"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:34 am

HeroR wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:36 am
We got at least two chapters of build up before Goku and Vegeta run off to fight Moro.

We also got a lot of background on the guy.
I don't think that's enough. Frieza was introduced in Chapter 247 and took till Chapter 308 before Goku started fighting him, that's over a year's worth of build up.

Yeah ok that was published differently and all but like I said, they introduced Goku Black in Chapter 14, then there was a lot of story before Vegeta finally fought him in Chapter 19. Here there's been no real setup, no mystery, no development, they just jumped into it.
AnimeNation101 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:41 am
Feels like Battle of Gods. We quickly find out about Beerus. Then we already confront him. And we lose. Thats where we are with the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc.
Yeah that's pretty much it. This saga has the pacing of a movie. Except it doesn't feel like one that Toriyama wrote. Beerus also came out of nowhere but he had a lot of personality to show in a relatively short time.

If Goku were to stand up and absorb a Spirit Bomb and then defeat Moro now then you've got yourself a 90's Toei movie basically.
I think that’s the problem you have with Moro.
Yeah a lot of the antagonists have some personal connection to the main characters. Even if they don't Beerus (well he sorta does) has a colourful personality and was not really a villain despite what he does. Hit had some unique abilities. Jiren wasn't particularly interesting exactly but at least in the anime they did a good job of making him seem like an unstoppable force of nature.

Moro doesn't have that personal connection, there's no mystery revolving around him like Cell or Goku Black, his magic is...a little underwhelming, his personality is a bit generic his character design isn't the best either.

He's Toei movie villain level really. Closer to being a Bojack or a Lord Slug than a Frieza or a Goku Black.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:09 am

AnimeNation101 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:38 am
PFM18 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:54 pm
shadd21 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:03 pm
I swear Beerus is about as active in the plot of Super as Piccolo at this point.
Good. It provides more tension that way
Agreed. I kinda wish Beerus took another long nap. Or maybe Zeno and the GP re-establish that Gods shouldn’t directly interfere with the affairs of mortals.

Whatever gets the Gods away.

Infact, I'm kinda waiting for an arc where one of its main themes is “the repercussions of mortals relying on the gods too much”.

That's only true of the Supreme Kais. The Gods of Destruction are supposed to intervene in mortal affairs. Heck, the manga outright says that Beerus should have been the one to deal with Buu, not the Supreme Kais. This isn't about 'mortals relying on the gods too much', this is about the gods not doing their jobs, which is why U7 is considered a dumpster fire.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:18 am

Kanassa wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:45 am
Erasing Zamasu? Him showing his care of Goku and co? His steadily growing respect and politeness towards the Z Fighters? Him realizing that he needs to shape up?
This is why I don't like to engage with users who gloss over what I said instead of addressing what I actually said, particularly when I mentioned Battle of Gods.

Stuff like "erasing Zamasu" and "showing his """care""" for Goku" (both of those go hand-in-hand and actually just amount to slightly less-than-apathetic behavior) wasn't presented as any development beyond his initial encounter with Goku, and, indeed, tended to be manifestations of that development. "Him wanting to shape up" also literally never happened in the manga.
You said that Beerus didn't have any character development and thus it wasn't dumb for him to suddenly have no sense of self-preservation despite caring about threats to his life and job before.

Do you understand what you've said?
The latter part of this statement is such a poorly-constructed attempt at a strawman that I'm honestly not entirely sure I want to continue past this point. You're clearly not reading.

This was addressed in my previous post -- criticism without context is hardly criticism. You would need to present a convincing case for why Beerus' life is on the line before making claims about self-preservation. I feel I've more than addressed your other points, and your rather half-assed attempt at a "gotcha" isn't really going to work if you've already admitted that Beerus isn't a pivotal character but insist on construing his proposed development as some kind of necessity in an arc that isn't even focused on him.

You can claim you don't want pandering and pointless fluff, but you do; if a character isn't integral to the story, said development for said character is ultimately superfluous for said story. That's basic plot structure, chief. Beerus can also feel fearful towards his authorities in the divine hierarchy and simultaneously not feel threatened by Moro, so your argument isn't coherent to begin with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:07 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:18 am
This is why I don't like to engage with users who gloss over what I said instead of addressing what I actually said, particularly when I mentioned Battle of Gods.

