"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

I think if any writer portrayed magic the way it would be, it'd be extremely difficult and unbelievable for the main cast to overcome that adversary, given their main expertise and combat abilities.

And if they could overcome the magic with a high enough power level, well... what's the point of it in the 1st place then?

[Lionel]

The so called "Rupturing Sorcery" that he used on Spopovich would be extremely dangerous to anyone who can't regenerate their entire body as it's described as causing the blood in the victim's body to violently convulse, causing their body to swell and tear itself apart. A high power level shouldn't be able to stop a biological condition like that.

Why not? A high power level lets people survive things like the shockwaves of explosions, the effects of extreme gravity, etc. that could definitely kill normal humans. Somebody like Vegeta or Piccolo would just feel some mild discomfort for a moment from their blood moving in unusual ways (if the spell was powerful enough to affect them at all) and then shrug it off with no permanent harm and effortlessly smack Babidi into a mountain.

Those sound like external impetuses bearing on character as they already have their ki shielding their bodies. We know most of these characters require macronutrients, vitamins, and minerals from food to survive. They have respiratory systems that require oxygen to supply the necessary cellular energy for survival. Biologics have already been shown to work effectively against them as Pilaf's knock-out gas trap, Roshi's aerosol anaesthetic in the Daimou arc, and the heart virus in the Cell arc demonstrated.

Babidi's sorcerery seems to attack all of the blood supply in the body and cause it to distend to the point that it tears apart the internal body and ultimately cause the external to rupture.

[emperior]

The so called "Rupturing Sorcery" that he used on Spopovich would be extremely dangerous to anyone who can't regenerate their entire body as it's described as causing the blood in the victim's body to violently convulse, causing their body to swell and tear itself apart. A high power level shouldn't be able to stop a biological condition like that.

Why not? A high power level lets people survive things like the shockwaves of explosions, the effects of extreme gravity, etc. that could definitely kill normal humans. Somebody like Vegeta or Piccolo would just feel some mild discomfort for a moment from their blood moving in unusual ways (if the spell was powerful enough to affect them at all) and then shrug it off with no permanent harm and effortlessly smack Babidi into a mountain.

Those sound like external impetuses bearing on character as they already have their ki shielding their bodies. We know most of these characters require macronutrients, vitamins, and minerals from food to survive. They have respiratory systems that require oxygen to supply the necessary cellular energy for survival. Biologics have already been shown to work effectively against them as Pilaf's knock-out gas trap, Roshi's aerosol anaesthetic in the Daimou arc, and the heart virus in the Cell arc demonstrated.

Babidi's sorcerery seems to attack all of the blood supply in the body and cause it to distend to the point that it tears apart the internal body and ultimately cause the external to rupture.

This is DB. That kind of sorcery from someone weak like Babidi would have never worked on fighters like Goku or Vegeta. And it would have never been interesting, that’s why having a high Ki allows the characters to be invulnerable from this kind of stuff.

[Lionel]

Why not? A high power level lets people survive things like the shockwaves of explosions, the effects of extreme gravity, etc. that could definitely kill normal humans. Somebody like Vegeta or Piccolo would just feel some mild discomfort for a moment from their blood moving in unusual ways (if the spell was powerful enough to affect them at all) and then shrug it off with no permanent harm and effortlessly smack Babidi into a mountain.

Those sound like external impetuses bearing on character as they already have their ki shielding their bodies. We know most of these characters require macronutrients, vitamins, and minerals from food to survive. They have respiratory systems that require oxygen to supply the necessary cellular energy for survival. Biologics have already been shown to work effectively against them as Pilaf's knock-out gas trap, Roshi's aerosol anaesthetic in the Daimou arc, and the heart virus in the Cell arc demonstrated.

Babidi's sorcerery seems to attack all of the blood supply in the body and cause it to distend to the point that it tears apart the internal body and ultimately cause the external to rupture.

This is DB. That kind of sorcery from someone weak like Babidi would have never worked on fighters like Goku or Vegeta. And it would have never been interesting, that’s why having a high Ki allows the characters to be invulnerable from this kind of stuff.

