"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:45 pm

superfan2024 wrote:Honestly, to all of you still complaining about Merus being fast enough to appear behind Vegeta, at this point we're just going to have to except SSG and SSB to be "put down" in order for new powerful characters to even stand a chance. Just how SSJ was once an incredible thing and how now its just a transformation with some power, we're going to have to expect God and Blue to have the same fate. I mean, Broly caught up to Goku and Vegeta in less than an hour.
Geekdom had an interesting theory that Merus is likely connected to Moro in some way. He may be deceiving everyone. Whatever the case, this is fine as long as the plot is addressing it and not sweeping it under the rug when this guy could clearly pose a threat to Frieza back on Namek. Hopefully we get a good reason, either way.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:02 pm

Moro seems pretty scary. Being able to extract life energy from planets is ridiculous. I'm looking forward to this arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:23 pm

Loved the chapter as expected. Having Toriyama and Toyotaro writing the story is good. I'm glad we aren't just getting a repeat of the same characters from the past or a readaptation of movie characters like Broly, but a completely new story arc. This chapter even confirmed events in the timeline. Other than the Daizenshuu 7, there was no timeline that showed that Buu was sealed 5 million years ago. Hence, it's consistent with the fact that Moro would be 10 million years before. It's also cool that the Dai Kaioshin had to give up his god ki to take away Moro's magic. Moro's ability to absorb all the Genki from a planet and eat it reminds me of the Tree of Might. I also have a feeling that Moro will be defeated by Goku using his own ability to gather Genki but this time, absorbing it from within Moro, weakening him. Goku did something similar to defeat Turles as the planet's Genki was drained, so Goku instead took the genki from the Tree of Might. If there's a tug of war between who the Genki would go to, it may ultimately be based on the pure heart of Goku. Also, as strong as Moro is currently, I still don't think he is stronger than Beerus. However, after absorbing enough genki from planets, he might be. Though given there are only 28 planets with mortal life, not sure he'd get that much stronger. He already sucked about 320 planets which btw helps why there are only 28 left with mortal life.

As for Merus, as soon as Vegeta lost sight of him, is the time when Merus removed that engine part from the ship. This is after he contacted Jaco. His speed and dexterity are no joke. Again, I'm happy that a character is being written that uses his brain rather than strength. People are probably still going to be salty that a stun gun took out both Goku and Vegeta. However, we've already seen Frost take out Goku with poison before. Whis has already stated that when they are empty on ki or off-guard, they can be vulnerable to anything. It's not even a retcon. The concept of ki has been prevalent since the start of DB. Toriyama even explained it in his own interview.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:58 pm

divad86 wrote:I could be completely wrong about this and if someone already posted about it, my bad. But I think we find out that Moro is an ex God of Destruction, maybe even the guy that Beerus replaced. I'm just getting that vibe and I can't explain it. It could have been when he destroyed planets and then absorbed the planet's energy. I just see that the robe he's wearing could be hiding his old God of Destruction outfit. Beerus could confront him and we could finally see him fight at full strength. Beerus will probably lose because he hasn't mastered UI but Moro has and it ends up with Goku using UI and beating Moro. Anyway, that's just a theory I have and nothing really to back it up. It's just too early to tell.
Let's do that except replace Goku with Vegeta lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:43 am

Rakurai wrote: As for reusing same poses, angles, etc., I'm pretty sick and tired of people treating Toyotarou like he's committing a serious breach of artistic integrity among mangaka. Even the best mangaka of modern times do this to save time and meet deadlines, and he does it sparsely enough. I read One Piece and you can tell even Oda likes to recycle certain poses, angles, and battle choreography from chapter to chapter. The difference is that Toyotarou has like a 45-page chapter so ofc it's going to feel like you've seen it recently on a per-chapter-basis instead of a per-page-basis.
Right sir !
On the line of a weekly 16 pages vs a monthly 45 pages .. chapters usually contains some action that somehow “stands alone” with the nature of the principles of an episodic series (intro-dev-end) .. that factor makes DBS Manga to have a slower pace than a regular weekly series if the story is going to be animated. I’m fine with that , but that’s one of the reasons anime in DBS Manga can catch up faster than usual, because in reality the page counting is not that behind of a weekly like one piece , where every 2 months or so there’s a weekly chapter not available .
To be clear .. this last chapter page counting equals 3 weekly chapters , but I doubt it can be adapted into 3 anime episodes.
Weekly manga is a real test in all the senses ,preasure, fast story development etc , a totally different thing than a monthly.
There’s pros and cons in DBS Manga format , Don’t feel short but the wait for the next chapter is .... too much . I.m.o for an anime adaptation is a disadvantage and for manga volumes when reading all in a row is a bless.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:28 am

