"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Goku: Can I get a turn, Vegeta?
Vegeta: No, shut up, Kakarot.

Goku in the original run would never.

Oh thank God I'm not the only who noticed this and has been annoyed by it.

Goku turning this pseudo-submissive character in the Super manga, who seems content about taking orders from Vegeta, just feels out of character. If Goku wanted to do something, regardless of what Vegeta felt, he would fucking do it.

Between that and the way Goku is written in a general "aloof" manner when it comes to his relationships... has to be the worst part of Super's manga to me.

And its such a shame he's written like that at times because Toyotaro's characterisation of Goku, outside of the Universal Survival arc, has been very good and serviceable.

[TheSaiyanGod]

- It's just dawned on me... why the fuck is Goku using a spaceship to travel? Goku can teleport from literally different planes of existence all the way back to Earth. Why can't he just teleport to Kaio-sama's planet and then teleport to Earth instantly like he's down so in the past? Ugh. That tells me everything I need to know about how dragged out this arc has felt at times.

Merus took Goku to an uninhabited planet where it was impossible for Moro to reach. Moro's henchmen were able to reach Planet Yardrat, which is outside the jurisdiction of the Galactic Patrol and is so far away that Irico cannot even communicate with HQ. This says a lot about how far Goku is from any known point (New Namek was already far enough away that he needed King Kai's help to get there).

The only one who can feel energies on the other side of the galaxy now is Vegeta because of his training

But Goku can literally teleport to Heaven... an area that is out of the mortal realm of the universe. He's done it so many times it's almost a gag at this point. Are you telling me Goku couldn't do the same thing just because he was an uninhabited planet? No. I don't buy that for a second. Toyotaro just wants you to forget that Goku can teleport to Heaven and then to Earth.

The fact that Goku is able to go to heaven does not mean that he can teleport anywhere in the universe. The Land of the Kaioshins is in the mortal realm and yet Goku was unable to use IT to get there, just as he was unable to go to New Namek without the help of King Kai.

The point is not that the planet is uninhabitable, it is the fact that it is very far from any point that Goku knows. Moro's henchmen were able to reach planets outside the galaxy, but did not find Goku. For Vegeta to be able to feel energies so far away he needed a long training. You may not buy the idea, but there is an explanation

Starting from the Trunks arc in particular you can see him favor Vegeta over Goku. It's Vegeta who only fights Black, it's Vegeta who is giving out orders while Goku sits on the sidelines waiting for his turn/permission like a loyal sidekick. This sort of situation keeps happening, and was on display on New Namek too.

In the manga Goku discovered the weakness of Hit's Time Skip and was able to overcome it using his own power (and unlike the anime, he gave up the fight by being vastly stronger than his enemy). He was also the first to dominate the SSB (and Vegeta trained for an entire year for this on RoSaT, without achieving the same results) and faced Merged Zamasu equally. He was also the only character besides the Gods to use Hakai (something that never happened in the anime). Not to mention the ToP in which Vegeta basically only faced Toppo (and Goku faced all the Pride troopers).

Now, he trained with an angel for 4 months longer than Vegeta. From the way you're talking, it looks like Goku is irrelevant and Vegeta is the protagonist in the manga. I see no problem with Vegeta being favored now in an arc that has focused a lot on him. By the way, Toyotaro has already stated that his favorite character is Goku

[dbzfan7]

The slightly better but still not great Resurrection F retread continues. It's not that much more interesting , but at least we can move on finally.

[Lionel]

I wish we could be given a better idea of just how much everyone improved on a comparative scale. All we can infer about the humans is that they're still weaker than Goten and Trunks thanks to Vegeta's admission of his son's ability to take down Saganbo, the leader of the group -- this is without Moro amplifying his power, mind you.

[RandomGuy96]

Was Toyotaro implying that if those women didn't have power greater than Roshi's, he would've just sexually assaulted them and they'd have been powerless to stop it? So much for responsible usage of martial arts...

Tenshinhan not being able to insult people is so weird to me. That was all his dialogue in his first arc.

Alsol lol @ Gohan going back to jobbing. He's Blue tier now so he can actually be used for that role again.

