"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:43 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am

What you posted officially states that Dragon Ball Super, Toriyama's new story, is the canonical sequel to Dragon Ball, which it is. Your headcanon is that Toyotaro's interpretation of the story is above all in terms of continuity, which is solely a matter of opinion.
Excuse me?

This timeline is specific to the manga, because it outlines the manga with pictures and panels from the manga only. It does not involve the anime production of DBS.

DBS manga by Toyotarou with Akira Toriyama credited as the original author is the sequel to Toriyama's original manga. Interpretation of this or that is fan guesswork at best and has absolutely nothing to do with what is considered canonical officially.

GT is official but not considered the canonical or part of the main continuity. It is for all intents and purposes a sequel to the DBZ anime and films since it was produced by Toei. Shueisha has never labeled GT the same way it has done for the DBS manga.

None of the fans get to decide what is considered canonical. Shueisha and Toriyama do. And if Toriyama is editing and approving Toyotarou's storyboards, and if Shueisha is putting out promotional timelines like this using specific terminology like canonical, then nothing is considered filler and everything that transpires in the manga is exactly what transpires in the main continuity.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:47 pm

infermon wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:37 am
Volume 11 inside cover. I appreciate this AU Toyotaro has constructed wherein Goku and Jaco own competing burger restaurants but go to each other's anyway.
Wait shoot has it already been released?! I thought it was supposed to be 12/5.

Gonna get my hands on a copy soon then. That inside cover looks really nice, I'm always digging that extra small treat from the tankobons.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:08 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:43 pm
mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am

What you posted officially states that Dragon Ball Super, Toriyama's new story, is the canonical sequel to Dragon Ball, which it is. Your headcanon is that Toyotaro's interpretation of the story is above all in terms of continuity, which is solely a matter of opinion.
Excuse me?

This timeline is specific to the manga, because it outlines the manga with pictures and panels from the manga only. It does not involve the anime production of DBS.

DBS manga by Toyotarou with Akira Toriyama credited as the original author is the sequel to Toriyama's original manga. Interpretation of this or that is fan guesswork at best and has absolutely nothing to do with what is considered canonical officially.

GT is official but not considered the canonical or part of the main continuity. It is for all intents and purposes a sequel to the DBZ anime and films since it was produced by Toei. Shueisha has never labeled GT the same way it has done for the DBS manga.

None of the fans get to decide what is considered canonical. Shueisha and Toriyama do. And if Toriyama is editing and approving Toyotarou's storyboards, and if Shueisha is putting out promotional timelines like this using specific terminology like canonical, then nothing is considered filler and everything that transpires in the manga is exactly what transpires in the main continuity.
You're excused.

The stand says
"Dragon Ball Super. A "super" adventure from original creator Akira Toriyama. The canonical sequel to Dragon Ball that continues the story after the Majin Boo arc."
It starts by celebrating Dragon Ball Super, the new canonical sequel to Dragon Ball and the original creator's return. Then they talk about the manga and it's credits. The panel was to advertise the manga AND the new Dragon Ball title. Shueisha is calling Dragon Ball Super the canonical sequel. Not specifically the medium (manga/anime) but the original author's new story.

But you can interpret it however you want. Chit chat over.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:34 pm

Even if I prefer the anime and consider it to have prevalance over the manga due to its popularity, representation in videogames and merchandise, I would be okay if they outright said that, at least so far, the manga’s version of Super is the actual canonical one. But this isn’t the case and that Shueisha poster above doesn’t say it. As already pointed out, it just labels SUPER as canonical.

Now one may say Toriyama would have an easier time remembering the manga and if he ever needs to remember the story of Super so far, then it would be faster for him to just re-read Toyotaro’s manga.
Thus if he based his future stories on the manga-exclusive events it would make the manga the more canonical product.

But it doesn’t seem like that’s how Toriyama is handling things. Instead I believe he actually just reads his outlines again if he has to come up with a new story and wants it to connect to other elements introduced in Super.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:13 pm

Cipher wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:47 am
The full first response more specifically says that Toyotaro was surprised in early story meetings by the concepts Toriyama offered (as only the original series author could), and that he feels the arc moved forward with mutual confidence that it would make for a good story.

