"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:56 pm

Personally I think Jiren is a lot worse than Moro. Just a boring overpowered character. There is nothing to him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 pm

I think they are equally boring (as most of Dragon Ball Super characters are, actually). I gave Moro the benefit of doubt in the beginning since it was said/implied or whatever that he would use magic abilities, which is something you don't see that often in Dragon Ball. Well, here we are... I don't remember seeing him using magic at all. If he were to appear in games right now, the developers would certainly have to come up with original techniques for him. Also, it seems he can eat planets, right? I expected to get just a bit of Unicron/Galactus vibes from him... Nope (does he even appear eating a planet? I can't tell if it did).

Unfortunately I continue to just skim this saga when a chapter is released just to get an idea of what's going on so I don't miss a potential interesting thing (like Dragon Ball Online's Yadorat appearance). It's still very formulaic and too much of the same thing. Hey, at least it's not a tournament so that's definitely something positive going on for it! Things could be worse.

As for Toyotaro that people were discussing in the previous page, he's not bad. Hell, he actually managed to merge Dragon Ball and Yu-Gi-Oh! and came up with something not only different but fun as hell. Clearly the problem is not entirely him, it's what he's dealing with. It's what the so called "main series" needs anyway, something fresh and different.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:55 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 pm
I think they are equally boring (as most of Dragon Ball Super characters are, actually). I gave Moro the benefit of doubt in the beginning since it was said/implied or whatever that he would use magic abilities, which is something you don't see that often in Dragon Ball. Well, here we are... I don't remember seeing him using magic at all. If he were to appear in games right now, the developers would certainly have to come up with original techniques for him. Also, it seems he can eat planets, right? I expected to get just a bit of Unicron/Galactus vibes from him... Nope (does he even appear eating a planet? I can't tell if it did).

Unfortunately I continue to just skim this saga when a chapter is released just to get an idea of what's going on so I don't miss a potential interesting thing (like Dragon Ball Online's Yadorat appearance). It's still very formulaic and too much of the same thing. Hey, at least it's not a tournament so that's definitely something positive going on for it! Things could be worse.

As for Toyotaro that people were discussing in the previous page, he's not bad. Hell, he actually managed to merge Dragon Ball and Yu-Gi-Oh! and came up with something not only different but fun as hell. Clearly the problem is not entirely him, it's what he's dealing with. It's what the so called "main series" needs anyway, something fresh and different.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Moro is anything special as a character either but as I said what I like about him as opposed to Jiren is at least Goku and Vegeta have to come up with something new and think out of the box. They can’t just rely on a power-up to beat him


Well new in the case of Vegeta. Goku is trying to perfect UI. But I like that too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:22 pm

Brojack wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:45 pm
emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:32 am
About a month ago I did a complete re-reading of Toyotaro’s manga, and the Galactic Patrol arc came off as undoubtedly the worst arc. It’s noticeable that this is missing Toriyama’s input.
I don't know if I'd say it was the worst because the flash in a pan Battle of Gods saga was a waste of time but compared to say the Goku Black Saga it's a big step down.

That wasn't great either but it at least has a story to it and the antagonists were interesting. Now we have a paper thin story with a antagonists about as deep as Lord Slug and his minions.

Remember in the original manga how they used to built up antagonists and major fights with anticipation? It was a long time after Frieza was introduced that Goku finally fought him. Same with Cell.

Here, they introduced Moro in Chapter 43 and by chapter 44 they were already fighting him. His character design was pretty decent and unique originally and now he looks generic.

People gave Jiren shit as an antagonist but he was better than Moro.
The Battle of Gods stuff is not even an arc in the manga, it just served as a brief introduction for Beerus, Whis and farmer Goku in the manga and to tie-in the story with Buu as Toriyama wanted.
It’s basically written assuming that people have already seen the movie (in fact they then decided to skip RoF because it would have most likely been the same) so I don’t consider it when talking of the manga’s arcs and consider the movies instead.

