"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME.

Calm down. Stop thinking of the manga's powerups as transformations. They're not. It's a progression that show's the characters' growth without a need to change their hair colors to sell more toys.

Stopping people transforming at all is a bit of an odd 'nothing' considering it makes it seem like Vegeta isnt able to do it for different reasons than 'I'm too tired' before 'HE IS OUT OF STAMINA' *flashbacks to the TOP*

1. If the only development in 45 pages is "Oh, we don't have enough energy to transform anymore" then there's a lot to be desired in terms of pacing, no?

2. I hope you mean the anime's tournament of power. In the manga, when they said they were out, they were out.

[mahakaishin1991]

Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME.

Calm down. Stop thinking of the manga's powerups as transformations. They're not. It's a progression that show's the characters' growth without a need to change their hair colors to sell more toys.

Stopping people transforming at all is a bit of an odd 'nothing' considering it makes it seem like Vegeta isnt able to do it for different reasons than 'I'm too tired' before 'HE IS OUT OF STAMINA' *flashbacks to the TOP*

1. If the only development in 45 pages is "Oh, we don't have enough energy to transform anymore" then there's a lot to be desired in terms of pacing, no?

2. I hope you mean the anime's tournament of power. In the manga, when they said they were out, they were out.

1. Its fine, I dont mind the odd chapter like this.

2. How is it hard to work out which I'm referring to then?

[Draconic]

The fight looks great, so I'm happy about that, but there's nothing of interest really happening here. Meerus already seems to know everything Vegeta attempts to learn from Moro, so the whole Picoolo/Cell act isn't that compelling. I think everybody expected Moro to eventually steal Goku and Vegeta's power, so for it to happen so late in the chapter and basically leaving the consequences to be explored later is kind of cockblocking. And that's kind of it... There really isn't much to this chapter.

I'll give it props to it for finally selling me on Moro. He's basically every other bland Toei villain personality wise, but I reeeeeally liked his fighting style. This kind of terraforming, if you can call it that, is pretty unique in Dragon Ball and, even though it's not actually using the land but using blasts from the land's Ki, the Ki blasts still look cool and have this twisted snake-like quality to them that makes them cool.

[AnimeNation101]

This point is void if these turns out to be his only magical abilities.

No, it's not. You're misrepresenting my point.

I've repeatedly made it very clear that I'm referring to this month. Giving Moro more abilities later isn't suddenly going to change dozens of pages offering nothing of significance. It's a poorly structured (and very poorly paced) chapter that barely moves the plot forward and doesn't contribute anything to the overarching story, which makes it almost pointless in the grand scheme of the arc. That's my key complaint here.

Inconsistent because you found one chapter too slow?

I think you should go back and carefully read my thoughts on previous chapters before making that charge. Chapter 43's pacing in particular left a lot to be desired. We're already seeing a bad pattern.

No. I meant MY point is void if these are Moro’s only magical abilities.
Also, you literally said in the page before this one that the previous chapter’s pacing was fine...
So just because this chapter is one you find slow with bad pacing, that doesn’t automatically mean that this arc’s pacing will end up inconsistent no matter what.

[JazzMazz]

I think the action in this chapter was interesting enough, not necessarily because of Toyo's panelling, but more so due to Moro's ability being really cool in theory. I at the very least appreciate that for being a bit different from the usual. Know this probably wouldn't be the place to say this, but I think is honestly something that would just a lot better in an anime adaptation...

Will agree with some of the actually plotting though, with us already reconfirming what we already knew about Moro's without doing much in the way of say building up a real interaction between him and Vegeta, outside of some pretty plain banter.

Still think I'm looking forward to how this storyline plods out.

[Sora Saiyan]

Which, imo, is stupid. Why not just use SSBKK and SSBE? Merge the continuities!

Are you serious?

SSBKK and SSBE are from Toei, not Toriyama... Thanks god is only an anime thing. Well, even in the Broly movie nobody mentions that shitty transformations.

AND!? Toyo is literally just making forms that are the EQUIVALENTS of SSBE and SSBKK. Thery’re the same thing. Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME. And now Goku introduces some technique in the T.o.P manga that doe sthe exact same thing as kaioken but ISN’T kaioken and we NEVER get an exact explanation of what it is. Now we have this new ability from Vegeta that still looks exactly like SSB but is something similar to kaioken.

