"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Undying
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:55 pm
I think this one interaction is being looked into just a bit too much. I think that the scene is very clearly set up as a joke, both tonally and in-universe.
The scene is set up as a joke, but the dialogue itself (on 18's part, at least) isn't quite. 18's reaction to 17's mispronunciation is a mixture of jealousy and aggression, being a larger reference to Kuririn's ex from anime filler in DBZ.

I don't know if I'm just not being clear, but there's a marked difference between tonal intent and character intent. Using serious moods for comedic purposes has been a thing for a long time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:15 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:55 pm
I think this one interaction is being looked into just a bit too much. I think that the scene is very clearly set up as a joke, both tonally and in-universe.
The scene is set up as a joke, but the dialogue itself (on 18's part, at least) isn't quite. 18's reaction to 17's mispronunciation is a mixture of jealousy and aggression, being a larger reference to Kuririn's ex.

I don't know if I'm just not being clear, but there's a marked difference between tonal intent and character intent. Using serious moods for comedic purposes is a thing.
But didn't you say you didn't care if 18 was actually serious about killing 17? Sure, she's a bit aggressive about it but I interpret it that she's just a little peeved at the reminder and is leaning into an over-the-top angry persona to express it, which is really common in real life. Just as an example, I have a good friend who obviously doesn't like hearing about his ex, but he overreacts as a way of diffusing the tension. I'd argue that's what 18 and 17 are trying to do here in their own quirky, alien way. Krillin just doesn't get the "joke".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:02 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:15 pm
But didn't you say you didn't care if 18 was actually serious about killing 17?
Right - my point mostly boils down to how they tended to express themselves in general. I didn't like how their relationship featured this constant shift between two opposite poles of stoicism and overt affection/emotion; it detracts from their portrayal (and uniqueness) as androids, and doesn't feel nearly as consistent or as focused as the manga's approach.

I apologize if that position got lost in some of those smaller rebuttals, but that's the gist. I don't think she was necessarily trying to diffuse any tension, but you can interpret it that way.
Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:14 pm
Did everyone forget that Moro absorb some of Merus' energy? could that come into play during the final battle ?
Merus didn't directly say his energy was able to get absorbed, and it's important to note that he hasn't been entirely truthful about his abilities from the jump. The fact that he's forbidden to fight at all could suggest his hypothetical assistance (narratively at least) to be incredibly valuable, if not outright decisive.

I think the story is likely setting him up to interfere when all hope seems lost. Kinda like Zeno in the Future Trunks arc, except this character was actually crucial to the plot.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:20 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm
Argumentum ad populum.

At least one other poster seems to have understood my overall point. Why can't you?
and you were the one who used another user's argument instead of using your own arguments so ...

I get it ... and I also disagree because you are comparing 2 totally different situations ... there is no drastic change in tone in their relationship ... you just take seriously a scene that pretends to be funny a lousy argument and it's like taking roshi scenes seriously and saying it's sexual harassment
The Undying wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm
You know, it might be important to actually clarify whether you're talking about the character joking or the scene being a gag, since you seem to be conflating two completely different things and consistently flip-flopping between each one.

I'll go ahead and address both:

"It's just a joke, bro!" isn't a good argument because 18 wasn't joking. She may not have seriously intended to commit fratricide, but the tone of her (over)reaction was pretty openly aggressive. It was enough to make her husband of several years feel nervous. Her response to 17 is a hostile one; something the timing, context, and camera work are all excruciatingly clear about. That's what I'm referring to.

"It's just a gag, bro!" isn't a good argument because gags obviously needn't impede on whether characters are in-character. Also, it seems to be a common misconception that gags can't be representative of what actually happened in a given story - a notion that Dragon Ball has plainly disproven since day one of its publication. This isn't something like "Arale breaks the planet", it's just flavor text and it's everywhere in the original manga, the Super manga, and a multitude of other shonen franchises. It still happened.

Whether 18 technically meant to kill 17 is irrelevant. I don't care about technicalities. What you appear to be doing is downplaying her combative attitude with her brother in order to shift the argument and dodge my point, since my actual point is more concerned with 18's disposition rather than whatever her specific intent was. That's a strawman. Don't do that.
I refer to what I said above ..
the scene is a joke and it is to refer to the ex-girlfriend of krillin making the situation much more comfortable is the joke why can you not understand a joke that simple ...
Image
I give you an example you have vegeta changing the bra / bura diapers in the manga because bulma forced him to do it and that is against his personality ... but it is a joke it is not destined to be more than that ... and cannot be used for argument because it is not a "serious" situation
The Undying wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm
Bart and Lisa are children. 17 and 18 are grown ass adults.

