"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:28 pm

I don't think any of you are bored of any of the characters. You're bored of he writing of everything around them.
I am bored of both of these things and I've read enough fiction to know this well enough.

You are 100% correct the writing would need to be fixed for this not to be boring, but I wouldn't be as satisfied as I would be with changing the characters up as well.

Even just changing the characters could alleviate some of the boredom right now, as long as they're written true to their characters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:26 pm

I do not want to replace Goku & Vegeta as the leads but I also agree with the idea of splitting them up for awhile wouldn’t be a bad idea. Like why not have an A & B plot with both Goku and Vegeta doing their own thing but then the two separate plots converge together in the end.

And just because Goku & Vegeta May be the leads doesn’t mean they can’t give focus to other characters too.

I think Universal Survival arc had a good idea bringing in a lot of characters we haven’t seen in awhile. My issue with that arc was it was way too crowded. Not just with the U7 characters but all the other characters too. I think it would be good to give other characters besides Goku & Vegeta screentime but I still prefer a smaller focused cast.



Edit: As for Goku & Vegeta being two of the best Shounen characters of course that is personal opinion but it’s not debatable that both are iconic and very influential on characters that came after them in the Shounen Genre. I think for good or ill they have become so iconic that they have at times resorted to carictures of who they were in Dragonball & Z.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:21 pm

Saiga wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:28 pm
I am bored of both of these things and I've read enough fiction to know this well enough.

You are 100% correct the writing would need to be fixed for this not to be boring, but I wouldn't be as satisfied as I would be with changing the characters up as well.

Even just changing the characters could alleviate some of the boredom right now, as long as they're written true to their characters.
I apologize. It was dismissive of me to make such a blanket statement.

I don't think changing the characters will change much. It's the people coming up with the stories that need change how they do things. Maybe have people working directly with Toriyama. With this arc, Toyotaro has shown that he isn't there yet when it comes to making a story himself.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Toxin45 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:32 pm

So can we all get back on the progress on Moro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Toxin45 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:32 pm
So can we all get back on the progress on Moro.
I think this chapter should shed some more light on Moro's intentions. While Merus tries to try and extract Dai Kai from Buu. I'm wondering if Goku will be able to use Instantaneous Movement to get back to GP HQ now that he has rested for three days?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:21 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
Thirding.

Repeating the same song with different lyrics is boring me; as much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them. Why not send them and some of the others on an adventure in one of the other universes? They introduce 12 universes full of life and yet we're back on New Namek because....nostalgia? I dunno. It's tiring and I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
Yes, this is another problem I've had with the Moro fight,

12 new univeres, places in U17 they haven't visited (Makaioshin realm) and where do we go to fight this new villain?

To planet fucking Namek, I think even the most casual DB fan has seen enough of planet Namek for a life time, it's just such a boring location that Toriyama created just so he wouldn't have to ink the sky by giving it 3 suns :lol:

To sooner Goku and Vegeta get off planet Namek the better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 am

The Monkey King wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:21 pm
Chuquita wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
Thirding.

Repeating the same song with different lyrics is boring me; as much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them. Why not send them and some of the others on an adventure in one of the other universes? They introduce 12 universes full of life and yet we're back on New Namek because....nostalgia? I dunno. It's tiring and I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
Yes, this is another problem I've had with the Moro fight,

12 new univeres, places in U17 they haven't visited (Makaioshin realm) and where do we go to fight this new villain?

To planet fucking Namek, I think even the most casual DB fan has seen enough of planet Namek for a life time, it's just such a boring location that Toriyama created just so he wouldn't have to ink the sky by giving it 3 suns :lol:

To sooner Goku and Vegeta get off planet Namek the better.
What are you rambling on about? No one has seen enough of NEW Planet Namek this is the first time they visit that planet and interact with the namekians after so long you're talking about like if it's the Green Hill Zone of Dragon Ball

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:11 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 am

What are you rambling on about? No one has seen enough of NEW Planet Namek this is the first time they visit that planet and interact with the namekians after so long you're talking about like if it's the Green Hill Zone of Dragon Ball

We've had our share of Namek in the Freeza saga and that was more than plenty. There is nothing NEW about New Planet Namek besides the word "new" in the name.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:21 am

Chuquita wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
As much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them.

