"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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alakazam^
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Re: Now That's Some Magic Power!!!!!

Post by alakazam^ » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:23 am

Son Dragon wrote:Also on a side note I thinking it might be time for Goku to learn how to use magic. In the original dragon ball the narrator mentioned how the Kamehameha was like a type magic attack however it never went anywhere in long run and became Ki instead. Still I wonder what the creaters have plannned.
The original text doesn't mention magic, though.

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Re: Now That's Some Magic Power!!!!!

Post by Son Dragon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:47 am

alakazam^ wrote:
Son Dragon wrote:Also on a side note I thinking it might be time for Goku to learn how to use magic. In the original dragon ball the narrator mentioned how the Kamehameha was like a type magic attack however it never went anywhere in long run and became Ki instead. Still I wonder what the creaters have plannned.
The original text doesn't mention magic, though.

Image

Look at the image, it's inside the narration box. Are you talking about the Japanese version?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:04 am

Shaddy wrote:
I don't really care all that much if what I'm reading isn't enjoyable. Being able to explain why it was boring and lame doesn't make it not boring and lame.
The way the panels are laid out makes it boring and lame for you? Then you must have some very specific tastes.

Art theory is just that. These are the aesthetics people have observed in art and have determined that these are the aesthetics that people find most attractive. Now, a film doesn't have to have dynamic and creative, next-level Tarantino directing to be good. There's plenty of other more basic directors out there that use more basic shots and those don't really take away from their work. Sure, people would appreciate the added camera-work you typically see in Tarantino movies, but that absence doesn't take away from more "basic" film structure.

That is to say, the layout of Toyotaro's paneling doesn't at all impact how I view the plot, the themes, or the character interactions. Do I wish he could cut back on the dialogue? Yes. Does it affect my enjoyment of his work? No, not really.

Also, if you're going to be talking about Toyotaro's skill, you can't just go "I don't care about the examples or explanations of why the Super manga is the way it is right now, all I care about is that he sucks". Because let's not forget that this is what this is about. You're saying he's inept at construction, when much of his previous work shows that this is not at all his norm.
If that's what he had to do he should have taken a different approach to how he spaced out the arc's important moments from the start, and condensed it to only what matters. If he knew this stuff from the start, he should have compensated for it.
That changes nothing. He's utilized what he was given incredibly poorly. You could only debatably make a case for him somehow not knowing how few chapters he would have until it was too late, but that would be represented by a less-even structure. Every chapter is about as bad about this stuff as the next, at least it has been recently.
The arc is already condensed to only what matters. Or did you miss the countless complaints about how he's "rushing"? The manga's tournament of power is as lean as it can be while still maintaining its narrative weight.

The only thing executed poorly in the Tournament of Power was Gohan vs Kafla, and that's because most of it happened offscreen despite the previous chapter ending teasing it. Everything else was done immaculately.

But you all but said you don't care that he's under constraints that Toriyama himself wasn't under when making the original manga, so there's really no point in explaining any of this to you.
This isn't that conversation.
Bruh, I know that my replies can be lengthy, but I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that I was talking about something from 4 months ago. You said you don't believe me that other people brought TNM into this thread as a way of strengthening their own arguments. I then presented you with the evidence that that's exactly how he was first introduced to this thread.
I'm talking about now, where I offhandedly mentioned a point that happened to align with the video (not even mentioning the video itself, mind you), and then you two replied as if I'd linked to it with no further elaboration.
No, hermano. We explained why the video was terrible while also explaining to you why we disagree with your points. It's not hard to do both at the same time.

The message you should be taking from this is "Don't try to use a youtuber to justify/strengthen your arguments." TNM's video is full of ill-conceived notions and ill-reasoned conclusions. He has no weight, and I'd rather not have to watch an entire video to see what you're talking about. You have a point? State that point and leave that video in your watch history.
Well that would put into frame the subjective idea of how much something need be altered before it can be tied to the person who made the change and judged as an "improvement", wouldn't it? Does a fanmade patch to a game to fix a bug not improve the experience for the player? Is that "insult" to the devs who overlooked it really important? The video is criticism, the same as my posts are criticism. All criticism is inherently linked to the idea that the person giving it would have done things differently from the creator of the thing they're criticizing.


