"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:29 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:58 pm

His body was literally going down in forms that consume less energy because the energy was being drained from his body. If that's not confirmation that SS3 uses less energy than SSG I don't know what is.

Why do people want SS3 to be unusable? The stamina isn't an issue as an SS3 anymore for Goku, especially since SSB was outright stated to have a ridiculous stamina toll in the manga, and he managed to overcome that too.
I'm not talking about the use of SS3, I'm saying SSG and SSB do not work like SS1-3, and the downgrade in the manga makes no sense. He should've popped to his Base, not SS3

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:42 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:29 pm
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:58 pm

His body was literally going down in forms that consume less energy because the energy was being drained from his body. If that's not confirmation that SS3 uses less energy than SSG I don't know what is.

Why do people want SS3 to be unusable? The stamina isn't an issue as an SS3 anymore for Goku, especially since SSB was outright stated to have a ridiculous stamina toll in the manga, and he managed to overcome that too.
I'm not talking about the use of SS3, I'm saying SSG and SSB do not work like SS1-3, and the downgrade in the manga makes no sense. He should've popped to his Base, not SS3
It works if you think of it as his body automatically adjusting itself to use next most powerful available form in terms of energy available, rather than just straight dropping. That's how I view it anyways.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:08 pm

In the exhibition match against Toppo, Whis stated Goku has SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, god and blue. Goku went through those transformations in that order. So why wouldn't Goku go backwards from that?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:48 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:08 pm
In the exhibition match against Toppo, Whis stated Goku has SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, god and blue. Goku went through those transformations in that order. So why wouldn't Goku go backwards from that?
Though in this sense he is just being coherent with itself (if it's possible to transform from Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan God, then it is obviously possible to revert it), it is still technically not possible if you look it from a broader perspective.

If you are going to use god power while transformed (in this case Super Saiyan 3) then logic would tell you would have Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3. Realistically speaking, Goku would have to revert to base form before transforming into/activating Super Saiyan God/the god ki if he doesn't want to use that form.

This is not something we should expect them to be consistent, though. Younger viewers would probably wonder why Goku doesn't just transform from one form to another... It's kinda understandable though not correct.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:01 am

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:08 pm
In the exhibition match against Toppo, Whis stated Goku has SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, god and blue. Goku went through those transformations in that order. So why wouldn't Goku go backwards from that?
Though in this sense he is just being coherent with itself (if it's possible to transform from Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan God, then it is obviously possible to revert it), it is still technically not possible if you look it from a broader perspective.

If you are going to use god power while transformed (in this case Super Saiyan 3) then logic would tell you would have Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3. Realistically speaking, Goku would have to revert to base form before transforming into/activating Super Saiyan God/the god ki if he doesn't want to use that form.

This is not something we should expect them to be consistent, though. Younger viewers would probably wonder why Goku doesn't just transform from one form to another... It's kinda understandable though not correct.
There's Super Saiyan then god forms. God forms then super Saiyan reversed. There is no god powers in Super Saiyan or base forms [Never stated]. Moro absorbed their god powers, next he siphoned their Super Saiyan powers and base. It's consistent within the universe.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:06 am

Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:01 am
There's Super Saiyan then god forms. God forms then super Saiyan reversed.
There isn't. Super Saiyan is part of a branch of transformations, Super Saiyan God is part of another.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:01 am
There is no god powers in Super Saiyan
There is, that's exactly what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is/means.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:06 am
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:01 am
There's Super Saiyan then god forms. God forms then super Saiyan reversed.
There isn't. Super Saiyan is part of a branch of transformations, Super Saiyan God is part of another.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:01 am
There is no god powers in Super Saiyan
There is, that's exactly what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is/means.
Incorrect, Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan god's powered up version. It is separate from Super Saiyan. God powers are only achieved when an individual does not let the Ki seep out of his body, unlike Super Saiyan forms.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:08 pm
In the exhibition match against Toppo, Whis stated Goku has SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, god and blue. Goku went through those transformations in that order. So why wouldn't Goku go backwards from that?
Because he willfully transformed from ss3 to a different branch of forms. He just didn't revert to base before doing so. In reverse it shouldn't work, because he did not do it of his own will (jump to a lesser branch of forms), he should've gone straight to base, because ssgod isnt an extension of SS3

