"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

And then people said he couldn't be an angel because of the color of his skin and his hair. The name was not suggestive enough to make Merus Angel's theory strong until a few chapters ago, when Toyotaro gave very clear evidence that this was true.

Merus is an angel in training, he was in danger of being erased because he was about to break the law of angels. I don't know how he is this "perfect being" that you said

why wasn't it? one thing is that the design may not be important as beerus and dyspo ... but the name of alcoholic beverage was already quite revealing not even bothered to hide it ...

he was never defeated ... or pretends to be injured to mislead the viewer
made no mistake regarding strategy
did not show a power limit
he know the ultra instinct

Of course, this can change later if his actions somehow cause some kind of "bad" in some direct or indirect way.

Dude shut up and quit pestering Rakurai unlike you he's always backed up his claims with factual evidence to support what he's arguing (Such as the Goku Black being Zamasu revelation)

He was the one who quoted me not to my lol I have already shown while he has taken things out of context
for that I would have to prove something that really has not done sincerely and I have instead shown that the clues with merus are seriously obvious .... so no .. nobody forces you to read me so continue .. I will not stop commenting just because you say so

and ....
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/a ... hapter_43/
https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/wh ... s.1176812/

and if you cannot debate with respect then do not do it .. basic rules to be taken a comment in seriously

Merus has been above everyone since the beginning of the arc, simply because he is an angel. That's why Vegeta noticed that he was different from the others, and Goku too after a while. That doesn't classify him as a Gary Stu, there's a reason for that. He just couldn't use his angel powers (and yet he was much stronger than everyone else, but he couldn't defeat Moro)

And yet, he was about to break the law of angels, because he is still in training, he went to U7 to learn about the world, he is not perfect.

And about the links you posted, the second just shows that Merus's theory of being an angel only got stronger (or was actually taken seriously) after his fight against SSJ3 Goku. Toyotaro was giving evidence that Merus was different from the beginning of the arc (as Batistabus said). Defeating Goku and Vegeta easily, his showing in the train stopping the bad guys, being able to hold Moro using human weapons. But most people blamed Toyotaro or his "lazy writing" or said it was inconsistent rather than really realizing what was going on.

So to say that Merus being an angel was obvious from the beginning is not true. I would say the mystery about Goku Black was solved much faster than this

I hope Toyotaro builds off of Vegeta's speech about being solo from the TOP.
Vegeta pretty much declared UI as a waste on him and he would get stronger his own way.

Well, Vegeta is also training to better control his spirit and his mind, which are also requirements to activate Ultra Instinct. Now, Idk where Toyo is going with this, but Vegeta getting UI ain’t far fetched, especially if the technique itself is the epitome of power. Vegeta would be a lesser fighter in comparison to Goku if he ends up not getting it. Unless Vegeta can rival or surpass Ultra Instinct without the need of actually getting it. Which I could see happening

I agree. The principles of Vegeta's Yardrat training are similar to UI's.
It wouldn't be outlandish to say that Vegeta comes upon it involuntary.

Edit: However, I just forgot, that even if Vegeta is learning to control his spirit [ki] it does not exactly translate to him learning UI.
1) UI is all about mastering the emotions of the mind. It's not about raising/controlling battle power [Ki/spirit].
2) Even if Vegeta was mastering his mind in the same way UI does, it wouldn't allow him to gain UI.For the fact that Vegeta has to control his emotions in the face of Shock!!!

The training Goku and Vegeta are doing now are different.
So I believe Vegeta will not gain UI with this training based on what the story has given us.

I would not say that this training takes Vegeta directly to the UI. But at least it makes it easier for him to eventually achieve this form at some point. Being able to balance body and spirit is already a big step compared to the previous Vegeta who was totally out of sync and thought long before attacking, something Whis said was a weakness and what made his style not suitable for UI

[Miracles]

Yes, Merus was about to use all his power because Goku would use it too, I wouldn't say Goku forced him into it, nor does that mean he is close to Merus level. Goku definitely got stronger regardless of UI, but I don't think it's at this level

I actually think that's what we're supposed to take away from it. The scene doesn't make sense if we aren't to assume Goku has become Merus' equal, or at least close to the same power. There's no other reason for him to go all out.

