"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SaiyanGod117
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:06 am

You have it all skewed, while Goku can suppress himself and lower his defences, however, no matter how much he does it, he can't go below his natural/biological durability it's just impossible. In which is the reason why instances of him getting hurt by a bullet, rock, or taser is inconsistent bullshit. Clearly, the reason why Goku was able to tank bullets as a child is because of his Saiyan physiology which gives superior durability to that of a human. In the same manner, that a Galatic Patrolman extinction bomb can wipe out an entire species yet is incapable of killing a newborn Saiyan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:09 am

nato25 wrote: I get what you're saying but I think you really have to ignore Dragon Ball for evidence of these things. First off, Dragon Ball was written with a lot more comedy, especially physical comedy such as your examples above. Goku surviving the bullet is meant to tell the audience this ain't no ordinary kid we've got here in the quickest way possible. I'd love for this series to work as a whole more than anyone but it has a ton of inconsistencies.
This is the most correct answer.

Early DB was meant to be an martial arts comedy adventure type of mix. Not a power level, planet busting fest like Z/GT/Super is. Kid Goku's endurance feats were meant to be humorous and exaggerated for the sake of comedic effect.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:17 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:You have it all skewed, while Goku can suppress himself and lower his defences, however, no matter how much he does it, he can't go below his natural/biological durability it's just impossible. In which is the reason why instances of getting hurt by a bullet, rock, or taser is inconsistent bullshit. Clearly, the reason why Goku was able to tank bullets as a child is because of his Saiyan physiology which gives superior durability to that of a human. In the same manner, that a Galatic Patrolman extinction bomb can wipe out an entire species yet is incapable of killing a newborn Saiyan.
His natural biological durability as a kid shows he still gets hurt by ordinary bullets. He may tank the bullet but he still gets hurt by it. I literally gave you examples from the DB manga in support of that. Whis literally states this in the manga. As for the Galactic Extinction bomb, yes it states it is powerful enough to eradicate the human species but not Freeza. They don't use it arbitrarily as that can be genocide. Jaco got reprimanded for using it last time. Using it on Saiyan babies would be unethical.
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DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:33 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:You have it all skewed, while Goku can suppress himself and lower his defences, however, no matter how much he does it, he can't go below his natural/biological durability it's just impossible. In which is the reason why instances of getting hurt by a bullet, rock, or taser is inconsistent bullshit. Clearly, the reason why Goku was able to tank bullets as a child is because of his Saiyan physiology which gives superior durability to that of a human. In the same manner, that a Galatic Patrolman extinction bomb can wipe out an entire species yet is incapable of killing a newborn Saiyan.
His natural biological durability as a kid shows he still gets hurt by ordinary bullets. He may tank the bullet but he still gets hurt by it. I literally gave you examples from the DB manga in support of that. Whis literally states this in the manga. As for the Galactic Extinction bomb, yes it states it is powerful enough to eradicate the human species but not Freeza. They don't use it arbitrarily as that can be genocide. Jaco got reprimanded for using it last time. Using it on Saiyan babies would be unethical.
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I think that's why the bullet doesn't bug me, when he was taking on the robbers, he was cocky and relaxed becuase he knew they were not a threat. So in his cockyness, he missed seeing a bullet which at least scratched him. He was relaxed in that situation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:38 am

New toyo drawing I think , looks awesome all goku forms
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It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:49 am

Rakurai wrote: I don't want him to flesh anything out either, because then we get Minus Bardock and DBS Broly both of whom I view as inferior to their original counterparts.
Well the Broly movie isn't even out in English yet. If you looked up spoilers, I don't know how you could possibly think Koyama's screaming manchild without character has any kind of artistic merit to it.

Bardock I'll give you. Minus with it's 8 or so pages of Bardock could never stack up to the original animated special. I have many gripes with that special, but it is better than the Minus chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:18 am

His natural biological durability as a kid shows he still gets hurt by ordinary bullets. He may tank the bullet but he still gets hurt by it.
However, that's when he was a kid though and while he may have screamed out "owww" or "that hurt" it never left any visible injury ever. A clear example of this is when he tanked sniper fire to his cheek; moreover, this is all before his subsequent traning and power boost from teacher and items such as Popo, Kami, and the mystic water all throughout DB. In addition, to say he still has the same durability he had as a kid till now, would be absurd considering all he's been threw, not only that you would be ignoring the overt fact that his body wasn't even fully matured yet. All things considered, even if he didn't train another day in his life his natural durability would still increase due to maturation. Above all, he was able to tank reentry level heat without a scratch while unconscious and that produces way more energy than a bullet.
. I literally gave you examples from the DB manga in support of that. Whis literally states this in the manga.
Your example didn't prove anything neither does this example, it's clear enough that without Ki characters in DB would be defenseless. However, Whis is talking about in the perspectives of a serious or deadly fight where fighters are blasting off their most powerful attacks, not against trivial attacks such as a bullet or taser.
As for the Galactic Extinction bomb, yes it states it is powerful enough to eradicate the human species but not Freeza. They don't use it arbitrarily as that can be genocide. Jaco got reprimanded for using it last time. Using it on Saiyan babies would be unethical
Incorrect:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

What was the Galactic Patrol doing when Raditz and then Vegeta were attacking Earth?