I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
That's probably because both characters completed their character arcs in the original manga (Goku when he passed the torch to Gohan in the Cell arc and Vegeta when he accepted that Goku was better than him in the Buu arc.). They managed to do a bit with them in BOG but DB was never intended to go on forever and it really shows now.

According to Geekdom, the anime's new arc is going to be full of fan service which based on the rest of modern DB (Apart from BOG), that's not really surprising.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:24 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 am
The Monkey King wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:21 pm
Chuquita wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
Thirding.

Repeating the same song with different lyrics is boring me; as much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them. Why not send them and some of the others on an adventure in one of the other universes? They introduce 12 universes full of life and yet we're back on New Namek because....nostalgia? I dunno. It's tiring and I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
Yes, this is another problem I've had with the Moro fight,

12 new univeres, places in U17 they haven't visited (Makaioshin realm) and where do we go to fight this new villain?

To planet fucking Namek, I think even the most casual DB fan has seen enough of planet Namek for a life time, it's just such a boring location that Toriyama created just so he wouldn't have to ink the sky by giving it 3 suns :lol:

To sooner Goku and Vegeta get off planet Namek the better.
What are you rambling on about? No one has seen enough of NEW Planet Namek this is the first time they visit that planet and interact with the namekians after so long you're talking about like if it's the Green Hill Zone of Dragon Ball

While I agree that Namek hasn't been as present in the franchise as most might believe (courtesy of the "still on Namek ?"joke) I can't exactly blame people for being less than thrilled about picking it as a location for a new story. You can apply the same critic as for the Vegeta/ Goku dynamic: nothing new is being done with Namek and Namekians. They're still mostly farmers, they still get attacked because of their dragon balls, fusion is still their go-to technique and it still fails. It's basically the Freeza arc all over again, and for now, the new coat of paint isn't doing much.
In all fairness though, there are very few locations in this franchise that I would deem interesting, Toriyama really loves his wide, empty spaces. I don't even know if Moro will get to make his wish since it seems he's already gotten what he wanted from Goku and Vegeta, so I wouldn't even be surprised if we're done with Namek soon.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:00 am

sintzu wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:21 am
Chuquita wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
As much as I really enjoy Gokû and Vegeta, this is boring me because they're not doing anything new with them.

I hope the anime when it returns does something new and fresh. This over reliance on nostalgia is suffocating any potential creativity, imo.
That's probably because both characters completed their character arcs in the original manga (Goku when he passed the torch to Gohan in the Cell arc and Vegeta when he accepted that Goku was better than him in the Buu arc.). They managed to do a bit with them in BOG but DB was never intended to go on forever and it really shows now.

According to Geekdom, the anime's new arc is going to be full of fan service which based on the rest of modern DB (Apart from BOG), that's not really surprising.
Yeah I found that announcement pretty amusing when that is pretty much what modern Dragon Ball is . Fanservice and Nostalgia

I do enjoy a lot of the “fanservice” and have fun with it. But saying an arc is full of fanservice is like saying the sky is blue for how much it tells us



And while it’s true Goku and Vegeta ended their character arcs in Z it’s not like there is nothing NEW that can be done with them or that they can’t develop them in new directions. It’s just the writers want to stick to the status quo.

That’s could be fine too if other characters around them were developing but that isn’t really happening either.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:14 am

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:00 am
While it’s true Goku and Vegeta ended their character arcs in Z it’s not like there is nothing NEW that can be done with them or that they can’t develop them in new directions. It’s just the writers want to stick to the status quo.

That’s could be fine too if other characters around them were developing but that isn’t really happening either.
There probably are some small ways to develop them but nothing major enough to sustain a show/story this long. I agree that the status quo is holding things back.

Others like Gohan are just going in circles. Everything about him getting his powers back in the TOP was the exact same development he went through during the Buu arc. To make things worse, he had his full powers against Beerus in BOG so how he went from that to barely going Ssj in RF is something I'll never understand.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by louisascommie » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 am

Michsi wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:24 am
Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 am
The Monkey King wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:21 pm

Yes, this is another problem I've had with the Moro fight,

12 new univeres, places in U17 they haven't visited (Makaioshin realm) and where do we go to fight this new villain?