The same chapter also establishes that Merus is still in training himself, so it makes sense that he isn't as powerful as Whis and the other angels.

Yes, but Merus using all his power is something that was established since the beginning of the training, when Goku couldn't even activate the UI on his own. In fact, he intended to do just that to force Goku to awaken the transformation again. He basically used all his power with respect to Goku who would also use everything he learned in training

Narration has made it known that Merus wasn't using his angel powers at all. Until the point Goku was going to use UI.
So obviously there was a dramatic change of events for Merus, to go full power.

I would not say that this training takes Vegeta directly to the UI. But at least it makes it easier for him to eventually achieve this form at some point. Being able to balance body and spirit is already a big step compared to the previous Vegeta who was totally out of sync and thought long before attacking, something Whis said was a weakness and what made his style not suitable for UI

Yeah. I just don't think the Yardrat training is like the one Goku is having with Merus.
One is learning to grow/control battle power [Ki/spirit] The other is learning to control emotions of the mind in the face of shock!

[funrush]

Overall really solid chapter. I liked the stuff with Whis and Merus, the Vegeta training stuff is great too. I wonder if the gator guy is related to Zarbon, they both have a forehead necklace thing too.

[Tai Lung]

Merus has been above everyone since the beginning of the arc, simply because he is an angel. That's why Vegeta noticed that he was different from the others, and Goku too after a while. That doesn't classify him as a Gary Stu, there's a reason for that. He just couldn't use his angel powers (and yet he was much stronger than everyone else, but he couldn't defeat Moro)

And yet, he was about to break the law of angels, because he is still in training, he went to U7 to learn about the world, he is not perfect.

And about the links you posted, the second just shows that Merus's theory of being an angel only got stronger (or was actually taken seriously) after his fight against SSJ3 Goku. Toyotaro was giving evidence that Merus was different from the beginning of the arc (as Batistabus said). Defeating Goku and Vegeta easily, his showing in the train stopping the bad guys, being able to hold Moro using human weapons. But most people blamed Toyotaro or his "lazy writing" or said it was inconsistent rather than really realizing what was going on.

So to say that Merus being an angel was obvious from the beginning is not true. I would say the mystery about Goku Black was solved much faster than this

According to that, I suppose he has a bit of autonomy but it does not mean that in actions in general it was too perfect, in addition to the fact that he will not be punished for it, he got his way

the anime is weekly and the monthly manga

ok 11 months before ..... merus is an angel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gnMUnAJlnk

[Rakurai]

I admit I can come off as a little provocative sometimes when I see some extremely ridiculous claims being taken seriously by the ppl who hold those views. I know ppl mean good when trynna defend someone, and it doesn't go unappreciated, but I agree with VegettoEX, let's try to keep it civil and I'll do my best as well. Ppl who read this this thread will know how to judge between sound, clear arguments and weak, fragile arguments.

Okay now I know you're just trolling.

if you want to think it with everyone who disagrees with you, ok
you save me the work having to answer you

you would be denying that there were people who genuinely believed it ... now they will tell you no but there is even a topic in the forum about it

false .... and the link you have shown is only a lot of people complaining about gohan, others who believe that gowasu is black.
Gokublack copies technique and forms, or that it was from another universe

only 1 mentions that possibility and he mentions that he is not sure .... and again those possibilities were discarded when zamasu appeared next to black because nobody could guess the entire process of the zamasu plan

fake again whis said his energy was similar however goku denied this after having his fight with him
this theory was presented until before they reach namek
The character's design, vegeta suspected of him, that made a lot of impossible feats for someone in a universe with such a low mortality level and that Merus is also the name of a wine brand pff until the dog guesses it

Roshi fighting with Jiren is stupid that nobody takes seriously lol

I call it as I see them. And when somebody tells me that the "mystery" of Goku Black was done better than the mystery of Merus, anybody who's not biased, who's been around for that long and kept up until now, will tell you that those are the words of a troll. Especially when the very same somebody tells me that the Goten Black theory was an actual contending theory and not just fan trolling.

