"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:28 pm

Shaddy wrote:I think the more important distinction... and to the intelligence of the people you're arguing with.
Very good post.

What happens in Heroes isn't a story so much as just a collection fights and things happening. It's not even a sequence of events, since that implies moving from point A to B to C. In Heroes, it's more like you move from point A to Z to G, to Q etc. Just random "cool" things happening.
Miracles wrote:So far I'm not liking this arc. This chapter especially...Doesn't seem Toriyama-like. Correct me but the magic doesn't seem to have that goofy Toriyama flavor. Just absorbing and flinging the energy back does seem like Toyotaro is writing this arc. There is no diversity, Vegeta is talking a little too much for me about being a hero; caring for the well being of Namekians. Vegeta using a feint on Moro could be a call back to his classic Android 19 heyday where he pretended he had no energy. Or maybe Piccolo goading Cell to talk...Still I'm not feeling this.
I think what you might be getting at, truly getting at, is the fact that this is all so straightforward. There haven't been forks in the road or any twists. It's just "there's a bad guy, he uses magic, let's fight the bad guy, bad guy uses magic". I don't really care about the type of magic he's using like so many others seemingly do; I care that the story just isn't doing anything interesting. He's not interesting. I don't think this arc has even stated its thesis yet.

With the Universe Survival Arc, we got it pretty quickly. Teamwork vs Solitude. Trunks arc was God vs Man. Etc. I have no idea what this arc is doing, and after these first 3 chapters, I don't really care what it's doing either.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:53 pm

TKA wrote:I don't think this arc has even stated its thesis yet.

With the Universe Survival Arc, we got it pretty quickly. Teamwork vs Solitude. Trunks arc was God vs Man. Etc. I have no idea what this arc is doing, and after these first 3 chapters, I don't really care what it's doing either.
This... interests me. I do agree with the themes you gave the FT and US arcs. Would you, by any chance, have any idea what the themes would be for the DBZ arcs, B.o.G, R.o.F, U6 v U7 arc, and the Broly movie?

I guess the U6 v U7 arc theme would have something to do with Mortals and how they’re used as pawns for the Gods. I have no idea what the themes or thesises for the other arcs could be.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:01 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:This... interests me. I do agree with the themes you gave the FT and US arcs. Would you, by any chance, have any idea what the themes would be for the DBZ arcs, B.o.G, R.o.F, U6 v U7 arc, and the Broly movie?
I gave you the most basic rendition of what the arcs were about in their earliest chapters. I could say a lot more about each.

But if you want my thoughts on the themes in Broly, I did so in my sig. It states its thesis in the first 10 minutes with all the fathers.

Battle of Gods establishes damn fast that "there's always someone greater".

Res F is that revenge is petty and pointless.

Again, there's a lot more to them, but these are just the things that pop up at the start.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:18 pm

TKA wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:This... interests me. I do agree with the themes you gave the FT and US arcs. Would you, by any chance, have any idea what the themes would be for the DBZ arcs, B.o.G, R.o.F, U6 v U7 arc, and the Broly movie?
I gave you the most basic rendition of what the arcs were about in their earliest chapters. I could say a lot more about each.

But if you want my thoughts on the themes in Broly, I did so in my sig. It states its thesis in the first 10 minutes with all the fathers.

Battle of Gods establishes damn fast that "there's always someone greater".

Res F is that revenge is petty and pointless.

Again, there's a lot more to them, but these are just the things that pop up at the start.
My friends discussed it and here’s what we got

Saiyan Saga’s main theme is on: Social Class

Freeza Saga: oppression and rebellion (since Freeza’s a space dictator)

Android Saga: Couldn’t think of anything so i guessed at least one of them is fatherhood (Vegeta and Trunks, Gero and his Androids, Goku and Gohan)

Buu Saga: yeah, idk

R.o.F: Acceptace and Freeza’s lack of ability to do so.