shadowfox87 wrote:Loved the chapter as expected. Having Toriyama and Toyotaro writing the story is good. I'm glad we aren't just getting a repeat of the same characters from the past or a readaptation of movie characters like Broly, but a completely new story arc. This chapter even confirmed events in the timeline. Other than the Daizenshuu 7, there was no timeline that showed that Buu was sealed 5 million years ago. Hence, it's consistent with the fact that Moro would be 10 million years before. It's also cool that the Dai Kaioshin had to give up his god ki to take away Moro's magic. Moro's ability to absorb all the Genki from a planet and eat it reminds me of the Tree of Might. I also have a feeling that Moro will be defeated by Goku using his own ability to gather Genki but this time, absorbing it from within Moro, weakening him. Goku did something similar to defeat Turles as the planet's Genki was drained, so Goku instead took the genki from the Tree of Might. If there's a tug of war between who the Genki would go to, it may ultimately be based on the pure heart of Goku. Also, as strong as Moro is currently, I still don't think he is stronger than Beerus. However, after absorbing enough genki from planets, he might be. Though given there are only 28 planets with mortal life, not sure he'd get that much stronger. He already sucked about 320 planets which btw helps why there are only 28 left with mortal life.

As for Merus, as soon as Vegeta lost sight of him, is the time when Merus removed that engine part from the ship. This is after he contacted Jaco. His speed and dexterity are no joke. Again, I'm happy that a character is being written that uses his brain rather than strength. People are probably still going to be salty that a stun gun took out both Goku and Vegeta. However, we've already seen Frost take out Goku with poison before. Whis has already stated that when they are empty on ki or off-guard, they can be vulnerable to anything. It's not even a retcon. The concept of ki has been prevalent since the start of DB. Toriyama even explained it in his own interview.
Sorry, but this is a huge false claim as well as a Dragon ball retcon. Enter Goku meets Bulma. Kid Goku has no idea of what or who Blulma is, let alone a firearm. Yet Bulma shoots a child Goku in the face, and Goku is mildly hurt. No ki amp. Goku from a very young age was always shown to have insane durability. They made him weak, to the point where a post SSG Goku in base got a boo-boo from a stray bullet. It's horse shit. For the record, I'm okay with a stun gun taking Goku out. I just feel like Goku, even in base, should be able to take a building collapsing on him and he ruffles his outfit from dust and he's totally fine.

Edit: Another example is when Goku opens the door in that one village, unsuspecting any danger and his head shatters a very sharp axe! He is, again, in pain with a comical cartoon bump on the head. It leads the viewers that this kid named Goku is obviously very durable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:05 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Loved the chapter as expected. Having Toriyama and Toyotaro writing the story is good. I'm glad we aren't just getting a repeat of the same characters from the past or a readaptation of movie characters like Broly, but a completely new story arc. This chapter even confirmed events in the timeline. Other than the Daizenshuu 7, there was no timeline that showed that Buu was sealed 5 million years ago. Hence, it's consistent with the fact that Moro would be 10 million years before. It's also cool that the Dai Kaioshin had to give up his god ki to take away Moro's magic. Moro's ability to absorb all the Genki from a planet and eat it reminds me of the Tree of Might. I also have a feeling that Moro will be defeated by Goku using his own ability to gather Genki but this time, absorbing it from within Moro, weakening him. Goku did something similar to defeat Turles as the planet's Genki was drained, so Goku instead took the genki from the Tree of Might. If there's a tug of war between who the Genki would go to, it may ultimately be based on the pure heart of Goku. Also, as strong as Moro is currently, I still don't think he is stronger than Beerus. However, after absorbing enough genki from planets, he might be. Though given there are only 28 planets with mortal life, not sure he'd get that much stronger. He already sucked about 320 planets which btw helps why there are only 28 left with mortal life.