VegettoEX already explained to you the traditional naming convention of Merus' name. Merus is not a type of alcohol.

I wasn't talking about his battle with Jiren, you just committed a blatant strawman. Roshi using the principles of UI is a fact in the manga whether ppl like it or not.

I would say Merus being an Angel was in the same realm as Goku Black being Goten, in other words it wasn't taken seriously at all and hardly anybody paid attention to it until it happened. Which goes to show how well Toyotarou diverted the attention and narrative away from the Merus being an Angel theory until he made it blatantly clear.

[Tai Lung]

I admit I can come off as a little provocative sometimes when I see some extremely ridiculous claims being taken seriously by the ppl who hold those views. I know ppl mean good when trynna defend someone, and it doesn't go unappreciated, but I agree with VegettoEX, let's try to keep it civil and I'll do my best as well. Ppl who read this this thread will know how to judge between sound, clear arguments and weak, fragile arguments.

Okay now I know you're just trolling.

if you want to think it with everyone who disagrees with you, ok
you save me the work having to answer you

you would be denying that there were people who genuinely believed it ... now they will tell you no but there is even a topic in the forum about it

false .... and the link you have shown is only a lot of people complaining about gohan, others who believe that gowasu is black.
Gokublack copies technique and forms, or that it was from another universe

only 1 mentions that possibility and he mentions that he is not sure .... and again those possibilities were discarded when zamasu appeared next to black because nobody could guess the entire process of the zamasu plan

fake again whis said his energy was similar however goku denied this after having his fight with him
this theory was presented until before they reach namek
The character's design, vegeta suspected of him, that made a lot of impossible feats for someone in a universe with such a low mortality level and that Merus is also the name of a wine brand pff until the dog guesses it

Roshi fighting with Jiren is stupid that nobody takes seriously lol

I call it as I see them. And when somebody tells me that the "mystery" of Goku Black was done better than the mystery of Merus, anybody who's not biased, who's been around for that long and kept up until now, will tell you that those are the words of a troll. Especially when the very same somebody tells me that the Goten Black theory was an actual contending theory and not just fan trolling.

VegettoEX already explained to you the traditional naming convention of Merus' name. Merus is not a type of alcohol.

I wasn't talking about his battle with Jiren, you just committed a blatant strawman. Roshi using the principles of UI is a fact in the manga whether ppl like it or not.

I would say Merus being an Angel was in the same realm as Goku Black being Goten, in other words it wasn't taken seriously at all and hardly anybody paid attention to it until it happened. Which goes to show how well Toyotarou diverted the attention and narrative away from the Merus being an Angel theory until he made it blatantly clear.

because the mystery of goku black in general had false clues in even mention kibito in the manga and in the anime goku denies this claiming that the ki was different then ... whis and goku mention the possibility of a clone

Merus' mistery is linear because there is nothing that particularly denies it ... in fact it becomes more obvious

Okay ... but I wouldn't be so sure the author planned a pun with the names as pan can refer to food as a demon

yeah ...I would still say that it is absurd for a human to know and use that principle however it still would not make sense for someone in the galactic patrol who uses weapons to be able to understand something like that so I still see it out sense

As posting in the previous video, this theory that proved to be true was published 11 months ago if nobody took it so seriously, however, some came to the conclusion with simple clues although they were not popular but neither were those of the black arc they that approached the truth

[Sora Saiyan]

Re: Goku black vs Merus mystery.
Didn't people realise who Goku Black actually was really early? Of I remember right it was figure out quite quickly upon seeing Zamasu. The means of how he attained Gokus body was the biggest mystery. I thought the Goten thing was before we had seen Zamasu. And that always seemed to unrealistic anyway.

