"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:45 pm

Draconic wrote:Tournaments have always been the best arcs in Dragon Ball. The fact Grimlock is shitting on them is everything you need to know about how relevant his opinion is. The 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais are better than Online's shit. The Tournament of Power shits all over the Prison Planet arc. Zamasu alone is better than anything out of the Dark Dragon Balls arc. Get real.

Throwing out "TURNMENTZ GOOD? BLEARGH" is laughable

I think the more important distinction is that constantly judging arcs by their premise rather than their content is no way to go about discussing a series. It is all in the execution. You could have the best idea in the world and it wouldn't matter if your execution is trash, and Heroes' ideas are the equivalent of "let's give THIS existing character an existing form!", rather than anything that would actually be interesting or meaningful to the story. Super does that plenty of the time too, but it also has new characters with personality, dynamics with existing characters, some actual attention payed to the original lore and ideas of the series, and a sense of actual fun that even Z sometimes fumbled. This is why you do not see games like Neverdead on anyone's "best ever" lists. It sounded like a great idea for a game, but the product was made out of duct tape and decade-old french fries. That's what Heroes is.

If you even look at a single minute of Heroes' story you can tell the massive difference in writing quality between it and any other Dragon Ball series, including GT. It has nothing to say, no emotion, no heart put into it. Everything just happens. No ties to anything Dragon Ball was ever about before except "fight though", no personal stakes for anyone involved, the characters don't even act like themselves half the time. They're bland stand-ins that could be anybody for all their personalities actually play into their interactions. Even if it was a show full of good ideas (which it really isn't), it does absolutely fucking nothing with any of them. Oh, a giant hybrid planet that Goku and the others have to explore? Better have the exact same fights we could have anywhere else and never see anything interesting about the setting. A saiyan whose ki can turn people evil? Better have Goku get affected for like 3 seconds and then it doesn't even matter. Fusion? As pointless as it is in the fun continuity. Great apes? Oh boy, we haven't found a way to turn THOSE boring yet! (That's a lie of course, GT did) It's endless mindless emotionless battles with no tension, no movement, no ambitions, a series on total autopilot with most of the worst staff from Super just to show you how much anyone creating it actually cares about it.

Tournaments of course, totally do have stories. A tournament is nothing but a setup to quickly get into the action, a story is a course of events with twists and turns, characters that interact with one another, fight with the narrative that says they should fail, change over time, become different people than what they started as. Tournaments don't remove any of that, they're just a simple structure for what fights occur between what characters. If you honestly say a tournament is inherently not a story, you're saying that Tien's character arc didn't exist. That Piccolo's never started somewhere. That Goku's struggle to win a single competition over like 150 episodes of Dragon Ball wasn't real and never mattered. It's an insult to the series legacy, and to the intelligence of the people you're arguing with.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:53 pm

TKA wrote:Fans saying Heroes is good in terms of story is what I can and will criticize though. Because it isn't. At all.
It's not that it's story is good because it's not about to be fleshed out to the same extent.

It's just that the story concepts and the ideas are more interesting. The Dark Empire Saga which heavily featured the demons, the Demon Realm, a group of different antagonists, the Time Patrol, Time travel etc...is more interesting than what they've got going on for this Saga.

If you were to sum up the basic premise for any of the three major Heroes sagas and then this Galactic Patrol Saga in a paragraph then it's the one in Super that is the least interesting.

This Moro in the manga is a worse villain than Fu in the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:11 pm

Draconic wrote:Tournaments have always been the best arcs in Dragon Ball. The fact Grimlock is shitting on them is everything you need to know about how relevant his opinion is. The 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais are better than Online's shit. The Tournament of Power shits all over the Prison Planet arc. Zamasu alone is better than anything out of the Dark Dragon Balls arc. Get real.

Throwing out "TURNMENTZ GOOD? BLEARGH" is laughable
In Dragon Ball maybe because back then the fights were creative in fun but overall no I would disagree. I hope I don’t see another tournament arc for a long time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:12 pm

Bullza wrote: This Moro in the manga is a worse villain than Fu in the anime.
Moro and Fu have equally flat personalities, but Moro is at least a magic goat, while Fu is just some purple asshole with ugly yellow jorts.
Kinokima wrote: In Dragon Ball maybe because back then the fights were creative in fun but overall no I would disagree. I hope I don’t see another tournament arc for a long time.
Nobody's saying they're not overused and formulaic, god no, I'm tired of them too. But claiming they literally don't count as stories or that something as soulless as Heroes is better, is beyond laughable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Kinokima wrote: In Dragon Ball maybe because back then the fights were creative in fun but overall no I would disagree. I hope I don’t see another tournament arc for a long time.
Nobody's saying they're not overused and formulaic, god no, I'm tired of them too. But claiming they literally don't count as stories or that something as soulless as Heroes is better, is beyond laughable.