A fanmade patch is nothing. Now if that fan made his patch and then declared "I made a better game than Bethesda!" then that's something. That's what we're talking about here. TNM, in his video, said his changes improved what Toyotaro did. That isn't criticism. It's sycophantic self-aggrandization masquerading as something worthwhile.

"Hey, I don't like what you made because it isn't the way I would've done it" is a shitty way to look at things actual creative people have created. Criticism is about taking the art as it is, seeing what the author/director/mangaka wanted to do, and then explaining if they accomplished it.

If we "criticize" things in the way you claim, then you'd have critics rewriting Lolita and taking out all the creepy stuff and passing that off as better than the original. It's nonsense. Your job is to consume, not to edit. As a consumer, your only choice is deciding if you want to consume or not; it is not your place to tell the writer how to do his job.
Creators do not make things for nobody. If art is only supposed to be perceived as good or bad by it's creator, then it should never be shared with anyone else. When Toyotaro writes his manga for people to pay money for and experience, they are 100% entitled to form their own opinion and contribute the ways they think it should have been done if they don't like it.
If you're just going to hide behind "oh but he worked so hard you just don't understand" you can dispel anything. And if that's what you're doing then I'm really not going to fucking bother. I don't need to be a chef to know if the burger I ordered has mayonnaise that I didn't ask for, and I am 100% allowed to "improve" the meal by removing it, or ordering a new burger entirely. I draw stuff all the time, is that the only prerequisite? "You must be this tall for your opinion to be valid"?
No, man. You're not reading. I said creators, in the framework of what they created, are unassailable. Whatever you do to their work cannot be better than what they created. You cannot improve on what they've done. If you want to, go make your own thing.

This is not all me saying you don't have the right to critique things. Go fucking nuts and critique everything you want to, my man. Don't let anybody ever tell you you can't do that. What I'm saying is, when you go and start editing a creator's work and going "Durr hurrr, I made it better than he did lol!" is when you've gone too far and are no longer critiquing.

Let me make this as simple as can be.

I draw a circle. I say it's a circle. It's clearly a square. You tell me it's not a circle. That is criticism.

I draw a circle. I say it's a circle. It's clearly a square. You take the pencil from me and start changing it. That isn't criticism.
If you're just going to hide behind "oh but he worked so hard you just don't understand" you can dispel anything. And if that's what you're doing then I'm really not going to fucking bother. I don't need to be a chef to know if the burger I ordered has mayonnaise that I didn't ask for, and I am 100% allowed to "improve" the meal by removing it, or ordering a new burger entirely. I draw stuff all the time, is that the only prerequisite? "You must be this tall for your opinion to be valid"?
I didn't lump this in with the above quote because there's a lot of troubling misunderstandings you have here. If not misunderstandings, then a lot of troubling beliefs.

In the burger scenario, you have every right to edit it since you purchased it. It's yours now. You add mayonnaise to it. Can you then say you've made a burger better than the burger the chef made? You can, but you'd sound pretty dumb to say that considering everything else that went into making the burger: all you did was add mayonnaise to it. Can you say the burger is better with mayonnaise? Maybe to you, but what if that chef specifically chose to not use mayonnaise on his menu because he feels the lack of it enhances the other flavors? At that point, you've fundamentally changed what the thing is from what the creator intended. You missed the damn point.

And no, I don't care if you're Vincent van Gogh, you don't have the right to edit other people's work and then claim you're improving it or making it better. You're doing the equivalent of Squidward putting a fake nose on a piece of art and claiming it better than what the original artist intended.
I'm pretty sure most creators would appreciate something like this because it's a very cleanly-presented representation of an issue many people have with the story. You don't have to agree with it, but saying it doesn't have a right to exist is basically disagreeing with the concept of criticism.
No, I can assure you that most professionals don't like when youtubers, twitterites or tumblrers take the work they've given years of their lives to make and then edit it and claim they've improved it or done it better. Criticism is something every professional embraces, since it tells them what elements were missing from their work to do what they intended it to do. "Improving" on their work is shitty because it's basically saying they're incompetent at their jobs, the youtuber/whatever knows better than them and that whatever they missed was so obvious that some jackass with no credits under his/her belt could fix it.