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:03 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:55 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:08 pm
In the exhibition match against Toppo, Whis stated Goku has SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, god and blue. Goku went through those transformations in that order. So why wouldn't Goku go backwards from that?
Because he willfully transformed from ss3 to a different branch of forms. He just didn't revert to base before doing so. In reverse it shouldn't work, because he did not do it of his own will (jump to a lesser branch of forms), he should've gone straight to base, because ssgod isnt an extension of SS3
God is just a STRONGER version of Goku's forms that comes after SSJ states. It's just to show weakest to strongest. I'm not saying SSJ is the same as the god forms.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
Incorrect,
Tell that to official sources and even to Goku himself who said so.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan god's powered up version.(...)
Yes, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God, but that's just a general explanation. Just like Super Saiyan 2 is a powered-up form of Super Saiyan. However, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has a "deeper"/another not generic meaning. Which is what is stated in official sources and by Goku himself.

Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
God powers are only achieved when an individual does not let the Ki seep out of his body, unlike Super Saiyan forms.
No, god powers are what you get from transforming into Super Saiyan God, you can even absorb it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:38 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:28 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
Incorrect,
Tell that to official sources and even to Goku himself who said so.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan god's powered up version.(...)
Yes, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a powered-up version of Super Saiyan God, but that's just a general explanation. Just like Super Saiyan 2 is a powered-up form of Super Saiyan. However, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has a "deeper"/another not generic meaning. Which is what is stated in official sources and by Goku himself.

Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:22 pm
God powers are only achieved when an individual does not let the Ki seep out of his body, unlike Super Saiyan forms.
No, god powers are what you get from transforming into Super Saiyan God, you can even absorb it.
No, Kaioshin and Beerus has god powers, yet doesn't transform. In order for one to have god status they must NOT let the Ki seep out. THIS is how Goku and Vegeta transform into god. This is why they can't be sensed by others who don't have such powers when in that state. This was stated in the CANON Battle of God's movie, written by Toriyama himself.

In order for one to transform into Super Saiyan they do not need to keep their Ki contained from within like the god transformations. They are not the same. Transforming from the weakest [SSJ] to the strongest [god] and vice versa are separate, coherent universal events. You are simply mixing things up.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:58 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:38 pm
No, Kaioshin and Beerus has god powers, yet doesn't transform.
That is correct, Beerus (probably not Kaioshin because it was never stated the characters couldn't sense him during the 25º tournament) has god powers yet doesn't transform. As well as he possesses Ultra Instinct yet doesn't transform. There's no in-universe explanation for that. Also, we're not talking about them. We're talking about Goku, the one who needs to transform.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:38 pm
In order for one to have god status they must NOT let the Ki seep out. (...) This was stated in the CANON Battle of God's movie, written by Toriyama himself
You are the one mixing things up. This "god ki must not seep out" comes from Toei continuity only. Nothing like that is present in the actual movie.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:37 pm

Just want to point out that Goku went from Super Saiyan straight to God form in the Broly Movie. So it really doesn't matter if SSJ3 is Connected to God. Based on my conclusion, Goku's body jumping from God to SSJ3 makes sense if you assume that God form takes up more energy than SSJ3.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:25 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:58 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:38 pm
No, Kaioshin and Beerus has god powers, yet doesn't transform.
That is correct, Beerus (probably not Kaioshin because it was never stated the characters couldn't sense him during the 25º tournament) has god powers yet doesn't transform. As well as he possesses Ultra Instinct yet doesn't transform. There's no in-universe explanation for that. Also, we're not talking about them. We're talking about Goku, the one who needs to transform.
Miracles wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:38 pm
In order for one to have god status they must NOT let the Ki seep out. (...) This was stated in the CANON Battle of God's movie, written by Toriyama himself
You are the one mixing things up. This "god ki must not seep out" comes from Toei continuity only. Nothing like that is present in the actual movie.
From BoG movie:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:53 am

Yeah what you just screen capped is not even remotely the same thing as claiming that BOG had the 'prevent ki from seeping out of their bodies' thing that is exclusive to the Super anime.