He’s introducing multiple forms that are confusing to keep track of the fill the SAME ROLES as SSBE and SSBKK from the anime. Might as well just use those forms.

Ya know Toyos take on this helps to meld better with what was shown the Broly movie as there was no SSJBE, or KK, but the aura for SSJB in the movie was different than what was shown previously in the anime, and actually looks very similar to Vegetas form here. It also gave SSJB a new power up to add more miles to it, but like I said prior it actually makes a more consistent product as it fits with the Broly movie. It's sorta like killing two birds with one stone.

Anyway, as it stands it can be argued that this presents issues to CSSJB being a thing, but one thing's for sure, having a regular looking SSJB around for now fits with what Toriyama appears to see as the characters current max strength.

It's gonna be interesting to see if this form is ever referred to as anything other than just "SSJB", as the manga hasn't actually had truly different forms of SSJB yet, as CSSJB is just referred to as SSJB. The manga seems to use the power ups as improvements to regular SSJB, and they aren't referred to as anything different because they're fundamentally the same form that just 'replaces' the old SSJB. The anime obviously goes a different way with this.

I've also gotta add that I haven't read all of the chapter yet, and if Goku can't use this form then it being a power up to fit better with what was shown in the Broly movie basically goes out the window.

[alakazam^]

2. How is it hard to work out which I'm referring to then?

It's not but he needs an excuse to mention the anime at every turn. Nothing new, really.

[AnimeNation101]

Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME.

Calm down. Stop thinking of the manga's powerups as transformations. They're not. It's a progression that show's the characters' growth without a need to change their hair colors to sell more toys.

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST. It makes no sense to introduce forms that are the exact equivalents of SSBKK and SSBE in the manga, but both still just look like SSB. It just complicates things.

In the manga, we have SSB, Perfected SSB, the SSB power Goku used which they compared to Kaioken, and the SSB power Vegeta used against Toppo.

And using the “sell more toys” excuse wont work since SSBKK and SSBE were a thing in the anime already and were therefore already having toys sold. The manga ALSO using the forms wouldn’t change that aspect

Perfected SSB was a substitute for SSBKK. I get this. Like you said, it shows progression. But now, these latter 2 forms are exact substitutes form SSBKK and SSBE. Not to mention that latter 2 forms got little to no explanation for what they even ARE or how they came from SSB.

If Perfected SSB is supposed to be the pinnicle of SSB but these latter 2 forms are significantly more powerful but are still SSB, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. Toyo is making things more confusion and complicated for no reason.

These latter 2 forms dont even show character growth and progression. Because again, Goku pulled this new SSB power out of thin air and it was never explained what it REALLY was and Vegeta gets his power exactly like SSBE (except in an inferior way) so it’s as lacking in growth and progression as SSBE anyways.

Not to mention, both of these manga forms go back on what Perfected SSB established with not letting your ki leak.

So again, these manga forms are worse than SSBKK and SSBE.

[Marlowe89]

Also, you literally said in the page before this one that the previous chapter’s pacing was fine...
So just because this chapter is one you find slow with bad pacing, that doesn’t automatically mean that this arc’s pacing will end up inconsistent no matter what.

First of all, friendo, you should know the chapter I very explicitly referred to as an example in my reply to you (Chapter 43) isn't the previous chapter.

Secondly, yes, it absolutely means that. Chapters 43 and 45 have already set a bad precedent, even if the following chapters pick up their speed. That's inconsistent. I'm not sure why you're trying to dispute the base definition, but the arc is already flip-flopping pretty badly in its plot progression.

[AnimeNation101]

Are you serious?

SSBKK and SSBE are from Toei, not Toriyama... Thanks god is only an anime thing. Well, even in the Broly movie nobody mentions that shitty transformations.

AND!? Toyo is literally just making forms that are the EQUIVALENTS of SSBE and SSBKK. Thery’re the same thing. Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME. And now Goku introduces some technique in the T.o.P manga that doe sthe exact same thing as kaioken but ISN’T kaioken and we NEVER get an exact explanation of what it is. Now we have this new ability from Vegeta that still looks exactly like SSB but is something similar to kaioken.