I don't get what about this is so hard to understand. You're not making anything. You don't know what goes into making the thing. You have zero idea of what constraints he has. So I ask, who the fuck are you to edit his work and then claim you're improving it?
It's boring because it's not elaborating on anything interesting or important,
Elaborating? It's only been 2 goddamn chapters. Now isn't the time to elaborate or explain. Now is the time to set shit up. It isn't doing a good job at what Dragonball has always been good at: being unpredictable. By this point, there should've been a lot more going on, instead we spent the chapter before this one one a stupid train heist.
By all means, never attempting to flesh the story out into something more meaningful has been Toyo's problem since day one
Absolute nonsense.

Let's look at Jiren, who is flat as carboard in the anime.

He's introduced in the manga as separate from his team, and he showed up to bail them out and was about to leave until Vermoud made him an interesting offer. He knew he would have to fight other universes, and knew they would die, and that weighed on his conscience... but this wish was very tempting.

In the tournament proper, he chose to not actively knock people out at first because he knew this was wrong. That's a giant hypocritical red flag. He's a hypocrite because he's in the tournament and knows he has to damn other universes to get what he wants, but claims he wont? Crazy. After he's confronted by Hit and Goku, he spends the remainder of the tournament dealing with Goku.

Then Jiren's moment of truth comes. He chooses to focus on winning instead of saving his friends. Because when things get tough, Jiren prefers to do things on his own. We're then told that this is Jiren's flaw that his master had hoped he would get over someday. We then see that it is his flaw when it's ultimately teamwork that beats him from 2 angles: Universe 7's teamwork beat him and he would've won had he just saved Top and Dyspo because they'd outnumber 17.

During all of this, we're told that Jiren's wish was to bring back his master so that his master could see how powerful he'd become and tell him what he lacked. The mighty Jiren just wanted his master to tell him he's proud of him, as Vegeta derisively mocked.

Going back to the earlier hypocrite comment, at one point he says taking advantage of weaknesses isn't true strength, but he himself took advantage of Hit's time lag by playing possum to knock Hit out of the ring earlier in the tournament. The biggest hypocrisy of Jiren, however, is that he presents himself as heroic and selfless, yet intends to make a selfish wish. True, he isn't asking for immortality, or anything like that, but he's ultimately asking for something that benefits him and only him.

Finally, we learn that Jiren's obsession with protecting people comes from a deep guilt that he was unable to protect his master. That guilt is likely why he keeps everyone at distance, so he doesn't let himself care enough about anyone that much again. So the strongest warrior is so weak inside he's afraid to form real connections. Jiren, despite all his power, is portrayed as flawed and broken in the manga. That's a tight and (most importantly) consistent fucking character arc that also adds actual character to the most boring Dragonball antagonist.

Toyotaro fully fleshed him out.

If you mean in terms of adding details to the story, then did you miss every bit of added exposition in the manga that the anime just chose to ignore? Did you miss how, in the manga, Vermoud is an actual character? Did you miss the lengthy flashback in the Trunks arc showing how Dabra, Babidi and eventually Goku Black showed up to decimate the future timeline, while also explaining how Trunks got so strong? There's so much relevant expanded content in the manga that I'm beginning to question if you actually read it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:31 am

TKA wrote:The way the panels are laid out makes it boring and lame for you? Then you must have some very specific tastes.

That is to say, the layout of Toyotaro's paneling doesn't at all impact how I view the plot, the themes, or the character interactions. Do I wish he could cut back on the dialogue? Yes. Does it affect my enjoyment of his work? No, not really.

Also, if you're going to be talking about Toyotaro's skill, you can't just go "I don't care about the examples or explanations of why the Super manga is the way it is right now, all I care about is that he sucks". Because let's not forget that this is what this is about. You're saying he's inept at construction, when much of his previous work shows that this is not at all his norm.
I don't remember implying that the paneling was the only issue with the manga. Again, I never even intended for it to be a part of the conversation. His plot, themes and characterization are ALSO pretty poor for a number of reasons I don't really feel like getting into.

