"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:33 pm

Zarely wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:27 am
This new arc got off to a mediocre start. It just felt like one of those old 90's DBZ movies but then it's really picked up since around the time Buu fought Moro.

That said the the biggest weak point of this arc at the moment is that Moro is just so lame. He looked awful at the start but now he looks even worse. He's got a generic bad guy personality. His backstory is paper thin and his magic which was the main thing to set him apart just boils down to absorbing energy and growing stronger from it. Basically like Cell on a much bigger level.

He's just an evil wizard from 10 million years ago who are planets and now he's back. Is that it?
There was a potential silver lining in his relationship with Cranberry but that petered out when he casually impaled the poor unsuspecting henchman. Being a consumer of worlds could be more dynamic if Toriyama put a spin on it on like Moro wanting to usurp the current celestial hierarchy for some reason like self-determination of mortals. Not every villain has to be nuanced but Dragon Ball lacks that outside of attempts like Zamasu and Jiren.

Yeah, Moro's repertoire of magical powers is severely lacking. When people remark about how his powers are simply a glorified Android 19/20 escapade, it's telling, I think. Babidi's magic seemed more distinct than Moro's does. To use a popular series like Yu Yu Hakusho, the Sensui 7 were a good example of villains with eccentric abilities. It's not that difficult to construct for a main villain.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:10 pm

I think we should wait and see what Moro truly has till his final battle. So far his main threatening magic has been the center. Rightfully so, since he is in a universe that dominantly depends on H2H backed by energy. However Moro has shown glimpses of mind reading, universal sensing, even clones. I know, it's what we are use to seeing but I'd give him a chance first.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:53 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:10 pm
I think we should wait and see what Moro truly has till his final battle. So far his main threatening magic has been the center. Rightfully so, since he is in a universe that dominantly depends on H2H backed by energy. However Moro has shown glimpses of mind reading, universal sensing, even clones. I know, it's what we are use to seeing but I'd give him a chance first.
I agree, but I also hope it’s still less than his energy absorption cause if it’s better it would undermine the main reason he is dangerous and main reason he counters Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by caire » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:32 am

Zarely wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:27 am
This new arc got off to a mediocre start. It just felt like one of those old 90's DBZ movies but then it's really picked up since around the time Buu fought Moro.

That said the the biggest weak point of this arc at the moment is that Moro is just so lame. He looked awful at the start but now he looks even worse. He's got a generic bad guy personality. His backstory is paper thin and his magic which was the main thing to set him apart just boils down to absorbing energy and growing stronger from it. Basically like Cell on a much bigger level.

He's just an evil wizard from 10 million years ago who are planets and now he's back. Is that it?
To be fair, I think Moro is a villain intended to be more of a 'vehicle' for the story than anything else. Unlike (for example) the Freeza arc, where the villain itself was fascinating in its own way and Freeza's current operations/personality was an area that was explored, with Moro it seems to be that he's there as a deliberately plain villain to facilitate the bigger events happening in the arc. Him having a convenient group of minions that can travel to different parts of the galaxy is basically a plot device used to bring in the Earth fighters.
As others have mentioned, he did have the potential to be a really interesting villain if he'd spared Cranberry, but alas. Overall though, I don't mind him being a plain villain because it's allowed for some fascinating things to happen, and I'm glad the focus is on that rather than Moro himself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:42 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:53 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:10 pm
I think we should wait and see what Moro truly has till his final battle. So far his main threatening magic has been the center. Rightfully so, since he is in a universe that dominantly depends on H2H backed by energy. However Moro has shown glimpses of mind reading, universal sensing, even clones. I know, it's what we are use to seeing but I'd give him a chance first.
I agree, but I also hope it’s still less than his energy absorption cause if it’s better it would undermine the main reason he is dangerous and main reason he counters Goku and Vegeta.
Right. The story has made it clear, energy absorption is the most powerful ability Moro has. Rightfully so, the DB universe runs off Ki.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:34 pm

Moro just needs expanding more. He has no real ties to anything in the series except for Grand Supreme Kai losing his God power which we didn't even know about before it was mentioned.

His magic doesn't even seem like magic at all.

Most the villains in Dragon Ball are pretty thin but are still good characters anyway, they have a charm to them I suppose. Broly didn't have much to him but he's popular and well liked now and so is Jiren.

Moro ain't got the personality of Frieza or Buu, he ain't got an interesting or mysterious background like Cell or Goku Black and he hasn't got that strong powerful badass vibe like Jiren or Broly.

He's just plain and boring like King Piccolo or the other movie villains like Bojack.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:48 pm

it seems that they are preparing vegeta for something big and I think it is the first time that emphasis is placed on it. I would like they to give it the long-awaited victory and not just a consolation prize :think:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:03 pm

Moro is still a mystery. He has been steadily revealing himself/plans in increments. We learn about his backstory, being a sworn enemy of Dai Kai and the Galactic Patrol. Giving him connection to the DB world.

