"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:01 pm
louisascommie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:15 am
Just have Pan be the new main character and Uub replace vegeta
Actually they should be replaced by Goten and Trunks, Oob and Pan could come up too. Yes, I would dig a series about the new generation, but the problem is that Goku and Vegeta are so damn popular and profitable, that would be too risk to replace them out of nowhere or even with a proper build.
People watch DB for Goku so without him (and to a lesser extent, Vegeta), it won't be DB anymore. If they're going to replace those 2 they might as well end DB completely and just make another show. They could however make a mini series about them or TV specials every now and then.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:28 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:04 pm
Nokra wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:23 pm
The moro arc is the manga has been really good so far. Moro is also a cool character with nice abilites. I don't see any problems.
It feels fresh to have a villain who is not some brute and has some powerful tricks to make him strong. Not to mention, I like his backstory as well. People are so used to big and buff up villains like Broly, Super 13, Bojack, Garlic Jr, Xi Ying Long and even Jiren (Not a bad guy, but you get the point).
Absolutely. I'm catching up with the newer issues, and I'm really excited to see where this goes. It just seems like the Manga is actively trying to clapback on Dragon Ball's powercreep problem by making it more and more obvious that simply having the biggest power level won't necessarily mean you win in a fight.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:41 pm

I think we will get a Broli vs. Moro fight seeing how Vegeta hates doing fusion. If Vegeta does not want to be Gogeta, Broli may be their own choice now.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:27 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 pm
People watch DB for Goku so without him (and to a lesser extent, Vegeta), it won't be DB anymore.
That may be true in Japan, I dunno, but it sure doesn't seem to be true with the Western fanbase.

I don't need Goku to be there for Dragonball to work, and find Vegeta a far more interesting character.

Dragonball has been around for long enough, and had enough stories such that removing Goku wouldn't mean much. The brand name is more important than the character.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:43 pm

I'm the opposite; I feel like I could part ways with Vegeta more easily than I could Gokû. Vegeta's character arc feels pretty done to me and I'm not sure if they could take him in a direction I'd find interesting. Meanwhile an arc without Gokû would be an easy skip for me. You need to have competent writers behind him and when they're good the whole thing gels nicely. Poorly written Gokû is cringy, poorly written Vegeta is boring. Well written Gokû is fun, well written Vegeta is satisfying....I'm not even sure who Vegeta's supposed to be anymore because the writers across Super couldn't seem to agree.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:23 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:07 pm
Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:01 pm
louisascommie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:15 am
Just have Pan be the new main character and Uub replace vegeta
Actually they should be replaced by Goten and Trunks, Oob and Pan could come up too. Yes, I would dig a series about the new generation, but the problem is that Goku and Vegeta are so damn popular and profitable, that would be too risk to replace them out of nowhere or even with a proper build.
People watch DB for Goku so without him (and to a lesser extent, Vegeta), it won't be DB anymore. If they're going to replace those 2 they might as well end DB completely and just make another show. They could however make a mini series about them or TV specials every now and then.
I don’t watch Dragon Ball just for Goku you know.. I watch it because i love the SHOW (with all that it brings) Goku gets no special pass for me, just because he’s the main character. He’s just ONE of the many characters that makes the show great. Don’t put all the fans in the same category by saying “people”.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:21 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:43 pm
Well written Gokû is fun, well written Vegeta is satisfying....I'm not even sure who Vegeta's supposed to be anymore because the writers across Super couldn't seem to agree.
You got me interested, which are the moments where you thought Goku and Vegeta were well written as characters? Not saying that are none, but I want to read your opinion :)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:20 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:21 pm
Chuquita wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:43 pm
Well written Gokû is fun, well written Vegeta is satisfying....I'm not even sure who Vegeta's supposed to be anymore because the writers across Super couldn't seem to agree.
You got me interested, which are the moments where you thought Goku and Vegeta were well written as characters? Not saying that are none, but I want to read your opinion :)

For Vegeta it's easy to pinpoint two eras; both are in Z. Freeza arc Vegeta--when he's sneaking around collecting the dragon balls while taking down Freeza's underlings partly from the shadows; where he gets to be both smart and cool while being a threat to both the good and other bad guys. Second is Buu arc Vegeta--where the reintroduction of Gokû into his life has thrown Vegeta into an identity crisis and at a crossroads as to who he thinks of himself as and trying to figure out who he wants to be; I really enjoyed the Z anime's version of the Gokû vs Majin Vegeta fight, their decision to fuse and how unfusing affected them both, the number 1 speech.