I don’t think that Goku and Vegeta fighting Moro so soon is the problem. Recycling the same formula over and over could become boring so at least I liked how this time around they fought the big villain as soon as possible, for a change.
That fight was not even that bad and it introduced Moro as a big threat due to his magic.
Maybe the overall execution could have been a lot better?
Maybe Moro’s one and only gimmick is just not that interesting? So far Moro has beaten Goku and Vegeta only because of that magic and not because he’s better, so we aren’t getting to see a fair fight at all as they always fight weakened. And it doesn’t help how they kept saying that, at full power, they would easily defeat him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brojack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:03 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:22 pm
I don’t think that Goku and Vegeta fighting Moro so soon is the problem. Recycling the same formula over and over could become boring so at least I liked how this time around they fought the big villain as soon as possible, for a change.
It wasn't a change though. Goku fought Beerus as soon as possible, he fought Goku Black as soon as possible and from a present day perspective he and Vegeta fought Broly as soon as possible. In the manga, the Tournament of Power began half way through Chapter 33 and by Chapter 35, Goku was already fighting Jiren.

At this point it would actually be different for there to be build up. Something like what they did with Vegeta, Frieza and Cell back in Z hasn't really been done in Super at all. You may say Frieza and Hit but those were short arcs to begin with.
That fight was not even that bad and it introduced Moro as a big threat due to his magic. Maybe the overall execution could have been a lot better? Maybe Moro’s one and only gimmick is just not that interesting?
It's not interesting because it doesn't even seem like magic at all. They made him out to be some all powerful Wizard which allows the possibility for all manner of different abilities and ways too fight. Basically a Babidi type character if he was as strong as Jiren but no, all it's boiled down to really is that he can absorb energy.

That was already a gimmick of the Androids 19 and 20. I know it's done in a different way but still boils down to the same thing. He absorbs energy to become stronger just like Cell but to a bigger scale.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Personally I think Jiren is a lot worse than Moro. Just a boring overpowered character. There is nothing to him.
Anime Jiren, assuredly.

Manga Jiren is a character I very much like.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:12 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Personally I think Jiren is a lot worse than Moro. Just a boring overpowered character. There is nothing to him.
Yes but Jiren also looked like a phallus which added at least 3 points to his charisma. Still left him with a negative modifier tho
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 pm
As for Toyotaro that people were discussing in the previous page, he's not bad. Hell, he actually managed to merge Dragon Ball and Yu-Gi-Oh! and came up with something not only different but fun as hell. Clearly the problem is not entirely him, it's what he's dealing with. It's what the so called "main series" needs anyway, something fresh and different.
Now that you frame it like this, I'm reminded of a DS9 rumor I heard years ago. Supposedly the director of the Seige of AR-558 wanted the cast to "beam" into the battlefield in a tactical formation. It didn't make sense to him that soldiers would willingly appear in the middle of a shootout standing upright and make themselves a more obvious target. The studio/producers didn't like this because, to them, the image of the captain and his away team beaming onto a planet was iconic and therefor not to be changed.

Dragon Ball seems to be in a similar situation where, what the story needs, is constantly being pulled back by what the series has come to mean and how everyone expects it to stick to its iconography.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:34 pm

TKA wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:56 pm
Personally I think Jiren is a lot worse than Moro. Just a boring overpowered character. There is nothing to him.
Anime Jiren, assuredly.

Manga Jiren is a character I very much like.

Eh I didn’t see much of a difference personally but maybe I’ll change my mind when I reread those chapters in the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:38 pm

Brojack wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:33 pm
You've quoted me three times and replied to me a fourth and not a single time was a question asked. I'm not playing the victim, I'm telling you to stop bothering me especially when the post you're referring to was two days ago and I'd completely forgot about it. Move on.
I'm not one to usually getting involved in these kinds of situations, but you're def playing the victim. He answered a question to you in this thread & you replied in a manner that was pretty condescending & also irrelevant to what he was addressing.

--

I find Moro to be a step-down from Jiren. I do like that he's made fools of Goku & Vegeta & forcing them to rethink their usual approaches to battle, but personality-wise he's just a stereotypical Z villain, w/ none of the charisma that someone like Freeza had. Doesn't help that Toyotarou likes to draw him w/ his mouth gaping wide open.