[Kagari]

In the manga Goku discovered the weakness of Hit's Time Skip and was able to overcome it using his own power (and unlike the anime, he gave up the fight by being vastly stronger than his enemy). He was also the first to dominate the SSB (and Vegeta trained for an entire year for this on RoSaT, without achieving the same results) and faced Merged Zamasu equally. He was also the only character besides the Gods to use Hakai (something that never happened in the anime). Not to mention the ToP in which Vegeta basically only faced Toppo (and Goku faced all the Pride troopers).

Now, he trained with an angel for 4 months longer than Vegeta. From the way you're talking, it looks like Goku is irrelevant and Vegeta is the protagonist in the manga. I see no problem with Vegeta being favored now in an arc that has focused a lot on him. By the way, Toyotaro has already stated that his favorite character is Goku

Toyo may state as such but the overall characterization seems to speak otherwise as noted in my original post. That and the lack of meaningful dynamics between Goku and the antagonists of each arc, as opposed to the anime version, make most of his participation feel like checking off a list.

Was Toyotaro implying that if those women didn't have power greater than Roshi's, he would've just sexually assaulted them and they'd have been powerless to stop it? So much for responsible usage of martial arts...

Tenshinhan not being able to insult people is so weird to me. That was all his dialogue in his first arc.

Alsol lol @ Gohan going back to jobbing. He's Blue tier now so he can actually be used for that role again.

I really wish people would stop throwing around the term 'jobbing' so much. You're forgetting everyone's MVP 17, 18, Piccolo and Jaco also got pushed back there.

[Lord Beerus]

Merus took Goku to an uninhabited planet where it was impossible for Moro to reach. Moro's henchmen were able to reach Planet Yardrat, which is outside the jurisdiction of the Galactic Patrol and is so far away that Irico cannot even communicate with HQ. This says a lot about how far Goku is from any known point (New Namek was already far enough away that he needed King Kai's help to get there).

The only one who can feel energies on the other side of the galaxy now is Vegeta because of his training

But Goku can literally teleport to Heaven... an area that is out of the mortal realm of the universe. He's done it so many times it's almost a gag at this point. Are you telling me Goku couldn't do the same thing just because he was an uninhabited planet? No. I don't buy that for a second. Toyotaro just wants you to forget that Goku can teleport to Heaven and then to Earth.

The fact that Goku is able to go to heaven does not mean that he can teleport anywhere in the universe. The Land of the Kaioshins is in the mortal realm and yet Goku was unable to use IT to get there, just as he was unable to go to New Namek without the help of King Kai.

The point is not that the planet is uninhabitable, it is the fact that it is very far from any point that Goku knows. Moro's henchmen were able to reach planets outside the galaxy, but did not find Goku. For Vegeta to be able to feel energies so far away he needed a long training. You may not buy the idea, but there is an explanation.

Kaio-sama's planet is not in the mortal realm. Kaio-sama and his planet are located in the afterlife because they were blown up by Cell. And we're shown several times in the series that Goku has zero issues travelling to the afterlife. Just teleport to Kaio-sama's planet and then teleport from there to Earth.

The point I'm trying to make is that Goku could have reached Earth wwaaaaaayyyy quicker than he initially did. Hell, Goku arriving to Earth much earlier could served as a great way for him to display how he has perfected Ultra Instinct and majorly trim the runtime of this Resurrection F style battle of supporting cast fighting a bunch no-name grunts that do nothing to move the plot forward or advance their characters.

[xm0c]

Krillin wins with the Kienzan! And the return of Bastard Chiaotzu. Haven't seen him since the 22nd tournament. And he got a win without any help! Amazing stuff there.

I know it's unlikely, but I'm hoping Tien and Yamcha fuse to beat the advisor guy. With Goku dealing with the fused woman and everyone else fighting Saganbo, the Dead Namek Trio are gonna need a miracle to win. Chiaotzu can psychically hold the guy in place with Tien and Yamcha fuse into Tiencha to beat him. I mean if we're not getting Gotenks or Gogeta in this manga outside of cameos, why not at least let this one appear?

And Roshi continues to be a creep. I commented a while back that Roshi was gonna try to sexually assault these girls. And I was right. If there was one change I had to make to this arc (aside from fixing the pacing and making Moro more interesting), it'd be to have Goten and Trunks in Roshi's place. They've missed out on too much.