U6 v U7: Mortals being used as pawns by the Gods

Broly: Fate/Destiny
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:40 pm

TKA wrote:I think what you might be getting at, truly getting at, is the fact that this is all so straightforward. There haven't been forks in the road or any twists. It's just "there's a bad guy, he uses magic, let's fight the bad guy, bad guy uses magic". I don't really care about the type of magic he's using like so many others seemingly do; I care that the story just isn't doing anything interesting. He's not interesting. I don't think this arc has even stated its thesis yet.

With the Universe Survival Arc, we got it pretty quickly. Teamwork vs Solitude. Trunks arc was God vs Man. Etc. I have no idea what this arc is doing, and after these first 3 chapters, I don't really care what it's doing either.
Exactly. I'm going..."OK, where does this lead?" I think the linear approach has taken away the excitement for me so far.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:42 pm

Rakurai wrote:He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.
That pretty accurately summarizes my problem with Moro. He's such a "then what" villain.

Sucking the life out of planets and throwing meteors around was a good way of introducing him to the plot, I think, but he hasn't amounted to anything more than that and it's seriously offputting. I would've wanted more interesting magic not just because it's "cool" or "unique" or whatever, but because of the dilemmas it could have wrought for our protagonists, forcing them to think outside of the box and helping them grow as characters. We're still not getting a hint of that after, what, 60 pages of fighting? They're embroiled in a pointless conflict that isn't doing anything for them.

As others have said, there's no thesis here. No core message. No story themes to tie anything together. This isn't better than the average Z movie so far.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Son Dragon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:19 pm

I dunno but in my opinion analysis is one thing but if fans were as cautious as they are today back when the series came around we'd probably never would have been able to enjoy the series at all or at least certainly not to the same extent. I'm waiting for the day to come around again, maybe with frirnds maybe not, when I can sit back and enjoy the series without overthinking everything and just being excited to see what happens next. Like reading a new manga for the first time. I mean realistically dragon ball is a team effort, so I'm sure that whatever happens, there's a reasom for it with some.sort pay off later on. I mean I've been pessimistic myself, but I'm not sure if that's the same avenue I should pursue the series with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:32 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
TKA wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote:This... interests me. I do agree with the themes you gave the FT and US arcs. Would you, by any chance, have any idea what the themes would be for the DBZ arcs, B.o.G, R.o.F, U6 v U7 arc, and the Broly movie?
I gave you the most basic rendition of what the arcs were about in their earliest chapters. I could say a lot more about each.

But if you want my thoughts on the themes in Broly, I did so in my sig. It states its thesis in the first 10 minutes with all the fathers.

Battle of Gods establishes damn fast that "there's always someone greater".

Res F is that revenge is petty and pointless.

Again, there's a lot more to them, but these are just the things that pop up at the start.
My friends discussed it and here’s what we got

Saiyan Saga’s main theme is on: Social Class

Freeza Saga: oppression and rebellion (since Freeza’s a space dictator)

Android Saga: Couldn’t think of anything so i guessed at least one of them is fatherhood (Vegeta and Trunks, Gero and his Androids, Goku and Gohan)

Buu Saga: yeah, idk

R.o.F: Acceptace and Freeza’s lack of ability to do so.

U6 v U7: Mortals being used as pawns by the Gods

Broly: Fate/Destiny
I would say the Android/Cell also had the change of fate or destiny, since everyone was supposed to die but thanks to Trunks warning, they were able to change that. I agree with Fatherhood, Goku passing the torch to Gohan, Vegeta raging against Cell after he killed Trunks, and Gero building Cell to be the Perfect Warrior.

Buu originally was about the next Generation taking over but that went out the window and Goku and Vegeta had to step in to save the day.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:39 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.
That pretty accurately summarizes my problem with Moro. He's such a "then what" villain.