He’s introducing multiple forms that are confusing to keep track of the fill the SAME ROLES as SSBE and SSBKK from the anime. Might as well just use those forms.

Ya know Toyos take on this helps to meld better with what was shown the Broly movie as there was no SSJBE, or KK, but the aura for SSJB in the movie was different than what was shown previously in the anime, and actually looks very similar to Vegetas form here.

This logic is rather flawed though.

You’re saying that Toyo’s versions of SSBKK and SSBE line up better with the Broly movie because in the Broly movie, Goku and Vegeta.

First off, the SSB arua in the movie looks different than in the anime due to the Shintani art style and Nagamine’s color direction. But mostly the different style. Heck, Gogeta in SSB has an arua that looks like UI sometimes. And Toyo’s version of SSBE looks exactly like his regular SSB which looks similar to the anime (mostly in shape). So i dont see how the arua in the movie can be different than the anime but not the manga in this case.

Second off, Toyo’s version of SSBKK has an arua that looks completely different than anything Goku’s arua looked like in the movie. So we KNOW for a fact that Goku didn’t use Toyo’s version of SSBKK just like how he didn’t use the actual SSBKK. As for Toyo’s version of SSBE, it looks exactly like SSB so at most, you could ASSUME Vegeta uses it in the Broly movie, but there is no real proof.

[Green_Goblin]

I find it unfitting that the fandom had decided that YET TO BE NAMED defuncted Friza soldier is "Raspberry", for all we know that character had died on Namek in filler. Just because someone on the Dragon Ball Wikia had decided that they're the same guy doesn't mean the whole world has to follow it. There were FAR TOO MANY mistakes in that wiki to begin with, and I have been there since 2006, so trust me on that one.

Jumping to conclusions is one of the things this fandom does best. This is just another entry in the list of things people have jumped to conclusions about during Super's run. Some ended up to be right, most didn't.

Aaand his name is Cranberry. Jumping to conclusions ended up giving the wrong answer again, what a surprise.

Told ya! LOL I laughed so hard when I saw his name, I was talking to a friend back when the last chapter was released and told him that that former Frieza soldier will be either named after one of the video games humanoid Frieza soldiers, OR that he'll be Cranberry since that had never been used for a Frieza soldier so far (considering all the berries). Wish you knew Hebrew so I could've posted it here... XD

[AnimeNation101]

Also, you literally said in the page before this one that the previous chapter’s pacing was fine...
So just because this chapter is one you find slow with bad pacing, that doesn’t automatically mean that this arc’s pacing will end up inconsistent no matter what.

First of all, friendo, you should know the chapter I very explicitly referred to as an example in my reply to you (Chapter 43) isn't the previous chapter.

Secondly, yes, it absolutely means that. Chapters 43 and 45 have already set a bad precedent, even if the following chapters pick up their speed. That's inconsistent. I'm not sure why you're trying to dispute the base definition, but the arc is already flip-flopping pretty badly in its plot progression.

OH! From the way you were talking about Chapter 43, I’d assumed you were just talking about this recent chapter (as i dont really follow the numbers). My bad. Still though, I’d say thats more of an inconsistent beginning and not an over all inconsistent arc.

[TKA]

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST.

And they don't need to exist.

They literally add nothing and only happened because Super Saiyan Blue was absolutely abused and played out in the anime. SSB lost all gravitas so they created more bullshit transformations to do things Toyotaro could believably do with just Blue.

[Shaddy]

So this is kind of what I expected. Moro's personality continues to be "y'know....evil", with no real flair or unique qualities, the fight amounted to very little in terms of plot progression (Vegeta didn't even job hard enough to be incapacitated), and the oh-so-mysterious powers amount to basically what #19 did plus some lava snakes.

I'll say that Toyo's action isn't too bad this chapter. There's slightly more room to breathe, though it's still really messy.

Also, I like how there was a fuss about how "This guy totally isn't Raspberry", and his name is Cranberry. That's like introducing a new saiyan named "Vajetah".