[JulieYBM]

The fat joke was...not funny. They're never funny. Make jokes for you characters, not of them. Ugh.

I liked the Earthlings' fights. There really isn't any good reason Chaozu can't just be a beast here. Just pull a Mob Psycho 100 with him already. Also, give him more of a personality, like this chapter seems to be implying. There's a massive gag storyline that can be made out of Chaozu becoming mentally more proficient after being constantly humiliated at the Tenka'ichi Budoukai and maturing into a stronger mind.

[emperior]

In a more recent interview for a French magazine he said that lately he started to appreciate more characters like Vegeta implying he’s grown on him and is among his favorites.

Do you have a link to this interview?

https://dragonballsuper-france.fr/drago ... ade-geant/

But really, it’s quite clear that Toyotaro favors Vegeta. Especially in this arc.

[DiscountDabi]

I really don't like the fact that people say "Gohan is Back to Jobbing" just because he is being dominated by a clearly very powerful character.

Heck, if anything this should go to show how strong Moro is if he can give Saganbo power past Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the tap of his fingers. And without his beard growing back like it did last time.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But Goku can literally teleport to Heaven... an area that is out of the mortal realm of the universe. He's done it so many times it's almost a gag at this point. Are you telling me Goku couldn't do the same thing just because he was an uninhabited planet? No. I don't buy that for a second. Toyotaro just wants you to forget that Goku can teleport to Heaven and then to Earth.

The fact that Goku is able to go to heaven does not mean that he can teleport anywhere in the universe. The Land of the Kaioshins is in the mortal realm and yet Goku was unable to use IT to get there, just as he was unable to go to New Namek without the help of King Kai.

The point is not that the planet is uninhabitable, it is the fact that it is very far from any point that Goku knows. Moro's henchmen were able to reach planets outside the galaxy, but did not find Goku. For Vegeta to be able to feel energies so far away he needed a long training. You may not buy the idea, but there is an explanation.

Kaio-sama's planet is not in the mortal realm. Kaio-sama and his planet are located in the afterlife because they were blown up by Cell. And we're shown several times in the series that Goku has zero issues travelling to the afterlife. Just teleport to Kaio-sama's planet and then teleport from there to Earth.

The point I'm trying to make is that Goku could have reached Earth wwaaaaaayyyy quicker than he initially did. Hell, Goku arriving to Earth much earlier could served as a great way for him to display how he has perfected Ultra Instinct and majorly trim the runtime of this Resurrection F style battle of supporting cast fighting a bunch no-name grunts that do nothing to move the plot forward or advance their characters.

Yeah, King Kai / Kaio's planet is located in the Otherworld, but I'm talking about Supreme Kai / Kaioshin's planet, which is located in the mortal realm and even then, Goku alone was not able to use IT to get there. That is, the fact that he is able to go to heaven / otherworld does not mean that he is able to go anywhere in the universe. And from what we've seen in recent chapters, he's probably out of the galaxy where Earth is located, so ... that explains why he can't even use IT to go to Kaio's planet

[Kinokima]

I really don't like the fact that people say "Gohan is Back to Jobbing" just because he is being dominated by a clearly very powerful character.

Heck, if anything this should go to show how strong Moro is if he can give Saganbo power past Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the tap of his fingers. And without his beard growing back like it did last time.

Gohan definitely was not jobbing to anyone. People in this fandom throw that term around like it’s going out of style.

[batistabus]

Vegeta's 'redemption' was solved decades ago though, literally.

Yes, except for when he massacred a village of Namekians and they were never revived. That's dealt with in this arc, among other things.

I have never seen anyone claim such a thing about Broly. Not once.

Edit: I most point out that I am just a big Goku fan, so this also me being biased.

I have seen that point made many times. Goku is my favorite character too.

If you have any interest in the DBS manga, or the behind-the-scenes stuff involving Toyotaro, I'd recommend checking his AF out. It's pretty decent and has several ideas that eventually made their way into Super (like the Super Saiyan God ritual and an evil Kaioshin).

Goku: Can I get a turn, Vegeta?
Vegeta: No, shut up, Kakarot.
Goku in the original run would never.