Stuff like "erasing Zamasu" and "showing his """care""" for Goku" (both of those go hand-in-hand and actually just amount to slightly less-than-apathetic behavior) wasn't presented as any development beyond his initial encounter with Goku, and, indeed, tended to be manifestations of that development. "Him wanting to shape up" also literally never happened in the manga.
Wait, so suddenly things don't count as character development if the narrative doesn't make a big deal and point out that it's development? I know this is Dragon Ball and it's not subtle a lot of the time, but characters don't need to have long speeches about how they've changed to have significant character development.

Dealing with the Zamasu situation at all shows significant development because if he was the same lazy God he was back in BoG, he wouldn't have ever gotten off of his ass to interfere, he would have had the same reaction he has in this chapter "Why should I care about Gowasu getting killed? Should have picked a better apprentice" instead of going out of his way to investigate and assist, even assuring Trunks.

The whole TOP had him showing off his growing pride in Goku and Vegeta, had him go from treating the rest of the Z Fighters like deadweight to taking the effort to correct himself to call their names respectfully, from ranting about their failures to assuring them that they did their best. It was even admitted that he should have been there to stop Buu from attacking the Kais.

Even in the manga where most characters have less character, describing Beerus as 'less than apathetic' by the end of it is a stretch that not even PIccolo could make.
This was addressed in my previous post -- criticism without context is hardly criticism. You would need to present a convincing case for why Beerus' life is on the line before making claims about self-preservation.
Moro is eating/destroying planets by the dozen (With only 28 left), something which even pre-development Beerus got pissy about people doing, thus endangering Universe 7 and Beerus getting erased. He went after the Kais already before he was put away. He has every reason to go after Shin both because of his previous encounter and because he wants revenge. Shin dies, Beerus dies. Zeno gets pissed off, Beerus dies.
I feel I've more than addressed your other points, and your rather half-assed attempt at a "gotcha" isn't really going to work if you've already admitted that Beerus isn't a pivotal character but insist on construing his proposed development as some kind of necessity in an arc that isn't even focused on him.

You can claim you don't want pandering and pointless fluff, but you do; if a character isn't integral to the story, said development for said character is ultimately superfluous for said story. That's basic plot structure, chief.
It's not superfluous if it conflicts with said Character's development. Not only does Beerus's reaction make no sense on a practical level, but his complete lack of regard for Goku and Vegeta about to be killed also contradicts his development as a character. If Vegeta was absent from an arc with the excuse that he was busy invading and conquering planets for Frieza, that would be utter character breaking bullshit because it would go against the years of development Vegeta has had and be completely out of character.

This is basic storytelling. The arc is not happening in a vacuum, it's happening in continuity with the rest of the story, the rest of the story doesn't stop existing.

And yes, having characters act consistently with their character traits isn't pandering or pointless fluff, it's writing a functioning character. I didn't think that's something that had to be explained.
Last edited by Kanassa on Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:28 am

I'm sorry but let's be real guys

the reason why Beerus is siting on his ass is because if Toriyama were to make beerus fight Moro and he were to win It'd make Moro seem super weak as opposed to him being a serious threat and a main focus in this saga or another reason is if Beerus were to fight moro and lose (let's say moro kills him) and later someone like Goku or Vegeta were to defeat him it'd screw up the powerscailing a bit more than it already is and in the manga the powerscailing is sorta consistent and good (Moro is an incredible villain thus far)

is it fair to assume that Moro is a Daihakaishin (Grand God Of Destruction) and reason he's lived such a long time is cause of his life link with Daikaio? (I'm probably asking an obvious question)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:14 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:28 am
I'm sorry but let's be real guys

the reason why Beerus is siting on his ass is because if Toriyama were to make beerus fight Moro and he were to win It'd make Moro seem super weak as opposed to him being a serious threat and a main focus in this saga or another reason is if Beerus were to fight moro and lose (let's say moro kills him) and later someone like Goku or Vegeta were to defeat him it'd screw up the powerscailing a bit more than it already is and in the manga the powerscailing is sorta consistent and good (Moro is an incredible villain thus far)

is it fair to assume that Moro is a Daihakaishin (Grand God Of Destruction) and reason he's lived such a long time is cause of his life link with Daikaio? (I'm probably asking an obvious question)
Toriyama isn't writing this, Toyo is.

