"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Shaddy]

Ah yes, Toyotaro's new forms don't count as new forms, because they're still Super Saiyan Blue despite having changes in visuals, power and name, as opposed to the anime's forms, which are not Super Saiyan Blue because they have changes in visuals, power and name.

Come off it. The only difference between these forms is who drew them. There's nothing about "a stronger version of blue" that makes it at all unique or better when Toyotaro does it.

[Marlowe89]

Ah yes, Toyotaro's new forms don't count as new forms, because they're still Super Saiyan Blue despite having changes in visuals, power and name, as opposed to the anime's forms, which are not Super Saiyan Blue because they have changes in visuals, power and name.

Then you definitely missed the part where the manga's "new forms" A.) don't officially get new names, and B.) are very clearly referred to as strengthened versions of Super Saiyan Blue.

Blue is always just Blue in the manga. Calling its improved variants new forms in the same sense as Toei's actual full-blown transformations (complete with new fanservicey names) is hilariously tone deaf.

[Shaddy]

Well, uh, no? Because they are still different forms. If we are to perceive them as just being "the same form but stronger" we will see it by the fact that they are in the same form, but are stronger. The fact that there's a noticeable distinction at all totally destroys that idea. "Blue but stronger" is just Goku and Vegeta in Rof versus Goku and Vegeta after the Tournament of Power.

[Lord Frieza]

I mean, it looked like it hardened from being cooled down after Vegeta shot it with...cold...energy...or something.

On a side note, why are elemental abilities not a bigger thing in this franchise? It seems like a no-brainer for fantasy battle series.

This is why I felt it was Magma also.

On the subject of elemental powers, yes this tends to be a rather missed opportunity. It’s mainly limited to just flame breath and poison. The only other that jump to mind is the ice bio warrior from movie 2 and the shadow dragons.

[Marlowe89]

If we are to perceive them as just being "the same form but stronger" we will see it by the fact that they are in the same form, but are stronger.

I'm not sure if you're purposely misreading my post or I didn't fully clarify, but that's exactly how it's presented in the manga. The dialogue is fully explicit about referring to Super Saiyan Blue as just Super Saiyan Blue during the following occasions:

1. When Goku "completes" Super Saiyan Blue for the first time and can use a constant 100% of its power against Zamasu

2. When Goku stresses its power by tapping into its reserves during the fight against Jiren

3. When Vegeta strengthens the form with a new aura

Otherwise, there's no fundamental distinction going on; certainly not in the same sense as the anime, which goes out of its way to give names to these transformations and also significantly alter their design (especially in Blue Evolution's case). There is a pretty stark difference in the way they're portrayed in the story, even if they do ultimately offer a greater boost in strength.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Accept Toei’s being less confusing. In the manga however, we have multiple forms of SSB that ALL LOOK BASICALLY THE SAME.

Calm down. Stop thinking of the manga's powerups as transformations. They're not. It's a progression that show's the characters' growth without a need to change their hair colors to sell more toys.

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST. It makes no sense to introduce forms that are the exact equivalents of SSBKK and SSBE in the manga, but both still just look like SSB. It just complicates things.

In the manga, we have SSB, Perfected SSB, the SSB power Goku used which they compared to Kaioken, and the SSB power Vegeta used against Toppo.

And using the “sell more toys” excuse wont work since SSBKK and SSBE were a thing in the anime already and were therefore already having toys sold. The manga ALSO using the forms wouldn’t change that aspect

Perfected SSB was a substitute for SSBKK. I get this. Like you said, it shows progression. But now, these latter 2 forms are exact substitutes form SSBKK and SSBE. Not to mention that latter 2 forms got little to no explanation for what they even ARE or how they came from SSB.

If Perfected SSB is supposed to be the pinnicle of SSB but these latter 2 forms are significantly more powerful but are still SSB, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. Toyo is making things more confusion and complicated for no reason.