How does a high power level negate haematic distension in areas of the body such as the brain, heart, lungs, muscles, and various other areas? They would have likely lost consciousness in very short time due to things like subdural hemotoma or some other condition brought on by ruptured and overpressurised blood pathways in their body.

Going by what the Daizenshuu has described, it doesn't sound like Babidi's magic in that area operates with the same mechanics as someone like Moro's.

[Rakurai]

How does a high power level negate haematic distension in areas of the body such as the brain, heart, lungs, muscles, and various other areas? They would have likely lost consciousness in very short time due to things like subdural hemotoma or some other condition brought on by ruptured and overpressurised blood pathways in their body.

Going by what the Daizenshuu has described, it doesn't sound like Babidi's magic in that area operates with the same mechanics as someone like Moro's.

I mean to be fair, we've seen beings like Vegetto survive Buuhan being inside his body and even forcing him out. And, ofc, the ever famous Majin Vegeta resist scene from Babidi's mind control.

I suppose high enough power levels as well as strong wills can possibly prevent magic like Babidi's from being effective.

[Lionel]

How does a high power level negate haematic distension in areas of the body such as the brain, heart, lungs, muscles, and various other areas? They would have likely lost consciousness in very short time due to things like subdural hemotoma or some other condition brought on by ruptured and overpressurised blood pathways in their body.

Going by what the Daizenshuu has described, it doesn't sound like Babidi's magic in that area operates with the same mechanics as someone like Moro's.

I mean to be fair, we've seen beings like Vegetto survive Buuhan being inside his body and even forcing him out. And, ofc, the ever famous Majin Vegeta resist scene from Babidi's mind control.

I suppose high enough power levels as well as strong wills can possibly prevent magic like Babidi's from being effective.

Near as I can tell, the Vegetto incident seemed to involve Buu trying to use his own mass in order to manipulate his opponent's body from the inside-out. Babidi's magic is described as transmitting his thoughts into his victims. I admit both do share some similarities with respect to their emphasis on the internalisation of the character's being when it comes to being attacked, though Babidi's power seems to weaponise the victim's blood itself. As to Vegeta, wasn't that a product of his pride and willpower? Imagine if Babidi had somehow managed to damage Vegeta's insula. From a chemical standpoint, that would be attacking the cerebral source of his pride itself.

[Koitsukai]

I guess that if it did not happen, was not used or not tried even against Piccolo (probably because Toriyama forgot, as usual) the in-universe reason has to be that Babidi's technique has a limit.

[emperior]

This is a battle shonen. I can’t imagine any compelling scenario in which Babidi is a potent villain who kills fighters much stronger than him by making their veins explode. DB characters are protected by this kind of stuff, I would guess their Ki is so high it acts as a barrier for this kind of stuff.

Also Daizenshuu’s explanation for the veins exploding magic is not in the manga, thus even if the books were supervised and approved by Toriyama they aren’t necessarily canonical.

[Rakurai]

Near as I can tell, the Vegetto incident seemed to involve Buu trying to use his own mass in order to manipulate his opponent's body from the inside-out. Babidi's magic is described as transmitting his thoughts into his victims. I admit both do share some similarities with respect to their emphasis on the internalisation of the character's being when it comes to being attacked, though Babidi's power seems to weaponise the victim's blood itself. As to Vegeta, wasn't that a product of his pride and willpower? Imagine if Babidi had somehow managed to damage Vegeta's insula. From a chemical standpoint, that would be attacking the cerebral source of his pride itself.

I mean, if Vegeta could resist mind control with pride, then I wouldn't be surprised if Goku could resist with 'guts' or some other simple shounen stuff.

Like I mentioned before, if Babidi were truly capable of actually implementing his magic and bypassing PLs, then it'd be near impossible or unbelievable to counter someone like him... hence why DBS has stuck primarily to draining ki or sapping strength or exposing openings or some other martial arts-related stuff.

[Lionel]

Near as I can tell, the Vegetto incident seemed to involve Buu trying to use his own mass in order to manipulate his opponent's body from the inside-out. Babidi's magic is described as transmitting his thoughts into his victims. I admit both do share some similarities with respect to their emphasis on the internalisation of the character's being when it comes to being attacked, though Babidi's power seems to weaponise the victim's blood itself. As to Vegeta, wasn't that a product of his pride and willpower? Imagine if Babidi had somehow managed to damage Vegeta's insula. From a chemical standpoint, that would be attacking the cerebral source of his pride itself.