Two, have Moro drain and eat Beerus' power like he did with Goku and Vegeta.

Three, Goku in UI is more or less confirmed to be on par if not stronger than Beerus, so them beating Moro with UI or even Fusion wouldn't break anything. I mean, Goku and Vegeta at this point already fought two Beerus' level characters.

Four, calling the manga's scaling consistent is amusing giving what happened last arc with UI Roshi, Gohan taking out Super Saiyan Kelfa in a draw whose fusion part wiped out most of the other universes and pounded Golden Freeza. And don't even excuse UI Roshi with 'Jiren was holding back' because even nutcase Frost nearly rung out Roshi without coming close to killing him, unless we're going say Frost has better self control than Jiren.That and Jiren said in the very next chapter that he always fight likes he means it and doesn't hold back per his master. So either Jiren is full of shit, or Roshi really did flexed him for a moment.

Moro isn't any kind of god. He lives so long because he ate the life-force of several hundred planets.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:21 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:28 am
I'm sorry but let's be real guys

the reason why Beerus is siting on his ass is because if Toriyama were to make beerus fight Moro and he were to win It'd make Moro seem super weak as opposed to him being a serious threat
No one disagrees with that, everyone knows that, from an out-of-universe perspective, the reason Beerus is sitting this out is because his presence would make some of the situation too easy. But you still need a good in-universe justification for him not being involved, if that reason is poorly conceived and breaks the character involved, it just makes it that the dialogue should be replaced with 'Why? Because the script says so'.

Off the top of my head for good explanations:
Beerus and Whis are meeting with Champa or other Gods in other universes
Beerus is cautious to go because the risk of Moro eating a God's power is too great and thus leaves it up to Goku and Vegeta
Whis's staff is on the frits and thus they don't know about what's happening
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:48 am

Kanassa wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:21 am
Noitsnothim wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:28 am
I'm sorry but let's be real guys

the reason why Beerus is siting on his ass is because if Toriyama were to make beerus fight Moro and he were to win It'd make Moro seem super weak as opposed to him being a serious threat
No one disagrees with that, everyone knows that, from an out-of-universe perspective, the reason Beerus is sitting this out is because his presence would make some of the situation too easy. But you still need a good in-universe justification for him not being involved, if that reason is poorly conceived and breaks the character involved, it just makes it that the dialogue should be replaced with 'Why? Because the script says so'.

Off the top of my head for good explanations:
Beerus and Whis are meeting with Champa or other Gods in other universes
Beerus is cautious to go because the risk of Moro eating a God's power is too great and thus leaves it up to Goku and Vegeta
Whis's staff is on the frits and thus they don't know about what's happening
Or Beerus ate bad food and have sever diarrhea and will be on the toilet for the rest of the arc.
Beerus is sleeping again.
He's on vacation.
He wants to see how Goku and Vegeta handle things first since he knows it would hurt their feelings if he saved them, although he won't say it like that.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:25 am

RE: Beerus' role in the arc. (Speculative)

I certainly don't mind the idea of Beerus being absent in any given story arc. In fact, I would openly encourage it as it would greatly aid in retaining his mystique and importance as a character to the point where him intervening in a story arc would automatically increase the severity of the scenario.

If the dialogue in the spoilers is to be taken at face value, Beerus has been written out of the arc in fashion that is, in all honesty, incredibly counterproductive to his development as a character. Beerus has basically gone through a bad case of character regression.

Given his initial antagonistic attitude towards the cast and his lackadaisical and generally indifferent attitude towards his own universe and, it was nice to see him subtly shift his priorities to generally take a more active approach to balance of his universe.

Beerus getting involved in the events of the Future Trunks arc in the fashion he did, was a wonderfully nuanced display of the more protective attributes that had developed within him since the events of Battle Of Gods. He saw a potentially major threat to his universe, and unlike the events Resurrection F, where he chose not to get involved, he put himself in the situation out of concern for the inhabitants of his universe (Goku and Vegeta) -- and by extension -- inhabitants of another universe (Gowasu) and even another timeline (Future Trunks and Future Mai).