Merus mystery was kept under wraps much longer, but then when it was teased people realised pretty quickly what was up. It was around August people started to click. For the manga to reveal it like it was still a mystery is surprising tbh, they should've told us in September or October really. This website can be viewed so we can see results from 6 months ago (my choice out of the options) on the first page, and looking back through that stuff Merus being an angel wasn't really mentioned at all with any conviction until around August. Before that, time skip was mentioned more commonly due to Vegeta not being able to track him, well that or Toyo being inconsistent. God, I remember the hate well when Merus was doing his thing before people started to click. The angel thing was hard to buy for people because we had never seen an angel who wasn't neutral, and his skin colour was off too, then the fact he was involved in the fights but had to rely on Goku and Vegeta seemed odd. Everything he was showing was countering the points of him being an Angel.
Don't get me wrong the angel thing was brought up, but also shot down quickly by fans due to other things not matching up with what we knew.

Honestly he's been a great thing, we can finally see more about the angels now, and we know why he wasn't acting the way an angel should now.

[Rakurai]

As posting in the previous video, this theory that proved to be true was published 11 months ago if nobody took it so seriously, however, some came to the conclusion with simple clues although they were not popular but neither were those of the black arc they that approached the truth

Black being Zamasu in Goku's body was the main contending theory at the time online and there was strong if not obvious evidence in the show to support it. On the other hand, Merus being an Angel wasn't since many points didn't line up.

[DiscountDabi]

I'm just gonna add something that I haven't seen anyone in this thread talking about much. You guys think the Daikaioshin is gonna come back for the final fight. I know Buu fell back asleep after Moro and his Goons beat the crap out of him, but this isn't like his Hibernation since he woke up from the hibernation that started before the TOP at the beginning of the arc. And 2 months have passed since then so he should really be awake by now.

[Koitsukai]

Wishing you all a happy farewell since I'll probably never be able to converse with any of you again. It's been a fun ride, and I hope you have a great holiday!

Hey, Marlowe! I was wondering what happened to you! I miss the discussions my man.
Hey, can we let Marlowe post here VegettoEX? Please privately address his pleas in correspondence to Marlowe.

It would be much appreciated.

I back this up too. I hope they can get his old account back.

I hope Toyotaro builds off of Vegeta's speech about being solo from the TOP.
Vegeta pretty much declared UI as a waste on him and he would get stronger his own way.

Well, Vegeta is also training to better control his spirit and his mind, which are also requirements to activate Ultra Instinct. Now, Idk where Toyo is going with this, but Vegeta getting UI ain’t far fetched, especially if the technique itself is the epitome of power. Vegeta would be a lesser fighter in comparison to Goku if he ends up not getting it. Unless Vegeta can rival or surpass Ultra Instinct without the need of actually getting it. Which I could see happening

I agree. The principles of Vegeta's Yardrat training are similar to UI's.
It wouldn't be outlandish to say that Vegeta comes upon it involuntary.

Edit: However, I just forgot, that even if Vegeta is learning to control his spirit [ki] it does not exactly translate to him learning UI.
1) UI is all about mastering the emotions of the mind. It's not about raising/controlling battle power [Ki/spirit].
2) Even if Vegeta was mastering his mind in the same way UI does, it wouldn't allow him to gain UI.For the fact that Vegeta has to control his emotions in the face of Shock!!!

The training Goku and Vegeta are doing now are different.
So I believe Vegeta will not gain UI with this training based on what the story has given us.

To Sherlock's fortune, I too believe Vegeta will not be getting UI. Even by the anime standards, becoming way stronger or controlling that kind of power doesn't mean unlocking UI, Jiren didn't have it.
Perhaps Vegeta will go down the route of being a Jiren-like character after this massive boost. If Goku really is having UI, again, then Vegeta would need something similar to remain relevant in an arc that seems to be treating them equally.

Also, this spirit control thing can help "explain" Jiren. Meditation + having that kind of power under control might be some of the perks of spirit control.
Now, if Jiren's spirit and body were not n'sync with each other then may god have mercy on all us.

[Noitsnothim]

Might sound funny but Moro's basically lowering the mortal level in U7 (Remember in the tournament of power Grand Priest said it was too high?) Well now that plot point is being put to good use

[Noitsnothim]

Wishing you all a happy farewell since I'll probably never be able to converse with any of you again. It's been a fun ride, and I hope you have a great holiday!