As for Merus, as soon as Vegeta lost sight of him, is the time when Merus removed that engine part from the ship. This is after he contacted Jaco. His speed and dexterity are no joke. Again, I'm happy that a character is being written that uses his brain rather than strength. People are probably still going to be salty that a stun gun took out both Goku and Vegeta. However, we've already seen Frost take out Goku with poison before. Whis has already stated that when they are empty on ki or off-guard, they can be vulnerable to anything. It's not even a retcon. The concept of ki has been prevalent since the start of DB. Toriyama even explained it in his own interview.
Sorry, but this is a huge false claim as well as a Dragon ball retcon. Enter Goku meets Bulma. Kid Goku has no idea of what or who Blulma is, let alone a firearm. Yet Bulma shoots a child Goku in the face, and Goku is mildly hurt. No ki amp. Goku from a very young age was always shown to have insane durability. They made him weak, to the point where a post SSG Goku in base got a boo-boo from a stray bullet. It's horse shit. For the record, I'm okay with a stun gun taking Goku out. I just feel like Goku, even in base, should be able to take a building collapsing on him and he ruffles his outfit from dust and he's totally fine.

Edit: Another example is when Goku opens the door in that one village, unsuspecting any danger and his head shatters a very sharp axe! He is, again, in pain with a comical cartoon bump on the head. It leads the viewers that this kid named Goku is obviously very durable.
I get what you're saying but I think you really have to ignore Dragon Ball for evidence of these things. First off, Dragon Ball was written with a lot more comedy, especially physical comedy such as your examples above. Goku surviving the bullet is meant to tell the audience this ain't no ordinary kid we've got here in the quickest way possible. I'd love for this series to work as a whole more than anyone but it has a ton of inconsistencies.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:42 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:
HeroR wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.
It was Dragon Room's idea to bring Broly back. Toriyama just agreed to it. The only villain Toriyama brought back was Freeza.
I was talking about ROF.

As for bringing Broly back, that's just a part of the story. The other part is that Toriyama rejected Toei's ideas firstly and when they finally came to an agreement in making a movie about the Saiyans, they talked about Broly's popularity.
That's still bringing back an old villain.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:15 am

MUI Goku by Toyotaro at Jump Festa
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LimitbreakerKrillin » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:34 am

ssj3kakarot wrote: Sorry, but this is a huge false claim as well as a Dragon ball retcon. Enter Goku meets Bulma. Kid Goku has no idea of what or who Blulma is, let alone a firearm. Yet Bulma shoots a child Goku in the face, and Goku is mildly hurt. No ki amp. Goku from a very young age was always shown to have insane durability. They made him weak, to the point where a post SSG Goku in base got a boo-boo from a stray bullet. It's horse shit. For the record, I'm okay with a stun gun taking Goku out. I just feel like Goku, even in base, should be able to take a building collapsing on him and he ruffles his outfit from dust and he's totally fine.

Edit: Another example is when Goku opens the door in that one village, unsuspecting any danger and his head shatters a very sharp axe! He is, again, in pain with a comical cartoon bump on the head. It leads the viewers that this kid named Goku is obviously very durable.
One could argue that the technology for firearms in the DB universe has significant improved since the day Goku first met Bulma (How many years is that exactly?). I dont think its unreasonable for a gun in the current setting to be able to make a small scratch on a powered down adult Goku.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:17 am

emperior wrote: I am not saying Toriyama would do the job of an entire staff. But if, instead of writing barebones plot outlines, he could write an entire script like he does for movies, then that would probably make the stories far more consistent, while the writers of the show would probably just need to add some dialogue and stuff depending on the planning etcetera.
I don’t think it took Toriyama 1 year to write the script for Broly’s movie. Actually it seems like it took him just a few months, and he ended up making it even too long for a movie.
If, for example, they decide to retell the Broly movie, they would probably just need to divide the original script in 20-24 minutes-long episodes, hardly changing anything of it. That would be nicer than having to adapt napkin notes, wouldn’t it?
1. That's not what you were originally claiming for how involved Toriyama should be.

