"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:10 pm

Miracles wrote: Well...It seems it's just a matter of Toyotaro's taste and necessities against yours. I didn't think those panels demonstrating choreography were a problem.
It's unnecessary and it bloats the page. The other panels could benefit without these unnecessary panels.
Here are two examples. One from Toriyama and one from Toyotaro:
These two examples demonstrate an exchange between characters. Toriyama uses 7 panels in his page, Toyotaro uses 11. Which is easier to look at? Which looks more detailed? Which draws your attention more and makes you not want to skip it instead?
I think we can agree Toriyama's is much better. This is because Toriyama has a better understanding on how to story board these panels. These panels look great because they are large enough for Toriyama to bring forth his artistic capabilities in the best way possible. He understands that if he draws too many panels on one page, the art quality would decrease; too many panels on one page will hinder his drawing capabilities. He also limits the amount of dialogue between characters so that it doesn't consume the entire panel/page. Toyotaro fails to understand this sometimes.

Other mangaka do better than him as well. Take Kohei Horikoshi for example.
2 bubbles less than what we saw on Toyotaro's page, but with less panels. The art is fleshed out more because there is more breathing room for these panels. We even get more emotion between panels than what we saw within Toyotaro's.
I'm just trying to say that Toyotaro's art could benefit if he learns to get rid of scenes (and maybe dialogue as well) that could be cut out to benefit the art quality, as well as the flow of these scenes. There is absolutely no reason for us to see Hit winding up a kick that has little to no impact. Scenes like those are reserved for the anime.
TKA wrote:I don't see a need to further reply.
Exline wrote:I'm honestly loving the discussion surrounding Toyotaro's panelling.
I'm not. What's there to discuss? This discussion is boring and only ends in one of two positions: "I like it," or "I don't like it." There's not a lot to learn there.
There could be a lot more to discuss but I guess it's not as interesting as a topic to most people other than me. It's pretty much critiquing his story boarding. It's pretty repetitive and uninspiring at times.
I loved watching Episodes like 108 and 131 in the anime because of how well directed they were (directed by the same person I believe). It felt like we were watching an actual quality product for once as opposed to previous episodes that felt like they were drawn by some youtuber testing his animation skills in Macromedia Flash.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:35 pm

Man, I'm looking forward to seeing what type of magic Moro will use against Vegeta.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:42 pm

Exline wrote: There could be a lot more to discuss but I guess it's not as interesting as a topic to most people other than me. It's pretty much critiquing his story boarding. It's pretty repetitive and uninspiring at times.
It's basically an argument that isn't interesting to have when we know why the manga is the way it is. Though many people prefer to ignore the why of it, and instead insist that he's just bad at what he does, despite so much evidence to the contrary. It's just a bad faith discussion. His paneling will never "improve" so long as he has to finish these lengthy arcs in a comparatively small window of time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:33 pm

TKA wrote:
Exline wrote: There could be a lot more to discuss but I guess it's not as interesting as a topic to most people other than me. It's pretty much critiquing his story boarding. It's pretty repetitive and uninspiring at times.
It's basically an argument that isn't interesting to have when we know why the manga is the way it is. Though many people prefer to ignore the why of it, and instead insist that he's just bad at what he does, despite so much evidence to the contrary. It's just a bad faith discussion. His paneling will never "improve" so long as he has to finish these lengthy arcs in a comparatively small window of time.
I don't get the justification for his subpar work when he has a whole month to work on it compared to other mangaka that only have a single week. I barely see any improvement in his art since the Black Arc.
Also what do you mean "an argument that isn't interesting to have when we know why the manga is the way it is?"
Why is the manga the way it is?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:46 pm

Exline wrote: I don't get the justification for his subpar work when he has a whole month to work on it compared to other mangaka that only have a single week.
Subpar to you.

Not subpar to me.

That aside, it's obvious that in earlier chapters, where he didn't have to condense entire arcs and only give us the cliffnotes version, there was more breathing room. Ever since he got pushed to 45 pages by the Universe 6 vs 7 tournament, there's been substantially more panels per page. That coincides with when he started telling an actual story. The obvious explanation is he has more to cover, so that's the natural result.