Sucking the life out of planets and throwing meteors around was a good way of introducing him to the plot, I think, but he hasn't amounted to anything more than that and it's seriously offputting. I would've wanted more interesting magic not just because it's "cool" or "unique" or whatever, but because of the dilemmas it could have wrought for our protagonists, forcing them to think outside of the box and helping them grow as characters. We're still not getting a hint of that after, what, 60 pages of fighting? They're embroiled in a pointless conflict that isn't doing anything for them.

As others have said, there's no thesis here. No core message. No story themes to tie anything together. This isn't better than the average Z movie so far.
I think it's a bit rushed to judge Moro's powers at the moment. As we know, he is old, decrepit and with a level of magic much lower than he had.
 
Of course, he will achieve his youth and probably reach his pinnacle of power again and then we will be able to see more about him, but I would say that his abilities at the moment are interesting and at the very least will force Goku and Vegeta to think of another way to defeat him (after all, they have the energy absorbed just being near Moro).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:39 am

Son Dragon wrote:I dunno but in my opinion analysis is one thing but if fans were as cautious as they are today back when the series came around we'd probably never would have been able to enjoy the series at all or at least certainly not to the same extent. I'm waiting for the day to come around again, maybe with frirnds maybe not, when I can sit back and enjoy the series without overthinking everything and just being excited to see what happens next. Like reading a new manga for the first time. I mean realistically dragon ball is a team effort, so I'm sure that whatever happens, there's a reasom for it with some.sort pay off later on. I mean I've been pessimistic myself, but I'm not sure if that's the same avenue I should pursue the series with.
I don't buy this.

I've reread the original manga many times, and it holds up very strongly. Toriyama completely undersells his ability as a writer, but the ethos of each arc shines through. He's writing by the seat of his pants, but he has such a strong understanding of his series, characters and settings that whatever themes he's establishing stay consistent.

The original manga would be a hit regardless of when it was released. It's that fucking good.
Marlowe89 wrote:I would've wanted more interesting magic not just because it's "cool" or "unique" or whatever, but because of the dilemmas it could have wrought for our protagonists, forcing them to think outside of the box and helping them grow as characters.
To be clear, I was talking about those who are picking up DnD spreadsheets because they want to see cool magic tricks and such.

If his abilities are creative enough that it forces the heroes into situations where they have to progress their characters, then it's all good. It would be great, in fact.
AnimeNation101 wrote:Saiyan Saga’s main theme is on: Social Class

Freeza Saga: oppression and rebellion (since Freeza’s a space dictator)

Android Saga: Couldn’t think of anything so i guessed at least one of them is fatherhood (Vegeta and Trunks, Gero and his Androids, Goku and Gohan)

Buu Saga: yeah, idk
I wasn't talking about main themes. I was talking about themes established at the arc's beginning. If I was talking about main themes, there'd be a lot more to cover. The point of comparison was that every arc started with a thematic premise that was later developed or replaced with another, but this arc has nothing so far.

For the Saiyan Arc: I would say the theme first established is "change". Raditz's arrival fundamentally changes the series, readjusts who the villains are and introduces a new secondary main character in Gohan.

Namek Arc: The earliest portions of it scream exploration to me. Going off into the unknown to fight the unknown. Of course, all of this quickly changes and it shifts into being basically a horror story where our protagonists have to hide from all these powerful monsters.

Android Arc: It sets up its theme of revenge pretty quickly with Frieza and Cold, then straight into the Red Ribbon stuff.

Buu Arc: The start is all about passing the torch, even introducing the next generation of heroes in Goten and Trunks.

Some of the themes stick around until the end, some get phased out, but every arc starts with a central theme.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:12 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: I think it's a bit rushed to judge Moro's powers at the moment.
As I've said yesterday, I'm judging Moro's abilities based on what we've been presented with so far. There have been plenty of pages of him in action to opine about this.