2. We don't know how long it takes Toriyama to finish the script. Anywhere from a few months to a year.

3. I would rather not have Toriyama writing DB entirely by himself. Unless I wanted more tournament arcs, arcs by fanservice (bringing back Frieza & Trunks when their stories already had a conclusion), or movie original rip-offs (Broly, Gogeta). The plot wasn't enough to carry on the latest Broly film, its only saving grace was the animation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:37 am

Rakurai wrote: 3. I would rather not have Toriyama writing DB entirely by himself. Unless I wanted more tournament arcs, arcs by fanservice (bringing back Frieza & Trunks when their stories already had a conclusion), or movie original rip-offs (Broly, Gogeta). The plot wasn't enough to carry on the latest Broly film, its only saving grace was the animation.
Toriyama left to his own devices came up with Resurrection F and, the two tournaments in Super.

Zamasu Arc, and DBS: Broly are things he wrote because Toei requested Trunks and Broly return respectively.

Battle of Gods happened because he took the bare-bone elements from a Toei script and completely re-did it.

So I think what you should be wanting is someone to suggest an idea to Toriyama and then have him flesh that out.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:04 pm

Rakurai wrote:The plot wasn't enough to carry on the latest Broly film, its only saving grace was the animation.
I'd rather avoid the Broly talk in non-movie threads until at least late January. That's not because I'm trying to backseat mod and say it's off-topic or anything, but more because there are so many of us English speakers who haven't seen it yet.

A later time might be more appropriate for broaching this subject, I think.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:19 pm

So hyped to have a new fresh arc in the manga, so happy they skipped broly .
About the movie I feel like When top arc manga was going on , knowing what mostly was about to happen on the plot just got my attention about some details and art .
That’s why this new arc feels like a whole new world for this franchise, I only had this feeling before in future trunks arc
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:07 pm

So why would they entrust the Galactic police with keeping tabs on and tracking down this guy but that have no involvement that we know of with Dabura, Bobbidi, or Buu? There’s a reason why we have multiple “reboots” of character universes in American comics.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:03 pm

TheMikado wrote:So why would they entrust the Galactic police with keeping tabs on and tracking down this guy but that have no involvement that we know of with Dabura, Bobbidi, or Buu? There’s a reason why we have multiple “reboots” of character universes in American comics.
Boo had been sealed for millions of years and the events of the Boo arc happened in the span of, what, one day?

Dabra was the king of the Demon World, so that one seems a bit out of their jurisdiction.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:08 pm

TheMikado wrote:So why would they entrust the Galactic police with keeping tabs on and tracking down this guy but that have no involvement that we know of with Dabura, Bobbidi, or Buu? There’s a reason why we have multiple “reboots” of character universes in American comics.
Jurisdictional supersedence? Issues concerning Babidi/Bibidi and Majin Buu were of a severity that it threatened the entirety of the universe and its afterlife -- the Kaioshins were forced to intervene, which is something that doesn't normally happen. Regarding Dabura, he's technically a trans-dimensional being from the Makai. Babidi obviously kept a low profile since Shin and Kibito knew nothing about him having enslaved the demon king. It was on the same day that they learned of Dabura's involvement that he was killed by Buu. Not much time to issue a warrant or request surveillance and information on someone.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:57 pm

TKA wrote:
Rakurai wrote: 3. I would rather not have Toriyama writing DB entirely by himself. Unless I wanted more tournament arcs, arcs by fanservice (bringing back Frieza & Trunks when their stories already had a conclusion), or movie original rip-offs (Broly, Gogeta). The plot wasn't enough to carry on the latest Broly film, its only saving grace was the animation.
Toriyama left to his own devices came up with Resurrection F and, the two tournaments in Super.