These latter 2 forms dont even show character growth and progression. Because again, Goku pulled this new SSB power out of thin air and it was never explained what it REALLY was and Vegeta gets his power exactly like SSBE (except in an inferior way) so it’s as lacking in growth and progression as SSBE anyways.

Not to mention, both of these manga forms go back on what Perfected SSB established with not letting your ki leak.

So again, these manga forms are worse than SSBKK and SSBE.

The Completed SSB remains the pinnacle of the regular SSB we know, Toyotaro has just split into two different versions to make this transformation more difficult to master (one version spends more energy, and the other is more durable and gives a power up), but remains just the SSB (Goku and Vegeta also call it that).

In the case of the transformations that we saw in the ToP of the manga, they are clearly evolved versions of the regular Blue, or variations, the characters even say that (Beerus speaks as Blue's aura has totally changed, suggesting to be an evolution). So there is no confusion, the Ki contained in the body is for the regular Blue, for the Evolved Blue or '' Kaioken Blue '' the rule is not the same, I do not see the inconsistency here (I would still say that Toyotaro explored much more the potential of Blue than the TOEI that quickly created new transformations that surpassed the SSB)

[Shaddy]

eh whatever, I change my mind I am not interested in this discussion

[alakazam^]

Otherwise, there's no fundamental distinction going on; certainly not in the same sense as the anime, which goes out of its way to give names to these transformations and also significantly alter their design (especially in Blue Evolution's case). There is a pretty stark difference in the way they're portrayed in the story, even if they do ultimately offer a greater boost in strength.

Kaiouken isn't a transformation so your point is already moot on that front. Even if it was, giving it a name is out of convenience, not "fanservicey", especially when the name is pretty straightforward.

Blue Kaiouken and Blue Evolution don't exist in-universe, no one calls them anything so your complaint is, again, moot. Even if they were called something in-universe, there's nothing wrong with that and saying otherwise is being dishonest. In fact, as proven by Toriyama's interviews around the time of Battle of Gods and F, everything is "Super Saiyajin". the different numbers and grades are just named out of, again, convenience but are essentially the same thing, only stronger. Blue was named by Whis because of the description they used at the time which was just "blabla Super Saiyajin bla bla Super Saiyajin" and Blue is easily distinguishable from the other forms and Vegeeta just said to Freeza that he too was able to turn into "Super Saiyajin *cues Blue*" .

Also, how can Blue be completed/perfected and still have improvements (with a flashy new aura, even)? That's pretty strange but, thankfully, Toyotarou-sama totally doesn't exchange notes with Toei nor watches that horrible anime so he doesn't name Vegeeta's shell-breaking Blue, which is proof it's not a new form.

[AnimeNation101]

You must have skipped everything i just said and only read why you quoted.

Because I chose to quote only that line doesn't mean I didn't read everything you said.

I felt that I sufficiently addressed all of your points.

Toyotaro isn't creating new forms. He's showing the characters' progression whilst keeping Blue relevant. And he's done so while making sense. SSBK is nonsense that exists only to tug at nostalgia, and SSBE is an 11th hour power up because Toei realized that they gave Vegeta the shit end of the stick when they gave Goku SSBK and him nothing.

It's nonsense and I prefer Toyotaro continue to ignore the anime and continuing to just use Blue.

For one, you have yet to explain how keeping Blue relevant even SHOWS character progression. What about Goku and Vegeta is progressing that isn’t progressing when they unlocked/revealed SSBKK or SSBE.

Really, you haven’t been making any good points. You should really just be saying what the last sentence of the comment I'm replying to says. You dont like the forms and are glad they aren’t being used. But you DON’T have any evidence against why Toyo should use SSBKK and SSBE instead of his confusing, contradictory knock off versions outside of because you dont like it.

[AnimeNation101]

Calm down. Stop thinking of the manga's powerups as transformations. They're not. It's a progression that show's the characters' growth without a need to change their hair colors to sell more toys.

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST. It makes no sense to introduce forms that are the exact equivalents of SSBKK and SSBE in the manga, but both still just look like SSB. It just complicates things.