Well that isn’t what I was disagreeing with. I was disagreeing that they have always been the best arcs of Dragon Ball (the franchise as a whole not the original series to clarify)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:43 pm

No more Tournaments. DB has lost its touch when it comes to them as standalone arcs.

The only time I’d want a tournament is it it was just a part of an arc and not the main event. And it has to fit well within the plot of the arc.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:51 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Here’s the thing though. The forms were never stated in the manga to be Blue Evolved. In the end, its just a headcanon on your part that what Goku and Vegeta use are evolved SSB forms. And not 1 but 2 different evolved SSBs. Whats the explanation for that?

But lets say it was evolved Blue. That logic from your second point makes no sense. CSSB works with you containing and harnessing your aura inside your body to increase your power. Nothing suggests that an Evolved Blue COULDN’T do that. In fact, SSB being able to do that makes it MORE LIKELY that an Evolved SSB can do the same. Because and Evolved SSB is just an upgraded SSB form.
The fact that the transformation does not receive a name does not mean that it is not an evolution

First, one of the signs of a new transformation or evolution in relation to something earlier is the visual aspect, and Beerus quickly notes that Vegeta's aura has completely changed
Later, Jiren thought that Vegeta was hiding power against Toppo after he awakened this new form, but the Saiyajin clearly responds that his race evolves during a fight (suggesting an evolution again in relation to the regular Blue)
Whis also says that Vegeta was evolving in his own way
So the new Blue that Vegeta woke up has no relation to regular Blue or CSSB concepts, it's something different, new, much more powerful. Evolved Blue does not need to follow the rule of containing the Ki in the body to get stronger, it's just a different power up.
And what Goku uses is not an evolved Blue like Vegeta's, it's just a desperate attempt to gain more power by elevating his Ki to the point of almost blowing his body. Goku was ignoring the principles of CSSB and trying to use something similar to Kaioken because he thought that was the solution (even some people think it really was the Kaioken)
Ok. Lets say it IS Blue Evolved. Same concept as the anime. Just looks different.

Where does it say that Evolved SUPER SAIYAN BLUE has no relation to SUPER SAIYAN BLUE? The whole point of EVOLVING from something is that you’re advancing into a superior form from that original something.

Its like how the rules of power and Ki in SSJ work exactly like how they do in SSJ2 and SSJ3. You transform and get a power multiplier but the forms drain your ki, Why would a technique that works in SSB NOT WORK in an Evolved SSB? Especially when Evolved SSB turns out to just be a more powerful and faster SSB. If Evolved SSB WASN’T related to SSB, then it WOULDN’T have SSB in the name and WOULDN’T look the same as SSB with a slight change in arua.

And you literally say in your post in the page before that Toyo’s kaioken blue knock off is also an evolved blue. But now here you are saying the knockoff isn’t an evolved SSB but just an attempt to increase power buy elevating ki.
I never said that the form used by Goku in ToP was the same as Evolved Blue. In fact, I always separated the two transformations, just said that the Blue Kaioken of the manga was a variation of the Blue. Anyway, it's obvious that the form of Goku and Vegeta are not the same.

And the point here is that you're judging Evolved Blue / Kaioken Blue as incoherent transformations based on the CSSB rules, which does not make sense. Concentrating the Ki inside the body was just one of the ways that Goku thought of ending Blue's energy expenditure and using its full potential. In ToP, in a moment of desperation, he just looked for another way to gain power quickly through Blue, as he did with CSSB before

In Vegeta's case it was a burst of anger, which really resulted in a new transformation. Vegeta doesn't have to contain the aura of Evolved Blue to gain power or to overcome some of the disadvantage of the transformation as it did with regular Blue, precisely because they are different forms and concepts
LightBing wrote:Overall this chapter was weak. Felt too formulaic in a bad sense for me and lacking inspiration in it's formula.