The manga even uses a similar concept for SSB -> completed SSB, so it's clear that it can't be the case for SSG and SSB that they're keeping their ki trapped in their bodies for God power.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am

Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:25 am
From BoG movie:
And what does that have to do with "must not let Ki leak"? :eh:

In that moment, Beerus is just saying Goku didn't become a god. It has nothing to do with anything here. Again, this whole "ki must not leak" is something that popped up and only exists in Toei continuity.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:48 pm

Saiga wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:53 am
Yeah what you just screen capped is not even remotely the same thing as claiming that BOG had the 'prevent ki from seeping out of their bodies' thing that is exclusive to the Super anime.

The manga even uses a similar concept for SSB -> completed SSB, so it's clear that it can't be the case for SSG and SSB that they're keeping their ki trapped in their bodies for God power.
Grimlock wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:25 am
From BoG movie:
And what does that have to do with "must not let Ki leak"? :eh:

In that moment, Beerus is just saying Goku didn't become a god. It has nothing to do with anything here. Again, this whole "ki must not leak" is something that popped up and only exists in Toei continuity.
Beerus clearly said battle power that is "SUPERFICIAL" is not godly. All Goku did was RAISE his battle power just like he does in SSJ. That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:04 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:48 pm
Saiga wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:53 am
Yeah what you just screen capped is not even remotely the same thing as claiming that BOG had the 'prevent ki from seeping out of their bodies' thing that is exclusive to the Super anime.

The manga even uses a similar concept for SSB -> completed SSB, so it's clear that it can't be the case for SSG and SSB that they're keeping their ki trapped in their bodies for God power.
Grimlock wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:25 am
From BoG movie:
And what does that have to do with "must not let Ki leak"? :eh:

In that moment, Beerus is just saying Goku didn't become a god. It has nothing to do with anything here. Again, this whole "ki must not leak" is something that popped up and only exists in Toei continuity.
Beerus clearly said battle power that is "SUPERFICIAL" is not godly. All Goku did was RAISE his battle power just like he does in SSJ. That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.
None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:08 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:04 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:48 pm
Saiga wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:53 am
Yeah what you just screen capped is not even remotely the same thing as claiming that BOG had the 'prevent ki from seeping out of their bodies' thing that is exclusive to the Super anime.

The manga even uses a similar concept for SSB -> completed SSB, so it's clear that it can't be the case for SSG and SSB that they're keeping their ki trapped in their bodies for God power.
Grimlock wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:23 am


And what does that have to do with "must not let Ki leak"? :eh:

In that moment, Beerus is just saying Goku didn't become a god. It has nothing to do with anything here. Again, this whole "ki must not leak" is something that popped up and only exists in Toei continuity.
Beerus clearly said battle power that is "SUPERFICIAL" is not godly. All Goku did was RAISE his battle power just like he does in SSJ. That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.
None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.
Well we know for a fact that Blue consumes tons of energy. We don't know if red consumes more energy than SSJ3.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:27 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:08 pm
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:04 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:48 pm



Beerus clearly said battle power that is "SUPERFICIAL" is not godly. All Goku did was RAISE his battle power just like he does in SSJ. That means on the surface, but when Goku went god they couldn't sense his ki cause it was not seeping out. Showing that SSJ and the god forms are not the same.
None of this "Is SSJ Forms Connected to God" debate really matters anyway if my Hypothesis from before has any weight to it. Remember, if Goku's body was just jumping to SSJ3 because it took less energy to stay in, then the next logical step would be to determine whether or not SSJ God consumes more energy than SSJ3.
Well we know for a fact that Blue consumes tons of energy. We don't know if red consumes more energy than SSJ3.
There is evidence for both sides. For example in the Broly movie, Goku opted to fight broly in SSJ God instead of SSJ3. This however can be chalked up to him requiring that much power to deal with him, as he also skipped over SSJ2. In the Anime's tournament of power we see Goku in his fight with Caulifla and Kale we see Goku Burst into SSJ3 for a short moment before going back to super saiyan 2, but goes into God form later when he had gotten more energy. This is the anime continuity though, so we can't know for sure.

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