In the manga, we have SSB, Perfected SSB, the SSB power Goku used which they compared to Kaioken, and the SSB power Vegeta used against Toppo.

And using the “sell more toys” excuse wont work since SSBKK and SSBE were a thing in the anime already and were therefore already having toys sold. The manga ALSO using the forms wouldn’t change that aspect

Perfected SSB was a substitute for SSBKK. I get this. Like you said, it shows progression. But now, these latter 2 forms are exact substitutes form SSBKK and SSBE. Not to mention that latter 2 forms got little to no explanation for what they even ARE or how they came from SSB.

If Perfected SSB is supposed to be the pinnicle of SSB but these latter 2 forms are significantly more powerful but are still SSB, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. Toyo is making things more confusion and complicated for no reason.

These latter 2 forms dont even show character growth and progression. Because again, Goku pulled this new SSB power out of thin air and it was never explained what it REALLY was and Vegeta gets his power exactly like SSBE (except in an inferior way) so it’s as lacking in growth and progression as SSBE anyways.

Not to mention, both of these manga forms go back on what Perfected SSB established with not letting your ki leak.

So again, these manga forms are worse than SSBKK and SSBE.

The Completed SSB remains the pinnacle of the regular SSB we know, Toyotaro has just split into two different versions to make this transformation more difficult to master (one version spends more energy, and the other is more durable and gives a power up), but remains just the SSB (Goku and Vegeta also call it that).

In the case of the transformations that we saw in the ToP of the manga, they are clearly evolved versions of the regular Blue, or variations, the characters even say that (Beerus speaks as Blue's aura has totally changed, suggesting to be an evolution). So there is no confusion, the Ki contained in the body is for the regular Blue, for the Evolved Blue or '' Kaioken Blue '' the rule is not the same, I do not see the inconsistency here (I would still say that Toyotaro explored much more the potential of Blue than the TOEI that quickly created new transformations that surpassed the SSB)

Here are some things that completely make what ur saying crumble.

1. This SSBE knock off that Vegeta unlocks in the T.o.P and the SSBKK knock off that Goku uses in the T.o.P are both established to be more powerful forms than Completed SSB. So CSSB aint the pinnicle anymore and that doesn’t make sense

2. The main gimmick of CSSB is that you don’t let your ki leak, both the SSBE and SSBKK knock offs let ki leak. Yet they’re both superior in power and speed.


These knock off forms are completely contradict CSSB. Which sucks because I'm actually fine with CSSB. Its a cool concept. But these knock offs are just examples of Toyo being difficult and making things more confusing to follow whilst contradicting himself. Not to mention the knock off of SSBKK has no explanation of its origins. It just comes out of nowhere as something that SSB can apparently do.

[superfan2024]

This manga just keeps getting worse and worse by the chapter.

Ahhh, DB fans never cease to amaze me... What a shame.

[Marlowe89]

I feel like we're trotting semantics at this point, so I'll just leave it at "neither Toyotaro nor merchandising and supplementary materials refer to them as anything other than Super Saiyan Blue, and the dialogue also refers to them simply as Super Saiyan Blue, so the manga didn't intend for them to be anything other than Blue". You decide on whether you agree with that assessment, but this is too pedantic on both sides to be worth the continued argument.

But you DON’T have any evidence against why Toyo should use SSBKK and SSBE instead of his confusing, contradictory knock off versions outside of because you dont like it.

I won't speak for TKA, but I'm more than happy to offer my own thoughts as for why the manga's "knock offs" are less egregious. There's a much more interesting discussion to be had there.

Blue Kaioken is bad because it did more harm to Super's macro narrative than good. Its drawback never amounts to anything in the story outside of filler nonsense about Goku temporarily becoming weak (which also never goes anywhere, he just recovers and that's that) and by the Universe Survival arc, the form is nonchalantly pulled out of the bag without a lick of consequence whenever he's in a pinch. More importantly, its large multiplier rather excessively inflated the show's power scaling to the extent that it retroactively ruined the themes of the BoG arc, namely in how Goku was able to give Beerus some small semblance of a challenge with the God form alone. In the vast majority of instances following the Universe 6 tournament, it doesn't seem to do anything more than demonstrate that Goku is using his "full full full power for real this time!", which doesn't really do shit for the story that Blue itself wasn't already striving to achieve.