To planet fucking Namek, I think even the most casual DB fan has seen enough of planet Namek for a life time, it's just such a boring location that Toriyama created just so he wouldn't have to ink the sky by giving it 3 suns :lol:

To sooner Goku and Vegeta get off planet Namek the better.
What are you rambling on about? No one has seen enough of NEW Planet Namek this is the first time they visit that planet and interact with the namekians after so long you're talking about like if it's the Green Hill Zone of Dragon Ball

While I agree that Namek hasn't been as present in the franchise as most might believe (courtesy of the "still on Namek ?"joke) I can't exactly blame people for being less than thrilled about picking it as a location for a new story. You can apply the same critic as for the Vegeta/ Goku dynamic: nothing new is being done with Namek and Namekians. They're still mostly farmers, they still get attacked because of their dragon balls, fusion is still their go-to technique and it still fails. It's basically the Freeza arc all over again, and for now, the new coat of paint isn't doing much.
In all fairness though, there are very few locations in this franchise that I would deem interesting, Toriyama really loves his wide, empty spaces. I don't even know if Moro will get to make his wish since it seems he's already gotten what he wanted from Goku and Vegeta, so I wouldn't even be surprised if we're done with Namek soon.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 am

sintzu wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:14 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:00 am
While it’s true Goku and Vegeta ended their character arcs in Z it’s not like there is nothing NEW that can be done with them or that they can’t develop them in new directions. It’s just the writers want to stick to the status quo.

That’s could be fine too if other characters around them were developing but that isn’t really happening either.
There probably are some small ways to develop them but nothing major enough to sustain a show/story this long. I agree that the status quo is holding things back.

Others like Gohan are just going in circles. Everything about him getting his powers back in the TOP was the exact same development he went through during the Buu arc. To make things worse, he had his full powers against Beerus in BOG so how he went from that to barely going Ssj in RF is something I'll never understand.

What about developing them as mentor characters to others could be an interesting place to take Goku and Vegeta


They could have done this with Cabba and Vegeta and then you have Caulifla and Kale for Goku (heck even Gohan could have a mentor role here)


The boat has already sailed with Cabba but I was thinking if they had made him more troubled (but not evil) perhaps his relationship with Vegeta could have developed in more interesting ways.

Or even instead of just randomly giving Goku and Vegeta power ups when they are up against someone strong why not have them overcome flaws and learn something to make those power ups feel earned.


Even if the development isn’t going to be something major it’s not like there is nothing new they can do with Goku and Vegeta even if it is just forming new relationships for them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:43 am

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 am
What about developing them as mentor characters to others ? They could have done this with Cabba and Vegeta and then you have Caulifla and Kale for Goku (heck even Gohan could have a mentor role here) The boat has already sailed with Cabba but I was thinking if they had made him more troubled (but not evil) perhaps his relationship with Vegeta could have developed in more interesting ways.

Or even instead of just randomly giving Goku and Vegeta power ups when they are up against someone strong why not have them overcome flaws and learn something to make those power ups feel earned.
I think there are ways they can have Cabba learn from Vegeta such as self confidence. If they go to sadal that would be an interesting road to take.

Super's arcs are very short for some reason so unless they decide to have them fleshed out like the original manga there won't be much room for them to learn. Look at Future Trunks, he just got one random power up after another in his arc due to a lack of time to develop him and have him earn those powers properly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:58 am

sintzu wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:43 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 am
What about developing them as mentor characters to others ? They could have done this with Cabba and Vegeta and then you have Caulifla and Kale for Goku (heck even Gohan could have a mentor role here) The boat has already sailed with Cabba but I was thinking if they had made him more troubled (but not evil) perhaps his relationship with Vegeta could have developed in more interesting ways.

Or even instead of just randomly giving Goku and Vegeta power ups when they are up against someone strong why not have them overcome flaws and learn something to make those power ups feel earned.
I think there are ways they can have Cabba learn from Vegeta such as self confidence. If they go to sadal that would be an interesting road to take.