It doesn't (firmly) attribute the seed of the overall arc to either party.
That's the point of working together [collaboration]. As Toyotaro stated early on how he and Toriyama are doing this together. Anything else is assumption.

Thanks for the clarification.
mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:08 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:43 pm
mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am

What you posted officially states that Dragon Ball Super, Toriyama's new story, is the canonical sequel to Dragon Ball, which it is. Your headcanon is that Toyotaro's interpretation of the story is above all in terms of continuity, which is solely a matter of opinion.
Excuse me?

This timeline is specific to the manga, because it outlines the manga with pictures and panels from the manga only. It does not involve the anime production of DBS.

DBS manga by Toyotarou with Akira Toriyama credited as the original author is the sequel to Toriyama's original manga. Interpretation of this or that is fan guesswork at best and has absolutely nothing to do with what is considered canonical officially.

GT is official but not considered the canonical or part of the main continuity. It is for all intents and purposes a sequel to the DBZ anime and films since it was produced by Toei. Shueisha has never labeled GT the same way it has done for the DBS manga.

None of the fans get to decide what is considered canonical. Shueisha and Toriyama do. And if Toriyama is editing and approving Toyotarou's storyboards, and if Shueisha is putting out promotional timelines like this using specific terminology like canonical, then nothing is considered filler and everything that transpires in the manga is exactly what transpires in the main continuity.
You're excused.

The stand says
"Dragon Ball Super. A "super" adventure from original creator Akira Toriyama. The canonical sequel to Dragon Ball that continues the story after the Majin Boo arc."
It starts by celebrating Dragon Ball Super, the new canonical sequel to Dragon Ball and the original creator's return. Then they talk about the manga and it's credits. The panel was to advertise the manga AND the new Dragon Ball title. Shueisha is calling Dragon Ball Super the canonical sequel. Not specifically the medium (manga/anime) but the original author's new story.

But you can interpret it however you want. Chit chat over.
It really isn't chit for chat. People like to turn reality into such an ordeal but you are only choosing the statement while sidestepping the images. The statement and pictures go together.Which constitutes the very important part, a timeline, which solely has the DBS manga as the "canonical sequel" to Toriyama's DB manga, leading up to Broly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:22 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:08 pm
You're excused.

The stand says
"Dragon Ball Super. A "super" adventure from original creator Akira Toriyama. The canonical sequel to Dragon Ball that continues the story after the Majin Boo arc."
It starts by celebrating Dragon Ball Super, the new canonical sequel to Dragon Ball and the original creator's return. Then they talk about the manga and it's credits. The panel was to advertise the manga AND the new Dragon Ball title. Shueisha is calling Dragon Ball Super the canonical sequel. Not specifically the medium (manga/anime) but the original author's new story.

But you can interpret it however you want. Chit chat over.
Let me finish that for you since you so conveniently left it out:
Akira Toriyama created the story and character designs while the manga is drawn by Toyotarou. It is currently serialized in V-Jump.


There is literally no trace of the anime in the information/timeline panel. It is a history of the manga only.

It uses only scenes and panels directly from the manga, and even skips the Resurrection F arc.
It says it is the manga drawn by Toyotarou. That literally narrows down the choices to only one medium.

Image

You have to deliberately be feigning ignorance/idiocy to miss the context and narrative of this panel.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:04 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:13 pm
It really isn't chit for chat. People like to turn reality into such an ordeal but you are only choosing the statement while sidestepping the images. The statement and pictures go together.Which constitutes the very important part, a timeline, which solely has the DBS manga as the "canonical sequel" to Toriyama's DB manga, leading up to Broly.
This argument is known as "selective reading." They leave out only the convenient parts that suit their headcanon and miss the overall context/big picture as a whole.