The Bad:
The chapter felt unnecessary for most of it. The scope of Moro's energy draining technique is new information but all this to show it? It wasn't needed, it's like the chapter forced itself to end on a cliffhanger which resulted in a dragged chapter.
Vegeta returning to base before finishing Moro felt like plot-induced stupidity just to set up the final sequence.
Moro's fighting style being unimaginative.

The Good:
Moro's ability is extremely overpowered, it offers a new challenge to Goku and Vegeta. That's something interesting to look forward, there's a bunch of ways they can go about it.
Moro maintaining his calm, his wise old man persona is so far being maintained.
I see this Vegeta scene differently.

Notice that on the same page where he returns to his base form, Goku notices the leaves of the falling Namek trees and he apparently feeling weak. In my vision, Vegeta felt that he spent a lot of energy facing Moro and returned to his normal form (not realizing that his energy was actually being stolen).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:54 pm

Shaddy wrote:I think the more important distinction is that constantly judging arcs by their premise rather than their content is no way to go about discussing a series. It is all in the execution. You could have the best idea in the world and it wouldn't matter if your execution is trash, and Heroes' ideas are the equivalent of "let's give THIS existing character an existing form!", rather than anything that would actually be interesting or meaningful to the story. Super does that plenty of the time too, but it also has new characters with personality, dynamics with existing characters, some actual attention payed to the original lore and ideas of the series, and a sense of actual fun that even Z sometimes fumbled. This is why you do not see games like Neverdead on anyone's "best ever" lists. It sounded like a great idea for a game, but the product was made out of duct tape and decade-old french fries. That's what Heroes is.

If you even look at a single minute of Heroes' story you can tell the massive difference in writing quality between it and any other Dragon Ball series, including GT. It has nothing to say, no emotion, no heart put into it. Everything just happens. No ties to anything Dragon Ball was ever about before except "fight though", no personal stakes for anyone involved, the characters don't even act like themselves half the time. They're bland stand-ins that could be anybody for all their personalities actually play into their interactions. Even if it was a show full of good ideas (which it really isn't), it does absolutely fucking nothing with any of them. Oh, a giant hybrid planet that Goku and the others have to explore? Better have the exact same fights we could have anywhere else and never see anything interesting about the setting. A saiyan whose ki can turn people evil? Better have Goku get affected for like 3 seconds and then it doesn't even matter. Fusion? As pointless as it is in the fun continuity. Great apes? Oh boy, we haven't found a way to turn THOSE boring yet! (That's a lie of course, GT did) It's endless mindless emotionless battles with no tension, no movement, no ambitions, a series on total autopilot with most of the worst staff from Super just to show you how much anyone creating it actually cares about it.

Tournaments of course, totally do have stories. A tournament is nothing but a setup to quickly get into the action, a story is a course of events with twists and turns, characters that interact with one another, fight with the narrative that says they should fail, change over time, become different people than what they started as. Tournaments don't remove any of that, they're just a simple structure for what fights occur between what characters. If you honestly say a tournament is inherently not a story, you're saying that Tien's character arc didn't exist. That Piccolo's never started somewhere. That Goku's struggle to win a single competition over like 150 episodes of Dragon Ball wasn't real and never mattered. It's an insult to the series legacy, and to the intelligence of the people you're arguing with.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I drives me up the goddamn wall when I hear people say that one arc is better than the other solely because of it's premise rather than what kind of story it actually manages to produce based off said premise. Like, the concept of the Evil Dragons in GT still stands, in my opinion, as one of the most ingenious narrative ideas that Dragon Ball has ever come up with. But the Evil Dragons arc itself was unwatchable at its worst and mediocre at its best because the arc horribly managed that golden nugget of an idea.

Conversely, I thought the idea of "Evil Goku" was overdone, overplayed and would be total trite when the Future Trunks arc was revealed. And Goku Black ended up being one of the best things to happen to the Dragon Ball franchise in over 20 years, and the Future Trunks arc was pretty damn good, if quite flawed.

Execution is always more important than the premise.

And, yeah, I hate to sound like an asshole, but saying that tournaments don't have a story is just plain ignorance. Having a goal that shifts and/or molds your personality, or having a character arc in general that is centered in the setting of the tournament itself, is a story. And every tournament in Dragon Ball has that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Draconic wrote:Tournaments have always been the best arcs in Dragon Ball. The fact Grimlock is shitting on them is everything you need to know about how relevant his opinion is. The 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais are better than Online's shit. The Tournament of Power shits all over the Prison Planet arc. Zamasu alone is better than anything out of the Dark Dragon Balls arc. Get real.