And again, context =/= quality. You can give whatever reason you want for why it is the way it is, that doesn't make it better. And his previous work is still pretty flat, it just doesn't attack my eye holes.
TKA wrote:The arc is already condensed to only what matters. Or did you miss the countless complaints about how he's "rushing"? The manga's tournament of power is as lean as it can be while still maintaining its narrative weight.
No, it was rushed AND managed it's time poorly. It loses the narrative weight even further because it could expand on it more than it does but always jumps to something else before anything can be sufficiently impactful. If he has this many fucking panels to work with he should have used them to flesh out the events happening, but he mostly used them for repeated reaction shots and blow flurries that add nothing.
TKA wrote:But you all but said you don't care that he's under constraints that Toriyama himself wasn't under when making the original manga, so there's really no point in explaining any of this to you.
Besides the fact that you're assuming a lot about the workload of writing and drawing an entire manga from scratch when Toyotaro isn't fully writing OR drawing the manga and his schedule is still slower than Toriyama's was in the original series while being up to par with neither that NOR the original manga, I would say no! I don't care, because a truly prolific and good artist makes the most with their limitations! If the manga were actually good, it would be an accomplishment. But it's not good. Saying the reason it's not good still doesn't make it good.
TKA wrote:Bruh, I know that my replies can be lengthy, but I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that I was talking about something from 4 months ago. You said you don't believe me that other people brought TNM into this thread as a way of strengthening their own arguments. I then presented you with the evidence that that's exactly how he was first introduced to this thread.
I didn't say I didn't believe that other people did that, I said I didn't do that. I don't fucking care what other people did four months ago.
TKA wrote:No, hermano. We explained why the video was terrible while also explaining to you why we disagree with your points. It's not hard to do both at the same time.
TKA wrote:The message you should be taking from this is "Don't try to use a youtuber to justify/strengthen your arguments." TNM's video is full of ill-conceived notions and ill-reasoned conclusions. He has no weight, and I'd rather not have to watch an entire video to see what you're talking about. You have a point? State that point and leave that video in your watch history.
How many fucking times do we need to go through this? I never said or did anything like that. I don't need that fucking lesson, even if you were right about the video and youtube in general.
TKA wrote:A fanmade patch is nothing. Now if that fan made his patch and then declared "I made a better game than Bethesda!" then that's something. That's what we're talking about here. TNM, in his video, said his changes improved what Toyotaro did. That isn't criticism. It's sycophantic self-aggrandization masquerading as something worthwhile.
He didn't say that he "made a better manga", though. His changes do in fact remove panels from the manga, which many have observed clogged up the pages. It's obviously subjective, but it is up to nobody but the individual to say that they look better. There's no hard rule to it. Nobody is claiming he is a better mangaka than Toyotaro, least of all him OR me.
TKA wrote:"Hey, I don't like what you made because it isn't the way I would've done it" is a shitty way to look at things actual creative people have created. Criticism is about taking the art as it is, seeing what the author/director/mangaka wanted to do, and then explaining if they accomplished it.
Perhaps I misspoke. The point I was making is that people have taste, and in the case of a Dragon Ball fan's taste being catered to, all criticism from Dragon Ball fans is geared to how it can better cater toward their taste as Dragon Ball fans.
TKA wrote:If we "criticize" things in the way you claim, then you'd have critics rewriting Lolita and taking out all the creepy stuff and passing that off as better than the original. It's nonsense. Your job is to consume, not to edit. As a consumer, your only choice is deciding if you want to consume or not; it is not your place to tell the writer how to do his job.
This glorification of the idea of a creator is kind of amazing. Creators are consumers. Consumers eventually become creators. Analysis and "how could they have done this differently" is the exact way many people realize they want to create stuff, or try to communicate it to the people that DO create stuff. The guys who made Sonic Mania got their start with things like the Sonic 1 GBA proof of concept, made because of the disaster of a port that was Sonic Genesis. That got them hired for things like the modern and mobile ports of CD, 1 and 2, and eventually they got to create their own game with Mania. And it all started with literally improving on other people's work (or, uh, not-work in the case of Sonic Genesis, god what a mess).
TKA wrote:No, man. You're not reading. I said creators, in the framework of what they created, are unassailable. Whatever you do to their work cannot be better than what they created. You cannot improve on what they've done. If you want to, go make your own thing.
I did read that, I just didn't respond to it the way you wanted me to because it's fucking bonkers. People build careers out of changing what other people have made for what they consider to be better. If people agree with them, who the hell are you to say they don't feel the way they do about a thing? Because "how people feel about a thing" is all quality is. Whether it "achieved what the artist set out to do" or whatever you were spouting doesn't matter because whether that achievement was met is almost always subjective as well.
TKA wrote:This is not all me saying you don't have the right to critique things. Go fucking nuts and critique everything you want to, my man. Don't let anybody ever tell you you can't do that. What I'm saying is, when you go and start editing a creator's work and going "Durr hurrr, I made it better than he did lol!" is when you've gone too far and are no longer critiquing.
Again, nobody is saying those five pages or whatever are better than the entire manga, but it's a very obvious problem and he proposed his idea of a solution, which many people happen to agree with. It is as much an improvement those specific pages as anyone thinks it is.
TKA wrote:Let me make this as simple as can be.

