"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:23 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:13 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:30 pm
Does this tie back when he told them that they needed to get materials when his plan is realized? What could he possibly mean by that?
I've given that one some thought. I honestly don't have a clue. Amusingly, Moro's dialogue would suggest it's the materials that matter more to his "ideals" than the underlings themselves. This could lead somewhere interesting.

If there's one thing I have to give to the arc, Moro has become almost infinitely more intriguing as an antagonist than he was initially presented. He's not very different from Piccolo Daimao, but he works towards his ambitions in somewhat elusive ways and has (more recently) posed some fairly unique challenges to the heroes. I'm eager to see where Toyotaro takes him.
Yeah, it seems Moro's objective has only been hinted at. The full story hasn't come out yet. His mystery has kept me intrigued.
So we know he wants a galaxy to freely absorb. Does he plan on using the treasure his minions pillage to let that specific galaxy function economically? Seems like there will be no other societies left once he gets done with his plan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:19 pm

I'll be honest, I haven't been impressed by this storyline...

But this latest chapter rocked, and I'm excited for the next one for the first time since this arc was just starting out.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 pm

Brojack wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:22 pm
Ronin wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:22 pm
I'm enjoying this for the most part. Doesn't feel like a continuation of canon, but more like an okay filler arc or movie.
I think even that's being a bit kind. I've seen a lot of praise for this arc from fans and I have no idea what they're smoking. It's been terrible.

There's next to no worthwhile story involved here. Some goat wizard just randomly pops up, frees some bad guys and then goes around eating planets until he decides to go to Earth so the main characters have to band together to stop them.

Thats the actual plot. Any little kid could have come up with something like that.

Moro has no personality whatsoever, his gimmick of being a wizard just boils down to him being a ripoff of Cell and absorbing energy to get stronger. His character design is so bad that there's no way Toriyama could have done it. He's had no build up, he hasn't been explored, he just literally came out of nowhere.

The whole story is just recycled. They went and fought on Namek until it was destroyed again... couldn't even be bothered to create a new planet. Now they're fighting on Earth again when the story allowed the possibility to have other locations.

People are happy that the other characters are involved...doing what? They're doing nothing but fighting no name scrubs.

The fights have been forgettable. None of the new characters are interesting except at a push Merus whose gone now. Goku and Vegeta are gonna show up at the last minute to stop the main bad guy yet again.

This whole arc is pretty much just a recycled version of the Resurrection F movie. It's entirely shallow.
Toyo recycling something??? Never Haha.

I think fans are just desperate for anything new and clinging on to anything even this PoS. Toyo is awful can't draw and can't write for shit needs to be gone and get someone who isn't a glorified fanboy so we can have some objectivity in writing.

The fact Toyo is so proud about the fact that he literally designed a stereotypical clown says it all really.

He also recently voted the worst BWFC figure as the best... (either he is blind or only did it because it was SS4) he is a plague on this franchise and needs to GTFO.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:05 pm

Toyotaro isn't great, it's obvious his work is from an up and comer. However, getting rid of him isn't the solution. It's keeping Toriyama in charge of DB. Regardless of the feelings concerning TOEI/Toyotaro. We know the DB product will not be up to par without being bossed by the original author.

With that said, I will trust Toriyama, who chose Toyotaro and even Shintani himself to work on the Broly movie.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm

I have no clue why I should like Moro and fuck Toyo-tarou for not making that apparent THIRTEEN 45-PAGE CHAPTERS into this story arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 pm

The Toyotaro bashing in this thread is unfortunate

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:29 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 pm
The Toyotaro bashing in this thread is unfortunate
Tis the fate of all artists.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 pm

You should actually explain your antagonist's motivations and add depth to their characters after thirteen chapters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:07 am

Mediocrity is pretty par for Super in both anime and manga form so I just enjoy what I can here and there. I've given up looking at it for any sort of quality as it only has rare moments of it. It's fine junk food I can enjoy in the same vein as Heroes. Fan service is practically all I can expect to be fun because neither the anime nor manga does substance and when it tries to pretend it has any it's laughable. So I practically tune in to enjoy what I can and drown out my disappointments. So basically the same thing I do with Sonic the Hedgehog and Star Wars.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:32 am