Oh thank God I;m not the only who noticed this and has been annoyed by it.
Goku turning this pseudo-submissive character in the Super manga, who seems content about taking orders from Vegeta, just feels out of character. If Goku wanted to do something, regardless of what Vegeta felt, he would fucking do it.

Between that and the way Goku is written in a general "aloof" manner when it comes to his relationships... has to be the worst part of Super's manga to me.

What about that interaction is incompatible with these characters?

I'm sorry you feel that way. Goku's always been aloof about his relationships, and that's how Toriyama describes Goku's relationships in interviews, so I don't know why you would expect something different. It's not like Goku never expresses affection in Super, either. It's just downplayed, as it should be.

https://dragonballsuper-france.fr/drago ... ade-geant/

But really, it’s quite clear that Toyotaro favors Vegeta. Especially in this arc.

Thanks for the link. He repeats that Goku is his favorite.

It's clear that Toyotaro likes Vegeta, yes. I don't see how you could dislike that character but be a Dragon Ball fan. As a writer, Vegeta is "extremely useful to have around". He pushes Goku and moves the plot forward.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Vegeta's 'redemption' was solved decades ago though, literally.

Yes, except for when he massacred a village of Namekians and they were never revived. That's dealt with in this arc, among other things.

Vegeta killed a lot of people who were never revived. Actual planets worth. I get people wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke but come on. Vegeta dealt with his baggage in the original run. This isn't anything we haven't already seen and that he hasn't already moved past. As far as a retread this isn't bad but it's nothing new nor essential for the character

I really don't like the fact that people say "Gohan is Back to Jobbing" just because he is being dominated by a clearly very powerful character.

Heck, if anything this should go to show how strong Moro is if he can give Saganbo power past Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the tap of his fingers. And without his beard growing back like it did last time.

Gohan definitely was not jobbing to anyone. People in this fandom throw that term around like it’s going out of style.

It's what jobbing means. Gohan is eating a loss to build up another character and put them over with the audience. That's jobbing.

[batistabus]

Vegeta killed a lot of people who were never revived. Actual planets worth. I get people wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke but come on. Vegeta dealt with his baggage in the original run. This isn't anything we haven't already seen and that he hasn't already moved past. As far as a retread this isn't bad but it's nothing new nor essential for the character

Nothing in Super is essential. All existing characters had their arcs ended decades ago. I'm not claiming this is revolutionary for Vegeta, but we're getting to see him play out interactions in a new way based on where he was left at the end of the original run. It's neither essential nor retread.

I don't understand why you would even say "people wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke". What does that even mean? These are not real people. A fan's self-worth should not be tied to whether their favorite character "gets a W" or "jobs". Super is a story that is meant to entertain and cash in on nostalgia. It checks both boxes for me.

[Block88]

So we’re gonna ignore 17 who everybody in this fanbase overratingly called the MVP of the TOP was also jobbing and taste the floor,along piccolo and 18
Or we’re gonna pretend gohan was the only one jobbing?

[Kagari]

Vegeta's 'redemption' was solved decades ago though, literally.

Yes, except for when he massacred a village of Namekians and they were never revived. That's dealt with in this arc, among other things.

Vegeta killed a lot of people who were never revived. Actual planets worth. I get people wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke but come on. Vegeta dealt with his baggage in the original run. This isn't anything we haven't already seen and that he hasn't already moved past. As far as a retread this isn't bad but it's nothing new nor essential for the character

I really don't like the fact that people say "Gohan is Back to Jobbing" just because he is being dominated by a clearly very powerful character.

Heck, if anything this should go to show how strong Moro is if he can give Saganbo power past Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the tap of his fingers. And without his beard growing back like it did last time.

Gohan definitely was not jobbing to anyone. People in this fandom throw that term around like it’s going out of style.

It's what jobbing means. Gohan is eating a loss to build up another character and put them over with the audience. That's jobbing.

In this situation though it's really not. Gohan, 17, Piccolo, 18 and Jaco all couldn't stop the guy and got slapped for a page. Hardly enough to go around crying about 'jobbing' when we've barely seen the fight. Lest we forget the same guy also punched Goku out of SS3 some chapters back.