Super's arcs are very short for some reason so unless they decide to have them fleshed out like the original manga there won't be much room for them to learn. Look at Future Trunks, he just got one random power up after another in his arc due to a lack of time to develop him and have him earn those powers properly.

Yes the problem isn’t just Goku and Vegeta at all but people like to focus on them.

The US arc was definitely long enough to add some development but they just didn’t bother.


Development in Super

Android 17 I want to wish for a boat
Android 17 I want to wish for all the Universes to come back


But nothing in between to show how he has changed and grew over the course of the arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 am
What are you rambling on about? No one has seen enough of NEW Planet Namek this is the first time they visit that planet and interact with the namekians
Mute_proxy summed up my point rather well:
mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:11 am
We've had our share of Namek in the Freeza saga and that was more than plenty. There is nothing NEW about New Planet Namek besides the word "new" in the name.
I want Toyo to get to a new location ASAP
Even the Dragon Ball Earth is a more interesting location than Namek
after so long you're talking about like if it's the Green Hill Zone of Dragon Ball
Funny that you mention that because I and other Sonic fans have gotten tired of Sega trotting out Green Hill Zone repeatedly for cheap nostalgia pandering, it's gotten predictable and boring.

Having Green Hill as a secret zone in Sonic Adventure 2 was a perfect nod to the game's roots

Having Green Hill Zone appear in: Generations, Mania, Forces as the 1st levels has become stale and predictable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:33 pm

Unfortunately...The Dragonball's Moro heard about are the one's on Namek. So we have no choice but to be at Namek.

If it makes many of you feel better at least Beerus agrees that Namek is boring too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:21 pm
Saiga wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:28 pm
I am bored of both of these things and I've read enough fiction to know this well enough.

You are 100% correct the writing would need to be fixed for this not to be boring, but I wouldn't be as satisfied as I would be with changing the characters up as well.

Even just changing the characters could alleviate some of the boredom right now, as long as they're written true to their characters.
I apologize. It was dismissive of me to make such a blanket statement.

I don't think changing the characters will change much. It's the people coming up with the stories that need change how they do things. Maybe have people working directly with Toriyama. With this arc, Toyotaro has shown that he isn't there yet when it comes to making a story himself.
Yeah, I agree with this. I think Toyotaro does his best work when he's given an idea and has to make it work within the story. I also think being behind the anime helps, because I'm fairly sure he's taken inspiration from there before (it's hard to tell what is in both stories because its in Toriyama's draft, or because Toyotaro has the opportunity to see the anime's take on things months in advance of adapting it himself).

If we see the anime start following the manga it could result in the anime improving by taking cues from Toyotarou, but I have much more faith in Toyotaro's ability to adapt so I'd prefer to see him following them as we had before.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:39 pm

This Moro arc really needs to pick up the pace.

A big problem with the arc is that unlike many other DB arcs, the main villain has no connection to the main cast (or sometimes previously established events or worlds in the DB world history). If you look, you can see that a main interest brought by main villains are their connections to the main cast. Without them, they feel like random villains that have come out of nowhere.

In this case, Moro only has connections to the Daikaioshin and South Kaioshin, both not of the main cast. Some could argue that he connects to Buu since Buu absorbed the Daikaioshin but thats more of a copout excuse. Buu is a whole different character. You could also say Moro is connected to the Galactic Patrol but we really only care for Jaco and he’s not of the main cast anyway. Not to mention, Moro didn’t even feel remotely connected to Jaco considering Jaco never met the guy.

So yeah, a big thing going against Moro.

Another is his ability. Sure his main ability is cool and all but if you’re gonna do the whole “warlock” thing, give him other powers and techniques. He’s like the equivalent of someone in a DB game spamming the same attack over and over.

Finally, his personality. It was cool at first but its getting boring. Freeza is an example of someone being evil just to be evil done right. Vegeta and Cell actually had motives to be evil. Kid Buu was a pure evil incarnate basically and even then, we basically had multiple personalities of the main villain of Buu which made it so that we wouldn’t get tired of him. Maybe give Moro a motive for his villainy.

Back to the pacing, I’d actually like Moro to get his wish and for them to extract the Daikaioshin OR somehow activate his personality within Buu all next chapter.
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