"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Michsi]

That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

He's gotten his butt kicked so much in the past so giving him a break isn't a bad idea. He's my favorite anime character so anything he gets is fine in my book.

Exactly, I imagine for those who have him as their favorite- and there are many, don't get wrong, I'm more than aware of that- they'd love this. It's just that usually excessive wish-fulfillment is the main thing people criticize fan fiction for and if he's taking that fan attitude and applying it in the official work then it doesn't bode well for the rest of the fans.

[Lionel]

That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

He's gotten his butt kicked so much in the past so giving him a break isn't a bad idea. He's my favorite anime character so anything he gets is fine in my book.

Vegeta is put through the meat grinder, true, but he also has a habit of leaving an impression in the process. Examples would be his Final Flash against Cell, launching a surprise barrage against Beerus in outrage, and his resurgence against Jiren after having evolved his blue form -- even against Freeza in his final form, his most powerful attack did prompt the tyrant to finally exert himself in order to repel it. More than that, he eventually does manage to surpass said threat.

I think if anyone has been emasculated without hope for a comeback it would be someone like Yamcha. There have been some exceptions like his Sokidan allowing him to defy the odds for a brief moment against Kami, but when he's brought down, that's usually it. Yamcha doesn't leave an impression on Gero or Jackie Chun in the process of losing -- and while he did manage to surpass the early benchmarks, come mid-Dragon Ball Z he's just a footnote who can't even throw a punch anymore. Personally, I wish more was afforded to the likes of him.

For all of Vegeta's weaknesses, he's undoubtedly the second most considered and appreciated character after Goku himself. If he can take advantage of a Jiren-esque team up akin to Goku and Freeza's then his contribution will be hailed for its necessity.

[sintzu]

Vegeta is put through the meat grinder, true, but he also has a habit of leaving an impression in the process.

Of course. I'm not saying he hasn't been written well as every loss he takes he makes up for it with a massive win. I just think it's time for him to get his own arc.

[Sora Saiyan]

I wasn't aware he had been anywhere else except in the spotlight.

Problem is it's not a secret that Toyotaro's favors Vegeta which makes his treatment of him seem preferential-andfor those who aren't particularly enamored with Vegeta this might start to get annoying. That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

Vegeta has had good roles in both the anime and the manga, in the mangas take on the Black arc Vegeta had more of a role than the anime, but the ToP threw Vegeta more of a bone with the extra screen time and fights. Also, Toyo does like Vegeta, as is apparent, but he has already confirmed that Goku was, and still is his favourite character.

[Lionel]

Vegeta is put through the meat grinder, true, but he also has a habit of leaving an impression in the process.

Of course. I'm not saying he hasn't been written well as every loss he takes he makes up for it with a massive win. I just think it's time for him to get his own arc.

Honestly, I think a potential Sadala arc would be the best place for that. If Vegeta gets this arc and then a prospective Sadala arc would that be a lot? I'll admit that if a Sadala arc isn't in the wing then developing Vegeta in another arc would probably be best. Me, I'm just trying to think of a place for it here. As of now, this arc's emphasis on Planet Namek, Kaioshins, and magic utilisation seems almost opposite to what the Saiyans represent, at least in my opinion.

[sintzu]

This arc's emphasis on Planet Namek, Kaioshins, and magic utilisation seems almost opposite to what the Saiyans represent, at least in my opinion.

I agree. This was the last arc I thought Vegeta would get focued on in. If anything this seems like a Piccolo and Buu centric arc.

[Michsi]

I wasn't aware he had been anywhere else except in the spotlight.

Problem is it's not a secret that Toyotaro's favors Vegeta which makes his treatment of him seem preferential-andfor those who aren't particularly enamored with Vegeta this might start to get annoying. That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

Vegeta has had good roles in both the anime and the manga, in the mangas take on the Black arc Vegeta had more of a role than the anime, but the ToP threw Vegeta more of a bone with the extra screen time and fights. Also, Toyo does like Vegeta, as is apparent, but he has already confirmed that Goku was, and still is his favourite character.

I'm not sure I buy that. Seems like something he'd say to fend off suspicions about his past as Toyble. I haven't read any of his fancomics, but those that have said that Vegeta was practically the MC there.
If he'd admit that Vegeta is his favorite on top of everything else then that might make Vegeta's improved role and presence feel less organic and more shoehorned due to favoritism. There's always been discussions if fans really should ever be in charge of the properties they are fans.