Zamasu Arc, and DBS: Broly are things he wrote because Toei requested Trunks and Broly return respectively.

Battle of Gods happened because he took the bare-bone elements from a Toei script and completely re-did it.

So I think what you should be wanting is someone to suggest an idea to Toriyama and then have him flesh that out.
Agreed. BTW, why are people assuming this arc is written by Toyotaro? Did I miss something? I don't remember...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:56 pm

TKA wrote:
Toriyama left to his own devices came up with Resurrection F and, the two tournaments in Super.

Zamasu Arc, and DBS: Broly are things he wrote because Toei requested Trunks and Broly return respectively.

Battle of Gods happened because he took the bare-bone elements from a Toei script and completely re-did it.

So I think what you should be wanting is someone to suggest an idea to Toriyama and then have him flesh that out.
I don't want him to flesh anything out either, because then we get Minus Bardock and DBS Broly both of whom I view as inferior to their original counterparts. My preferred approach would be that he provides feedback to stories created by Toyotarou and let him continue the story. Let an actual DB fan-mangaka with considerable experience understanding the world which he's drawing & exploring so that his story doesn't become a further inconsistent mess.
Miracles wrote: Agreed. BTW, why are people assuming this arc is written by Toyotaro? Did I miss something? I don't remember...
Rakurai wrote:Reminder: Toyotarou is teaming up with Toriyama on the story and getting a lot of praise as he's making it. Sounds like it's mainly Toyotarou's ideas coming to fruition, but we don't know how much input Toriyama has on the story/lore either.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1068740797263036416

Regardless, credit should be given to both but now we can assume Toyotarou taking a role in developing the story instead of adapting it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:38 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote: Sorry, but this is a huge false claim as well as a Dragon ball retcon. Enter Goku meets Bulma. Kid Goku has no idea of what or who Bulma is, let alone a firearm. Yet Bulma shoots a child Goku in the face, and Goku is mildly hurt. No ki amp. Goku from a very young age was always shown to have insane durability. They made him weak, to the point where a post SSG Goku in base got a boo-boo from a stray bullet. It's horse shit. For the record, I'm okay with a stun gun taking Goku out. I just feel like Goku, even in base, should be able to take a building collapsing on him and he ruffles his outfit from dust and he's totally fine.

Edit: Another example is when Goku opens the door in that one village, unsuspecting any danger and his head shatters a very sharp axe! He is, again, in pain with a comical cartoon bump on the head. It leads the viewers that this kid named Goku is obviously very durable.
Yes Goku got shot by Bulma point-blank when his power level was only 10. So it means 10 is enough to take a bullet. He got shot again by General White on the back of his head and then a sniper hit him on his neck later during the Red Ribbon Army arc. Hell, Piccolo Daimou was throwing rocks at goku using just his breath. At that time, Goku had no concept what ki is. He's not suppressing himself. He didn't learn ki control until after his training with Mr. Popo and Kami. Then later, he met Vegeta and Freeza who had no idea how to suppress ki. In the original DB manga, Vegeta himself literally states that he will lower his ki to allow Krillin to blast a hole through him so that Dende can heal him and get a zenkai. Even if you take DBS out of the equation, there are examples of ki suppression in the DB manga. Then compound this with what Toriyama already stated in his interview 20 years ago, it's not a retcon. And this is the point that fans don't understand and get salty because they keep showing post BoG Goku getting hurt by bullets or being taken out by stun guns. There's a reason why Goku can hold chopsticks without breaking them; how Whis can grab the wings of a bee without crushing it. Goku getting hit by Sorbet's laser in the anime occurred in his base while in the movie, it occurred when he was in SSB. The latter makes absolutely no sense but the former does since it clearly shows he powered down. Goku had to suppress himself when fighting regular human thugs otherwise he'd kill them just by tapping on them. Tao Pai Pai afterall killed General Blue with just his tongue. The same goes for Jiren vs Roshi which again is a salty subject for many fans. One karate chop by Jiren should be enough to kill Roshi yet, it was enough to only ring him out. The concept of ki control is internally consistent throughout DB.
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DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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