"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Undying
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:47 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:55 pm
You don't know how to respond because you have no idea what you're talking about.
That's a pretty hefty accusation coming from the person who missed the point of my comparison.

At the risk of sounding more flippant than I intend to be: I didn't know how to respond because I don't think you grasp how story structure works. I don't think you going off on some tangent about emotional subtext addresses what I'm saying either.

Let me try this again:

Training montages are a common thing in fiction, and don't automatically preclude main characters from being main characters. The hero isn't constantly going to be involved in the central conflict. Sometimes the hero is either absent from that conflict or in the process of preparing for that conflict, often to facilitate a sense of payoff or development later on.

This applies to Goku, who develops a personal connection with Merus (another main character in the story and supplementary mirror to Moro, who has a stronger connection to Vegeta), trains with Merus to grow in strength while developing an ability that specifically required him to think about the principles of Super Saiyan and go in the opposite direction, and presents the results of his training to an antagonist his previously equally powerful friends struggled against.

This applies to Vegeta, who is given the bulk of character development in the arc and thoughtfully prepares a counter to Moro's abilities. He may very well have more story significance than Goku - that's yet to be determined - but you can have multiple main characters in a specific narrative. You can make these characters more important than the supporting cast by A.) establishing their prominence early on while foreshadowing their roles, and B.) following their journies throughout the story while keeping track of their progress, as this arc plainly does with Goku, Vegeta, Merus, and Moro.

Suggesting that important characters are as insignificant as secondary ones when absent from an ongoing conflict doesn't make one iota of sense, because all four of the main characters have been absent at various times. All four of them are still vital to the plot's progression and themes. All four of them have pushed the story forward, especially prior to the invasion of Earth. All four of them have developed or bonded with another in some significant way.

All four of these characters have carried the story: Vegeta more than Goku at some points, and Goku more than Vegeta at others - particularly right now. To imply even one of them isn't deserving of the limelight is incredibly shortsighted and absurd.
Last edited by The Undying on Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:37 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:42 pm
GT >>>>>> Super

So if you get anything resembling GT's finale you'd better be god damned grateful. Super has been a clusterfuck since day one with increasingly boring characters that wouldn't fly in any other fandom.
in own characters ... is that a joke?
Hit >>> nuova shenron
and he is the best gt character

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:48 am

Does anyone here have a problem with this scene? I've read complaints about it on other websites:

For me, it makes sense. Sometimes Goku's excited, sometimes he's scared (vs Raditz), and sometimes he's both. At this point in his life, I can see why he'd be excited. The original Dragon Ball consists of several major incidents over the course of Goku's life. The events of Super have had so many ridiculous things happening back to back. At the beginning of Super, Goku is bored living a domestic life without a good way to grow as a fighter. By Ch.58, he has expanded his power and horizons more than he thought was possible. It's a dream come true.

After so many recent incredible challenges, he now faces the tactical challenge of a foe who cannot be defeated with traditional means. Goku already had a "things will work out in the end" attitude, but that has proven to be true in the most unlikely ways time and time again.

So, you know what? It will work out, Goku! Go out there and have a blast!!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:19 am

batistabus wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:48 am
Does anyone here have a problem with this scene? I've read complaints about it on other websites:
A bit, but not as much as others have focused on it. Goku was otherwise pretty well written in the chapter. (I have to read it again) so that is more of a choice in facial expression. It's too jovial. In fact you could say modern Goku is in general too jovial.

I feel the need to reiterate that I very much enjoyed the chapter, I think that got lost in the discussion.

I guess the Earth fighters can check at least 73 off the list, since they technically dealt with him on their own.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:38 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:37 am
in own characters ... is that a joke?
Hit >>> nuova shenron
and he is the best gt character
I wasn't saying GT's new characters were better than Super's characters. I was saying Super's new characters wouldn't fly in most other fandoms. Hit and Zamasu had good openings but fell apart towards the end of the arcs they appeared in.

Sorry for not being clearer.
The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:47 pm
That's a pretty hefty accusation coming from the person who missed the point of my comparison.
Look, I'm not trying to be rude here but the way this fandom keeps telling me water is dry is a little trying.