This arc's emphasis on Planet Namek, Kaioshins, and magic utilisation seems almost opposite to what the Saiyans represent, at least in my opinion.

I agree. This was the last arc I thought Vegeta would get focued on in. If anything this seems like a Piccolo and Buu centric arc.

Which you can see why some fans would be a little annoyed with Vegeta taking center stage here. Moro's been likened to King Piccolo a lot, it's taking place on Namek and the one character that has a link to all of this isn't around.

[Sora Saiyan]

I wasn't aware he had been anywhere else except in the spotlight.

Problem is it's not a secret that Toyotaro's favors Vegeta which makes his treatment of him seem preferential-andfor those who aren't particularly enamored with Vegeta this might start to get annoying. That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

Vegeta has had good roles in both the anime and the manga, in the mangas take on the Black arc Vegeta had more of a role than the anime, but the ToP threw Vegeta more of a bone with the extra screen time and fights. Also, Toyo does like Vegeta, as is apparent, but he has already confirmed that Goku was, and still is his favourite character.

I'm not sure I buy that. Seems like something he'd say to fend off suspicions about his past as Toyble. I haven't read any of his fancomics, but those that have said that Vegeta was practically the MC there.
If he'd admit that Vegeta is his favorite on top of everything else then that might make Vegeta's improved role and presence feel less organic and more shoehorned due to favoritism. There's always been discussions if fans really should ever be in charge of the properties they are fans.

It didn't seem like that, he was just asked who his favourite character was when he was a kid, to which he replied "Goku! And he's still number 1." He didn't need to emphasise that Goku is still his favourite, yet he decided to. People usually just assume that your favourite as a kid remains the same.

Anyway, I don't quite understand why people make a big deal about how Vegeta has been handled. U6 is basically the same as the anime, the Zamasu arc gives Vegeta the minor boss fight, but then Goku fights the big boss M Zamasu one on one, and matches him. Vegeta could only dream of that at that point. The Zamasu arc clearly favoured Goku due to that fight, as it established that Goku still has the whole 'anything Vegeta can do, I can do better' schtick. ToP was all about Goku, but Vegeta gets a little bit of a moment with his power up. Then the Moro arc is showing Vegeta off a little now, but let's see how far that actually goes, because Vegeta may still be being used as the gauging stick for the new big bad. If that does end up being the case then it's not really much different than how he was handled in the Black arc, he had character moments showing how he cares for his family, and he fought the main villain prior to then being their most powerful. The Moro arc is still a little early in yet. It's nice for Vegeta fans that he's been handed a bone, but if it remains the same formula of 'Vegetas done/said something nice, and he's fought the main antagonist but lost, or at best served in being a tool for Goku to find a way to win.' it's gonna get boring real fast.
This has happened in almost all of the arcs so far.

[sintzu]

I don't quite understand why people make a big deal about how Vegeta has been handled. U6 is basically the same as the anime, the Zamasu arc gives Vegeta the minor boss fight, but then Goku fights the big boss M Zamasu one on one, and matches him. Vegeta could only dream of that at that point. The Zamasu arc clearly favoured Goku due to that fight, as it established that Goku still has the whole 'anything Vegeta can do, I can do better' schtick. ToP was all about Goku, but Vegeta gets a little bit of a moment with his power up. Then the Moro arc is showing Vegeta off a little now, but let's see how far that actually goes, because Vegeta may still be being used as the gauging stick for the new big bad. If that does end up being the case then it's not really much different than how he was handled in the Black arc, he had character moments showing how he cares for his family, and he fought the main villain prior to then being their most powerful. The Moro arc is still a little early in yet. It's nice for Vegeta fans that he's been handed a bone, but if it remains the same formula of 'Vegetas done/said something nice, and he's fought the main antagonist but lost, or at best served in being a tool for Goku to find a way to win.' it's gonna get boring real fast.
This has happened in almost all of the arcs so far.

By allowing Vegeta to take down Black and Toppo, and allowing him to get the final beat down on Freeza, Super's writers (Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro) have managed to make him very important while also keeping the main spotlight on Goku. It's a win-win at this point so anything more is a bonus.

[Michsi]

Vegeta has had good roles in both the anime and the manga, in the mangas take on the Black arc Vegeta had more of a role than the anime, but the ToP threw Vegeta more of a bone with the extra screen time and fights. Also, Toyo does like Vegeta, as is apparent, but he has already confirmed that Goku was, and still is his favourite character.