And looking at the timeline, it is painfully clear that this is a promotion for the manga only. All the images, from DB to DBS, are drawn by either Toriyama or Toyotarou only. No promotional artwork by Toei animators at all. Hell, it even has Toyotarou's pen picture right next to the caption!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:56 am

For anyone that's interested, this volume's spine character is Dyspo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:57 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:04 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:13 pm
It really isn't chit for chat. People like to turn reality into such an ordeal but you are only choosing the statement while sidestepping the images. The statement and pictures go together.Which constitutes the very important part, a timeline, which solely has the DBS manga as the "canonical sequel" to Toriyama's DB manga, leading up to Broly.
This argument is known as "selective reading." They leave out only the convenient parts that suit their headcanon and miss the overall context/big picture as a whole.

And looking at the timeline, it is painfully clear that this is a promotion for the manga only. All the images, from DB to DBS, are drawn by either Toriyama or Toyotarou only. No promotional artwork by Toei animators at all. Hell, it even has Toyotarou's pen picture right next to the caption!
It's always something. First, the mural wasn't valid cause it was in English. Now it's in Japanese but the canonical appliance is for DBS in general? Even though the sequel to Toriyama's original DB is exclusive DBS manga with NO TOEI shown [as you said]. You'd think people would relent and accept the facts from Shueisha.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PremiumSalt » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:24 am

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:22 pm
It uses only scenes and panels directly from the manga, and even skips the Resurrection F arc.
Woah, woah. Hold up. So I guess now we're literally decreeing a movie that Toriyama wrote non canon, because it was left out of the all mighty, can do no wrong mural???

Or, maybe, you all are taking the mural a bit too literally.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:39 am

Nozawa and Horikawa will be doing a live reading of a not-yet-animated scene from the DBS manga at Jump Festa.

Iyoku, head of the Dragon Ball Room, will be leading the panel. He was the liaison between Toriyama and the DBS Broly team during the production of the film. I predict he will be delivering a statement from Toriyama.

Things are looking good regarding the possibility of this arc getting animated and us finding out about it in 2 weeks...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:13 pm

PremiumSalt wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:24 am
So I guess now we're literally decreeing a movie that Toriyama wrote non canon, because it was left out of the all mighty, can do no wrong mural???
What's the surprise? People already do that with the retellings of Movie 14 and Movie 15, even though there's no information Toriyama was involved with the retellings at all. Guess Toei and Toyotaro are above Toriyama now.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:00 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:13 pm
PremiumSalt wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:24 am
So I guess now we're literally decreeing a movie that Toriyama wrote non canon, because it was left out of the all mighty, can do no wrong mural???
What's the surprise? People already do that with the retellings of Movie 14 and Movie 15, even though there's no information Toriyama was involved with the retellings at all. Guess Toei and Toyotaro are above Toriyama now.
Considering it was Toriyama’s idea to include the retellings, and he added up the Namekian Book of Legends and the universal shockwaves to BoG (and probably other stuff we don’t know of) I can understand people who feel like the retellings could be the new canonical version of the movies.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:15 pm

I can't. Just because it was Toriyama's idea to make retellings doesn't mean whatever Toei and Toyotaro did represent the way things really are or the way Toriyama considers things. The Namekuseijin book was probably a trivial thing meant to be in the movie, but since it was scrapped, Toei decided to use it in its version. That hardly means anything in the grand scheme.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:56 pm

People...To exclude Toriyama's movies, something written by the creator, is defeating the purpose of canon [authority].
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yasai9001 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:56 pm
People...To exclude Toriyama's movies, something written by the creator, is defeating the purpose of canon [authority].
Exactly. It's just common sense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:19 am

Personally I'd consider the manga canon just because it doesn't explicitly include any non-canon stuff or contradict itself through filler, and generally sticks closer to what we know to be the original draft.

Like, one minor plot point in Broly is that Frieza has no clue what fusion is, yet DBS anime filler shows he does, and has seen Gotenks. It's a contradiction from having writers that probably weren't coordinating with Toriyama with that scene.

The anime has Trunks using a new form that isn't named in-series to very BRIEFLY fight on-par with Zamasu and Black, before somehow using and creating a spirit bomb (as the sword is explicitly referred to as a genki-dama sword in production material) to fight and "defeat" fused zamasu, whereas the original draft and the manga simply have Goku fight his fused counterpart.