I draw a circle. I say it's a circle. It's clearly a square. You tell me it's not a circle. That is criticism.

I draw a circle. I say it's a circle. It's clearly a square. You take the pencil from me and start changing it. That isn't criticism.
Circles and squares are objectively-defined objects. Quality is and always will be completely subjective.
TKA wrote:In the burger scenario, you have every right to edit it since you purchased it. It's yours now. You add mayonnaise to it. Can you then say you've made a burger better than the burger the chef made? You can, but you'd sound pretty dumb to say that considering everything else that went into making the burger: all you did was add mayonnaise to it. Can you say the burger is better with mayonnaise? Maybe to you, but what if that chef specifically chose to not use mayonnaise on his menu because he feels the lack of it enhances the other flavors? At that point, you've fundamentally changed what the thing is from what the creator intended. You missed the damn point.
Yet again, nobody is claiming the entire manga is better with those edits, just that those pages are more readable and flow better with them. If I remove the patty from the burger, grill my own from scratch and put it back in, I can 100% say that it tastes better with the beef I specifically put in there (I mean, it's probably wrong, I'm a horrible cook, but whatever).
TKA wrote:And no, I don't care if you're Vincent van Gogh, you don't have the right to edit other people's work and then claim you're improving it or making it better. You're doing the equivalent of Squidward putting a fake nose on a piece of art and claiming it better than what the original artist intended.
This manga isn't something Toyotaro made for himself, though. Of course people have no right to take something he made for himself, alter it and call it better because of their standards, but we are totally justified as Dragon Ball fans in explaining how something made for people who like Dragon Ball could fit better into our personal standards as Dragon Ball fans. Nobody is acting like anyone is a better animator, director, character designer, soundtrack composer, writer, etc. for making fanedits of Dragon Ball, but plenty of us, myself included, consider certain ones better, more enjoyable ways of watching the series. This manga panelling thing is exactly the same (well, except actually being a way of experiencing the series), and I can tell you you're gonna make a lot of enemies if you try to claim that anyone who makes a fanedit of a movie is just "pretending they're better filmmakers than the originals". If anything is insulting to creatives here, it's that. These things are made out of love, concern and hope for the series (well, maybe not this, but most Dragon Ball edits are). It takes work to analyze and alter things too, sometimes different skills than it took to create them in the first place.

Better example, why don't you go tell all the people in the color-correction thread that they're wrong for trying to restore the original colors because Toei wants us to have aged Dragon Box footage? They own the series, therefore it's their intent. I'm sure you'll get some great support.
TKA wrote:Criticism is something every professional embraces, since it tells them what elements were missing from their work to do what they intended it to do. "Improving" on their work is shitty because it's basically saying they're incompetent at their jobs, the youtuber/whatever knows better than them and that whatever they missed was so obvious that some jackass with no credits under his/her belt could fix it.
So how far does it go, then? If he'd redrawn these pages from scratch, would it be okay? It wouldn't belong to Toyotaro, and people could judge for themselves whether they thought it was better or not. If someone suggests something to Toyotaro and he does it and everyone thinks the manga is better for it, are they not partially to credit for the change having been made? The video can totally perceived as constructive criticism that happens to have an illustrated example of what could be better, you are the one trying to somehow interpret it as a work unto it's own created to spite the original. I mean, if "creator intent" is so important, why don't you ask the Mark himself what the video meant? You're obviously having trouble deducing that on your own.
TKA wrote:I don't get what about this is so hard to understand. You're not making anything. You don't know what goes into making the thing. You have zero idea of what constraints he has. So I ask, who the fuck are you to edit his work and then claim you're improving it?
By that same logic, without understanding the struggles that dear sweet poor innocent sweet poor dear sweet innocent dear dear sweet Toyotaro goes through to bring us his unrivaled holy brainchild that is his and nobody else's, how should anyone be allowed to criticize in the first place?