Three monthly-length chapters is more than enough time to adequately assess whether the arc is doing its job or not. It might very well improve, but the first quarter is already proving to be not very good, sadly.
TKA wrote:To be clear, I was talking about those who are picking up DnD spreadsheets because they want to see cool magic tricks and such.
I know, and I totally agree. I feel there have been way too many posts in this thread exactly like what you've described, so I just wanted to provide a bit of clarification for everyone.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:09 am

LightBing wrote:Overall this chapter was weak. Felt too formulaic in a bad sense for me and lacking inspiration in it's formula.

The Bad:
The chapter felt unnecessary for most of it. The scope of Moro's energy draining technique is new information but all this to show it? It wasn't needed, it's like the chapter forced itself to end on a cliffhanger which resulted in a dragged chapter.
Vegeta returning to base before finishing Moro felt like plot-induced stupidity just to set up the final sequence.
Moro's fighting style being unimaginative.

The Good:
Moro's ability is extremely overpowered, it offers a new challenge to Goku and Vegeta. That's something interesting to look forward, there's a bunch of ways they can go about it.
Moro maintaining his calm, his wise old man persona is so far being maintained.
I wouldn't call it overpower since Moro has to sit still and drain energy much like Goku's Spirit Ball, leaving his open. Goku and Vegeta could have easily stopped it, if they didn't just randomly decide to sit back and let Moro make his energy ball and then eat the freaking thing.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:17 am

Shaddy wrote:
Bullza wrote: This Moro in the manga is a worse villain than Fu in the anime.
Moro and Fu have equally flat personalities, but Moro is at least a magic goat, while Fu is just some purple asshole with ugly yellow jorts.
Kinokima wrote: In Dragon Ball maybe because back then the fights were creative in fun but overall no I would disagree. I hope I don’t see another tournament arc for a long time.
Nobody's saying they're not overused and formulaic, god no, I'm tired of them too. But claiming they literally don't count as stories or that something as soulless as Heroes is better, is beyond laughable.
To be fair, Xenoverse Fu is interesting since he's more of a chaotic neutral who does stuff 'For Science' then being an evil prick. The Heroes anime version of him is a very poor version of Fu. Even his game counterpart is written better.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:42 am

Kanassa wrote:
TobyS wrote:
So I'm not sure where they are taking this... I don't see how they can beat him
If only we had Android who probably can't have their energy drained since it's not like the Ki everyone else has
The androids ki is undetectable but they must still have it as they are living beings. They can donate to a genki dama.

If he just uses his cell saga power from his default android power source that piccolo vs 17 level won't do jack shit from a guy who is Moro+namek+vegeta blue level. Manga 17 isn't even as strong as anime 17 it'd be a stomp.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:01 am

Son Dragon wrote:I dunno but in my opinion analysis is one thing but if fans were as cautious as they are today back when the series came around we'd probably never would have been able to enjoy the series at all or at least certainly not to the same extent. I'm waiting for the day to come around again, maybe with frirnds maybe not, when I can sit back and enjoy the series without overthinking everything and just being excited to see what happens next. Like reading a new manga for the first time. I mean realistically dragon ball is a team effort, so I'm sure that whatever happens, there's a reasom for it with some.sort pay off later on. I mean I've been pessimistic myself, but I'm not sure if that's the same avenue I should pursue the series with.
That's how I am with the current arc. I enjoy not having any spoilers whatsoever and just looking forward to each month to see just what will happen next. It's refreshing since I haven't been able to experience DB like that in a looong time. The anime always gave us those early synopsis and the manga was just another version of the anime, so having something that's completely unspoiled is pretty cool

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:54 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote: I think it's a bit rushed to judge Moro's powers at the moment.
As I've said yesterday, I'm judging Moro's abilities based on what we've been presented with so far. There have been plenty of pages of him in action to opine about this.