Throwing out "TURNMENTZ GOOD? BLEARGH" is laughable
I do like the tournament arcs, but saying they have always been the best is debatable. The red ribbon army arc and King Piccolo arc were solid. The Frieza saga is easily the most iconic of the franchise and the entire series seemed to build up to that point. The Cell saga is also a fan favorite (the Cell games doesn't count as a tournament). The Black arc is arguably the best of Super, though I enjoyed the ToP more, however the U6 arc was kind of weak. I would say the BoG arc/movie and RoF movie were both better than the U6 arc. I definitely don't think tournaments should be taken away, and I think they can be highlights of the series, but I wouldn't say "always the best".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Shaddy wrote:Moro and Fu have equally flat personalities, but Moro is at least a magic goat, while Fu is just some purple asshole with ugly yellow jorts.
Fu has a wealth of personality compares to Moro who has next to no personality. Jiren had more personality than Moro.

Fu also at least looks like a Dragon Ball character. Moro...yeah he's a goat. It'd be surprising if Toriyama even designed that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:57 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
The fact that the transformation does not receive a name does not mean that it is not an evolution

First, one of the signs of a new transformation or evolution in relation to something earlier is the visual aspect, and Beerus quickly notes that Vegeta's aura has completely changed
Later, Jiren thought that Vegeta was hiding power against Toppo after he awakened this new form, but the Saiyajin clearly responds that his race evolves during a fight (suggesting an evolution again in relation to the regular Blue)
Whis also says that Vegeta was evolving in his own way
So the new Blue that Vegeta woke up has no relation to regular Blue or CSSB concepts, it's something different, new, much more powerful. Evolved Blue does not need to follow the rule of containing the Ki in the body to get stronger, it's just a different power up.
And what Goku uses is not an evolved Blue like Vegeta's, it's just a desperate attempt to gain more power by elevating his Ki to the point of almost blowing his body. Goku was ignoring the principles of CSSB and trying to use something similar to Kaioken because he thought that was the solution (even some people think it really was the Kaioken)
Ok. Lets say it IS Blue Evolved. Same concept as the anime. Just looks different.

Where does it say that Evolved SUPER SAIYAN BLUE has no relation to SUPER SAIYAN BLUE? The whole point of EVOLVING from something is that you’re advancing into a superior form from that original something.

Its like how the rules of power and Ki in SSJ work exactly like how they do in SSJ2 and SSJ3. You transform and get a power multiplier but the forms drain your ki, Why would a technique that works in SSB NOT WORK in an Evolved SSB? Especially when Evolved SSB turns out to just be a more powerful and faster SSB. If Evolved SSB WASN’T related to SSB, then it WOULDN’T have SSB in the name and WOULDN’T look the same as SSB with a slight change in arua.

And you literally say in your post in the page before that Toyo’s kaioken blue knock off is also an evolved blue. But now here you are saying the knockoff isn’t an evolved SSB but just an attempt to increase power buy elevating ki.
I never said that the form used by Goku in ToP was the same as Evolved Blue. In fact, I always separated the two transformations, just said that the Blue Kaioken of the manga was a variation of the Blue. Anyway, it's obvious that the form of Goku and Vegeta are not the same.

And the point here is that you're judging Evolved Blue / Kaioken Blue as incoherent transformations based on the CSSB rules, which does not make sense. Concentrating the Ki inside the body was just one of the ways that Goku thought of ending Blue's energy expenditure and using its full potential. In ToP, in a moment of desperation, he just looked for another way to gain power quickly through Blue, as he did with CSSB before

In Vegeta's case it was a burst of anger, which really resulted in a new transformation. Vegeta doesn't have to contain the aura of Evolved Blue to gain power or to overcome some of the disadvantage of the transformation as it did with regular Blue, precisely because they are different forms and concepts

Bro. Thats not what is said. I said that YOU SAID, in a previous post that Manga Goku’s SSBKK knock off was an evolved SSB form. Thats what you said before.