Akira: Even though they're called the Galactic Patrol, they only stand a chance against Saiyans when they;re children, and the Extinction Bomb doesn't work on them. Naturally, they have no choice but to turn a blind eye to people like Freeza.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:29 am

Rakurai wrote:This is the most correct answer.

Early DB was meant to be an martial arts comedy adventure type of mix. Not a power level, planet busting fest like Z/GT/Super is. Kid Goku's endurance feats were meant to be humorous and exaggerated for the sake of comedic effect.
To be fair, during muscle tower arc Goku is injured by a revolver, and he was turned around and wasn't expecting to be injured like that, and the guy specificaly pointed out it was a stronger than usual revolver, so while his toughness was played for laughs, it was also there in serious moments (The revolver fucked him up, but he was still alive, and had no serious injuries after all), and fact that the characters constantly comment on how much Goku can tank attacks even when it's comedic shows that it's not just a gag.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:55 am

Chapter 42 is really great, I feel it fixes most of my concerns with Android 17 in this arc. The artwork was superb, Toyo is starting to get much better. I really love the characterization of everyone in this, it feels a lot better.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:06 am

So what is happening currently on earth? Did Mr. Satan inform anyone that Goku and Vegeta were kidnapped?
Will they even search for Goku and Vegeta?
One solution for this would be later down the road to state that Jaco informed Bulma of the situation...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:16 pm

TKA wrote:
Rakurai wrote: I don't want him to flesh anything out either, because then we get Minus Bardock and DBS Broly both of whom I view as inferior to their original counterparts.
Well the Broly movie isn't even out in English yet. If you looked up spoilers, I don't know how you could possibly think Koyama's screaming manchild without character has any kind of artistic merit to it.

Bardock I'll give you. Minus with it's 8 or so pages of Bardock could never stack up to the original animated special. I have many gripes with that special, but it is better than the Minus chapter.
I watched the LA premiere of the Broly film. So I am entitled to make a fully informed comparison, English-dubbed at the very least.
Lukmendes wrote:
Rakurai wrote:This is the most correct answer.

Early DB was meant to be an martial arts comedy adventure type of mix. Not a power level, planet busting fest like Z/GT/Super is. Kid Goku's endurance feats were meant to be humorous and exaggerated for the sake of comedic effect.
To be fair, during muscle tower arc Goku is injured by a revolver, and he was turned around and wasn't expecting to be injured like that, and the guy specificaly pointed out it was a stronger than usual revolver, so while his toughness was played for laughs, it was also there in serious moments (The revolver fucked him up, but he was still alive, and had no serious injuries after all), and fact that the characters constantly comment on how much Goku can tank attacks even when it's comedic shows that it's not just a gag.
Very true, and adult Goku to this day still suffers no serious injuries from bullets & normal physical weapons either. But he's not invincible and his endurance doesn't scale with age, because now we're now at a setting where the fighting is heavily focused on ki-based techniques, that dropping your guard as such can and does lead to greater injury.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:30 pm

The point is he shouldn't be hurt by bullets period, it's just bad writing.
I get what you're saying but I think you really have to ignore Dragon Ball for evidence of these things. First off, Dragon Ball was written with a lot more comedy, especially physical comedy such as your examples above. Goku surviving the bullet is meant to tell the audience this ain't no ordinary kid we've got here in the quickest way possible. I'd love for this series to work as a whole more than anyone but it has a ton of inconsistencies.
By and large, this is the most absurd answer as he's essentially saying ignore a quarter of the series because it's comedy, that makes no sense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:34 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:The point is he shouldn't be hurt by bullets period, it's just bad writing.
I get what you're saying but I think you really have to ignore Dragon Ball for evidence of these things. First off, Dragon Ball was written with a lot more comedy, especially physical comedy such as your examples above. Goku surviving the bullet is meant to tell the audience this ain't no ordinary kid we've got here in the quickest way possible. I'd love for this series to work as a whole more than anyone but it has a ton of inconsistencies.
By and large, this is the most absurd answer as he's essentially saying ignore a quarter of the series because it's comedy, that makes no sense.
The Rakurai/Lukmendes exchange answered this in the best possible way. I still think its a retcon that the characters are so much less durable without a ki aura, but it does make sense that high caliber ballistics can scratch their skin. They just can't be killed by these things, at least Goku can't. Krillin took bullets to the face before too, but maybe the caliber of Lunch's machine gun was low and even then he was visibly marked by the shots.