Hey, Marlowe! I was wondering what happened to you! I miss the discussions my man.
Hey, can we let Marlowe post here VegettoEX? Please privately address his pleas in correspondence to Marlowe.

It would be much appreciated.

I back this up too. I hope they can get his old account back.

Well, Vegeta is also training to better control his spirit and his mind, which are also requirements to activate Ultra Instinct. Now, Idk where Toyo is going with this, but Vegeta getting UI ain’t far fetched, especially if the technique itself is the epitome of power. Vegeta would be a lesser fighter in comparison to Goku if he ends up not getting it. Unless Vegeta can rival or surpass Ultra Instinct without the need of actually getting it. Which I could see happening

I agree. The principles of Vegeta's Yardrat training are similar to UI's.
It wouldn't be outlandish to say that Vegeta comes upon it involuntary.

Edit: However, I just forgot, that even if Vegeta is learning to control his spirit [ki] it does not exactly translate to him learning UI.
1) UI is all about mastering the emotions of the mind. It's not about raising/controlling battle power [Ki/spirit].
2) Even if Vegeta was mastering his mind in the same way UI does, it wouldn't allow him to gain UI.For the fact that Vegeta has to control his emotions in the face of Shock!!!

The training Goku and Vegeta are doing now are different.
So I believe Vegeta will not gain UI with this training based on what the story has given us.

To Sherlock's fortune, I too believe Vegeta will not be getting UI. Even by the anime standards, becoming way stronger or controlling that kind of power doesn't mean unlocking UI, Jiren didn't have it.
Perhaps Vegeta will go down the route of being a Jiren-like character after this massive boost. If Goku really is having UI, again, then Vegeta would need something similar to remain relevant in an arc that seems to be treating them equally.

Also, this spirit control thing can help "explain" Jiren. Meditation + having that kind of power under control might be some of the perks of spirit control.
Now, if Jiren's spirit and body were not n'sync with each other then may god have mercy on all us.

I also do not believe Vegeta will get UI it'd be redundant for him to follow in Goku's path once more but with the training he's doing on Yardrat I assume the lining of spirit and body will further boost his new evolution of Super Saiyan Blue to a higher degree maybe even in the same realm of power as UI Sign (Omen) I know Toriyama & Toyo put Vegeta on Yardrat for a good reason that will benefit in the long run of 'Super'

[Tai Lung]

As posting in the previous video, this theory that proved to be true was published 11 months ago if nobody took it so seriously, however, some came to the conclusion with simple clues although they were not popular but neither were those of the black arc they that approached the truth

Black being Zamasu in Goku's body was the main contending theory at the time online and there was strong if not obvious evidence in the show to support it. On the other hand, Merus being an Angel wasn't since many points didn't line up.

one thing is that it can be debated although I honestly never saw someone who came to realize the mystery of zamasu because there was evidence many things did not match and were complicated to decipher by having so many mixed elements
-black in the future of trunks
-the existence of zamasu with black at the same time
-goku was not able to detect malignant ki in zamasu
-the assumption of a clone as a false track by goku and whis
-The weakness and desires of violence of goku black when zamasu is presented as someone different

However, if there are several people who discovered the mystery of Merus on YouTube and in Spanish-speaking forums

with merus it was easier and simpler ...
-Character design
-we show feats for someone impossible to perform ... for someone in universe 7 with a low level of mortality
- nobody ever knew of its existence
- the suspicions of the characters that he hid something
- know the ultra instinct despite belonging to a group that does not use ki peros if weapons

etc etc although it seems to me an interesting debate for now I prefer to continue this on a topic of my own later on

[Sora Saiyan]

one thing is that it can be debated although I honestly never saw someone who came to realize the mystery of zamasu because there was evidence many things did not match and were complicated to decipher by having so many mixed elements
-black in the future of trunks
-the existence of zamasu with black at the same time
-goku was not able to detect malignant ki in zamasu
-the assumption of a clone as a false track by goku and whis
-The weakness and desires of violence of goku black when zamasu is presented as someone different