Conversely, in the manga, Goku's power-stressed Blue is used exactly once, and only to draw attention to how much of an insane brick wall Jiren is. Instead of being overused for the purpose of abundant pandering, it's expressly introduced to gel with the underlying themes of Goku and Jiren's main conflict while also emphasizing Goku's personal obstacles. That's it. You can certainly contend that it conflicts with the completed Blue representing the apex of Blue's power, but I think that's a minor price to pay for what it successfully brought to the table in a narrative sense.

Blue Evolution is bad because it was an obvious "oh shit, we need a bandaid to let Vegeta catch up to Goku's Blue Kaioken" on Toei's part, but aesthetically, it clashes with Toriyama's design philosophy and ultimately clashes with itself.

Toriyama's minimalist approach comes down to two things: "less is more" and "bigger isn't better". That's what he did with the final forms for Freeza, Cell, and Boo. That's what he did to supplement the fact that "Grade 4" and Super Saiyan 2 were fundamentally superior to Grades 2 and 3. That's what he did with the god forms. A number of interviews go over this process in pretty excruciating detail. He doesn't do bulky transformations unless he's intentionally trying to demonstrate their weaknesses or unique character gimmicks, or otherwise show how easily superseded they can be.

Blue Evolution is a direct betrayal of that concept; it's the TV anime's ultimate Saiyan transformation so far, but it takes Toriyama's effective use of subversion and completely throws it out the window in favor of permanently bulging veins and generic BIG STRONK muscles that the deliberately unsuccessful Grades 2-3 had. Then, haphazardly, it throws in these large kawaii pupils that just look jarring on a roided-out Vegeta. It's an eyesore, it's played too sfraight to fit the original author's style, and it's only mildly amusing in an ironic "I'm laughing at him not with him" kind of way. It sure does reinforce what a joke this franchise tends to be without the people who understand why the overly macho stuff was usually done to subvert expectations.

Toyotaro was smart to avoid it, despite my own problems with giving Blue another arbitrary boost that it didn't need in both versions of the Tournament of Power, and Toriyama was smart to stick to his guns by excluding it from the new movie. I can only hope it'll disappear for good in future material.

[nato25]

The chapter is out officially, unless I'm oblivious Vegeta just went normal SSB, no new transformation to speak of.

Moro definitely looking like a real threat, loved the end of the chapter but I found the fighting very hard to follow.

[OLKv3]

The chapter is out officially, unless I'm oblivious Vegeta just went normal SSB, no new transformation to speak of.

Moro definitely looking like a real threat, loved the end of the chapter but I found the fighting very hard to follow.

It's not normal SSB, it's the enhanced form he used against Jiren.
I loved the action in this chapter, it's begging to be animated
The ending has me wondering how will they escape with the Namekians?

[superfan2024]

Am I the only one hoping that God ki gets axed by the end of this arc or at least a future arc so that Goku, Vegeta, and possibly the rest of the Saiyans could try to unlock the humanoid Oozaru form used by Broly?

[AnimeNation101]

I feel like we're trotting semantics at this point, so I'll just leave it at "neither Toyotaro nor merchandising and supplementary materials refer to them as anything other than Super Saiyan Blue, and the dialogue also refers to them simply as Super Saiyan Blue, so the manga didn't intend for them to be anything other than Blue". You decide on whether you agree with that assessment, but this is too pedantic on both sides to be worth the continued argument.

But you DON’T have any evidence against why Toyo should use SSBKK and SSBE instead of his confusing, contradictory knock off versions outside of because you dont like it.

