moro. Anyway, that's just a theory I have and nothing really to back it up. It's just too early to tell.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Rakurai wrote:
emperior wrote: Super’s writing problems, in the anime, can probably be solved by having an head writer and Toriyama having more time to check the scripts, and by having the writers coordinate better. I think that can be fixed with better planning and more pre-production for a new show.
Having to wait for Toyotaro’s manga is out of the options, in my opinion, as the manga is monthly, and thus slower, and it’s not even very popular to begin with.
If that was a weekly continuation by Toriyama, then of course it would be adapted in the same way the original manga was adapted, but Toriyama having the chance to work behind the scenes on the scripts in a format that goes much faster is a huge bonus I wouldn’t throw away.

If Toriyama could write up a very long script as he did for Broly, that would be a lot of material to adapt in a anime. Nagamine’s original storyboard for the movie was 3 hours long! That’s a lot of time, that could be even more if that was divided into single episodes, as it could turn out to be even around 12 or more episodes, with possibly room for Toriyama to write even more plot points because of no restrictions to make it a movie.
The anime DOESN’T have to make up their own dialogue to be honest: adapting an original script from Toriyama instead of an outline would already be plenty to make a full fledged arc and in that case it would be mostly up to the directors/storyboarders of the single episodes to convey the script, with the series director being the one handling how to divide the script into 20-24 minutes long episodes. This would also save time for the writers, who would probably have a marginal role if they would have any role at all.
If this thing is possible, that would be dope in my opinion.
What you suggest is not possible. Toriyama is not an anime director, he's a mangaka. You need not look any further into GT and Super to see the extent of his involvement. Character designs. Plot outlines. Producing a movie =/= producing an anime, the time schedule is far different. They had two years to make an 1.5 hr-long film. There's a payoff and cooldown period. A weekly anime isn't the same.

He can write a story. And that would be it. There is nothing to suggest that he would check the script for each and every episode, because that's just nitpicky and unnecessary. Nothing to suggest he would write the dialogue for each and every episode, because there are people who already do that for a living. What you suggest he does is the job for multiple people, not one in anime production.

Lastly, Toriyama is only human. If you think that he can be involved to that extent while still going working with Toyotarou and going over Toyotarou's drafts, then you must think he is some kind of Superman who doesn't need any sleep.

Toei was under no pre-production pressure or mayhem during the later stages of DBS, and they still couldn't decide on how strong the characters were supposed to be relative to each other.

If waiting for quality DB is your biggest pet peeve, then this is where we reach an impasse.
I am not saying Toriyama would do the job of an entire staff. But if, instead of writing barebones plot outlines, he could write an entire script like he does for movies, then that would probably make the stories far more consistent, while the writers of the show would probably just need to add some dialogue and stuff depending on the planning etcetera.
I don’t think it took Toriyama 1 year to write the script for Broly’s movie. Actually it seems like it took him just a few months, and he ended up making it even too long for a movie.
If, for example, they decide to retell the Broly movie, they would probably just need to divide the original script in 20-24 minutes-long episodes, hardly changing anything of it. That would be nicer than having to adapt napkin notes, wouldn’t it?
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