All criticism goes hand in hand with the individual's idea of how a thing could be better. Because, again, the video's not a manga unto itself, it's a critical piece that happens to take a few pages and show how the creator thought they could be better. The only real out you can get for this is "alright but he was kind of a dick about it", to which I think everyone is long gone at this point.
TKA wrote: Elaborating? It's only been 2 goddamn chapters. Now isn't the time to elaborate or explain. Now is the time to set shit up. It isn't doing a good job at what Dragonball has always been good at: being unpredictable. By this point, there should've been a lot more going on, instead we spent the chapter before this one one a stupid train heist.
Not really "2" again, but you're missing what I'm saying. It's not giving weight or meaning to the stuff that's happened, even though plenty of stuff has happened. That's why it feels rushed. It's not about the literal length of things, it's the pacing.
TKA wrote:If you mean in terms of adding details to the story, then did you miss every bit of added exposition in the manga that the anime just chose to ignore? Did you miss how, in the manga, Vermoud is an actual character? Did you miss the lengthy flashback in the Trunks arc showing how Dabra, Babidi and eventually Goku Black showed up to decimate the future timeline, while also explaining how Trunks got so strong? There's so much relevant expanded content in the manga that I'm beginning to question if you actually read it.
Needless filler exposition isn't a substitute for making things fun or feel important, which they don't. Trunks's dumb flashback doesn't actually mean anything to Trunks as a character or the themes of the arc as a whole. It's time wasted that could have been spent better developing more important things, or maybe finding a way to have the timelines make sense. There are ways that it's actually worse that I don't really feel like discussing. But thanks for the potshot of "well if you don't feel the way I do you must have just not read it", it really tops off the approach you've been taking most of the time in this thread quite nicely.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:35 pm

TKA wrote: It isn't doing a good job at what Dragonball has always been good at: being unpredictable. By this point, there should've been a lot more going on, instead we spent the chapter before this one one a stupid train heist.
I see your point there .
The train heist served to don’t make an abrupt in between arcs , breath , kind of “slice of life “ galactic patrol duties , put more weight in merus mysterious movements and introduce those characters that later revealed Moro and his accomplice directions .
I’m ok with that and I liked it .
You can say also , that in the pre tournament, it wasn’t necessary those chapters that introduced the saiyan girls or u11, original dragon ball used to throw new characters straight into the tournament arena ,like ten shin Han , for the shake of the unpredictable..
So , yeah It seems different to the original dragon ball , but helped to place us in the space , moving interplanetary with the galactic patrol , it’s not as stupid as you can think . Feels anime filler , yes , but to me it was necessary something like that and was enjoyable, a chapter were life is not at risk . Men previous chapter they defeated jiren , and next after the train heist they are facing death again against the goat ....
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:46 pm

Anyway so what's gonna happen with Majin Boo. I don't think Goku & Vegeta are going to defeat Moro any time soon. So maybe the Grand Supreme Kai might actually return. If so it would be a great opportunity to give East Supreme Kai some sort extended character development and make peace with his past. Majin Boo as well since its another chance for him to ponder over just who he really is. Also I'm totally up for Goku learning some sort of Ki based Magic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:45 pm

Son Dragon wrote:Anyway so what's gonna happen with Majin Boo. I don't think Goku & Vegeta are going to defeat Moro any time soon. So maybe the Grand Supreme Kai might actually return. If so it would be a great opportunity to give East Supreme Kai some sort extended character development and make peace with his past. Majin Boo as well since its another chance for him to ponder over just who he really is. Also I'm totally up for Goku learning some sort of Ki based Magic.
Well according to Merus statement about Goku and Vegeta most likely about to take an L. We will be seeing Dai Kaioshin.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm

IM21 wrote:good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.
That's great to hear, those panels were awesome.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Green_Goblin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:52 am