I won't speak for TKA, but I'm more than happy to offer my own thoughts as for why the manga's "knock offs" are less egregious. There's a much more interesting discussion to be had there.

Blue Kaioken is bad because it did more harm to Super's macro narrative than good. Its drawback never amounts to anything in the story outside of filler nonsense about Goku temporarily becoming weak (which also never goes anywhere, he just recovers and that's that) and by the Universe Survival arc, the form is nonchalantly pulled out of the bag without a lick of consequence whenever he's in a pinch. More importantly, its large multiplier rather excessively inflated the show's power scaling to the extent that it retroactively ruined the themes of the BoG arc, namely in how Goku was able to give Beerus some small semblance of a challenge with the God form alone. In the vast majority of instances following the Universe 6 tournament, it doesn't seem to do anything more than demonstrate that Goku is using his "full full full power for real this time!", which doesn't really do shit for the story that Blue itself wasn't already striving to achieve.

Conversely, in the manga, Goku's power-stressed Blue is used exactly once, and only to draw attention to how much of an insane brick wall Jiren is. Instead of being overused for the purpose of abundant pandering, it's expressly introduced to gel with the underlying themes of Goku and Jiren's main conflict while also emphasizing Goku's personal obstacles. That's it. You can certainly contend that it conflicts with the completed Blue representing the apex of Blue's power, but I think that's a minor price to pay for what it successfully brought to the table in a narrative sense.

Blue Evolution is bad because it was an obvious "oh shit, we need a bandaid to let Vegeta catch up to Goku's Blue Kaioken" on Toei's part, but aesthetically, it clashes with Toriyama's design philosophy and ultimately clashes with itself.

Toriyama's minimalist approach comes down to two things: "less is more" and "bigger isn't better". That's what he did with the final forms for Freeza, Cell, and Boo. That's what he did to supplement the fact that "Grade 4" and Super Saiyan 2 were fundamentally superior to Grades 2 and 3. That's what he did with the god forms. A number of interviews go over this process in pretty excruciating detail. He doesn't do bulky transformations unless he's intentionally trying to demonstrate their weaknesses or unique character gimmicks, or otherwise show how easily superseded they can be.

Blue Evolution is a direct betrayal of that concept; it's the TV anime's ultimate Saiyan transformation so far, but it takes Toriyama's effective use of subversion and completely throws it out the window in favor of permanently bulging veins and generic BIG STRONK muscles that the deliberately unsuccessful Grades 2-3 had. Then, haphazardly, it throws in these large kawaii pupils that just look jarring on a roided-out Vegeta. It's an eyesore, it's played too sfraight to fit the original author's style, and it's only mildly amusing in an ironic "I'm laughing at him not with him" kind of way. It sure does reinforce what a joke this franchise tends to be without the people who understand why the overly macho stuff was usually done to subvert expectations.

Toyotaro was smart to avoid it, despite my own problems with giving Blue another arbitrary boost that it didn't need in both versions of the Tournament of Power, and Toriyama was smart to stick to his guns by excluding it from the new movie. I can only hope it'll disappear for good in future material.

This is cool and all but...

I’m asking why you’re against Toyo using SSBKK and SSBE instead of his knock offs in the manga, since SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST.

Your first paragraph only describes why you have a problem with how SSBKK was used in the anime. And then you proceed to show how much better the knockoff is used in the manga. But all I'm asking is for why you’re against SSBKK replacing the knock off. That would mean that SSBKK would be used exactly like how the knockoff was. So how SSBKK was used in the anime doesn’t really matter in the context of the question.

Then you bash SSBE by calling it a bandaid by Toei but it seems you forget that Toyo’s knock off of it is just Toyo copying the concept that you bashed for the same reason. A bandaid to increase Vegeta’s strength to that of Goku with his SSBKK and on top of that, a bandaid to momentarily let Vegeta compete with Jiren. So that point of yours cancels out.