Gokû...Gokû is Gokû. I think my favorite stretch for Gokû is the 23rd tournament through to the end of the Freeza arc. That's where imo he feels the most cohesive. The truest he can be.


Super's (both anime and manga) too full of ups and downs and has far too many writers in the room for me to be able to pick anything outside of scenes I liked or concepts I liked.

Picking scenes....Vegeta's speech to Rosé about Gokû being more than just a body. Gokû wailing on Goku Black and Zamasu after learning they killed his family. That episode where Gokû grappled with the loss of his ki control. And then there's silly things like the beards, them working at Beerus' place and training/living together there. The 3 years in the rosat even though we barely got to see it. The lead up to that on the green couch. The princess catch. The kool-aid man busting through the wall thing Gokû did after learning Vegeta was training under Whis. That time Bulma got upset at Gokû over something Champa(?) related early in Super's run and Vegeta came to Gokû's defense and shocked them both. Recently in the dbs manga where Vegeta could tell Gokû was scared about Moro and he silently offered to hold hands on the teleport to help Gokû relax.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:05 am

Goku and Vegeta are easily the best characters in the series, and perhaps even all of shonen. There aren't many rivalry dynamics that play to the strengths of the genre quite as well as theirs consistently has; without Goku, Vegeta would lose a lot of the context for his growth as a character, and without Vegeta, Goku loses an important foil element that makes his own approach to getting stronger so significant. They're essentially the yin and yang of Dragon Ball's identity at this point.

And hey, that's perfectly fine. The decision to make Super "the Goku and Vegeta show" is by no means a bad thing. The series has its problems, but I don't think the character distribution was ever one of them. There's a reason they've both maintained so much widespread appeal for 30 years and counting.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:33 am

Chuquita wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:20 pm
Recently in the dbs manga where Vegeta could tell Gokû was scared about Moro and he silently offered to hold hands on the teleport to help Gokû relax.
That actually had me go back to read that chapter again, thinking I must've missed something. That's... quite the interpretation.



Goku is Dragon Ball for a lot of people, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. People who have strong feelings towards their favorite characters might disagree here, but I don't think anyone else is suited to be the lead of the franchise. (Though I sometimes feel the manga really tries to "subtly" put Vegeta in that position)
The recent japanese popularity poll had Goku as the top pick for favorite character and he was far ahead of the nr. 2 spot, and yes, that obviously went to Vegeta. You'd think that after all the push Vegeta got the difference would be much smaller now, but he's was still far behind Goku- that's how much people love him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:43 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:05 am
The decision to make Super "the Goku and Vegeta show" is by no means a bad thing.
It was the logical next step after the Buu arc as that's who the 3rd part of the arc focused on. They don't need to take screentime away from Goku and Vegeta, just give the others more to do as well. One way to do that is have the others face minor threats while they take care of the main villain.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:53 am

There are a couple of issues with the current Goku/Vegeta duo that are making it hard to enjoy. Firstly, the lack of development. From Resurrection F onward, every story arc has started with them training together while Beerus, Whis and occasionally Bulma eat food in the background. There's been very little progression in these training sessions since they haven't learned anything since Whis' original teamwork and 'move without thinking' lessons in Resurrection F, which didn't get paid off until much later on with Gogeta and UI. And so far these have been relegated to Hail Marys while Super Saiyan Blue remains the default for both of them. I get that they're both fairly static characters now, and that's always been part of Goku's appeal, but the fact that they're not really learning anything and still following the same banter makes those segments hard to care about.

Second is the formula. Part of the reason people seem to be down on Moro despite the unique premise and exploration into a hitherto unexplored part of the series lore is because it's following almost the same script as the Broly movie which came out around the same time. Goku and Vegeta are training together, an outside element interrupts the training, they go to a location and fight a single foe, taking it in turns to do so. Resurrection F and Future Trunks also had variations of this exact plot, and it's also how the U6 tournament started. The Tournament of Power was the only one that deviated from the formula.