I'm not sure I buy that. Seems like something he'd say to fend off suspicions about his past as Toyble. I haven't read any of his fancomics, but those that have said that Vegeta was practically the MC there.
If he'd admit that Vegeta is his favorite on top of everything else then that might make Vegeta's improved role and presence feel less organic and more shoehorned due to favoritism. There's always been discussions if fans really should ever be in charge of the properties they are fans.

It didn't seem like that, he was just asked who his favourite character was when he was a kid, to which he replied "Goku! And he's still number 1." He didn't need to emphasise that Goku is still his favourite, yet he decided to. People usually just assume that your favourite as a kid remains the same.

Anyway, I don't quite understand why people make a big deal about how Vegeta has been handled. U6 is basically the same as the anime, the Zamasu arc gives Vegeta the minor boss fight, but then Goku fights the big boss M Zamasu one on one, and matches him. Vegeta could only dream of that at that point. The Zamasu arc clearly favoured Goku due to that fight, as it established that Goku still has the whole 'anything Vegeta can do, I can do better' schtick. ToP was all about Goku, but Vegeta gets a little bit of a moment with his power up. Then the Moro arc is showing Vegeta off a little now, but let's see how far that actually goes, because Vegeta may still be being used as the gauging stick for the new big bad. If that does end up being the case then it's not really much different than how he was handled in the Black arc, he had character moments showing how he cares for his family, and he fought the main villain prior to then being their most powerful. The Moro arc is still a little early in yet. It's nice for Vegeta fans that he's been handed a bone, but if it remains the same formula of 'Vegetas done/said something nice, and he's fought the main antagonist but lost, or at best served in being a tool for Goku to find a way to win.' it's gonna get boring real fast.
This has happened in almost all of the arcs so far.

Again, he could have very well said that about Goku and not have been 100% (over even 70%) honest about it. If his past work contradicts that then we can take his answer there with a grain or more of salt.

That Goku will always come out on top power-wise is pretty much a given and I don't think he'd ever try to take it so far as to put Vegeta ahead of Goku as a fighter- but in every other aspect, especially character related ones, yes, because it's easier to turn these in Vegeta's favor and still say Goku's the best when it's him that defeats the enemy.
This chapter really has me curious because those reviews don't just point towards this being Vegeta-centric, but also very, very flattering for the character.

[sintzu]

Goku will always come out on top power-wise is pretty much a given and I don't think he'd ever try to take it so far as to put Vegeta ahead of Goku as a fighter.

The only one who could put Vegeta ahead like that is Toriyama himself. There's only one time I cans see that happening and that's if he decided to give Vegeta UI as it being random can enable him to take Goku out of the picture without it feeling forced. That's of course assuming he doesn't take Vegeta in a different direction from UI.

[Michsi]

Goku will always come out on top power-wise is pretty much a given and I don't think he'd ever try to take it so far as to put Vegeta ahead of Goku as a fighter.

The only one who could put Vegeta ahead like that is Toriyama himself. There's only one time I cans see that happening and that's if he decided to give Vegeta UI as it being random can enable him to take Goku out of the picture without it feeling forced. That's of course assuming he doesn't take Vegeta in a different direction from UI.

Well, there was an interview once where Toriyama said he had no problems with a story that would put Vegeta as the main character, but people seem convinced this arc is Toyotaro's brainchild, so who knows.

We've got about a day left until the chapter's online, so I'll see whether my assumptions about Vegeta hold any water or not. It seems Boo's character also goes through a change and I don't know if this is about how Toyotaro writes him or if this means the Kaioshin he absorbed has been removed and his personality was altered because of that.

[sintzu]

People seem convinced this arc is Toyotaro's brainchild, so who knows.

It is but Toriyama is involved with it, at least according to Toyotaro. He can put Vegeta in the lead without making him stronger than Goku. One way is to simply have Goku off doing something else while he takes care of the main bad.

[Sora Saiyan]

By allowing Vegeta to take down Black and Toppo, and allowing him to get the final beat down on Freeza, Super's writers (Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro) have managed to make him very important while also keeping the main spotlight on Goku. It's a win-win at this point so anything more is a bonus.