Your Toriyama minimalist point is the ONLY good point I've seen throughout this whole discussion. But again, if thats the reason Toyo did this instead of just going with the forms that ALREADY EXIST, he followed the minimalism in exchange for confusion, contradiction, and a lack of explanation. That seems like an unbalanced exchange.

[AnimeNation101]

Am I the only one hoping that God ki gets axed by the end of this arc or at least a future arc so that Goku, Vegeta, and possibly the rest of the Saiyans could try to unlock the humanoid Oozaru form used by Broly?

Why cant we just keep things unique? Why does everyone have to have the coolest new form?

What I’d rather have is let U6 saiyans get an ssj4-like form. Broly keeps his green haired berserk form. Goku and Vegeta keep Blue and UI. Gohan keeps Ultimate. Trunks and Goten will probably always be reduced to having to use Gotenks but maybe give them Ultimate or Rage like Future Trunks got. And Future Trunks had Rage.

[Kanassa]

Its drawback never amounts to anything in the story outside of filler nonsense about Goku temporarily becoming weak (which also never goes anywhere, he just recovers and that's that)

The filler nonsense (What makes it nonsense, I don't know) has Goku facing the full ramifications of using the technique without fully developing it, showing him how it can permanently cripple him if he's reckless, recovers and then uses this as a reason why he only uses Kaioken once for a second in the Zamasu Arc and then is able to use it efficiently in the TOP.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Thats not the problem. The problem is, SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST. It makes no sense to introduce forms that are the exact equivalents of SSBKK and SSBE in the manga, but both still just look like SSB. It just complicates things.

In the manga, we have SSB, Perfected SSB, the SSB power Goku used which they compared to Kaioken, and the SSB power Vegeta used against Toppo.

And using the “sell more toys” excuse wont work since SSBKK and SSBE were a thing in the anime already and were therefore already having toys sold. The manga ALSO using the forms wouldn’t change that aspect

Perfected SSB was a substitute for SSBKK. I get this. Like you said, it shows progression. But now, these latter 2 forms are exact substitutes form SSBKK and SSBE. Not to mention that latter 2 forms got little to no explanation for what they even ARE or how they came from SSB.

If Perfected SSB is supposed to be the pinnicle of SSB but these latter 2 forms are significantly more powerful but are still SSB, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. Toyo is making things more confusion and complicated for no reason.

These latter 2 forms dont even show character growth and progression. Because again, Goku pulled this new SSB power out of thin air and it was never explained what it REALLY was and Vegeta gets his power exactly like SSBE (except in an inferior way) so it’s as lacking in growth and progression as SSBE anyways.

Not to mention, both of these manga forms go back on what Perfected SSB established with not letting your ki leak.

So again, these manga forms are worse than SSBKK and SSBE.

The Completed SSB remains the pinnacle of the regular SSB we know, Toyotaro has just split into two different versions to make this transformation more difficult to master (one version spends more energy, and the other is more durable and gives a power up), but remains just the SSB (Goku and Vegeta also call it that).

In the case of the transformations that we saw in the ToP of the manga, they are clearly evolved versions of the regular Blue, or variations, the characters even say that (Beerus speaks as Blue's aura has totally changed, suggesting to be an evolution). So there is no confusion, the Ki contained in the body is for the regular Blue, for the Evolved Blue or '' Kaioken Blue '' the rule is not the same, I do not see the inconsistency here (I would still say that Toyotaro explored much more the potential of Blue than the TOEI that quickly created new transformations that surpassed the SSB)

Here are some things that completely make what ur saying crumble.

1. This SSBE knock off that Vegeta unlocks in the T.o.P and the SSBKK knock off that Goku uses in the T.o.P are both established to be more powerful forms than Completed SSB. So CSSB aint the pinnicle anymore and that doesn’t make sense

2. The main gimmick of CSSB is that you don’t let your ki leak, both the SSBE and SSBKK knock offs let ki leak. Yet they’re both superior in power and speed.