As for Vegeta, the argument is pointless then. And I've just now realzied it. Because I'm arguing that Toyo should just use SSBE rather than a knock off form. But ur saying the form Vegeta unlocks IS SSBE basically. So if thats the case, everything else doesn’t matter when it comes to my complaints against Toyo using a knock of of SSBE. Accept that the design probbably should have had a distinct look to not confuse people.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:23 pm

I think it’s funny how people act like blue evolution in the anime ISN’T an extension of blue but just a “new form” despite it clearly being an evolved version of blue just like in the anime. Just because he gained pupils and a slight muscle mass doesn’t mean it’s not an extension of blue. Also, an official name wasn’t given in the anime just like in the manga...what Vegeta uses in the manga is the equivalent...it’s clear as day off of the aura alone minus the sparkles. In regards to the Goku Kaio-Ken debate, the fact that it’s mentioned in chapter 40 means it’s essentially the same no matter how you slice it. Both power ups in the manga are power ups over blue just as blue Kaio-Ken and evolution are power ups of blue in the anime. Official material showing clear parallels>people who want to discredit the similarities simply because they don’t like blue evo/Kaio-Ken.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:24 pm

So far I'm not liking this arc. This chapter especially...Doesn't seem Toriyama-like. Correct me but the magic doesn't seem to have that goofy Toriyama flavor. Just absorbing and flinging the energy back does seem like Toyotaro is writing this arc. There is no diversity, Vegeta is talking a little too much for me about being a hero; caring for the well being of Namekians. Vegeta using a feint on Moro could be a call back to his classic Android 19 heyday where he pretended he had no energy. Or maybe Piccolo goading Cell to talk...Still I'm not feeling this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:35 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Miracles wrote: As for the discussion about the different forms/power ups between anime and manga. They don't matter since Toriyama doesn't acknowledge them
I don’t get it when people say this. The forms from the anime and manga DO matter because the 2 ways we get the story are through the manga and the anime. Toriyama may write the outlines with no transformations but the outlines aren’t a main source from which we consume the story content. We’ve never EVEN SEEN them before. What we get are the finished products from the manga and anime. And since THEY have transformations, the transformations and matter enough to be discussed like so.

Thats my opinion anyway.
I also agree with this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:44 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:I feel like we're trotting semantics at this point, so I'll just leave it at "neither Toyotaro nor merchandising and supplementary materials refer to them as anything other than Super Saiyan Blue, and the dialogue also refers to them simply as Super Saiyan Blue, so the manga didn't intend for them to be anything other than Blue". You decide on whether you agree with that assessment, but this is too pedantic on both sides to be worth the continued argument.
AnimeNation101 wrote:But you DON’T have any evidence against why Toyo should use SSBKK and SSBE instead of his confusing, contradictory knock off versions outside of because you dont like it.
I won't speak for TKA, but I'm more than happy to offer my own thoughts as for why the manga's "knock offs" are less egregious. There's a much more interesting discussion to be had there.

Blue Kaioken is bad because it did more harm to Super's macro narrative than good. Its drawback never amounts to anything in the story outside of filler nonsense about Goku temporarily becoming weak (which also never goes anywhere, he just recovers and that's that) and by the Universe Survival arc, the form is nonchalantly pulled out of the bag without a lick of consequence whenever he's in a pinch. More importantly, its large multiplier rather excessively inflated the show's power scaling to the extent that it retroactively ruined the themes of the BoG arc, namely in how Goku was able to give Beerus some small semblance of a challenge with the God form alone. In the vast majority of instances following the Universe 6 tournament, it doesn't seem to do anything more than demonstrate that Goku is using his "full full full power for real this time!", which doesn't really do shit for the story that Blue itself wasn't already striving to achieve.

Conversely, in the manga, Goku's power-stressed Blue is used exactly once, and only to draw attention to how much of an insane brick wall Jiren is. Instead of being overused for the purpose of abundant pandering, it's expressly introduced to gel with the underlying themes of Goku and Jiren's main conflict while also emphasizing Goku's personal obstacles. That's it. You can certainly contend that it conflicts with the completed Blue representing the apex of Blue's power, but I think that's a minor price to pay for what it successfully brought to the table in a narrative sense.

Blue Evolution is bad because it was an obvious "oh shit, we need a bandaid to let Vegeta catch up to Goku's Blue Kaioken" on Toei's part, but aesthetically, it clashes with Toriyama's design philosophy and ultimately clashes with itself.