He's still better than kid Buu, who literally had nothing going on for him, but that isn't saying much.
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 pm
I think they are equally boring (as most of Dragon Ball Super characters are, actually). I gave Moro the benefit of doubt in the beginning since it was said/implied or whatever that he would use magic abilities, which is something you don't see that often in Dragon Ball. Well, here we are... I don't remember seeing him using magic at all. If he were to appear in games right now, the developers would certainly have to come up with original techniques for him. Also, it seems he can eat planets, right? I expected to get just a bit of Unicron/Galactus vibes from him... Nope (does he even appear eating a planet? I can't tell if it did).
His main magic is his absorption. He can also use telekinesis & manipulate the Earth. It may not be 'magic' by fan's standards, but it's still nevertheless considered magic in the series.

He was shown 'eating' an entire planet in his first appearance, the flashback of him fighting against Grand Kaioshin. That is, he absorbed the life out of it & simply ate its energy he collected.
Last edited by Rakurai on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:50 pm

Kid Buu was actually one of my favorite Z villains. Goodness maybe I just have strange taste :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:53 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:50 pm
Kid Buu was actually one of my favorite Z villains. Goodness maybe I just have strange taste :lol:
I find that many fans like him too. But I don't see anything personality-wise or plot-wise that puts him over Moro. Maybe his design is appealing, maybe his appearance was just 'badass,' but those are the same reasons why fans like Janemba & I personally don't like Janemba at all.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:03 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:53 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:50 pm
Kid Buu was actually one of my favorite Z villains. Goodness maybe I just have strange taste :lol:
I find that many fans like him too. But I don't see anything personality-wise or plot-wise that puts him over Moro. Maybe his design is appealing, maybe his appearance was just 'badass,' but those are the same reasons why fans like Janemba & I personally don't like Janemba at all.
I like Janemba too and you are right I consider him similar to Kid Buu. But not because they are “bad ass” or their designs. I tend to like villains you can’t reason with or who essentially have no ego. They felt more like a force of nature.

Again for me I like a villain more in how the heroes have to deal with them. And Kid Buu felt completely different than Freeza or Cell.

I am rarely in love with villains for their personality. Goku Black as I mentioned above was an exception. I did find him fun.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:06 pm

Bizarre powers are what keep Moro and Kid Boo above Jiren for me as well as designs. I hope we never sink as low as Jiren ever again and am pretty glad he's become a fandom punching bag.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:40 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:43 am
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:05 pm
Toyotaro isn't great, it's obvious his work is from an up and comer. However, getting rid of him isn't the solution. It's keeping Toriyama in charge of DB. Regardless of the feelings concerning TOEI/Toyotaro. We know the DB product will not be up to par without being bossed by the original author.

With that said, I will trust Toriyama, who chose Toyotaro and even Shintani himself to work on the Broly movie.
Personally, I have the opposite view, to an extent.

I do think Toyo should stick around; he's got talent, for sure. But, I think it's foolish to say Dragon Ball will only be good under Toriyama. It's clear from his storylines for Super that these days, he's lost his spark. The reason Battle Of Gods and Broly were good movies is because talented screenwriters turned Toriyama's incoherent mess of neat ideas into something really solid. Sadly, there's not always been the opportunity for that to adequately happen.
IIRC Toriyama was the one who rewrote BoG's script from TOEI and wrote the entire script of Broly which Nagamine stated they kept intact. Toriyama is the man with the plan for DB. I do not want Potafueer arc levels of fail or GT. Make no mistake, I believe Toyotaro should stay. He has talent but it's obvious he isn't great. I think people's expectations are too high as he is learning and growing in the business.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
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Miracles wrote:
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The Undying wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:13 am


I've given that one some thought. I honestly don't have a clue. Amusingly, Moro's dialogue would suggest it's the materials that matter more to his "ideals" than the underlings themselves. This could lead somewhere interesting.

If there's one thing I have to give to the arc, Moro has become almost infinitely more intriguing as an antagonist than he was initially presented. He's not very different from Piccolo Daimao, but he works towards his ambitions in somewhat elusive ways and has (more recently) posed some fairly unique challenges to the heroes. I'm eager to see where Toyotaro takes him.
Yeah, it seems Moro's objective has only been hinted at. The full story hasn't come out yet. His mystery has kept me intrigued.
So we know he wants a galaxy to freely absorb. Does he plan on using the treasure his minions pillage to let that specific galaxy function economically? Seems like there will be no other societies left once he gets done with his plan.
Are you guys seriously not getting what Moro meant by that???