From there Moro's mission is to get his magic back. Which took most of Dai Kai's god ki to seal. We then find out this affects kid buu, giving him god ki. Lending Kakarot more justification as to why Uubb is so special to him at the end of Dragonball.

Then Moro lets out prison goons from the galactic patrol with the DB's. In order to help him pillage the universe for energy.
Which he says is just another step to his true goal.

Moro needs a chance people. He needs more panel time to see more of his personality, power and endgame.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:13 am

I have recently re-read the entire Super’s manga, and I wanted to share a quick opinion while it’s fresh in my mind.

First of all, I must say I remembered the art being worse. Sure, there are the occasionally bad necks, narrow hips and generally messed up anatomy in some drawings but it’s not like Toriyama’s original manga was free from such mistakes either.
Also it seems like Toyotaro can draw most characters really well but struggles with Goku, the most important character, as he draws his face too fat on 3/4 shots and doesn’t give him enough expressions. This is very weird considering it’s the character with the most references, so he could surely improve how he draws him.
As for his “fat” 3/4 shots, his Vegeta and Gohan also often look bad in those. And they also look too similar one to each other, so hopefully he will realise this.

The panelling has its ups and downs. Generally, reading the manga is still easy and enjoyable, similarly to Toriyama’s manga, but there are occasions in which Toyotaro cluttered entire pages too much.
It’s so weird because it seems like Toyotaro is making his work much more difficult by drawing so many panels, some of which are useless. If he improved this aspect, he would have more time to polish his art in the important scenes (as he used to do when he used shading in some panels, especially in the Future Trunks arc).

What I noticed the most, and I have to point out, is just how incredibly disconnected the Moro arc is from the other arcs pacing wise. It’s incredibly slow and thus boring compared to the rest. I still feel like whole pages of it are completely useless and could easily be cut out, which fuels my suspicion that Toyotaro was forced to drag this out while Toriyama and the other higher ups figure out what the next arc will be about.
Either way, if this was the case, Toyotaro could handle the situation better by having less panels, and by avoiding boarding some pages like an anime (ex. Goku teleporting with Vegeta and Buu, or Moro leaving Namek on the ship with the other prisoners).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:32 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:13 am
I have recently re-read the entire Super’s manga, and I wanted to share a quick opinion while it’s fresh in my mind.

First of all, I must say I remembered the art being worse. Sure, there are the occasionally bad necks, narrow hips and generally messed up anatomy in some drawings but it’s not like Toriyama’s original manga was free from such mistakes either.
Also it seems like Toyotaro can draw most characters really well but struggles with Goku, the most important character, as he draws his face too fat on 3/4 shots and doesn’t give him enough expressions. This is very weird considering it’s the character with the most references, so he could surely improve how he draws him.
As for his “fat” 3/4 shots, his Vegeta and Gohan also often look bad in those. And they also look too similar one to each other, so hopefully he will realise this.

The panelling has its ups and downs. Generally, reading the manga is still easy and enjoyable, similarly to Toriyama’s manga, but there are occasions in which Toyotaro cluttered entire pages too much.
It’s so weird because it seems like Toyotaro is making his work much more difficult by drawing so many panels, some of which are useless. If he improved this aspect, he would have more time to polish his art in the important scenes (as he used to do when he used shading in some panels, especially in the Future Trunks arc).

What I noticed the most, and I have to point out, is just how incredibly disconnected the Moro arc is from the other arcs pacing wise. It’s incredibly slow and thus boring compared to the rest. I still feel like whole pages of it are completely useless and could easily be cut out, which fuels my suspicion that Toyotaro was forced to drag this out while Toriyama and the other higher ups figure out what the next arc will be about.
Either way, if this was the case, Toyotaro could handle the situation better by having less panels, and by avoiding boarding some pages like an anime (ex. Goku teleporting with Vegeta and Buu, or Moro leaving Namek on the ship with the other prisoners).
I think this is a pretty solid analysis, with a few points of disagreement such as drawing Goku's face too fat.

I think many here, as well as I, can agree that Toyotarou has had issues with both overpaneling and lack of diverse expressions for characters. While I enjoy the flow of his story in general, having panels with just dumbfounded character expressions really does hamper the immersion. Some of the battle choreography strikes me as strange as well. For example, the most recent chapter has a building thrown right in front of him, but the following panel he's caught it sideways.

When compared to the Super Dragon Ball Heroes manga, which is a reasonable comparison since they're both concurrent, ongoing DB manga series with two different mangaka styles, it feels more verbose and cluttered. I like both, but the SDBH manga has been on a roll and without even comparing the stories (since I'm biased towards SDBH), I'm going to have to favor Nagayama's style if only for his dynamic choreography and more fluid panel transitions.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:01 am

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:32 am
emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:13 am
I have recently re-read the entire Super’s manga, and I wanted to share a quick opinion while it’s fresh in my mind.