Toriyama's minimalist approach comes down to two things: "less is more" and "bigger isn't better". That's what he did with the final forms for Freeza, Cell, and Boo. That's what he did to supplement the fact that "Grade 4" and Super Saiyan 2 were fundamentally superior to Grades 2 and 3. That's what he did with the god forms. A number of interviews go over this process in pretty excruciating detail. He doesn't do bulky transformations unless he's intentionally trying to demonstrate their weaknesses or unique character gimmicks, or otherwise show how easily superseded they can be.

Blue Evolution is a direct betrayal of that concept; it's the TV anime's ultimate Saiyan transformation so far, but it takes Toriyama's effective use of subversion and completely throws it out the window in favor of permanently bulging veins and generic BIG STRONK muscles that the deliberately unsuccessful Grades 2-3 had. Then, haphazardly, it throws in these large kawaii pupils that just look jarring on a roided-out Vegeta. It's an eyesore, it's played too sfraight to fit the original author's style, and it's only mildly amusing in an ironic "I'm laughing at him not with him" kind of way. It sure does reinforce what a joke this franchise tends to be without the people who understand why the overly macho stuff was usually done to subvert expectations.

Toyotaro was smart to avoid it, despite my own problems with giving Blue another arbitrary boost that it didn't need in both versions of the Tournament of Power, and Toriyama was smart to stick to his guns by excluding it from the new movie. I can only hope it'll disappear for good in future material.
This is cool and all but...

I’m asking why you’re against Toyo using SSBKK and SSBE instead of his knock offs in the manga, since SSBKK and SSBE ALREADY EXIST.

Your first paragraph only describes why you have a problem with how SSBKK was used in the anime. And then you proceed to show how much better the knockoff is used in the manga. But all I'm asking is for why you’re against SSBKK replacing the knock off. That would mean that SSBKK would be used exactly like how the knockoff was. So how SSBKK was used in the anime doesn’t really matter in the context of the question.

Then you bash SSBE by calling it a bandaid by Toei but it seems you forget that Toyo’s knock off of it is just Toyo copying the concept that you bashed for the same reason. A bandaid to increase Vegeta’s strength to that of Goku with his SSBKK and on top of that, a bandaid to momentarily let Vegeta compete with Jiren. So that point of yours cancels out.

Your Toriyama minimalist point is the ONLY good point I've seen throughout this whole discussion. But again, if thats the reason Toyo did this instead of just going with the forms that ALREADY EXIST, he followed the minimalism in exchange for confusion, contradiction, and a lack of explanation. That seems like an unbalanced exchange.
This as well. Lmao

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Shaddy
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shaddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:50 pm

Bullza wrote: Fu has a wealth of personality compares to Moro who has next to no personality. Jiren had more personality than Moro.

Fu also at least looks like a Dragon Ball character. Moro...yeah he's a goat. It'd be surprising if Toriyama even designed that.
Fu really doesn't have any personality. Not in the anime at least. I know in the manga he's technicaly better, but it's still not what I'd call good.

Moro isn't good either, but this series has a surplus of unnaturally-colored men with white hair, there aren't nearly as many goat wizards and I appreciate that there is some creativity on Toyotaro's part. Fu looks like a stereotype of Dragon Ball character design, in all of the worst ways. Yamamuro's version for the anime does not help.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:03 pm

Ahhh, the routine DBH mudslinging as usual. Where ppl try to judge the quality of a series based on shallow digestion of the proper source materials and a crappy Toei TV attempt to promote it.

This chapter was so boring and predictable. I generally enjoy the manga but this arc has been lackluster thus far. Moro hasn't shown any abilities notable since the flashback and his personality is too generic for a DB villain, it might even be worse than stoic Jiren. He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.

The banter was also quite pointless and could've been done much more succinctly. All of that leading up to discovering Moro simply wants to use the DBs to restore back his original power. Very anticlimactic, unoriginal probably because it's already been done too many times in the DB franchise.

Maybe it's still too soon to judge but I'm not really feeling it. Normally I highly look forward to next month's chapter, but that excitement has dissipated based on the current story direction.

As comparison, I still very much look forward to UM7 in SDBH based on the direction, tension, and high stakes of the two story arcs in the arcade game.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:22 pm

While nothing amazing I'm still enjoying the arc so far. Vegeta vs Moro was decent enough and there was some pretty good art through out the fight. Moro himself is okay as of right now and while he might not be the most original villain ever in DB I do appreciate how he's not yet another super buff strong dude like Jiren and Broly. I do hope there's more plot next chapter as this chapter was mostly fighting. And at this point in time I still am unsure if this is a filler arc or a legit one. Lot of that has to do with how quickly they fought Moro after his introduction. Hard to tell if this will be a short arc or a long one. Guess only time will tell.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:49 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Ok. Lets say it IS Blue Evolved. Same concept as the anime. Just looks different.