See, this is how I feel about it. The whole Vegetas being favoured in the manga thing isn't the case for me. He gets character moments in both mediums, U6 is basically equal, Zamasu arc is pretty equal, but Gokus role is greater in the manga when compared to anime Goku due to him being equal with Zamasu in the final battle, and mastering Blue.
ToP in the anime gave Vegeta better character moments and showed how much he cared for Cabba, and others. The manga didn't really go there, Vegetas transformation had more impact there too. Honestly Vegeta seems to have been handled equally in both for me. The Moro arc may change it up, but it's too early to tell. It doesn't seem like Toyo is wanking Vegeta at all IMO.

Vegeta is easier to have those nice character moments with because Gokus expected to be nice, and Vegeta.. well he's more of a dick. So I don't even like comparing the handling of those scenes between the characters.

[Kinokima]

Honestly at this point I don’t even care if Vegeta beats a main villain. It would be nice but I don’t really think it is necessary. And who knows if that is going to happen in this arc.

From the spoilers or opinion that was presented I am more looking forward to moments that emotionally grow him as a character.

[Kanassa]

Vegeta's never really been good leading man material after the Namek Saga, becoming just a product of power wank, bland 'I'm14andI'msoBadassGuys' lines and lazy character development.

[Kinokima]

It’s funny how just the possibility of Vegeta as the focus of an arc (nothing has been confirmed it’s just speculation) you get people coming out to say what a bad character he is and completely diminishing a character who is one of the major characters of the series in a few sentences. Note you can diminish any character that way.


Personally I almost hope it’s not true so I don’t have to hear endless complaining and character bashing from people who dislike the character. As long as I get nice character moments for Vegeta I’ll be happy.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That review makes it seem like Vegeta is turning awfully Mary Sue-ish.

He's gotten his butt kicked so much in the past so giving him a break isn't a bad idea. He's my favorite anime character so anything he gets is fine in my book.

Exactly, I imagine for those who have him as their favorite- and there are many, don't get wrong, I'm more than aware of that- they'd love this. It's just that usually excessive wish-fulfillment is the main thing people criticize fan fiction for and if he's taking that fan attitude and applying it in the official work then it doesn't bode well for the rest of the fans.

But according to Toyotaro, Toriyama himself is also involved in this saga. So even if the plan is to give Vegeta more prominence, he could not simply give it UI and related thing without Toriyama approving, so it's not like a fan fic.

It’s funny how just the possibility of Vegeta as the focus of an arc (nothing has been confirmed it’s just speculation) you get people coming out to say what a bad character he is and completely diminishing a character who is one of the major characters of the series in a few sentences. Note you can diminish any character that way.


Personally I almost hope it’s not true so I don’t have to hear endless complaining and character bashing from people who dislike the character. As long as I get nice character moments for Vegeta I’ll be happy.

Even before this spoiler / opinion, some people were already saying that Vegeta was getting much more prominent pages and that Goku was being devalued in this arc, ignoring that he is the main character throughout the anime.

Even when Vegeta gets more prominent in comparison to the anime (FT saga), Goku is still the big protagonist (as for example, he equates to Merged Zamasu and dominating the Blue while Vegeta could not even train in the RoSaT for 1 year)

[Michsi]

He's gotten his butt kicked so much in the past so giving him a break isn't a bad idea. He's my favorite anime character so anything he gets is fine in my book.

Exactly, I imagine for those who have him as their favorite- and there are many, don't get wrong, I'm more than aware of that- they'd love this. It's just that usually excessive wish-fulfillment is the main thing people criticize fan fiction for and if he's taking that fan attitude and applying it in the official work then it doesn't bode well for the rest of the fans.

But according to Toyotaro, Toriyama himself is also involved in this saga. So even if the plan is to give Vegeta more prominence, he could not simply give it UI and related thing without Toriyama approving, so it's not like a fan fic.

I know, I'm pretty sure Toriyama still checks everything . I just have this impression that he's pretty lenient in regards to certain issues. The most I've seen him interfere is related to character designs or poses. Given how different the anime and manga can be at times, I'd say he's okay with letting the writers have their freedom.

[Kanassa]

It’s funny how just the possibility of Vegeta as the focus of an arc (nothing has been confirmed it’s just speculation) you get people coming out to say what a bad character he is and completely diminishing a character who is one of the major characters of the series in a few sentences. Note you can diminish any character that way.


Personally I almost hope it’s not true so I don’t have to hear endless complaining and character bashing from people who dislike the character. As long as I get nice character moments for Vegeta I’ll be happy.

I know, it's hilarious; who would have guessed that the more prominent a character is in a story, the more people will probably talk about their perception of the character?

Also, I shit talked Vegeta LONG before the manga even existed.