First of all, I must say I remembered the art being worse. Sure, there are the occasionally bad necks, narrow hips and generally messed up anatomy in some drawings but it’s not like Toriyama’s original manga was free from such mistakes either.
Also it seems like Toyotaro can draw most characters really well but struggles with Goku, the most important character, as he draws his face too fat on 3/4 shots and doesn’t give him enough expressions. This is very weird considering it’s the character with the most references, so he could surely improve how he draws him.
As for his “fat” 3/4 shots, his Vegeta and Gohan also often look bad in those. And they also look too similar one to each other, so hopefully he will realise this.

The panelling has its ups and downs. Generally, reading the manga is still easy and enjoyable, similarly to Toriyama’s manga, but there are occasions in which Toyotaro cluttered entire pages too much.
It’s so weird because it seems like Toyotaro is making his work much more difficult by drawing so many panels, some of which are useless. If he improved this aspect, he would have more time to polish his art in the important scenes (as he used to do when he used shading in some panels, especially in the Future Trunks arc).

What I noticed the most, and I have to point out, is just how incredibly disconnected the Moro arc is from the other arcs pacing wise. It’s incredibly slow and thus boring compared to the rest. I still feel like whole pages of it are completely useless and could easily be cut out, which fuels my suspicion that Toyotaro was forced to drag this out while Toriyama and the other higher ups figure out what the next arc will be about.
Either way, if this was the case, Toyotaro could handle the situation better by having less panels, and by avoiding boarding some pages like an anime (ex. Goku teleporting with Vegeta and Buu, or Moro leaving Namek on the ship with the other prisoners).
I think this is a pretty solid analysis, with a few points of disagreement such as drawing Goku's face too fat.

I think many here, as well as I, can agree that Toyotarou has had issues with both overpaneling and lack of diverse expressions for characters. While I enjoy the flow of his story in general, having panels with just dumbfounded character expressions really does hamper the immersion. Some of the battle choreography strikes me as strange as well. For example, the most recent chapter has a building thrown right in front of him, but the following panel he's caught it sideways.

When compared to the Super Dragon Ball Heroes manga, which is a reasonable comparison since they're both concurrent, ongoing DB manga series with two different mangaka styles, it feels more verbose and cluttered. I like both, but the SDBH manga has been on a roll and without even comparing the stories (since I'm biased towards SDBH), I'm going to have to favor Nagayama's style if only for his dynamic choreography and more fluid panel transitions.
I don’t know about your building example. It’s not like Yusun threw it straightly so it’s possible it could rotate a little when reaching Vegeta.

About the Heroes manga, going off my memory I remember it having some great panelling and a few nice choreography moments, but Nagayama’s art style looks a lot worse than Toyotaro’s and very far from Toriyama. Also both mediums despite being manga are quite different in their scope. Toyotaro has to work a lot more than Nagayama and his stories are a lot deeper, and I would say his best work far outclasses Nagayama’s best.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:53 pm

I agree the pace this arc has been all over the place. We take a few steps forward and the next chapter we immediately go back.

For example: when Moro's minions are on-route to Earth, Toyotaro speeds up the process by giving them a transportation skill. Immediately after he makes the whole point mute by adjourning the fight.

This makes chapters like the last feel a bit frustrating instead of an interesting look into the character(s) training. We had so many changes of gear that as a reader, I don't know where the story stands and when I hope it will speed up, it's brought to a halt and vice-versa.

Even with a rather uninteresting villain, the scope of this arc with opportunities for so much of the cast had a lot of potential.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Yeah, it’s weird how it’s been paced so far.
In fact I fully expect the next chapter to end with the Earth warriors about to fight Moro’s gang or Moro himself, while I think if this was paced like other arcs we would already get Goku and Vegeta joining the battlefield on the next chapter and starting the fight with Moro.

Heck, I fully expect this arc to go for a lot longer.
I am predicting it will be over by June but it wouldn’t surprise me if it actually goes on for longer than that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:14 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:01 am

I don’t know about your building example. It’s not like Yusun threw it straightly so it’s possible it could rotate a little when reaching Vegeta.

About the Heroes manga, going off my memory I remember it having some great panelling and a few nice choreography moments, but Nagayama’s art style looks a lot worse than Toyotaro’s and very far from Toriyama. Also both mediums despite being manga are quite different in their scope. Toyotaro has to work a lot more than Nagayama and his stories are a lot deeper, and I would say his best work far outclasses Nagayama’s best.
If there was rotation then there would've been spinning lines or something to indicate it. There is no exaggeration or motion to imply that he threw it sideways. The panel transition clearly doesn't flow. And obv this is not the first time he's done something like this either, but this was the most recent, blatant example I could think of.