Three monthly-length chapters is more than enough time to adequately assess whether the arc is doing its job or not. It might very well improve, but the first quarter is already proving to be not very good, sadly.
The point here is that although the bow has only 3 or 4 chapters so far (which you can judge as sufficient to gauge the story's progress or not), we just saw Moro very far from his true power. Even if you find that his skills are uninteresting at the moment, it's early to say because it's just an introduction.

And although this chapter is unnecessary in his opinion, it served Moro to corner the heroes, causing them to think of another way to defeat him (possibly out of what DB usually does), not to mention that it is a possibility of him recovering his youth, since Goku and Vegeta are incapacitated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:54 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Even if you find that his skills are uninteresting at the moment, it's early to say because it's just an introduction.
But it's not an introduction, and we're well past the introductions. That's my point.

Remember that it was the previous chapter's cliffhanger that teased Moro's magic. There's no way in absolute hell anyone wasn't expecting more than what we got (e.g. a different application of his ability in the first chapter, but spammed over and over again) so the downsides are two-fold: on one hand, the reader is misled without any payoff, and on the other, the pacing and story structure are both horribly realized because their conflict has contributed nothing to the arc's characters and themes for SIXTY PAGES.

People can criticize the manga's Tournament of Power all they want, but that was a story. Real events were developing in every chapter, the plot progression wasn't insulting our time and there were substantial character beats all throughout. We're not getting that here.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:And although this chapter is unnecessary in his opinion, it served Moro to corner the heroes, causing them to think of another way to defeat him
They're cornered, but I'm not convinced it'll result in anything worthwhile because the chapter doesn't play with any of these ideas. We'll have to wait another month to see what happens, since nothing actually happened this month.

It feels less like I'm reading the manga and more like I'm watching a dragged-out Z episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dblack » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:29 pm

Moro needs to get his wish and keep Vegeta/Goku with him constantly draining their power to replenish his own. Use them as matrix-style batteries.
Seeing some of the other universes heroes try to stop him and rescue Goku/vegeta culminating in a Beerus vs Moro showdown would be epic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Regarder » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:44 pm

What's interesting is that besides people giving energy willingly, the Genki Dama was already stated to take energy from the animals, plants, and even rocks, but clearly it's weaker than Moro's magic, because he takes so much that it kills living things and is able to draw massive amounts of ki just from the planet itself (I think planets must contain more ki than is needed to destroy them). He's also able to wield it freely unlike with the Genki Dama. I hope they at least mention the move at some point, but it'll probably get passed over pretty quick, because there's no way it should be able to beat him, reasonably speaking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:54 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Even if you find that his skills are uninteresting at the moment, it's early to say because it's just an introduction.
But it's not an introduction, and we're well past the introductions. That's my point.

Remember that it was the previous chapter's cliffhanger that teased Moro's magic. There's no way in absolute hell anyone wasn't expecting more than what we got (e.g. a different application of his ability in the first chapter, but spammed over and over again) so the downsides are two-fold: on one hand, the reader is misled without any payoff, and on the other, the pacing and story structure are both horribly realized because their conflict has contributed nothing to the arc's characters and themes for SIXTY PAGES.

People can criticize the manga's Tournament of Power all they want, but that was a story. Real events were developing in every chapter, the plot progression wasn't insulting our time and there were substantial character beats all throughout. We're not getting that here.
Exactly. Moro's ability just being a rehash of his introductory powers, applied in a few different ways is a let down. It would of been fine if the absorbing was a main staple to power himself up and use that skill for different variations of magic. Since he is weakened, I guess we could still see this happen [Just like you stated]. However, I'm afraid that won't be the case since Toyotaro made Moro's absorbing ability also apply to our heroes. Removing god powers from Goku and Vegeta is a big plot device to help Moro cope with their power and gives the story a bigger excuse to use Dai Kaioshin. I believe this approach will stunt our characters growth in figuring out a way to fight Moro on their own in a unique way.

The only thing I could say for the overall plot progression so far is that Moro's wish is confirmed and more of Vegeta's development of him accepting his role as a good guy.

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