These knock off forms are completely contradict CSSB. Which sucks because I'm actually fine with CSSB. Its a cool concept. But these knock offs are just examples of Toyo being difficult and making things more confusing to follow whilst contradicting himself. Not to mention the knock off of SSBKK has no explanation of its origins. It just comes out of nowhere as something that SSB can apparently do.

1 - You did not understand. I made a distinction between regular Blue and Blue evolved. Completed SSB is still just the Blue, but it is at its pinnacle with power and strength control. Blue evolved shown in ToP does not fit into the regular Blue, it's an evolution, an enhancement, so that's why CSSB is the pinnacle of SSB

2- So as Blue evolved is different from regular Blue, it makes no sense you try to apply the rules from one transformation to another. Regular Blue requires Ki to be contained within the body to use its maximum potential, but Evolved Blue, as an evolution, consists of something different to increase Vegeta's power, and has a totally different aura. So you can not say that Evolved Blue does not make sense using normal Blue concepts, they are different ways of using power

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaioken

[AnimeNation101]

The Completed SSB remains the pinnacle of the regular SSB we know, Toyotaro has just split into two different versions to make this transformation more difficult to master (one version spends more energy, and the other is more durable and gives a power up), but remains just the SSB (Goku and Vegeta also call it that).

In the case of the transformations that we saw in the ToP of the manga, they are clearly evolved versions of the regular Blue, or variations, the characters even say that (Beerus speaks as Blue's aura has totally changed, suggesting to be an evolution). So there is no confusion, the Ki contained in the body is for the regular Blue, for the Evolved Blue or '' Kaioken Blue '' the rule is not the same, I do not see the inconsistency here (I would still say that Toyotaro explored much more the potential of Blue than the TOEI that quickly created new transformations that surpassed the SSB)

Here are some things that completely make what ur saying crumble.

1. This SSBE knock off that Vegeta unlocks in the T.o.P and the SSBKK knock off that Goku uses in the T.o.P are both established to be more powerful forms than Completed SSB. So CSSB aint the pinnicle anymore and that doesn’t make sense

2. The main gimmick of CSSB is that you don’t let your ki leak, both the SSBE and SSBKK knock offs let ki leak. Yet they’re both superior in power and speed.


These knock off forms are completely contradict CSSB. Which sucks because I'm actually fine with CSSB. Its a cool concept. But these knock offs are just examples of Toyo being difficult and making things more confusing to follow whilst contradicting himself. Not to mention the knock off of SSBKK has no explanation of its origins. It just comes out of nowhere as something that SSB can apparently do.

1 - You did not understand. I made a distinction between regular Blue and Blue evolved. Completed SSB is still just the Blue, but it is at its pinnacle with power and strength control. Blue evolved shown in ToP does not fit into the regular Blue, it's an evolution, an enhancement, so that's why CSSB is the pinnacle of SSB

2- So as Blue evolved is different from regular Blue, it makes no sense you try to apply the rules from one transformation to another. Regular Blue requires Ki to be contained within the body to use its maximum potential, but Evolved Blue, as an evolution, consists of something different to increase Vegeta's power, and has a totally different aura. So you can not say that Evolved Blue does not make sense using normal Blue concepts, they are different ways of using power

And for a manga, it's perfectly possible to distinguish the regular Blue to the Evolved Blue because auras are totally different, and this is a very eye-catching visual aspect (in chapter 45 we clearly see the two stages of Blue), and Evolved Blue already was established as much stronger than regular Blue, there is no confusion here. The same goes for Blue Kaioken

Here’s the thing though. The forms were never stated in the manga to be Blue Evolved. In the end, its just a headcanon on your part that what Goku and Vegeta use are evolved SSB forms. And not 1 but 2 different evolved SSBs. Whats the explanation for that?

But lets say it was evolved Blue. That logic from your second point makes no sense. CSSB works with you containing and harnessing your aura inside your body to increase your power. Nothing suggests that an Evolved Blue COULDN’T do that. In fact, SSB being able to do that makes it MORE LIKELY that an Evolved SSB can do the same. Because and Evolved SSB is just an upgraded SSB form.