Where does it say that Evolved SUPER SAIYAN BLUE has no relation to SUPER SAIYAN BLUE? The whole point of EVOLVING from something is that you’re advancing into a superior form from that original something.

Its like how the rules of power and Ki in SSJ work exactly like how they do in SSJ2 and SSJ3. You transform and get a power multiplier but the forms drain your ki, Why would a technique that works in SSB NOT WORK in an Evolved SSB? Especially when Evolved SSB turns out to just be a more powerful and faster SSB. If Evolved SSB WASN’T related to SSB, then it WOULDN’T have SSB in the name and WOULDN’T look the same as SSB with a slight change in arua.

And you literally say in your post in the page before that Toyo’s kaioken blue knock off is also an evolved blue. But now here you are saying the knockoff isn’t an evolved SSB but just an attempt to increase power buy elevating ki.
I never said that the form used by Goku in ToP was the same as Evolved Blue. In fact, I always separated the two transformations, just said that the Blue Kaioken of the manga was a variation of the Blue. Anyway, it's obvious that the form of Goku and Vegeta are not the same.

And the point here is that you're judging Evolved Blue / Kaioken Blue as incoherent transformations based on the CSSB rules, which does not make sense. Concentrating the Ki inside the body was just one of the ways that Goku thought of ending Blue's energy expenditure and using its full potential. In ToP, in a moment of desperation, he just looked for another way to gain power quickly through Blue, as he did with CSSB before

In Vegeta's case it was a burst of anger, which really resulted in a new transformation. Vegeta doesn't have to contain the aura of Evolved Blue to gain power or to overcome some of the disadvantage of the transformation as it did with regular Blue, precisely because they are different forms and concepts

Bro. Thats not what is said. I said that YOU SAID, in a previous post that Manga Goku’s SSBKK knock off was an evolved SSB form. Thats what you said before.

As for Vegeta, the argument is pointless then. And I've just now realzied it. Because I'm arguing that Toyo should just use SSBE rather than a knock off form. But ur saying the form Vegeta unlocks IS SSBE basically. So if thats the case, everything else doesn’t matter when it comes to my complaints against Toyo using a knock of of SSBE. Accept that the design probbably should have had a distinct look to not confuse people.
To be honest, yes, I wish the manga's Evolved Blue had more differences than just the aura, but I have no problem with what we have now. Although I think that Evo Blue is a new transformation in manga (which is strongly implied through character lines), the few changes in the look are much more like a powered up Blue than a whole new transformation, and this does not is bad. When Vegeta uses this form, the feeling is that Blue is still being used constantly and does not lose its usefulness and is not even trivialized (at the same time that it is clear that we are seeing a reinforced version of this transformation), which I do not think what happens with the anime SSBE

Although I love SSBE, unfortunately the transformation was only created as a resource to match Vegeta to Goku (who already had a state at that level much earlier) and served to devalue SSB even more. In the manga, despite Vegeta's awakening to have less emotion, I believe narratively was more coherent. Toyotaro is not trying to recreate SSBE in the manga (if he wanted to, he probably would have done it), he just found a way to give a power up to Vegeta without creating completely new visuals (unlike TOEI does, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but often becomes). It's something simple like a change of aura, and that's the reason why these power ups do not get saturated. The auras of the regular Blue and the Evolved Blue are easy to distinguish, and if we are talking CSSB is even more remarkable because that form has no aura.

And I'm not seeing all this mess to distinguish the regular Blue and the Evolved Blue.
Miracles wrote:Didn't really care for the chapter. Just dodging and shooting with the big plot headline about Moro using the planets energy for attacks and his absorbing ability includes opponents.

As for the discussion about the different forms/power ups between anime and manga. They don't matter since Toriyama doesn't acknowledge them in his view of Super. Toriyama stayed with plain old Super Saiyan god and Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan from BoG, RoF, outlines and Broly. Toriyama is the authority and TOEI and Toyotaro only adapt from his movies and outlines.
Toriyama probably does not consider these transformations for canonical history, but he probably accepts their introduction, after all he reviews and approves of the manga storyboards

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