IM21 wrote:good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.
Maybe in the future releases of Super (as was done with OG DB manga) they'll add pages to the Tournament of Power arc volumes where the off-screen eliminated participants are eliminated so we could see Toyotaro's vision on that topic. Giving this arc a propper manga version of the stroy without any left out holes. Just hoping that if it will be shown it won't be like all of them were taken out by Universe 7 members (mostly Frieza).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Scsigs » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:19 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:
IM21 wrote:good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.
Maybe in the future releases of Super (as was done with OG DB manga) they'll add pages to the Tournament of Power arc volumes where the off-screen eliminated participants are eliminated so we could see Toyotaro's vision on that topic. Giving this arc a propper manga version of the stroy without any left out holes. Just hoping that if it will be shown it won't be like all of them were taken out by Universe 7 members (mostly Frieza).
I mean, if there could also be pages added to the Battle of Gods arc & if they add the Res F adaptation & finish it that was given out in Japan when the movie came out, I'd be game.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Green_Goblin » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:45 pm

Scsigs wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:
IM21 wrote:good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.
Maybe in the future re-releases of Super (as was done with OG DB manga) they'll add pages to the Tournament of Power arc volumes where the off-screen eliminated participants are eliminated so we could see Toyotaro's vision on that topic. Giving this arc a propper manga version of the stroy without any left out holes. Just hoping that if it will be shown it won't be like all of them were taken out by Universe 7 members (mostly Frieza and Android 17 who got too much points on this section in both Anime and Manga).
I mean, if there could also be pages added to the Battle of Gods arc & if they add the Res F adaptation & finish it that was given out in Japan when the movie came out, I'd be game.
Fixed my comment to make my point clearer. Here's my suggestion from back in August: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&p=1534384&#p1534276 Now in retro-spect, wouldn't mind if that poor Murichim would get the spotlight as well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:05 pm

batistabus wrote:I'm really liking Moro's personality. Despite the actions that Vegeta has taken against him, he has not come close to losing his cool. That's pretty unique. As for the return of his magic, I'm betting it had something to do with the changes Boo went through when he purged the evil from his body. He said it mysteriously happened a few years ago, so one way or another, it probably had something to do with the Boo arc.
I think it's too soon to be excited with this Moro guy and this arc overrall. I mean if this ends up being better than the Potaufeu arc, I'll be fine with it.

People are jumping the gun, but they are right to do so... Why Moro has to be on Namek? This guy has incredible magical powers, but I doubt they will be creative as some members have listed a few pages ago.

It feels like another Goku and Vegeta arc, Beerus and Whis will not be involved (again) and this might end up with Gogeta defeating a bulked version of Moro.
Rakurai wrote:People just want Vegeta to be more tsundere about his actions. :lol:
For god's sake no... I hate this wave that his Super has emerged on it that Vegeta has to be a tsudere all the time, we had moments of him acting like it on Z but it wasn't regular. Him acknowledging the damage he has done to the namekians in the past and saying he wouldn't allow more of them to die is a good touch way better than Goku asking it and him denied it (but confirming to the audience that is the case).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Miracles wrote:
Son Dragon wrote:Anyway so what's gonna happen with Majin Boo. I don't think Goku & Vegeta are going to defeat Moro any time soon. So maybe the Grand Supreme Kai might actually return. If so it would be a great opportunity to give East Supreme Kai some sort extended character development and make peace with his past. Majin Boo as well since its another chance for him to ponder over just who he really is. Also I'm totally up for Goku learning some sort of Ki based Magic.
Well according to Merus statement about Goku and Vegeta most likely about to take an L. We will be seeing Dai Kaioshin.
Nice. Hopefully he returns as a fighter, if does we might see more of him in the games as well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:40 pm

Son Dragon wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Son Dragon wrote:Anyway so what's gonna happen with Majin Boo. I don't think Goku & Vegeta are going to defeat Moro any time soon. So maybe the Grand Supreme Kai might actually return. If so it would be a great opportunity to give East Supreme Kai some sort extended character development and make peace with his past. Majin Boo as well since its another chance for him to ponder over just who he really is. Also I'm totally up for Goku learning some sort of Ki based Magic.
Well according to Merus statement about Goku and Vegeta most likely about to take an L. We will be seeing Dai Kaioshin.
Nice. Hopefully he returns as a fighter, if does we might see more of him in the games as well.
Wooh, can the people envision Goku, Vegeta and Dai Kaioshin battling a full power Moro?!!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by louisascommie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:33 pm

I'm hoping buu actually gets a fight

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm honestly loving the discussion surrounding Toyotaro's panelling. I want to think I started it a long time ago in this thread when I was criticizing the Chapter with Goku and Hit vs. Jiren; expressing my complaints over Toyotaro structuring the pages with way more panels than needed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:11 pm