[Lord Frieza]

Not quite the high tier magic I had in mind but still cool. Moro comes of more and more as a Shaman style magic user. While using the life energy of a planet is not new, Moro displays a far greater level of control. He able to actually use that energy for direct attacks without wasting his own power. Magma Manipulation is also pretty cool, again not exactly new as Magetta spat similur stuff but again Moro use of the ability is clearly very advanced. I'm very pleased about Moro little reveal at the end, I was worried that he was going to pull a Cell and get his ass kicked and half ye flee. But nope, turns out he had his own ace in the hole and it was better then Vegeta's. This is also what I wanted to see, Moro is weaker then Goku and Vegeta but his magic and smarts let him get an edge over them. Reminds me a little of Haze Shenron but with actual skills and power rather then just being a punching bag to his cheap power kicks in..

[Bullza]

This manga just keeps getting worse and worse by the chapter.

[AnimeNation101]

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST.

And they don't need to exist.

They literally add nothing and only happened because Super Saiyan Blue was absolutely abused and played out in the anime. SSB lost all gravitas so they created more bullshit transformations to do things Toyotaro could believably do with just Blue.

You must have skipped everything i just said and only read why you quoted.

The point IS, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST and Toyo creating his own versions of them which DO NOTHING but confuse people on which form a character is using at a certain time, add NO PROGRESSION OR GROWTH like you mentioned, and, for specifically Toyo’s version of SSBKK, has no explanation for how or what the form’s origins even are or how Goku obtained it.

Not to mention, they both defeat the purpose of Perfected or Completed SSB. Because Perfected/Completed SSB isn’t actually the Completed SSB considering there are higher powers of SSB with Toyo’s version of SSBE and SSBKK. And again, not to mention the whole thing about not leaking ki is thrown out the window.

[AnimeNation101]

Not quite the high tier magic I had in mind but still cool.

I still have hope that Moro has other magical abilities but cant use them because he’s severely lacking his power.

Moro comes of more and more as a Shaman style magic user. While using the life energy of a planet is not new, Moro displays a far greater level of control. He able to actually use that energy for direct attacks without wasting his own power. Magma Manipulation is also pretty cool, again not exactly new as Magetta spat similur stuff but again Moro use of the ability is clearly very advanced. I'm very pleased about Moro little reveal at the end, I was worried that he was going to pull a Cell and get his ass kicked and half ye flee. But nope, turns out he had his own ace in the hole and it was better then Vegeta's. This is also what I wanted to see, Moro is weaker then Goku and Vegeta but his magic and smarts let him get an edge over them. Reminds me a little of Haze Shenron but with actual skills and power rather then just being a punching bag to his cheap power kicks in..

So this is kind of what I expected. Moro's personality continues to be "y'know....evil", with no real flair or unique qualities, the fight amounted to very little in terms of plot progression (Vegeta didn't even job hard enough to be incapacitated), and the oh-so-mysterious powers amount to basically what #19 did plus some lava snakes.

I'll say that Toyo's action isn't too bad this chapter. There's slightly more room to breathe, though it's still really messy.

Also, I like how there was a fuss about how "This guy totally isn't Raspberry", and his name is Cranberry. That's like introducing a new saiyan named "Vajetah".

You know, I've seen people say this and i understand why but... are we sure this is even lava/magma? I know the evidence but, the way its depicted is kinda weird. My original random headcanon was concentrated element energy. But it could also just be a mix of genki and lava or something.

But if he can control lava, does that mean he can use plant-life too? Maybe use vines or some shit to grow and trap people?

[Shaddy]

I mean, it looked like it hardened from being cooled down after Vegeta shot it with...cold...energy...or something.

On a side note, why are elemental abilities not a bigger thing in this franchise? It seems like a no-brainer for fantasy battle series.

[TKA]

You must have skipped everything i just said and only read why you quoted.

Because I chose to quote only that line doesn't mean I didn't read everything you said.

I felt that I sufficiently addressed all of your points.

Toyotaro isn't creating new forms. He's showing the characters' progression whilst keeping Blue relevant. And he's done so while making sense. SSBK is nonsense that exists only to tug at nostalgia, and SSBE is an 11th hour power up because Toei realized that they gave Vegeta the shit end of the stick when they gave Goku SSBK and him nothing.

It's nonsense and I prefer Toyotaro continue to ignore the anime and continuing to just use Blue.