To summarize, I think the Z-fighters, from Chiaotzu to Goku can be marked and scratched by bullets when their guard is down, but I think they are at least durable enough that anything other than an armor piercing round can't kill them. Humans might actually be slightly less durable than that. Lasers like the one Sorbet had are even stronger and can burn through flesh easily.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:34 pm

That's makes no sense whatsoever, to illustrate, in his comic runs Batman is often seriously challenged by the likes Penguin, Joker, Solomon Grundy, or Two Face. However, once in a while a writer may pull some nonsense and all of the sudden make him a physical challenge to Superman. An even more horrendous example of this is would be when Catwoman managed to react and take down 3 flashes.
When nothing prior shows she's even capable of that, so it's easy to asses we're presented with a case of inconsistent writing rather than some untold retcon. Especially, if it's in the hands of a inconsistent writer which in Super's case it is, evidently which is all the more to point to inconsistent writing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:54 pm

So how exactly are we supposed to reconcile the events with RoF with the manga? In the manga, we are supposed to follow the events of the RoF movie. And in the movie, Goku had "Saiyan Beyond God", that was stronger than SSG, according to all the promotional material, it had God Ki, and it apparently was going to invalidate the normal SSJ forms. But in the manga, Freeza is still impressed with SSJ Caulifla being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku, and Goku treating Trunks surpassing SSJ2 Gohan as a big deal, Goku clearly doesn't have God Ki in Base, the normal SSJ forms still appear, and it just doesn't fit.

Not trying to complain about the manga. I'm just confused/curious about the matter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:57 pm

Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing anymore sadly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:03 pm

PFM18 wrote:So how exactly are we supposed to reconcile the events with RoF with the manga? In the manga, we are supposed to follow the events of the RoF movie. And in the movie, Goku had "Saiyan Beyond God", that was stronger than SSG, according to all the promotional material, it had God Ki, and it apparently was going to invalidate the normal SSJ forms. But in the manga, Freeza is still impressed with SSJ Caulifla being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku, and Goku treating Trunks surpassing SSJ2 Gohan as a big deal, Goku clearly doesn't have God Ki in Base, the normal SSJ forms still appear, and it just doesn't fit.

Not trying to complain about the manga. I'm just confused/curious about the matter.
Assume the same as the movie but Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight base Freeza. That's my headcanon. Final form Freeza is clearly stronger than the base Saiyans in the Super manga considering he can hold his own against SS Caulifla.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:22 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:So how exactly are we supposed to reconcile the events with RoF with the manga? In the manga, we are supposed to follow the events of the RoF movie. And in the movie, Goku had "Saiyan Beyond God", that was stronger than SSG, according to all the promotional material, it had God Ki, and it apparently was going to invalidate the normal SSJ forms. But in the manga, Freeza is still impressed with SSJ Caulifla being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku, and Goku treating Trunks surpassing SSJ2 Gohan as a big deal, Goku clearly doesn't have God Ki in Base, the normal SSJ forms still appear, and it just doesn't fit.

Not trying to complain about the manga. I'm just confused/curious about the matter.
Assume the same as the movie but Goku goes Super Saiyan to fight base Freeza. That's my headcanon. Final form Freeza is clearly stronger than the base Saiyans in the Super manga considering he can hold his own against SS Caulifla.
That actually fills some holes pretty well. But then what about the movie stating that Goku and Vegeta working together could beat Beerus? That was taken out of the anime retelling, and it's clearly not the case in the manga because Vegeta achieves CSSB which is way better than SSB, and yet he's one shot by Beerus and Beerus says he needs something like a million years of training to compete with him.

And in the movie I believe they say Freeza is stronger than Buu or something along the lines of Freeza being the highest ki they have felt, which would be too much for SSJ Goku withiout any God absorption shenanigans that were in the anime continuity. (I'm not really positive on this so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was implied this iteration of Freeza was stronger than Buu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:22 pm

Rakurai wrote:
TKA wrote:
Toriyama left to his own devices came up with Resurrection F and, the two tournaments in Super.

Zamasu Arc, and DBS: Broly are things he wrote because Toei requested Trunks and Broly return respectively.

Battle of Gods happened because he took the bare-bone elements from a Toei script and completely re-did it.

So I think what you should be wanting is someone to suggest an idea to Toriyama and then have him flesh that out.
I don't want him to flesh anything out either, because then we get Minus Bardock and DBS Broly both of whom I view as inferior to their original counterparts. My preferred approach would be that he provides feedback to stories created by Toyotarou and let him continue the story. Let an actual DB fan-mangaka with considerable experience understanding the world which he's drawing & exploring so that his story doesn't become a further inconsistent mess.
Miracles wrote: Agreed. BTW, why are people assuming this arc is written by Toyotaro? Did I miss something? I don't remember...
Rakurai wrote:Reminder: Toyotarou is teaming up with Toriyama on the story and getting a lot of praise as he's making it. Sounds like it's mainly Toyotarou's ideas coming to fruition, but we don't know how much input Toriyama has on the story/lore either.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1068740797263036416

Regardless, credit should be given to both but now we can assume Toyotarou taking a role in developing the story instead of adapting it.
I see. Thanks for the comment. Nothing in there stating that Toyotaro is writing it by himself.
He is teaming up with Toriayma to do it. Did he come up with the original idea of the entire plot? That is unknown.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:48 pm

I was going to post my thought's about the ToP arc but I'll wait until I re-read the manga. The Zamasu Arc improved greatly read without monthly intervals, I expect the same to happen here.

About the current arc, a villain using magic is certainly interesting and refreshing. What we had so far has quite a bit of potential but let's see how the story develops. Not much to say currently.

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