This arc has been nothing special, and I still don’t get why so many fans keep hyping it up as one of Super’s best.
About a month ago I did a complete re-reading of Toyotaro’s manga, and the Galactic Patrol arc came off as undoubtedly the worst arc. It’s noticeable that this is missing Toriyama’s input.
This doesn’t mean this arc is bad - it’s just decent, and also very inoffensive right now, so it’s not like I wished this never happened, as there are some great moments such as Vegeta’s characterisation on Namek and his training on Yardrat, or the plot twist about Merus. And the gags have been fantastic.
But I wish this could have been better and I hope it will improve now that its entering its climax.

I am confident this can have a great ending, and I am especially looking forward to seeing the fruits of the training Goku and Vegeta underwent. Them training separetely and in different ways is the best choice Toyotaro could have made and it’s my favorite part of the arc, and basically what has salvaged it for me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:43 am

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:05 pm
Toyotaro isn't great, it's obvious his work is from an up and comer. However, getting rid of him isn't the solution. It's keeping Toriyama in charge of DB. Regardless of the feelings concerning TOEI/Toyotaro. We know the DB product will not be up to par without being bossed by the original author.

With that said, I will trust Toriyama, who chose Toyotaro and even Shintani himself to work on the Broly movie.
Personally, I have the opposite view, to an extent.

I do think Toyo should stick around; he's got talent, for sure. But, I think it's foolish to say Dragon Ball will only be good under Toriyama. It's clear from his storylines for Super that these days, he's lost his spark. The reason Battle Of Gods and Broly were good movies is because talented screenwriters turned Toriyama's incoherent mess of neat ideas into something really solid. Sadly, there's not always been the opportunity for that to adequately happen.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:45 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:50 pm

I'm sorry but, one or two instances of strategy making a nice supplement to raw strength doesn't really validate the idea that strategy was important during the ToP. At that point you might as well argue that strategy and teamwork were important in the fight against Freeza back on Namek because PIccolo held off Freeza long enough for Goku to finish the Genki Dama. Ultimately it didn't matter because that fight against Freeza was a test of strength much like how in the ToP strategy and teamwork ultimately did nothing to help anyone except a very small number of participants.
It depends on your take on strategy means to the ToP arc. I never claimed or said strategy was important throughout, much less a theme, the ToP. But it was certainly important to U7 winning.

On the other hand. Teamwork WAS important to U7's victory, it was important to other universes surviving for as long as they could, even if it was done in a roundabout manner. Yes it's not infallible, yes it's not failsafe, but teamwork/cooperation can get the fighters further than if they were to have gone alone. That's something we are shown & told.

The Namek saga example isn't a very good one because that was not focused or concentrated on teamwork. That was stalling for time, endurance. A case of teamwork is when Goku & Piccolo work together, like against Raditz.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:26 am

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:23 pm
The Undying wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:13 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:30 pm
Does this tie back when he told them that they needed to get materials when his plan is realized? What could he possibly mean by that?
I've given that one some thought. I honestly don't have a clue. Amusingly, Moro's dialogue would suggest it's the materials that matter more to his "ideals" than the underlings themselves. This could lead somewhere interesting.

If there's one thing I have to give to the arc, Moro has become almost infinitely more intriguing as an antagonist than he was initially presented. He's not very different from Piccolo Daimao, but he works towards his ambitions in somewhat elusive ways and has (more recently) posed some fairly unique challenges to the heroes. I'm eager to see where Toyotaro takes him.
Yeah, it seems Moro's objective has only been hinted at. The full story hasn't come out yet. His mystery has kept me intrigued.
So we know he wants a galaxy to freely absorb. Does he plan on using the treasure his minions pillage to let that specific galaxy function economically? Seems like there will be no other societies left once he gets done with his plan.
Are you guys seriously not getting what Moro meant by that???