There's plenty there from episode 53 of Super. Just check any discussion about episode 53 and you're guaranteed to see some people saying that Zamasu is Goku Black, and he took Gokus body from a different timeline. Just checked that myself. Before that it was just a straight up guess because I believe we had only seen Zamasu carrying tea and not doing anything bad in the slightest. So if somebody guessed that before episode 53 they would have no evidence, which means it would just be a total stab in the dark, somebody may get it right, but people can't be taken seriously when there's next to no evidence to support it. The theories around that time just wouldn't be believable with lack of evidence. Don't get me wrong they could definitely guess it because of how important Zamasu appeared to be in that arc in the opening and appearing in the show for pretty much no reason.. but again it would've been a total guess, and have had no supporting evidence at that time.

[OLKv3]

I wish the manga had a creative artist. It's really hurting my enjoyment when each fight is shamelessly ripping off an earlier DB fight. Or taking moments and frames from the anime

[Miracles]

I'm just gonna add something that I haven't seen anyone in this thread talking about much. You guys think the Daikaioshin is gonna come back for the final fight. I know Buu fell back asleep after Moro and his Goons beat the crap out of him, but this isn't like his Hibernation since he woke up from the hibernation that started before the TOP at the beginning of the arc. And 2 months have passed since then so he should really be awake by now.

Yeah. Even if they beat Moro they still have to seal his powers. It would be pointless for him to be locked up in Galactic Prison only able to break out again with his power. However, I can't remember if Goku and Vegeta just decided to take down Moro by force and not by Dai Kai's magic anymore.

[Rakurai]

Yeah. Even if they beat Moro they still have to seal his powers. It would be pointless for him to be locked up in Galactic Prison only able to break out again with his power. However, I can't remember if Goku and Vegeta just decided to take down Moro by force and not by Dai Kai's magic anymore.

That wouldn't solve the issue either as Moro was somehow able to break the seal and regain his powers as well (even though it took like 10 mil years). Who's to say that Moro hasn't figured out how to reverse the seal either? I think if they want to get rid of him for good they need to do something new, like outright kill him (if that's even possible).

[dbgtFO]

I find it funny this nobody did the "using big heavy objects as projectile attacks" better than Zamas(Merged).
Powering them up with ki(and change them into a giant sword or spear or something) is exactly how I wanted Zamas to use his Katchin Blocks, if we had to have them used in the first place.
Ah well.
Also I just knew Vegeta wouldn't teleportation, because that's Goku's move. I am looking forward to seeing what he will learn instead, some kind of ki shield or some way to redirect Moro's ki absorption or something?

[DiscountDabi]

Yeah. Even if they beat Moro they still have to seal his powers. It would be pointless for him to be locked up in Galactic Prison only able to break out again with his power. However, I can't remember if Goku and Vegeta just decided to take down Moro by force and not by Dai Kai's magic anymore.

That wouldn't solve the issue either as Moro was somehow able to break the seal and regain his powers as well (even though it took like 10 mil years). Who's to say that Moro hasn't figured out how to reverse the seal either? I think if they want to get rid of him for good they need to do something new, like outright kill him (if that's even possible).

Well it was implied that Kid Buu’s Death removed the seal since he mentioned that he regained his magic “A few years ago” and it would make the most sense.

[Miracles]

Yeah. Even if they beat Moro they still have to seal his powers. It would be pointless for him to be locked up in Galactic Prison only able to break out again with his power. However, I can't remember if Goku and Vegeta just decided to take down Moro by force and not by Dai Kai's magic anymore.

That wouldn't solve the issue either as Moro was somehow able to break the seal and regain his powers as well (even though it took like 10 mil years). Who's to say that Moro hasn't figured out how to reverse the seal either? I think if they want to get rid of him for good they need to do something new, like outright kill him (if that's even possible).

It's not clear what the reason for Moro regaining his magic, to use the planetary energy tech in order to break out of prison.
Suspicions are that it has something to do with Dai Kai's powers being absorbed by Buu. It's not far fetched for Moro still needing to be sealed. Maybe the Mafubba might come into play since we got the whole Z gang involved now.