Other monthly manga aren't trying to adapt someone's script, while making sure it's relevant to what's happening in other media within the respective franchise.
Last edited by TKA on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:46 pm

Exline wrote:These two examples demonstrate an exchange between characters. Toriyama uses 7 panels in his page, Toyotaro uses 11.
I agree , that 11 panel example that you provided is really overloaded, I don’t like it neither.
But don’t make it look as a rule on toyotaros paneling, it’s not .
I just took a relax look on volume 8 while having a juice , chapters 37 to 40 , and I only found 1 page having the same issue, the moment 17 ask kulilin to look after his children ... another 10 panel page . The rest of the volume is pretty decent following the 7-8 panels per page rule ...having nice fighting choreographies.
Btw toriyama example that you linked has 8 panels , not 7 .
You can also very rarely found toriyama making a page with 10 panels , and if you check on Oda one piece , you’ll find lots of them , usually happens when conversations, allowing to tell more in less pages for the shake of having more artistic pages instead of dialogue pages .
Of course toyotaro is not at level of toriyama or oda , but he’s not that bad as you pretend to make him look like .
I.m.o the worse thing he made in T.o.p arc was to give kulilin over 80 panels , most of them unnecessary, easily you can ged rid of half of them and give gohan vs kefla more panels , for example ..., but like somebody pointed in this thread before , say things about how to fix a manga is easy and cheap to say , the hard part is to come and draw a good product, with is what toyotaro is doing and none of the people who fix him is able to do .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:03 pm

TKA wrote:
Exline wrote: I don't get the justification for his subpar work when he has a whole month to work on it compared to other mangaka that only have a single week.
Subpar to you.

Not subpar to me.

That aside, it's obvious that in earlier chapters, where he didn't have to condense entire arcs and only give us the cliffnotes version, there was more breathing room. Ever since he got pushed to 45 pages by the Universe 6 vs 7 tournament, there's been substantially more panels per page. That coincides with when he started telling an actual story. The obvious explanation is he has more to cover, so that's the natural result.

Other monthly manga aren't trying to adapt someone's script, while making sure it's relevant to what's happening in other media within the respective franchise.
I don't think we even need our bias' to decide whether or not his art work is mediocre. Even in my examples you can see that toyotaro needs to improve his line art.
I also disagree how the explanation behind the bloated pages are because "he has more to cover." He storyboards like it's an anime rather than a manga at times with the constant camera shifts for a simple exchange between characters.

And finally, isn't he mostly in charge of the manga? I was sure Toyotaro and Toei were just using Toriyama's outlines to work off, not an entire script. And I don't think he's working hard to keep it releveant with Super Broly since it was mostly skipped. We barely get any hints toward it so I doubt that's hindering him in any way. I'm not trying to bash his writing, I'm quite enjoying this arc so far. I don't get this site's problem with them fighting already as if it's the final fight. I'm just trying to criticize his art alone. It's understandable he's an amateur so he probably can't generate anything as great as Toriyama or Hirohiko Araki. However, Toyotaro needs to develop his skills as an artist if he's going to act as successor to one of the most popular franchises of all time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:22 pm

prince212 wrote:
Exline wrote:These two examples demonstrate an exchange between characters. Toriyama uses 7 panels in his page, Toyotaro uses 11.
I agree , that 11 panel example that you provided is really overloaded, I don’t like it neither.
But don’t make it look as a rule on toyotaros paneling, it’s not .
I just took a relax look on volume 8 while having a juice , chapters 37 to 40 , and I only found 1 page having the same issue, the moment 17 ask kulilin to look after his children ... another 10 panel page . The rest of the volume is pretty decent following the 7-8 panels per page rule ...having nice fighting choreographies.
Yeah I didn't mean to make it sound as if all pages are like this. Just something he should avoid.
prince212 wrote:Btw toriyama example that you linked has 8 panels , not 7 .
You can also very rarely found toriyama making a page with 10 panels , and if you check on Oda one piece , you’ll find lots of them , usually happens when conversations, allowing to tell more in less pages for the shake of having more artistic pages instead of dialogue pages .
Of course toyotaro is not at level of toriyama or oda , but he’s not that bad as you pretend to make him look like .
I.m.o the worse thing he made in T.o.p arc was to give kulilin over 80 panels , most of them unnecessary, easily you can ged rid of half of them and give gohan vs kefla more panels , for example ..., but like somebody pointed in this thread before , say things about how to fix a manga is easy and cheap to say , the hard part is to come and draw a good product, with is what toyotaro is doing and none of the people who fix him is able to do .
More panels isn't always bad. It's just if you're going to use it for a simple dialogue exchange is when it becomes unnecessary. I want to provide a good example from the Frieza saga, but I can't upload the pic for some reason. It's the last page for Chapter 270. It has 9 panels that focus on Krillin and Gohan preparing to leave. Despite it having a lot of panels, each panel conveys different emotion and actions compared to that example I posted earlier with Hit exchanging words with Goku making the same faces. Toyotaro makes a separate panel after he can't fit enough sentences in one. He also focuses on them standing still discussing how to deal with Jiren.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:29 am

Exline wrote: Yeah I didn't mean to make it sound as if all pages are like this. Just something he should avoid.