I really shouldn't have to explain the difference.
and when they show bart and lisa adults in some episodes their interactions do not change because despite the passing of the years the siblings are still siblings an easy message to understand is no different here especially now that they both have "family"
The Undying wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm
They have a mutual understanding, but they're not attached at the hip. That's the extent of their "humanization".

Exactly as it should be: 17 and 18 are cyborgs, not humans. They were never portrayed as humans, so it doesn't make sense to give them exceedingly more human characteristics than they've been shown to exhibit for the better part of two story arcs. That's completely antithetical to how Toriyama intended them to stand out from the rest of the cast. They're dry, cold, sometimes callous, and often emotionally aloof. They're just not overly affectionate people.

If you want "humanization", you have a large variety of other characters in Dragon Ball to regularly fulfill that role. Most of them do, in fact. You don't need to demand homogeneity out of the cast because you're not personally satisfied with artificial humans acting like artificial humans..
If that were the case, it would not make sense that they had formed a family. Firstly, being so distant from human emotions, it is supposed that they should have developed some change, but it seems that they learned nothing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kiyoharu » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:40 am

batistabus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm
Does anyone know of any other moments where the DBS anime refers to anime filler? As far as I know, the DBS manga only refers to it when Goku mentions Mt. Paozu.
Bulma's reaction when Ginyu changes bodies with Tagoma.
The scene is a reference to the filler where Ginyu changes bodies with her.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 am

Kiyoharu wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:40 am
batistabus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm
Does anyone know of any other moments where the DBS anime refers to anime filler? As far as I know, the DBS manga only refers to it when Goku mentions Mt. Paozu.
Bulma's reaction when Ginyu changes bodies with Tagoma.
The scene is a reference to the filler where Ginyu changes bodies with her.
Was that in Toriyama's RoF movie or TOEI's adaptation of it?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 am

Miracles wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 am
Kiyoharu wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:40 am
batistabus wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm
Does anyone know of any other moments where the DBS anime refers to anime filler? As far as I know, the DBS manga only refers to it when Goku mentions Mt. Paozu.
Bulma's reaction when Ginyu changes bodies with Tagoma.
The scene is a reference to the filler where Ginyu changes bodies with her.
Was that in Toriyama's RoF movie or TOEI's adaptation of it?
I think it's from TOEI's adaptation, since I don't remember Goten and Trunks being in the original movie
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:55 am

Do we have any new spine art? Because I recall there was a yellow bar appearing that looked like it came from the Kinto'un.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:45 am

Miracles wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 am
Was that in Toriyama's RoF movie or TOEI's adaptation of it?
Toei's retelling only.

Also: Piroshki, Carony, and Miss Pizza make a couple of appearances in the Super anime, all of whom are a part of Mr. Satan's disciple group from Z filler.

Also also: Gregory.
you have vegeta changing the bra / bura diapers in the manga because bulma forced him to do it
Vegeta reluctantly changing his daughter's diapers is entirely in-character, and follows up from his development throughout Super.

The rest is just stuff I've already addressed, so I'm not gonna harp on this point anymore. Circular argumentation is boring.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:41 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:55 am
Do we have any new spine art? Because I recall there was a yellow bar appearing that looked like it came from the Kinto'un.
I was also curious about that yellow bar! I found this on Amazon for Volume 11.
Volume 12 is coming out the beginning of April. It looks like it needs at least two more volumes to complete the image of Dyspo and whoever is flying over him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 pm

Skar wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:41 pm
Xeogran wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:55 am
Do we have any new spine art? Because I recall there was a yellow bar appearing that looked like it came from the Kinto'un.
I was also curious about that yellow bar! I found this on Amazon for Volume 11.
Volume 12 is coming out the beginning of April. It looks like it needs at least two more volumes to complete the image of Dyspo and whoever is flying over him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:37 pm

Do you guys think Moro has more magic up his sleeve? or every magic-related technique of his will come down to eating planets and ki absorption?