I didn't miss the point of your comparison. I was unmoved by it. Obviously the hero isn't going to be in every scene in a story. Which is why I went into your Luke Skywalker example. In order to keep the lead the lead the narrative has to actually lead back to that character. Once they're divorced from the story (its plot and its themes), they can no longer claim to be the lead. All of Luke's narrative threads lead to confronting Darth Vader and how hopelessly unready he was for that confrontation. All of Goku's plot threads lead back to the previous two arcs and him mastering this new state. That has nothing to do with Moro on any level.

Goku is there for the same reason the rest of cast is there; because it's expected. And that makes him window dressing. He, like Krillin and Yamcha and Tenshinhan, could be doing anything else right now and the story wouldn't be hurt by it. Sales probably would be, as Goku is who most fans want to see, but that's not the story. The most Goku contributes to the actual story, is by being a springboard for Merus. It's quintessetial B-plot stuff.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:40 am

Zamasu55 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 pm
73 and that Shiromekka guy are still around anyway.
I'm hoping they still have fight left to give here. It's the best remaining opportunity for the second-liners to engage somehow.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 am

batistabus wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:48 am
Does anyone here have a problem with this scene? I've read complaints about it on other websites:

For me, it makes sense. Sometimes Goku's excited, sometimes he's scared (vs Raditz), and sometimes he's both. At this point in his life, I can see why he'd be excited. The original Dragon Ball consists of several major incidents over the course of Goku's life. The events of Super have had so many ridiculous things happening back to back. At the beginning of Super, Goku is bored living a domestic life without a good way to grow as a fighter. By Ch.58, he has expanded his power and horizons more than he thought was possible. It's a dream come true.

After so many recent incredible challenges, he now faces the tactical challenge of a foe who cannot be defeated with traditional means. Goku already had a "things will work out in the end" attitude, but that has proven to be true in the most unlikely ways time and time again.

So, you know what? It will work out, Goku! Go out there and have a blast!!
Not at all. He's got an excited yet confident look on his face. He doesn't need to be frowning, worried or terrified beforehand, he is not even near danger. I've seen the comparison with a panel of Goku just about to start fighting Vegeta I think, implying Goku now looks immature, too jovial and like unaware of the stakes I guess? Didn't see any of that when Goku actually faced Moro.

And I totally agree with your thoughts. I'd also say that Goku has been training fucking migatte no gokui with a fucking angel, and he might have it under his belt, at least the version that made Jiren worry, so what's to fear? he's never been closer to the GoDs, at will, like now.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:42 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:38 am
All of Goku's plot threads lead back to the previous two arcs and him mastering this new state. That has nothing to do with Moro on any level.
Right, nothing to do with Moro on "any" level... except for the level where Goku vows to stop Moro with a move he's been training to utilize for several arcs, or the level where both characters have a vested interest in fighting each other, or the level where their ideals on friends/subordinates come into direct conflict, or the level where virtually all of the remaining cast besides Vegeta are invariably placing their hopes on Goku.

Name a single secondary character that fulfills even one of these conditions.

You can't. That's why they're secondary characters.

A plot thread isn't some linear string of tape that glues together the psychologies of hero and villain. Plot threads follow the experiences of the characters, often multiple main characters, continuously working to tie them into the overarching narrative - they are, as I went at length explaining in my previous post, intertwined. Vegeta can have the strongest connection to Moro without precluding that more essential dynamic between all three heroes and the villain. Goku can have the strongest connection to Merus without disqualifying either of them as key players.

The leads are quite clearly the leads, with every major narrative thoroughline involving any of these four characters weaving back into the main storyline by far. Not a single chapter, panel or line of dialogue in the manga has called that into question.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:19 am

batistabus wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:48 am
Does anyone here have a problem with this scene? I've read complaints about it on other websites:
The only problem I had with it was that it was another moment of this weird little thing Toyo has been doing a lot this arc where the characters react like Z and stuff never happened for the sake of hyping up Toyo's new stuff. Like, they have Goku and Co having these huge shocked and amazed reaction to stuff they've seen before like it's new. Krillin shouldn't need to ask if Goku's excited or not, it's Goku. Of course, he's excited.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:52 pm

I'm sick and tired of Gohan and Piccolo teaming up. Fuck Piccolo man :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm

What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:49 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm
What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.
Have the Artificial Humans attack from afar with ki blasts at varying tempos so as to keep Saganbo's mind busy having to shift back and forth between tempos he isn't used to. This will mentally fatigue him. From there, Gohan and Piccolo can bide their time for the moments that Saganbo's footing is off and then strike him hard. If the Muten Roushi is available, have him use hypnosis to put Saganbo to sleep. Hell, have him and Tenshinhan do a combined Bikkuri Shou to keep Saganbo paralyzed so that the others can strike him hard and fast. With all that voltage hitting his brain Saganbo's motor skills will likely collapse, which will make it easier for him to fall from physical attacks, too. Have Chaozu throw some sort of new illusion technique at Saganbo, too.