Then of course you have Beerus freaking out over the idea of Goku talking Zeno over the idea of having a tournament. Again, this was out of major personal concern. Even with an idea as trvial as martial arts tournament, Beerus didn't want to take the gamble of giving Goku the freedom to talk to Zeno because there was no guarantee -- from his own perspective -- that that conversion wouldn't spiral into scenario that would put Universe 7 in harms way.

And that's not even taking into consideration the displays of general kindness such as resurrecting the human race on the Earth of Champa's universe and even providing a civilization of tasty food for him and resurrecting Freeza as a gift for his part in aiding in Universe 7 in winning the Tournament Of Power.

The main point I'm making is that Super has made it quite clear there more to Beerus' character than just brushing off events that seemingly doesn't concern him with such a nonchalant attitude. He does give a shit about his universe and those close to him beyond a superficial level.

So it's quite unfortunate from my perspective that despite it being made PAINFULLY obvious that Beerus is terrible at his role as a Hakaishin during the Universal Survival arc, and that his approach as Hakaishin should evolve if his universe is to be guaranteed safety, that he goes right back to not showing any kind of sincerity with the state of universe, in regards to what kind of planets are being destroyed on his watch without his intervention. This attitude is made all the more perplexing when the planet in question that is in danger, has a set of wish granting balls which could be greatly beneficial in being a back-up, should the Earth Dragon Balls being incapable of granting certain wishes or the Super Dragon Balls be unavailable. I mean, if Kaioshin or himself should bite the dust, those Namekian Dragon Balls would come in handy.

I hope when the chapter get's it's official English release that Beerus' dialogue is much better worded. If not, it'll be disappointing to see such a good character as Beerus go backwards in such fashion. The commentary from him may seem minor to some, but the minor details can much a big difference is how you view a character.

Toyotaro certainly had every right to bench Beerus in this arc, but could have gone about it in a much more consistent and natural way.
HeroR wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:48 am
Or Beerus ate bad food and have sever diarrhea and will be on the toilet for the rest of the arc.
This made me laugh. A LOT. :lol:
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:07 am

What Beerus did in this chapter is basically what he's been doing throughout DBS, it's not unique to this saga because in fact, he did not show any change of attitude after the events of ToP (Broly's film shows it).

Not to mention that this is also something of the script. After all, if Moro defeated Beerus, then Goku and Vegeta would definitely be stronger than the Hakaishin and the sense of superiority would not exist anymore because they would defeat Moro (although it is strongly implied that MUI Goku overcame him, it seems they do not want to talk that's exactly).
Particularly, I think Beerus should already be defeated by some villain and I hope that happens in this saga, but I understand why Beerus is portrayed that way (probably to highlight his lazy side too).
Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:25 am
RE: Beerus' role in the arc. (Speculative)
Beerus usually does not manifest a desire to interfere in fights until they become a threat to the universe. It's hard to say without the translation, but I think Beerus still does not think Moro is a big threat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:09 am

Beerus lets Freeza destroy planets, don't see why Moro would be any different
He also didn't help them against Broly at all

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:21 am

That was a great chapter. Not really sold on Moro as a character, though. Sure he's evil in a sorta mustache-twirling way, but he's basically more of the same we've already seen in past villains. Hopefully more Namekian stuff happens later.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:45 am

Better than last month's chapter partly by virtue of having more plot stuff happening this time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:10 pm

I still have no general idea of where this is going. Goku and Vegeta still aint healed so they cant go fight. Merus and Jaco aren’t near New Namek. Buu’s awake so they will prob extract the Daikaioshin and maybe South Kaioshin or something next chapter. I dont know if Moro will actually get his wish. I mean, no one can really stop him right now.