It was a threat. He basically told them that after he has no more use for them, he will dispose of them (kill them!)

This was after they told Moro they’d make a pretty good team. Moro didn’t like hearing that because he’s an evil, psychopathic killer. So he basically told them that if they wanted to stay alive, they had better stay useful to him. Like a human feeding a lion or bear until they run out of food and get eaten and killed. Moro is no different.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 am

Brojack wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:09 pm
That's irrelevant to what I said but whatever. Stop harrassing me.
A moderator or administrator addressing your behavior, or in this case, directly answering your questions about actual forum activity, is not "harassment", and it's beyond absurd to paint it as such. Playing the victim (over literally nothing) is explicitly against the community guidelines, which you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. You will not receive any further free warnings.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm
I have no clue why I should like Moro and fuck Toyo-tarou for not making that apparent THIRTEEN 45-PAGE CHAPTERS into this story arc.
You know this is not an appropriate contribution. There are better ways to express what you're trying to say in every regard here. If you're not willing to provide worthwhile context for what your opinion is, perhaps toss it out in Twitter's reduced character count and be done with it. This is a place for conversation, not ranting into the wind.

------------------

In regard to various folks asking how it's even remotely possible for anyone to like this arc:

I'm really enjoying it. I'd say I borderline love it.

First thing's first: I love the Galactic Patrol. I have since Sachie and Jiya, and especially since Jaco. That said lore is being expanded on and added to makes my day every 21st of the month. I love learning more about how they work, how dysfunctional they are at times, etc.

Yes, many parts of this arc have effectively been re-doings of Resurrection 'F'; from my viewpoint, that's a good thing, considering how much of a letdown that movie/arc ultimately was. I'll be the first to get in line for knocking things down a peg for redoing things, but what gets redone just works so well for me here. Really love everyone on Earth getting something worthwhile to do (especially having Yamaha involved, as he should have always been).

I think the lore expansion on Dai Kaioshin and what's actually inside Boo is great stuff. I've been super critical in the past of Toyotaro for various "look at me, I paid attention, and I remember things!" (including in this very same arc), and right now we just don't know whether it was him or Toriyama who would have ultimately written that, but I dig it big time.

Speaking of "I paid attention!" call-outs, the reveal of Cranberi having been that one dude on Namek was so great. Probably should have seen it coming a mile away, but that felt like a super cool "tie things together, expand the world, yet somehow also don't shrink the world in the process". Hard to put in words I guess, but it just works for me.

The Merusu stuff was obviously being pretty heavily telegraphed, and I think there are some things I probably would have liked them to do instead of the kinda basic situation (I dunno, are we all just preoccupied with knowing what happened to the destroyed universes and what their angels might be up to?)... but I still like him fine enough. His design (face, hair in particular, etc.) screams 1980s anime designs to me, so I am THE BIAS perhaps.

I dunno, y'all. I just really, really dig the arc. The manga finally feels like a real product telling a real story, doing so on its own time, with a fully realized galaxy out there. I hope we learn some more cool stuff about Moro and his motivations, but even if he winds up being exactly what we see of him now, he'll at least, to me, have been a great backdrop to get some amazing other story beats.

Anyway, comparatively-extremely-old Dragon Ball fan here really loving this arc and its storytelling and its backdrop and its characters, I can at least remotely articulate some of those things I like about it, different people like different things anyway, so please don't assume you have the final word on what is and isn't good.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:12 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 am
Anyway, comparatively-extremely-old Dragon Ball fan here really loving this arc and its storytelling and its backdrop and its characters, I can at least remotely articulate some of those things I like about it, different people like different things anyway, so please don't assume you have the final word on what is and isn't good.
I think you might be referring to my post, when I said I don’t get all the hype behind the arc. Yes, indeed I do not have the final word on whether or not this is good, therefore I am happy to read WHY people are liking this arc because, so far, I haven’t read many posts detailed like yours explaining exactly what you like in this arc.
And posts like these may actually help me re-evalute this arc in the future (because, trust me, I really wish I could enjoy it as much as you do!).