Lastly is that despite their rivalry being considered the core of the series now, it's still completely one-sided. Vegeta is finally keeping pace with Goku, which is something that never really happened in the original run after Namek, but he still has the same blase lack of care about it. Meanwhile every arc of Super with the exception of Future Trunks has introduced a new rival for Goku to chase. Beerus, Freeza, Hit, Jiren and Broly. It probably won't happen with Moro, but even so that's a lot of rivals for someone who supposedly already has a "one-and-only" in Vegeta. That means he still has to carry the investment, and in a post-Buu arc world it's hard to care about that. Either he's just being snarky about it (which was a fun novelty in Resurrection F and quickly got old after) or he slips back into outdated angry obsessive Vegeta. The Tournament of Power was awful about that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:42 am

I'm also bored of the Goku/Vegeta dynamic, and each of the characters separately. The only thing they've had is teaming up together, but that only had pay off in the TOP and it looks like they won't be behaving any differently.

And frankly, I found the need to have that subplot fairly disappointing with RF (as well as the other flaws RF introduced).

I could be fine with either of them if the series had other main fighters and broke up the formula of Goku/Vegeta alternating fights. I'd prefer to see one or both of them retired, but at least breaking things up a bit would be welcome.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolySSJL » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:09 am

I love Goku and Vegeta, but I'm also bored of them.

They are the protagonists and they need screentime, of course... but man, in all Super this two are the ONLY doing anything. At this point this situation feels like a parody.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:14 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:05 am
Goku and Vegeta are easily the best characters in the series, and perhaps even all of shonen.
How many shonen series have you seen/read?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:14 am

It's not that we have too much of Goku and Vegeta, it's that we have too much of them in the same scenarios. Many of these similar too previous moments from them.

Looking at it superficially, Zamasu arc, Broly's movie and this arc all share the taking turns fighting the big bad. We need stuff like Trunks playing a pivotal role without gaining unrealistic power ups like we had in the Zamasu arc(while getting some nice fight's), sprinkled with Kaioshin's help and Beerus sub-plot.

The Universal Tornament Arc had a large cast and many characters had their chance to shine, it was a nice break. But this arc is returning to the old (so far) boring form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:32 pm

I don't think any of you are bored of any of the characters. You're bored of he writing of everything around them. There's so much depth to Vegeta as a character, and Goku has so much meaning in being the ur-example of the shonen idiot hero but done well. I don't believe anyone who says they'd rather see Tenshinhan or something. There's nowhere near the kind of depth the two leads have present in any other Dragonball character. If Tenshinhan and, say, Yamcha were the leads going through these boring events, you'd be just as bored, but you'd have become bored much faster.

I don't think Dragonball NEEDS Goku and Vegeta to work. Not at all. However, Goku and Vegeta don't at all restrict the show or deaden the excitement in any way.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:22 pm

Goku and Vegeta are both very interesting characters in their own and I would never want them to be removed entirely from the story.
What’s getting boring is the fact they are always together, and their dynamic is more or less always the same, which is why they absolutely need to be split apart or to have some other characters to spice up their dynamic.
The Universal Survival arc did this great, with the very few interactions between the two actually being decent, while also having them interact with other characters.
I hope the next arc by Toriyama will break this trend of his of writing Goku and Vegeta always together: having a subplot for the two of them inside the same arc could be interesting. Maybe Vegeta could go on Sadala while Goku stays on Earth to train with Gohan or goes to Whis to train and master Ultra Instinct? Then a threat would force the two to reunite or to fight the villain/antagonist separately. There must surely be some way to not have the two always sticking together.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:41 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:32 pm
I don't think any of you are bored of any of the characters. You're bored of he writing of everything around them. There's so much depth to Vegeta as a character, and Goku has so much meaning in being the ur-example of the shonen idiot hero but done well. I don't believe anyone who says they'd rather see Tenshinhan or something. There's nowhere near the kind of depth the two leads have present in any other Dragonball character. If Tenshinhan and, say, Yamcha were the leads going through these boring events, you'd be just as bored, but you'd have become bored much faster.
Seconding this.

I don't even think there's anything wrong with their dynamic continuing to take front and center stage. I think the main problem a lot of people are having, myself included - even if they're not necessarily aware of it - is the recycled circumstances these characters are written into rather than the characters themselves. Having someone like Tien, Piccolo or even Gohan take the lead wouldn't alleviate those issues at all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm

Thirding.

Repeating the same song with different lyrics is boring me; as much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them. Why not send them and some of the others on an adventure in one of the other universes? They introduce 12 universes full of life and yet we're back on New Namek because....nostalgia? I dunno. It's tiring and I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
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