Have those combinations take out Saganbo and then reveal that they won't work on Moro because he paid attention to how they work. From there, Moro can deliver a crushing morale blow: "If I hadn't seen all those techniques I would have definitely lost! But now I know your skills and you're all too fatigued as it is!" The key to building tension here is to actually make it seem like the protagonists were a simple hair from winning. This way, Moro could potentially be defeated but simply happened to not be defeated.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:36 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:52 pm
I'm sick and tired of Gohan and Piccolo teaming up. Fuck Piccolo man :lol:
Nah I wouldn't say that I love Piccolo but man I am tired of them being teamed up now. It's reached to be almost as boring as the Goku and Vegeta team up with how many times they keep glueing them together. Like the latter it was very cool but now it's become overplayed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:44 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:52 pm
Fuck Piccolo man :lol:
That sounds like fun but I don't think Piccolo is into sex
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm
What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside?
Loads if this were just about any other shonen series. And in those series like Dragon Ball where teamwork never works there's usually a much smaller cast and the solutions to problems aren't so obvious.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Psajdak » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:26 pm

Imagine how much Yamcha is fodder now, if we already entered era where Gohan, 17, and 18 are fodders themselves.

Piccolo...
I'm not even sure what to think about him at this point.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:19 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm
What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:32 pm

You know what's been bugging me about the second half of this arc so far? The lack of Buu/Grand Kaioshin. So how did this arc start? The Galactic Patrol goes to Mr. Satan's house to retrieve Buu, so that they can get the Grand Kaioshin out of him so that he can help them defeat Moro, because he has the biggest history with Moro. Later on, we see Buu/Grand Kaioshin being a total badass and giving us a great fight with Moro on New Namek. But then, after we get off New Namek, Toyotaro does the same motherfuckin' joke that I am so sick and tired of: Buu falls asleep. For the fourth time! *screams in frustration* :evil: Toriyama, or Toei, or whoever originated this joke: It's. Not. Funny!! It never was, and it never will be. It wasn't funny in Resurrection F, wasn't funny in the Universe 6 Arc, wasn't funny in the Universe Survival Arc, wasn't funny here. Just let this joke go already. Please! I'm so tired of it. And also, why even bother making Buu/Grand Kaioshin such important factor in defeating Moro, only to... *almost gets angry again, but then calms down* you know what... and completely push him to way side at the midpoint? *sigh* Oh Poor Buu. What have they done to you, Big Guy? But anyways, speaking of guys, what do you guys think? Do you agree with me? Are you hoping that he makes a comeback in the upcoming chapters?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:37 pm

Kagari wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:19 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm
What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.
The only limitations are the imaginations of the writers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:28 am

I keep thinking that UI Omen (I don't like "Sign", but I think I'll have to convert eventually) becoming a form is our fault.
Most people openly stated that they liked this stage more than the full version, myself included, and now here we are.

I'm curious to see if my prediction of splitting this form in two is just so that Vegeta can have his moment between Goku's first attempt and possible second and final one? I was started to agree that they might actually lead up to Vegeta having the final battle, but now I'm not so sure.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:50 am

Michsi wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:28 am
I'm curious to see if my prediction of splitting this form in two is just so that Vegeta can have his moment between Goku's first attempt and possible second and final one? I was started to agree that they might actually lead up to Vegeta having the final battle, but now I'm not so sure.
This is a good point. I think it can go 2 ways, the first being like you said, Vegeta taking over mid way through, only to lose and that being what pushes Goku into MUI. It could also go another way, Goku gives it his all like he did against Broly but never manages to tap into MUI, leaving the door open for Vegeta to take the win (with help from Merus).

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