So we’re gonna ignore 17 who everybody in this fanbase overratingly called the MVP of the TOP was also jobbing and taste the floor,along piccolo and 18
Or we’re gonna pretend gohan was the only one jobbing?

Shh. You're using logic!

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Nothing in Super is essential. All existing characters had their arcs ended decades ago. I'm not claiming this is revolutionary for Vegeta, but we're getting to see him play out interactions in a new way based on where he was left at the end of the original run. It's neither essential nor retread.

I'm calling it a retread because he already made his peace with who he used to be and who he is now. I get it's fanservice and don't begrudge people enjoying it but, to me, it seemed like people were selling Vegeta's latest arc as something wholly new. That's why I commented what I did.

I don't understand why you would even say "people wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke". What does that even mean? These are not real people. A fan's self-worth should not be tied to whether their favorite character "gets a W" or "jobs". Super is a story that is meant to entertain and cash in on nostalgia. It checks both boxes for me.

Vegeta is easily one of the most popular characters in shonen. So much so that many fans have argued that he should become the series protagonist (and in fact, 90% of Vegeta fanfiction and fanworks have this as a premise. And Vegeta fanfiction already makes up a disproportionate amount of Dragon Ball fan junk). "People wanna give their Vegeta boner a stroke" is just referring that fact. Dragon Ball fans eat up Vegeta stories like someone coming off a month long fast.

And I'm going to have to disagree with your line about favorite characters. While I don't think anyone should tie up their emotional well being to fiction, I think it's worth remembering that this is a shonen series. Characters in action stories have no value besides how powerful they are in relation to others. That's kinda been the case since stories like Astroboy fell out of favor. If a shonen character is weak they are worthless so it's perfectly natural for fans to want to see their favorite characters win.

[Kagari]

Vegeta's 'redemption' was solved decades ago though, literally.

Yes, except for when he massacred a village of Namekians and they were never revived. That's dealt with in this arc, among other things.

I have never seen anyone claim such a thing about Broly. Not once.

Edit: I most point out that I am just a big Goku fan, so this also me being biased.

I have seen that point made many times. Goku is my favorite character too.

If you have any interest in the DBS manga, or the behind-the-scenes stuff involving Toyotaro, I'd recommend checking his AF out. It's pretty decent and has several ideas that eventually made their way into Super (like the Super Saiyan God ritual and an evil Kaioshin).

Oh thank God I;m not the only who noticed this and has been annoyed by it.
Goku turning this pseudo-submissive character in the Super manga, who seems content about taking orders from Vegeta, just feels out of character. If Goku wanted to do something, regardless of what Vegeta felt, he would fucking do it.

Between that and the way Goku is written in a general "aloof" manner when it comes to his relationships... has to be the worst part of Super's manga to me.

What about that interaction is incompatible with these characters?

I'm sorry you feel that way. Goku's always been aloof about his relationships, and that's how Toriyama describes Goku's relationships in interviews, so I don't know why you would expect something different. It's not like Goku never expresses affection in Super, either. It's just downplayed, as it should be.

https://dragonballsuper-france.fr/drago ... ade-geant/

But really, it’s quite clear that Toyotaro favors Vegeta. Especially in this arc.

Thanks for the link. He repeats that Goku is his favorite.

It's clear that Toyotaro likes Vegeta, yes. I don't see how you could dislike that character but be a Dragon Ball fan. As a writer, Vegeta is "extremely useful to have around". He pushes Goku and moves the plot forward.

Again, Vegeta never showed remorse for his past actions, even during his suicide. DB characters just don't carry emotional baggage like that - Vegeta in particular. The whole thing stinks of attempting to fix what isn't broken because the village of people Vegeta killed wasn't addressed in the original run (even though the Namekians obviously would have noticed their people missing when fixing their planet) and an attempt to keep "developing" him while forgetting who Vegeta is as a person to begin.

As for Goku, Toyo absolutely fails to convey Goku's relationship with characters like Gohan - who he specifically has Goku either ignore, not understand or fail to recognize while it's Vegeta constantly pushing for the kid. Contrast this to the anime version, where Goku is supportive of his family in a believable way.