It was a threat. He basically told them that after he has no more use for them, he will dispose of them (kill them!)

This was after they told Moro they’d make a pretty good team. Moro didn’t like hearing that because he’s an evil, psychopathic killer. So he basically told them that if they wanted to stay alive, they had better stay useful to him. Like a human feeding a lion or bear until they run out of food and get eaten and killed. Moro is no different.
"You will need valuables once my plan is realized."
This suggests they might still be alive even when Moro's plans are fulfilled? What good are treasure to dead people?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brojack » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:44 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:38 pm
He answered a question to you in this thread & you replied in a manner that was pretty condescending & also irrelevant to what he was addressing.
He didn't answer any question of mine. I made the observation that a mod took the opportunity to just sticky his own threads over more relevant ones and he just popped up to say it wasn't true...though that's clearly what happened.

That happened days ago, why are you bringing it up now? Kinda weird that people keep going on about it still.
I find Moro to be a step-down from Jiren. I do like that he's made fools of Goku & Vegeta & forcing them to rethink their usual approaches to battle, but personality-wise he's just a stereotypical Z villain, w/ none of the charisma that someone like Freeza had. Doesn't help that Toyotarou likes to draw him w/ his mouth gaping wide open.

He's still better than kid Buu, who literally had nothing going on for him, but that isn't saying much.
He can't be compared to Kid Buu who was one of several different incarnations of Buu. Kid Buu at least had personality behind him and a good character design. He also wasn't meant to be much of a character, he was basically the last form of a final boss in a video game.

His backstory wasn't exactly interesting but it was different from other villains in the manga before him. Just a monster that wreaked havoc across the Universe and that's all he takes pleasure in. Like DC's Doomsday.

Moro is a pale imitation of elements of Frieza, Cell and Buu wrapped up together. No interesting design, no interesting personality, no interesting motivations, no interesting backstory, no interesting abilities and no originality.

He's the equivalent of a Android 14 or something. A standard throwaway 90's DBZ movie villain.

Hearts is a much better than Moro and that's the sad damn truth. A character from mini fan service episodes is a far better villain than the one from the Dragon Ball Super manga that's been around for over a year in full length chapters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:58 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:03 pm

I like Janemba too and you are right I consider him similar to Kid Buu. But not because they are “bad ass” or their designs. I tend to like villains you can’t reason with or who essentially have no ego. They felt more like a force of nature.

Again for me I like a villain more in how the heroes have to deal with them. And Kid Buu felt completely different than Freeza or Cell.

I am rarely in love with villains for their personality. Goku Black as I mentioned above was an exception. I did find him fun.
Fair enough. I think that's one of the selling points of Kid Buu & Janemba, even if I don't necessarily find it all that endearing.

Ironically, I like Z Broly for similar reasons, his characterization as the legendary SS who loves nothing but pure destruction w/ a sadistic, cruel, toyful personality, & dislike new Broly for reasons that made Z Broly so popular in the 1st place, like the pure-hearted misunderstood crap. :lol:
Brojack wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:44 pm

He can't be compared to Kid Buu who was one of several different incarnations of Buu. Kid Buu at least had personality behind him and a good character design. He also wasn't meant to be much of a character, he was basically the last form of a final boss in a video game.

His backstory wasn't exactly interesting but it was different from other villains in the manga before him. Just a monster that wreaked havoc across the Universe and that's all he takes pleasure in. Like DC's Doomsday.

Moro is a pale imitation of elements of Frieza, Cell and Buu wrapped up together. No interesting design, no interesting personality, no interesting motivations, no interesting backstory, no interesting abilities and no originality.

He's the equivalent of a Android 14 or something. A standard throwaway 90's DBZ movie villain.

Hearts is a much better than Moro and that's the sad damn truth. A character from mini fan service episodes is a far better villain than the one from the Dragon Ball Super manga that's been around for over a year in full length chapters.
Yes you can. You can isolate any character that is supposed to be its own individual character like Kid Buu & judge him.