And I'm not bashing his magic or anything, I'm just wondering if the whole magic thing is done for and we'll only see the physical side of Moro from now on, or if he might still be saving up something that might counter UI, Vegeta or the hypothetical arrival of Merus?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:03 am

as a tribute it's fine but I'd rather it were vegeta

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:42 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:03 am
as a tribute it's fine but I'd rather it were vegeta

Image
Yeah, when I was reading did note Goku's hand-stand somersault kick in that fight as definitely reminiscent of Vegeta. Perhaps it's a hint that Goku is filling in Geet's usual role this arc for once.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:04 pm

Is this vegeta-esque fighting choreography a straight rip off of the manga panels like other past instances, or is this one truly a tribute? We know how Toyotaro liked to'' take inspiration'' [some would say trace] from the original manga, I hope he isn't resorting to that again. I was just starting to think he was slowly improving
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:04 pm
Is this vegeta-esque fighting choreography a straight rip off of the manga panels like other past instances, or is this one truly a tribute? We know how Toyotaro liked to'' take inspiration'' [some would say trace] from the original manga, I hope he isn't resorting to that again. I was just starting to think he was slowly improving
Going off of the comparison image above, none of the panels are equal to the anime screenshots. Angles are different, attacks are different. I won't say that he didn't take inspiration from the Vegeta vs 19 fight, but it is definitely not tracing. Unless the comparison image itself is faulty, anyway.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:34 am

Alruneia wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 pm
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:04 pm
Is this vegeta-esque fighting choreography a straight rip off of the manga panels like other past instances, or is this one truly a tribute? We know how Toyotaro liked to'' take inspiration'' [some would say trace] from the original manga, I hope he isn't resorting to that again. I was just starting to think he was slowly improving
Going off of the comparison image above, none of the panels are equal to the anime screenshots. Angles are different, attacks are different. I won't say that he didn't take inspiration from the Vegeta vs 19 fight, but it is definitely not tracing. Unless the comparison image itself is faulty, anyway.
You're right, it's not 1:1 with the anime, I'll need to check the og manga too though, just to be sure. But still, even if it's not exactly 100% copied, it still shows somewhat of a lack of imagination when it comes to fighting choreography, which is one of the biggest points made against Toyotaro. I really don't see why he would need to reuse material when unique shots and moves are what makes each fight distinct and memorable. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth when I can recognize when a certain scene has been inspired by a previous one
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:03 am

Last chapter when Kuririn uses the Kienzan, there's also "inspiration" when he used it against Nappa.

Earlier on the manga run I was much more lenient of this homage's, one of them I find excellent: Vegeta using the move he killed Nappa with against Cabba. Now that was an excellent use, it showed the progress of the character in an interesting way.

Now it's just too much too often. I don't know what it says about Toyotaro: lack of imagination, insecurity, editor's influences, whatever it is...; it's detrimental.
I can only sigh when I see them, unlike the Vegeta example, these homage's don't have meaning.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 am

It's interesting to look back and see how often authors recycled material from before. Toyotaro does it a lot but Toriyama shouldn't be exempt from accusation as he's taken shortcuts himself.
I wish Toyotaro/Toriyama would take the time to better exhibit the more complex technical elements of fighting. If Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be "geniuses" in combat then let their fighting styles reflect it. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing more grapple and joint-lock styles get used like Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Hapkido.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 am
It's interesting to look back and see how often authors recycled material from before. Toyotaro does it a lot but Toriyama shouldn't be exempt from accusation as he's taken shortcuts himself.
I wish Toyotaro/Toriyama would take the time to better exhibit the more complex technical elements of fighting. If Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be "geniuses" in combat then let their fighting styles reflect it. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing more grapple and joint-lock styles get used like Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Hapkido.
Those shots from Toriyama aren't as bad as the Toyotaro ones though tbf, he is just reusing similar moves from his own drawings, but changing angles/positions/context in order to make it unique and memorable in its own right [Vegeta kneeing Goku to the stomach is distinctively different than him getting kneed in the... knee by Tenshinhan, and so on] while Toyotaro is using Toriyama's manga as a crutch, often times copying almost 1:1 [Mostly in the beginning, now he seems to have calmed down a little bit], so much that when I see the panel I can't help but sigh and callback to original drawing. Toriyama still took shortcuts, sure, but simply making the character launch the enemy in the air with his kick is different than using impactful moments and shots of the past for much more underwhelming moments

But I agree on them needing to show more of Goku and Vegeta's genius fighting abilities, since so far the only sign of them being stronger is punching people harder.
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