I mean, if Vegeta could resist mind control with pride, then I wouldn't be surprised if Goku could resist with 'guts' or some other simple shounen stuff.

Like I mentioned before, if Babidi were truly capable of actually implementing his magic and bypassing PLs, then it'd be near impossible or unbelievable to counter someone like him... hence why DBS has stuck primarily to draining ki or sapping strength or exposing openings or some other martial arts-related stuff.

I'm sort of inclined to believe the theory about Toriyama likely not giving the matter much thought. Ability negligence has been an ongoing affliction of the Dragon Ball series since early on. It might be why we don't see Piccolo devising a plan to have himself and Tenshinhan symmetrically trap the Saiyans with the Mafuba -- or why Shin expressed such uncertainty about fighting Dabura yet being shown capable of immobilising him with his paralysis arts in the Future Trunks arc of Super and destroying a blast capable of almost killing a full powered SSJ Gohan.

[Noitsnothim]

Would this story (Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga/Moro Arc) have worked better if it started with us being introduced to Moro's goons and them breaking out/heading to New Namek for the Dragon Balls to make a free Moro. Saganbo and his Goon brigade would be equivalent in Power to The U7 team during the T.O.P I feel like this is the usual cliche DB/Z thing to do but I (personally) would have appreciated Moro a bit more had he had a build up before his initial reveal and making him truly a scary foe

[emperior]

Near as I can tell, the Vegetto incident seemed to involve Buu trying to use his own mass in order to manipulate his opponent's body from the inside-out. Babidi's magic is described as transmitting his thoughts into his victims. I admit both do share some similarities with respect to their emphasis on the internalisation of the character's being when it comes to being attacked, though Babidi's power seems to weaponise the victim's blood itself. As to Vegeta, wasn't that a product of his pride and willpower? Imagine if Babidi had somehow managed to damage Vegeta's insula. From a chemical standpoint, that would be attacking the cerebral source of his pride itself.

I mean, if Vegeta could resist mind control with pride, then I wouldn't be surprised if Goku could resist with 'guts' or some other simple shounen stuff.

Like I mentioned before, if Babidi were truly capable of actually implementing his magic and bypassing PLs, then it'd be near impossible or unbelievable to counter someone like him... hence why DBS has stuck primarily to draining ki or sapping strength or exposing openings or some other martial arts-related stuff.

I'm sort of inclined to believe the theory about Toriyama likely not giving the matter much thought. Ability negligence has been an ongoing affliction of the Dragon Ball series since early on. It might be why we don't see Piccolo devising a plan to have himself and Tenshinhan symmetrically trap the Saiyans with the Mafuba -- or why Shin expressed such uncertainty about fighting Dabura yet being shown capable of immobilising him with his paralysis arts in the Future Trunks arc of Super and destroying a blast capable of almost killing a full powered SSJ Gohan.

Shin was able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan, I think it made sense for him to be able to immobilize Dabura. This doesn’t change how he was outclassed by Dabura, and immobilizing him wouldn’t be useful if there was no one to kill him.

[Lionel]

I mean, if Vegeta could resist mind control with pride, then I wouldn't be surprised if Goku could resist with 'guts' or some other simple shounen stuff.

Like I mentioned before, if Babidi were truly capable of actually implementing his magic and bypassing PLs, then it'd be near impossible or unbelievable to counter someone like him... hence why DBS has stuck primarily to draining ki or sapping strength or exposing openings or some other martial arts-related stuff.

I'm sort of inclined to believe the theory about Toriyama likely not giving the matter much thought. Ability negligence has been an ongoing affliction of the Dragon Ball series since early on. It might be why we don't see Piccolo devising a plan to have himself and Tenshinhan symmetrically trap the Saiyans with the Mafuba -- or why Shin expressed such uncertainty about fighting Dabura yet being shown capable of immobilising him with his paralysis arts in the Future Trunks arc of Super and destroying a blast capable of almost killing a full powered SSJ Gohan.