Isn't the number of panels dependent on what the author is trying to convey through the story? For example if one wanted to show choreography with explanations of a battle, won't more panels be necessary for story sake?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:52 pm

Miracles wrote:Isn't the number of panels dependent on what the author is trying to convey through the story? For example if one wanted to show choreography with explanations of a battle, won't more panels be necessary for story sake?
It is. However, Toyotaro would sometimes fill the page with what I refer to as "unnecessary panels." Panels that the page could do without to both conserve his time for much more interesting drawings and to allow the other panels to have a bit of breathing room. What I mean by breathing room is for him to draw larger panels that would allow us to interpret the art better as opposed to him making them smaller for the sake of more panels. Seeing Goku clash fists with Merged Zamasu will look it's best with a larger and more detailed drawing as opposed to a downsized image with less detail for what is an intense moment between the protagonist and the antagonist.

What really made me want to speak out about this was something less significant; it was more of a nitpick that made me want to say something about it. It was the chapter involving Hit vs. Jiren where there was a panel involving Hit winding up his kick. The panel afterwards proceeds to show Hit kicking Jiren. I refer to the panel before it as unnecessary. I say this because Toyotaro simply could have drawn Hit kicking Jiren with his leg in motion. That would allow Toyotaro to conserve space and make a more detailed drawing, as well as make the page feel a little less cramped with his numerous panels. I also went on to argue how Toyotaro could contain dialogue within less panels. The example I used involved Krillin confronting Goku about not revealing the ToP to him and lying about it. Maybe 5-6 panels were used when it easily could have been contained within 2-4. And the panels had boring angles. The same can be applied to the same chapter involving Goku and Hit tagteaming Jiren, where Goku and Jiren exchange words and the panels constantly shift between their faces. It'd be much easier for Toyotaro to work with less panels to conjure more interesting shots for these panels, as well provide more detailed art at the expense of drawing less panels/characters on the same page. It's why multiple panels in the ToP Arc make the stage look so small when it was meant to be portrayed much larger.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:25 am

I don't see a need to further reply.
Exline wrote:I'm honestly loving the discussion surrounding Toyotaro's panelling.
I'm not. What's there to discuss? This discussion is boring and only ends in one of two positions: "I like it," or "I don't like it." There's not a lot to learn there.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 pm

Exline wrote:
Miracles wrote:Isn't the number of panels dependent on what the author is trying to convey through the story? For example if one wanted to show choreography with explanations of a battle, won't more panels be necessary for story sake?
It is. However, Toyotaro would sometimes fill the page with what I refer to as "unnecessary panels." Panels that the page could do without to both conserve his time for much more interesting drawings and to allow the other panels to have a bit of breathing room. What I mean by breathing room is for him to draw larger panels that would allow us to interpret the art better as opposed to him making them smaller for the sake of more panels. Seeing Goku clash fists with Merged Zamasu will look it's best with a larger and more detailed drawing as opposed to a downsized image with less detail for what is an intense moment between the protagonist and the antagonist.

What really made me want to speak out about this was something less significant; it was more of a nitpick that made me want to say something about it. It was the chapter involving Hit vs. Jiren where there was a panel involving Hit winding up his kick. The panel afterwards proceeds to show Hit kicking Jiren. I refer to the panel before it as unnecessary. I say this because Toyotaro simply could have drawn Hit kicking Jiren with his leg in motion. That would allow Toyotaro to conserve space and make a more detailed drawing, as well as make the page feel a little less cramped with his numerous panels. I also went on to argue how Toyotaro could contain dialogue within less panels. The example I used involved Krillin confronting Goku about not revealing the ToP to him and lying about it. Maybe 5-6 panels were used when it easily could have been contained within 2-4. And the panels had boring angles. The same can be applied to the same chapter involving Goku and Hit tagteaming Jiren, where Goku and Jiren exchange words and the panels constantly shift between their faces. It'd be much easier for Toyotaro to work with less panels to conjure more interesting shots for these panels, as well provide more detailed art at the expense of drawing less panels/characters on the same page. It's why multiple panels in the ToP Arc make the stage look so small when it was meant to be portrayed much larger.
Well...It seems it's just a matter of Toyotaro's taste and necessities against yours. I didn't think those panels demonstrating choreography were a problem.

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