I think if you dig deep enough, you'll find a lot of villains are pale imitations of one another in DB. Vegeta was a 'pale imitation' of Raditz. Freeza was a 'pale imitation' of King Piccolo. So on & so forth.

And I don't see how Moro is a pale imitation to any of those characters you just mentioned.

Idk how you judge character design & I'm not even gonna bother inquiring further since that's all subjective, but Kid Buu's or whatever Buus for that matter is a design that appeals to me in no way. They are literally blobs that can be shaped to become anything else. I find Moro's design to be infinitely more interesting. His personality far more interesting to me than Buu's. And the way he's interacted w/ other antagonists & teamed up w/ Galactic Patrol prisoners is far more interesting than just wreaking havoc across the universe.

He is above Kid Buu by my standards, but that's not saying much.

Also Hearts is, first & foremost, one of the primary antagonists from the SDBH arcade game, not 'mini fan service episodes.' You are referring to a promo anime, which is meant to promote the arcade game in Japan, the main product. Yes I agree he is more interesting, but the SDBH story as whole is far more interesting than DBS as a whole, having the better premise, better characters, & interesting outcomes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:03 am

None of Toei's movie villains are good or hold even an iota of a candle to any character Toriyama created or wrote. Fuck, I'd even put most video game-original characters over Toei's movie villains. Demigra and Towa (as they are in Xenoverse 1 and 2; I don't pay attention to Heroes, nor do I care about it or what it does) are the best non-Toriyama-written villains in this franchise. They're actual characters and not just a plot device to fill out a movie's runtime.

Even as an 8 year old I found Broly completely uninteresting. "Oh, he's what saiyans are supposed to be" - except we already got that in the canon show any time Goku or Gohan transformed into oozaru. Except we got that when Goku first turned Super Saiyan. Except we got evil saiyans with Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa. Absolutely no redeeming qualities to any of them beyond "Oh, he has nice animation".

Rant over.
Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:34 pm


Eh I didn’t see much of a difference personally but maybe I’ll change my mind when I reread those chapters in the manga.
The differences between the two aren't stark. It's the minor things that the manga does better that all add up over time.

Take their debuts, for example. Jiren debuts like Superman in the manga, saving the day and being separate from his comrades. An intro that has action, dynamism and establishes what Jiren's character arc will be. Anime Jiren is introduced meditating. A pretty lackluster way to introduce a character with some build up to him.

Then, Manga Jiren is coaxed into joining up with his teammates to fight after saying he would never participate in a fight that dooms other universes even if it means saving his. Immediately, this shows the dichotomy of Jiren and the contradiction that shows up again during the climax of the arc: Jiren wants to be a hero and is good, but he's willing to throw that all away for a selfish wish.

I don't remember what the anime does with Jiren there.

Then, the manga shows Jiren actively fighting in the tournament, showing his power isn't that far removed from everyone else's. The manga also establishes that he's pussyfooting and doesn't want to actively fight because he knows every time he knocks someone out, a universe is closer to destruction. Again, conflict. Anime Jiren sits doing nothing; no character growth or character displayed.

As Goku and Hit pick fights with him, Manga Jiren holds back because, again, he doesn't want to be party to universal destruction. This later shows up when he fights Roshi and Roshi dodges his hits: Jiren holds back and adjusts his power based on who he's fighting. Again, because he's in conflict with himself. He wants the wish, but can't reconcile it with universal genocide.

Anime Jiren is stronger than time, or whatever.

He shows Roshi a lot of respect in their interactions after he learns Roshi is Goku's master. We would later learn that Jiren's wish is to bring his master back to life so that he can show him what a strong warrior and good hero he's become. Roshi, in showing up to give Goku advice, did what Jiren wished Gicchin could do.

Anime Jiren, who has no reason to hold back, is toying with Goku for some reason.

Eventually, Manga Jiren finds himself in a spot where he could save his friends and work together as a team, but as has already been established since his intro, he's a loner and leaves them to be eliminated. This is around the time Vermoud tells the audience that Jiren's master had told him Jiren's training was incomplete. Jiren never learned the value of teamwork or trusting others.