Nagayama's art style was janky at the beginning, but it was never meant to imitate Toriyama's style, and he's gotten much, much better with his anatomy since then. In fact, it feels more fluid than Toyotarou's comparatively rigid artwork, it feels more rough and less refined, which is something Toriyama once commented Toyo has to improve on and great for battles. His character expressions are also more diverse, which is prob necessary given he has to work with such diverse casts. And tbh, it's much closer to Shintani's work, whereas Toyo's feels more like Yamamuro's work instead.

I disagree with DBS stories being a lot deeper. Sure, they are longer, and yes by drawing standards, Toyotarou likely has to work more (though note Nagayama has lately been juggling not one, but two stories, which is no easy feat), but I'm not sure what is supposed to be deep about multiple tournament arcs and this current arc, unless you meant the training regimes. To me it feels more like the arcs are dragged out for the sake of feeling like a 'story' and new transformations are given some limelight, whereas SDBH simply has the transformation then gets back to telling the story. But to begin with, 'deep' is a term I'm not sure can describe DB to begin with. Certainly, the original DB manga never had the 'depth' that Toyotarou gave to the teachings of Ultra Instinct (which is not a bad thing, Roshi's pseudo-UI was something I really liked). SDBH is fresh and feels like an RPG adventure, which does not necessarily correlate to lesser work quality.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Psajdak » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:08 am

I guess next chapter focus will be on those female prisoners who will face 18, Caulifla, and Kale...

Or maybe they involve Universe 2 trio.

- Vegeta's power up will be dissapointment, one time only, and not something as iconic, and as enduring as Shunkaido.
And he will be back to his usual beams, and lasers.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:14 am

Psajdak wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:08 am
I guess next chapter focus will be on those female prisoners who will face 18, Caulifla, and Kale...

Or maybe they involve Universe 2 trio.

- Vegeta's power up will be dissapointment, one time only, and not something as iconic, and as enduring as Shunkaido.
And he will be back to his usual beams, and lasers.
I very much doubt that U6 Saiyans, or any other warriors from other universes, will be involved in this fight.

But I agree about Vegeta. I am also expecting his technique to only be useful against Moro and to never appear again in future stories.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:02 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:35 am
Remember that time when people wanted Moro to have Janemba level reality warping magic that would have completely undermined the energy absorption powers that made him so dangerous to go against in the first place? Those where fun times. :lol:
It would make him far more dangerous and unique instead Diet Coke king piccolo with added abilities of the androids

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:08 pm

Block88 wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:02 pm
DiscountDabi wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:35 am
Remember that time when people wanted Moro to have Janemba level reality warping magic that would have completely undermined the energy absorption powers that made him so dangerous to go against in the first place? Those where fun times. :lol:
It would make him far more dangerous and unique instead Diet Coke king piccolo with added abilities of the androids
First off, the androids absorption pales in comparrison to Moros and effectiveley just means they couldnt use ki blasts.

Second, if he had the reality warping powers, seeing how people already call him discount king piccolo, wouldn't that just make him discount Janemba?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:28 pm

When you read over the Daizenshuu's entries for magical abilities such as Babidi's, it's a little jarring how this deceptively weak magician wasn't a more efficacious threat to the group. The so called "Rupturing Sorcery" that he used on Spopovich would be extremely dangerous to anyone who can't regenerate their entire body as it's described as causing the blood in the victim's body to violently convulse, causing their body to swell and tear itself apart. A high power level shouldn't be able to stop a biological condition like that.

All of that doesn't factor in the barrier that he projected which was powerful enough to withstand the force of an earnest explosive attack from Fat Buu. In the hands of a writer who knew how to better portray esoteric characters like Babidi, the Z-group would have really needed to go outside of their general comfort zone in order to counteract his abilities. Maybe Shin could have been of greater use in that case? I mean he does happen to be capable of using magic in such a way that anything he mentally envisions comes into existence (materialisation sorcery is what it's called iirc). How is that not conceptually invaluable against an adversarial magician such as Babidi or for any situation really?

Moro still has time to distinguish himself more but so far he's not been the most impressive, I have to confess.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pantalones » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:45 am

Lionel wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:28 pm
The so called "Rupturing Sorcery" that he used on Spopovich would be extremely dangerous to anyone who can't regenerate their entire body as it's described as causing the blood in the victim's body to violently convulse, causing their body to swell and tear itself apart. A high power level shouldn't be able to stop a biological condition like that.
Why not? A high power level lets people survive things like the shockwaves of explosions, the effects of extreme gravity, etc. that could definitely kill normal humans. Somebody like Vegeta or Piccolo would just feel some mild discomfort for a moment from their blood moving in unusual ways (if the spell was powerful enough to affect them at all) and then shrug it off with no permanent harm and effortlessly smack Babidi into a mountain.

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