Shin was able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan, I think it made sense for him to be able to immobilize Dabura. This doesn’t change how he was outclassed by Dabura, and immobilizing him wouldn’t be useful if there was no one to kill him.

Well that's the reason why I elaborated on Shin's abilities by including the kiai he used to dispel Buu's near-fatal ki projectile used against Gohan. Shin's intentions were to collaborate with the others and defeat Babidi's group as a team in the first place. Shin held a vague understanding of Super Saiyan 2's existence from the events at the tournament, though it seemed like he wasn't able to deduce Goku and Vegeta's ability to use the form until after they were already deep within the confines of Babidi's ship.

I don't know why Shin became so hysterical and courage-deprived once arriving at Babidi's ship. It's like this iteration of his character and the one from the 25th tournament were like two different interpretations of him. Given what we know of Toriyama's seat-of-his-pants writing process, it wouldn't surprise me if he conceived of a different, less capable attitude for Shin within the time span between settings.

[Rakurai]

I'm sort of inclined to believe the theory about Toriyama likely not giving the matter much thought. Ability negligence has been an ongoing affliction of the Dragon Ball series since early on. It might be why we don't see Piccolo devising a plan to have himself and Tenshinhan symmetrically trap the Saiyans with the Mafuba -- or why Shin expressed such uncertainty about fighting Dabura yet being shown capable of immobilising him with his paralysis arts in the Future Trunks arc of Super and destroying a blast capable of almost killing a full powered SSJ Gohan.

I think that Shin's special abilities are in the same spirit as Freeza's telekinesis - they are formed by using ki, and can be resisted if opposed with enough of the victim's ki.

Which leads one to wonder why Goku's Instant Teleportation cannot be resisted in the same manner - certainly, Cell couldn't at the very least. It prob has to do something with Spirit control being different from regular ki.

[sora_02]

The theory of merus is confirmed is an angel, vegeta vs the guy who looks like zarbon (will be of the same race), Vegeta is learning to control his spirit and also Want to learn another technique instead of teleportation, How will Goku return to earth? You have already forgotten that you can use teleportation and have even piloted spacecraft in the past

[Kepiaschkz]

How will Goku return to earth? You have already forgotten that you can use teleportation and have even piloted spacecraft in the past

The Goku's spaceship improved by Dr. Brief was programmed so that it would automatically reach its destination after pushing one single button. That's not the case for Merus's one as far as I know.

As for teleportation, Toyotaro made some minor mistakes in the past, but not as huge as this one. We have a full sub-arc dedicated to Vegeta trying to learn IT in Yardrat, it's not for the main user of the technique to forget he can use it.

Until proven wrong, we have to assume he actually can't use it for now for some reason. The most obvious I can think is the planet he is currently on is too far removed from the nearest familiar Ki he can sense.

I bet it is a plot device to recycle the "secondary characters fight the main villain waiting for Goku to arrive" and at the same time a way to include Freeza or Broly in this arc. Either because they are the only Ki he can sense from this planet or because he get there randomly because he doesn't know how to pilot Merus spaceship.

[GodVegetto91]

Some slight spoilers regarding the upcoming manga chapter.

http://ryokutya2089.com/archives/27888

All out fight between Moro's goons and Earth Warriors.
Yamcha showcases some great moves in the chapter, tho the leaker is not certain if he'll be able do the same in the next chapter after this one and makes a joke he might die.
One of the Androids (either 17 or 18) also fights.
New techniques are being used in the fights, one of which is a new fusion technique.
Either Goku or Vegeta (only one of them/unclear who), appear or are close to/heading to Earth at the end of chapter.

[mute_proxy]

Oh come on, another fusion? It's like they're not even trying anymore everyone transforms, everyone fuses, everyone absorbs something. New gimmick please

[Grimlock]

New fusion, huh? It's about time since Toriyama established it. Hopefully it's a fusion for some other purpose other than just increasing power.

[jplaya2023]

new fusion? the only people that could possibly fuse is tien and yamcha (similiar physical builds and both are humans)

unless trunks and goten get potarra earrings or something