Anime Jiren's backstory is some cliched Batman backstory where some evildoer killed his master or whatever. Then he shoots a ki blast at the audience because he's a bad guy or some shit. I dunno.

In the climax of the arc, Jiren is trying his damnedest, but keeps getting outmaneuvered or outfoxed by Goku and Vegeta working together. He's determined to see his master again so he can learn what he lacked, just as Roshi told Goku what Goku lacked. But the dogged determination of a lonely warrior isn't enough to overcome the four Universe 7 opponents working together, and he loses. His character flaw introduced since the first chapter in which he appeared is the flaw that lets them win.

Anime Jiren gets cheered on by his teammates and discovers justice or some shit, then loses to Goku and Frieza working perfectly together in high budget animation that looks MONDO COOL, or some shit.

Manga Jiren then has to face that he failed as a hero and as a warrior. He's prepared for his teammates to think of lowly as him as he thought of them. But they didn't. They embraced him. At his strongest, teamwork defeated him and at his lowest, his team embraced him.

Manga Jiren is a conflicted character who's caught between doing the right thing, or fighting a selfish battle. He doesn't make the choice until the very end, so he spends the arc waffling between the two (not fighting to eliminate others, but not really choosing to abstain from the conflict; not committing to either extreme). Toyotaro also never cheapened by turning him into a villain, or giving him some uber tragic backstory. He's a hero, and that was where all the conflict in his character came from.

Contrast with the anime where they very clearly portray Jiren as a villain at worst, and at best a very antagonistic morally grey character. Anime Jiren just doesn't work, but the differences between him and the manga incarnation are so slight (yet numerous) that I wouldn't judge anyone for lumping them together.
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You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:41 am

I really don't agree with these Moro criticisms. He hasn't done anything except scheme once a chapter lately, but early in the arc, he was just fun to watch. His character acting is unique (his expressions, his posture, the way that he looks around while he's talking to someone, and honestly, I view this as very important for a villain in a visual medium like manga), he's aloof, he's mysterious, he's menacing, he has a completely unique fighting style...not every villain has to be the Joker. Maybe we'll find out more about his past later in the arc, maybe we won't.
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 am
Anyway, comparatively-extremely-old Dragon Ball fan here really loving this arc and its storytelling and its backdrop and its characters, I can at least remotely articulate some of those things I like about it, different people like different things anyway, so please don't assume you have the final word on what is and isn't good.
I feel like we haven't gotten to hear from you as much lately, so this was really cool to read.
TKA wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:03 am
manga Jiren
:clap:
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:42 pm
So, what do you guys think will be of Dai Kai O Shin? I mean, he happened to still be alive after so long, will he just go back to sleep inside of Buu? would that be the smartest, godly thing to do by Shin's standards? is Beerus still linked to him? if that's the case, would Beerus prefer to have the guy kept safe inside of the sleeping fatty? does the guy have any say in this? Mr. Satan would definitely be against it.
I mean, there is a god trapped inside a chewing-gum monster, we always thought he was dead but now we know better, will a deity be left there? Personally, I want him out, but I'm sensing Toyo/Toei/Toriyama will go the safe route and keep everything as it is.

Removing the highest god from Buu (who has been nothing but useless since being spit out of Kid Buu), shouldn't be a problem, pure Buu would be killed with ease by pretty much any main character.
Good question...I wonder if Boo will wake up by the end of the arc. It seems unlikely that Dai Kaioshin will be removed from Boo since Boo's appearance is based on his, and since Boo is around as-is for the EoZ. Regardless, I'd love to see the Dai Kaioshin interacting with Mr. Satan.

--------------------------------------

I ordered that set of figurines based on manga scenes recently, so here's my mini-review. I bought them on PlayAsia, but I believe they're sold out now.

First, I have to say this is a somewhat strange set.

The figure with Goku upper-cutting Jiren has Goku in Omen form for some reason, and it looks awful. I've put that figure away, but I have the rest on my desk.

One of these figures is based on the anime. Thankfully it's from my favorite scene of the anime, but still, I don't know why they did that.

I'm really happy with the Goku Black figure. The aura looks great, and despite being small, I prefer it over the 25 cm figure that references the same panel.