What I disliked most about this arc was how it handled Goku. He was basically irrelevant in the story, only serving as a teleporting tool and having barely any interesting dialogue before he and Vegeta parted ways.
The pacing was another problem, but it’s more apparent when I have to wait a month for the chapter to release and isn’t much of an issue when re-reading (even though some parts bore me, and I still find to be useless).

I really really hope that, eventually, once this arc ends I will be able to go back and re-read it with a different perspective and enjoy it more than I ever did so far.
That will probably depend on how Toyotaro handles the climax, and if he manages to effectively tie everything together.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:27 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:01 am

There was no teamwork in that arc until like the very end. I'm not even going to humor that idea.
I deal with this kind of rejection of reality on an almost daily basis interacting with alt-right bots. I don't need it in Dragonball too.

Go re-read the arc. Every confrontation either features people working together, or people failing to work together and that costing them.
Much like ToP validated Freeza's.
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I listed Broly to show how Saiyan themed films made increasingly more money. My example before it was "The Three Great Super Saiyans." The only Saiyan themed film not exceed the first two Z-era film was the Tullece film which made marginally less than Return My Gohan. And I take issue with how you're framing where the manga was when Broly was released. The first Broly film came out in March of 1993 when the manga was still on chapter 413. The Buu Arc wouldn't begin until chapter 421. If I'm misreading these numbers/publications dates I will happily admit to being wrong but as best I can tell, it's perfectly fair to call Broly a Cell era villain
Okay, there's a lot to unpack here. Forgive me for using a list format, but it's the cleanest way to do it.

1. The only time Toriyama has ever said he made changes to make his manga more popular is with the introduction of the Tenkaichi Budokai. Tournament arcs were popular, so he tried one to boost his manga's popularity. Given the type of person Toriyama is, I have little reason to doubt that he would be forthright with his need to pander if he did indeed intend to do so.

2. Toei capitalizes on whatever is going on in the main story at the time. Goku and Piccolo team up against Raditz? Garlic Jr. Namekians? Lord Slug. Saiyans? Evil Goku with a tree. Frieza? Cooler. Etc. By the time of "The Three Great Super Saiyans," the saiyans and this transformation had become prominent parts of the story. You're not making a point so much as you're making a well-known and well-worn observation.

3. None of this has anything to do with what I originally said. Toriyama had nothing left for those characters. They died against Nappa, did nothing on Kaio's planet, did nothing when Frieza and Cold came to Earth, did nothing against 19 and 20 and certainly did nothing against Cell. Nappa was their last hoorah, and that was well before Super Saiyans or Toei marketing money getting into his pocket.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm
I have no clue why I should like Moro and fuck Toyo-tarou for not making that apparent THIRTEEN 45-PAGE CHAPTERS into this story arc.
Generally, villains are written to be unlikable.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 pm
You should actually explain your antagonist's motivations and add depth to their characters after thirteen chapters.
While I agree that Moro is pretty lackluster, these absolutes are also lackluster. For every antagonist whose motivations and depth are revealed right away, I can give you a dozen others who didn't get any of that until dozens, if not hundreds of chapters in. It depends on the story being told. The story being told here doesn't require Moro explaining what he's about or what drives him; he's as much as mystery to us as he is to the characters. Nobody in the story really knows what drives him or what he wants, and it has been brought up before.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:42 pm

So, what do you guys think will be of Dai Kai O Shin? I mean, he happened to still be alive after so long, will he just go back to sleep inside of Buu? would that be the smartest, godly thing to do by Shin's standards? is Beerus still linked to him? if that's the case, would Beerus prefer to have the guy kept safe inside of the sleeping fatty? does the guy have any say in this? Mr. Satan would definitely be against it.
I mean, there is a god trapped inside a chewing-gum monster, we always thought he was dead but now we know better, will a deity be left there? Personally, I want him out, but I'm sensing Toyo/Toei/Toriyama will go the safe route and keep everything as it is.