Its weird that Whis didn’t tell Beerus specifically that Goku and Vegeta were in danger on Namek as well. Could be Whis’s way of indirectly training Goku and Vegeta by having them solve the problem themselves with no help from Beerus or himself.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jplaya2023 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:33 pm

So do we think Beerus and Moro ever met? Moro said the strongest person he fought was the fat supreme kai so that means beerus never intervened with anything ever and he let everything go. I wonder if whiz being an angel can tell his dad that beerus isn't doing his job and he should be replaced down the line. We know angels cant intervene with anything

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jplaya2023 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:36 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:09 am
Beerus lets Freeza destroy planets, don't see why Moro would be any different
He also didn't help them against Broly at all
before super, frieza was never a threat to beerus (power wise) and beerus said he would kill him the next time he seen them. Moro is in a different class than frieza but it appears whiz won't tell beerus whos fighting and who's in danger which seems kinda weird for me. I Don't get why he wouldn't say anything but i assume it's plot related.

if they extract fat kai from boo then what becomes of buu? Remember the evil ki (super and kid boo) were evaporated from him and all that's left is the supreme kai. Maybe the supreme kai comes back and the remains of boo is reanimated into another character in the series

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:38 pm

Random and scattered thoughts on Chapter 46:

- Very disappointed in the characterization of Beerus. I already talked about in length in the post above why I wasn't a fan of the fashion he (supposedly) was basically written out of plot for the arc, and my point still stands. It's unfortunately not just character regression, but it's also character exaggeration as well. Yeah, we get it, Beerus is a lazy fuck who do anything to avoid get his hands dirty -- even though he should have evolved beyond that at this stage -- but I don't recall him ever getting excited over a planet dying. Especially a planet that is not being destroyed by him. And especially a planet that has a set of Dragon Balls on it. What the fuck is that all about? Awful character writing.

- Goddammit... Moro dived headfirst right into the deep end of the Bond Villain Stupidity pool. Not checking to make sure Goku and Vegeta are dead is very fucking dumb. Very let-down by that.

- Everything regarding the Galactic Patrol just felt like fluff to me. And not the good kind either. But Jaco's conversion over the phone with Bulma was pretty funny.

- Without a doubt the best part of the chapter, and arguably the best part of the entire arc so far, was when the story hyped Namekian assimilation and how the combined fighter would be the "savior of our dear planet", only for the combined Namekian warrior to get skewered by one attack from Moro, without Moro even looking at him. That was amazing. That was the most Toriyama-esque thing Toyotaro has done in the manga so far.

- The arc really does feel like, what I call, a "Spirograph narrative". In that the story is making some kind of movement, but at the same time, it's not going in any real direction. I can't shake the "filler" feeling this arc is emitting.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:44 pm

It taking Moro 3 days to get 3 dragon balls is really bizarre. I have no idea why it would take that long.

Beerus' actions are stupid but less stupid than I thought, since Whis didn't go into detail about what was actually happening.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:57 pm

Toyotaro should give the Namekian the same regenerative powers as Saonel and Pirina from the anime and also have him unlock his full power like them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Namz » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:10 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:38 pm
Random and scattered thoughts on Chapter 46:

- Very disappointed in the characterization of Beerus. I already talked about in length in the post above why I wasn't a fan of the fashion he (supposedly) was basically written out of plot for the arc, and my point still stands. It's unfortunately not just character regression, but it's also character exaggeration as well. Yeah, we get it, Beerus is a lazy fuck who do anything to avoid get his hands dirty -- even though he should have evolved beyond that at this stage -- but I don't recall him ever getting excited over a planet dying. Especially a planet that is not being destroyed by him. And especially a planet that has a set of Dragon Balls on it. What the fuck is that all about? Awful character writing.

- Goddammit... Moro dived headfirst right into the deep end of the Bond Villain Stupidity pool. Not checking to make sure Goku and Vegeta are dead is very fucking dumb. Very let-down by that.

- Everything regarding the Galactic Patrol just felt like fluff to me. And not the good kind either. But Jaco's conversion over the phone with Bulma was pretty funny.

- Without a doubt the best part of the chapter, and arguably the best part of the entire arc so far, was when the story hyped Namekian assimilation and how the combined fighter would be the "savior of our dear planet", only for the combined Namekian warrior to get skewered by one attack from Moro, without Moro even looking at him. That was amazing. That was the most Toriyama-esque thing Toyotaro has done in the manga so far.

- The arc really does feel like, what I call, a "Spirograph narrative". In that the story is making some kind of movement, but at the same time, it's not going in any real direction. I can't shake the "filler" feeling this arc is emitting.
Moro is just underestimating them. Remember he said that when he gets younger again they would be like ants for him. He has no idea who they were so he has no idea how strong they can get either.

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