My favorite is Jiren chopping Kame-sen'nin's neck. It's a great scene from the manga, and I never would have expected that they would have made a figure of it. Kame-sen'nin probably has the best face sculpt of the set.

Other than that, the box that they all come in is colorful and cool. I have a few other select scenes that I wish they made a figure of, like Freeza tackling Jiren and Goku simultaneously for the win, but maybe they'll come out with a second series. As a long-time fan of the manga, I was really happy to see these be made at all, and I'm satisfied with them despite not having a preference for "miniature" figures.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:38 am

TKA wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:03 am

Eventually, Manga Jiren finds himself in a spot where he could save his friends and work together as a team, but as has already been established since his intro, he's a loner and leaves them to be eliminated. This is around the time Vermoud tells the audience that Jiren's master had told him Jiren's training was incomplete. Jiren never learned the value of teamwork or trusting others.

Anime Jiren's backstory is some cliched Batman backstory where some evildoer killed his master or whatever. Then he shoots a ki blast at the audience because he's a bad guy or some shit. I dunno.

In the climax of the arc, Jiren is trying his damnedest, but keeps getting outmaneuvered or outfoxed by Goku and Vegeta working together. He's determined to see his master again so he can learn what he lacked, just as Roshi told Goku what Goku lacked. But the dogged determination of a lonely warrior isn't enough to overcome the four Universe 7 opponents working together, and he loses. His character flaw introduced since the first chapter in which he appeared is the flaw that lets them win.

Anime Jiren gets cheered on by his teammates and discovers justice or some shit, then loses to Goku and Frieza working perfectly together in high budget animation that looks MONDO COOL, or some shit.

Manga Jiren then has to face that he failed as a hero and as a warrior. He's prepared for his teammates to think of lowly as him as he thought of them. But they didn't. They embraced him. At his strongest, teamwork defeated him and at his lowest, his team embraced him.
Bolded the parts I’m going to specifically address while leaving the surrounding context surrounding each bolded part.

1) Anime Jiren’s backstory still comes down to him losing any faith he had in putting trust in others, if anything in this version because he tried to do exactly that, and it failed him. People keep putting emphasis on the “parents killed” part to compare him to Batman when the actual important bit of his backstory is those who fought with him and survived the encounter choosing to give up hope and move on from it. Both versions drive home the point that he never learned the real value of putting trust in others. Manga through his master dying before truly being able to teach it to him, Anime through him initially doing it, then forsaking it when it failed him.

2) His character flaw is something that’s clear in both versions, he chooses not to put trust nor true value in his teammates, and it’s something that costs both versions the match (anime Jiren realising it as he’s being eliminated the power and determination Universe 7 showed when they put their trust in one another). The entire point of Toppo motivating Jiren near the end has jack to do with “justice” it had to do with reminding Jiren that even if he believes he isn’t strong enough, they do, and they’re still sticking by him to the end

3) For the last bit of this quoted section, you’re stating it as though that moment only happens in the manga. First, The anime has Toppo and the rest of them thank Jiren even as they’re getting erased, which surprises Jiren since he knows how much contempt he treated them with. Second, after they’re revived in the anime, Jiren and Toppo are having a conversation in regards to the tournament, where Jiren blatantly mentions that he still feels he can’t form connections with anyone because of his past and how he’s been so driven by it. Which in turn is followed by Toppo telling him that he’s wrong, and that Jiren trying to take on the hopes of his entire team in fact formed a true connection between him and the rest of the Pride Troopers.

Don’t really care too much bout the rest, but those were 3 specific points I wanted to address. Namely, because those things practically were in the anime version

Anyways, kinda meh to the chapter, it was cool I guess. Maybe it’ll be better when I eventually reread the entire arc
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:55 am

batistabus wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:41 am
I ordered that set of figurines based on manga scenes recently, so here's my mini-review.
Oh my god. The manga actually has merch now.

What bizarre timeline have we been transported to? :lol:

Would be nice if the video games and maybe even Toei followed suit, were the anime to hypothetically return. I'd also die for a larger figurine of the manga's calmer, less bulky Ultra Instinct design.
Formerly Marlowe89.

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