Removing the highest god from Buu (who has been nothing but useless since being spit out of Kid Buu), shouldn't be a problem, pure Buu would be killed with ease by pretty much any main character.



About Moro, although it feels like the last chapter he was a part of was forever ago (like, what? august? september?), I find it refreshing that the new bad guy is not just another powerhouse and his menacing presence is due to his gimmicks and not his muscles. Super has been trying this out with Hit, Dyspo in the anime, and now Moro. Hitting them really hard isn't the answer anymore, and I like it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:51 pm

Moro is kind of boring to me but I’ve never been much of a villain fan to begin with. I did like Goku Black/ Zamasu because the series at least tried to show how Zamasu went corrupt but otherwise I care more about how the the good guys will defeat the villains not the villains motivation and that is what interests me about this arc. So far at least Goku and Vegeta have to think out of the box (beyond just power up and get stronger) to beat Moro. That personally makes Moro an interesting antagonist for me even if as a character he is a bit lacking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brojack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:33 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 pm
Toyo recycling something??? Never Haha.

I think fans are just desperate for anything new and clinging on to anything even this PoS. Toyo is awful can't draw and can't write for shit needs to be gone and get someone who isn't a glorified fanboy so we can have some objectivity in writing.

The fact Toyo is so proud about the fact that he literally designed a stereotypical clown says it all really.

He also recently voted the worst BWFC figure as the best... (either he is blind or only did it because it was SS4) he is a plague on this franchise and needs to GTFO.
This fanbase is way too easily pleased. Shoehorn in a few useless secondary characters "Omg Yamcha is there!" and barely expand on something that we hardly knew about is "lore building" and that's enough to make them happy.

The secondary characters will amount to nothing but fighting against fodder to pad the manga out until the typical Goku and Vegeta save the day routine for the umpteenth time. People were happy with what they did with Buu....they did nothing with Buu, he fought a guy and it had absolutely no significance on the story at all. Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Roshi and Chiaotzu are going to do nothing but simply appear.

Again there's no story at all. Some super powerful goat just suddenly came out nowhere, there was a brief one scene flashback showing how the goat ate planets and was captured and then it's back to present day and he's just...eating more planets. Now they have to stop him....that's the plot.

It's practically the exact same thing they did with Buu. He was a being that destroyed planets, fought the Kai, was sealed and then millions of years later came back to do more of the same and they had to stop him.

And now he's coming to Earth with an army and the Z Fighters have to hold them off until Goku and Vegeta arrive. The exact same as a story we got only 5 years ago.

People are still curious about him and want to know more about him but this should already have happened. They're supposed to develop the character before the final battles so you actually give a shit about what's going on.

It's called the Galactic Patrol arc where the Galactic Patrol themselves are completely useless and whose only purpose now seems to be to assist scrubs like Yamcha and the others.

The whole thing is about as shallow as Bojack Unbound and that was a hour long movie. This arc has been going on for a year and a half.
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 am
or in this case, directly answering your questions about actual forum activity


You've quoted me three times and replied to me a fourth and not a single time was a question asked. I'm not playing the victim, I'm telling you to stop bothering me especially when the post you're referring to was two days ago and I'd completely forgot about it. Move on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brojack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:45 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:32 am
About a month ago I did a complete re-reading of Toyotaro’s manga, and the Galactic Patrol arc came off as undoubtedly the worst arc. It’s noticeable that this is missing Toriyama’s input.
I don't know if I'd say it was the worst because the flash in a pan Battle of Gods saga was a waste of time but compared to say the Goku Black Saga it's a big step down.

That wasn't great either but it at least has a story to it and the antagonists were interesting. Now we have a paper thin story with a antagonists about as deep as Lord Slug and his minions.

Remember in the original manga how they used to built up antagonists and major fights with anticipation? It was a long time after Frieza was introduced that Goku finally fought him. Same with Cell.

Here, they introduced Moro in Chapter 43 and by chapter 44 they were already fighting him. His character design was pretty decent and unique originally and now he looks generic.

People gave Jiren shit as an antagonist but he was better than Moro.

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