More panels isn't always bad. It's just if you're going to use it for a simple dialogue exchange is when it becomes unnecessary. I want to provide a good example from the Frieza saga, but I can't upload the pic for some reason. It's the last page for Chapter 270. It has 9 panels that focus on Krillin and Gohan preparing to leave. Despite it having a lot of panels, each panel conveys different emotion and actions compared to that example I posted earlier with Hit exchanging words with Goku making the same faces. Toyotaro makes a separate panel after he can't fit enough sentences in one. He also focuses on them standing still discussing how to deal with Jiren.
I checked that panel that you referenced :thumbup:
There’s no comparison when it comes to Toriyama original work ,no doubt , it hurted my eye when you place him in an earlier post together with the author of My hero academy just to say how amateur is toyotaro....
Yeah the example page hit - goku exchanging words is horrible when it comes to art , it’s so static and contains too much dialogue, the only positive thing about it is that served to build up ultra instinct, something that wasn’t done in the anime counterpart.
But that example page alone or 4-5 similar that you will find can’t not eliminate the good things he is doing , he’s not an amateur , either you like it or not .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Finally got round to watching the new Baki anime. It's opining arc is The Most Evil Death Row Convicts Arc (I'd read the manga version years go but had forgotten most of the details) and it's kind of what I was hoping this arc would be.
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While I like Moro so far I can't help but wish their were other prisoners with him to give the story more to work with. They didn't even need to start out strong, just have Moro pull a Babidi and make them stronger with his magic but unlike Babidi's lot make these guys all strong enough to be a challenge. Maybe have Moro send them all off to cause havoc around the universe to distract Goku and co.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:39 pm

Exline wrote:
Miracles wrote: Well...It seems it's just a matter of Toyotaro's taste and necessities against yours. I didn't think those panels demonstrating choreography were a problem.
It's unnecessary and it bloats the page. The other panels could benefit without these unnecessary panels.
Here are two examples. One from Toriyama and one from Toyotaro:
These two examples demonstrate an exchange between characters. Toriyama uses 7 panels in his page, Toyotaro uses 11. Which is easier to look at? Which looks more detailed? Which draws your attention more and makes you not want to skip it instead?
I think we can agree Toriyama's is much better. This is because Toriyama has a better understanding on how to story board these panels. These panels look great because they are large enough for Toriyama to bring forth his artistic capabilities in the best way possible. He understands that if he draws too many panels on one page, the art quality would decrease; too many panels on one page will hinder his drawing capabilities. He also limits the amount of dialogue between characters so that it doesn't consume the entire panel/page. Toyotaro fails to understand this sometimes.

Other mangaka do better than him as well. Take Kohei Horikoshi for example.
2 bubbles less than what we saw on Toyotaro's page, but with less panels. The art is fleshed out more because there is more breathing room for these panels. We even get more emotion between panels than what we saw within Toyotaro's.
I'm just trying to say that Toyotaro's art could benefit if he learns to get rid of scenes (and maybe dialogue as well) that could be cut out to benefit the art quality, as well as the flow of these scenes. There is absolutely no reason for us to see Hit winding up a kick that has little to no impact. Scenes like those are reserved for the anime.
Yes, I agree that Toyotaro could learn that those small cut panels with dialogue need to be condensed so the art can be showcased more. I think that was different from what we were talking earlier about his choreography.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RichardKing2 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:32 pm

cant wait for the leaks and upcoming info that will come for this chapter. i haven't really been as hyped for a chapter in a long while

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Smilodon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:14 pm

Me too....I can't wait to see the fight between Vegeta and Moro....
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Smilodon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:57 pm

Someone in 4chan posted a possible spoiler from next cap.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:02 pm

Yeah I'm stickin' with this guy.
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Goku offering to let Moro kill the dragons just for a fight is literally the meme of Goku's personality rather than what it actually is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Smilodon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:12 pm

But there was an oficial interview and someone (I forgot who) said that the Sayans will make things goes worse (like Vegeta did against Cell)....I don't believe too, but I do believe that Moro doesn't stand a good chance against them and they are going to give Moro some facility...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:17 pm

Smilodon wrote:But there was an oficial interview and someone (I forgot who) said that the Sayans will make things goes worse (like Vegeta did against Cell)....I don't believe too, but I do believe that Moro doesn't stand a good chance against them and they are going to give Moro some facility...
Yeah but Goku prob wouldn’t directly sacrifice a living being’s life just for a good fight. He’s literally feeding Moro the lives of others just for a good fight. I’m pretty sure for Goku, protecting people comes first for the most part. And other times, he only makes stupid decisions when he’s confident that he (or in the Cell saga case, Gohan) can win. And even then, those stupid decisions dont involve directly sacrificing someone
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by head_cha_la » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:25 pm

If the Super Dragon Balls are involved then we will see Hit, Caulifla, Kale and Kyabe again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:15 am

I'm not ready to buy into that, but if it is true, then hopefully people will also remember Toyotaro is not the only one behind the Manga. Toriyama is too, and approving it so. Not to mention his outlines as well. They'd both be to blame. But I have faith they wouldn't do Goku that badly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:22 am

Smilodon wrote:Someone in 4chan posted a possible spoiler from next cap.
Holy fuck that is awful :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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