The anime gives Toppo a "God of Destruction" transformation that comes out of nowhere, looks different from every other GoD, further suggests God of Destruction ki as its own thing, and is given no real explanation (in fact the requirement that Toppo toss away his morals to use the form actively contradicts the backstories we're given for Belmod and Arak that suggest morality is a good trait for GoDs). The manga makes it pretty explicit what was suggested in the original Battle of Gods, that godly ki is just godly ki, and as a GoD trainee Toppo can simply access it whenever (as well as Goku being able to use GoD techniques while SSB). It's something that's going to feel very much like a contradiction if treated as canon because no other God of Destruction is ever going to refer to the form or use it because it only exists for Toppo to use and increase tension in the anime, and yet it gives weird implications for how godly stuff works that'll never be touched upon in this manner again.

The latter example I gave I found particularly egregious in the anime sorta "going its own way" outside of what Toriyama would likely intend.

Again, we're at a point where Toyotaro isn't just following Toriyama's draft but actually creating and designing the main villain of the arc. Dragon Ball Super is at a point where it's slowly becoming his story, at least somewhat. If the anime comes back, it's going to adapt this arc, and the main villain of the arc is still going to have been created and written by Toyotaro. Any idea that the manga isn't canon at this point feels very much like wishful thinking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:46 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:19 am
Personally I'd consider the manga canon just because it doesn't explicitly include any non-canon stuff or contradict itself through filler, and generally sticks closer to what we know to be the original draft.

Like, one minor plot point in Broly is that Frieza has no clue what fusion is, yet DBS anime filler shows he does, and has seen Gotenks. It's a contradiction from having writers that probably weren't coordinating with Toriyama with that scene.
I would say it's the other way around. Freeza seeing/knowing about Gotenks/fusion predates Dragon Ball Super Broly for Dende knows how long. I don't think anyone at Toei would know that one day in the future, Toriyama would make a point of establishing that notion through Gogeta and Freeza's dialogue in the movie. Heck, I'm not even sure Toriyama knew back then that he would do that even if he was involved with the retellings. One could say that Freeza not knowing about fusion in the movie was added "intentionally", just to further contribute to the evidence of the existence of three different continuities, and that the movies one is still as legit (or more, if we consider Toriyama is involved in them) as Toei's and Toyotaro's.

Anyway, it's not like Toyotaro is somehow immune to stuff only seen in Toei. Let us not forget that in his continuity, kid Vegeta had bangs, just like in the anime. Despite kid Vegeta not sporting them in Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Minus that were released just a couple of years prior to the chapter. It's very explicit, if you ask me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:23 am

Lol it's pretty laughable people still considering the manga canon it skipped the Broly story skipped the ResF story and not to mention it's serialised in the minor magazine and monthly and the manga isn't even considered by the marketing department as the main product, that is much more damning than some mural.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:30 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:46 am
Anyway, it's not like Toyotaro is somehow immune to stuff only seen in Toei. Let us not forget that in his continuity, kid Vegeta had bangs, just like in the anime. Despite kid Vegeta not sporting them in Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Minus that were released just a couple of years prior to the chapter. It's very explicit, if you ask me.
I'm not saying that exactly, but Vegeta's hairstyle changing at one is certainly a less egregious example compared to anything I pointed out.

Likewise, the Frieza thing with Gotenks effectively means that whole scene in the Res F arc canonically didn't take place. Gregory's whole existence in Super's anime (along with his complaining about his death in the cell saga) also contradicts his complete lack of existence and placement during those events in the manga.

Plus yknow, all the other stuff I pointed out in the post up there and the stuff about Toyotaro sticking closer to the original draft (by what's clearly miles)
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:23 am
Lol it's pretty laughable people still considering the manga canon it skipped the Broly story skipped the ResF story and not to mention it's serialised in the minor magazine and monthly and the manga isn't even considered by the marketing department as the main product, that is much more damning than some mural.
One Piece Strong World is a movie canon to the manga, yet it's not covered in One Piece's manga. I don't get why people use that of all things as an argument.

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