"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Akyon wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:47 am
Just read the chapter.

Goku can't hold Ultra Instinct for long with his stamina... so he's just going to use his stamina to keep activating Ultra Instinct? The stamina that he doesn't have otherwise he could maintain the form?

I'm lost how this makes sense. Have I missed something important here?
I think it's more so a play on Goku's tendency to be reckless when his back is against the wall, almost to the point where he could get himself killed.

Kaioken x4 against Vegeta, Kaioken x20 against Freeza, Trying to max out SS3 against Kid Boo and while it didn't happen in the manga, Kaioken Blue are all moments where Goku through his body on the line if meant he could potentially overwhelm his foe.

Does that mean he's gonna stack kaioken on top of Ultra Instinct? probably not, it just means he's willing to put his body into over drive to make the best of situation. which honestly fits Goku's style of trying to beat the opponent while trying to beat himself at the same time. Pretty cool honestly.

The only bad thing i can say about this arc, is kinda the main issue with Toyo's writing style, which is that the story doesn't really progress until maybe the last 10 or so pages of the chapter, everything else just feels like padding. Kinda odd considering this is a major fight going on. Decent chapter overall though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:02 pm

Akyon wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:47 am
Just read the chapter.

Goku can't hold Ultra Instinct for long with his stamina... so he's just going to use his stamina to keep activating Ultra Instinct? The stamina that he doesn't have otherwise he could maintain the form?

I'm lost how this makes sense. Have I missed something important here?
He needs to conserve stamina in order to maintain UI Omen longer. But to do so, he cannot access his full strength, as it would require more stamina, thus shorten the time he can use UI Omen.
More stamina use=More power=Less time he'll be able to maintain UI omen.
Goku believes he can defeat Moro with his full power, as Moro's plan (according to Goku) is to prolong the fight so Goku will use less power in order to maintain UI omen longer and once his stamina is gone he will defeat him. So Goku will now use more power so as to quickly defeat Moro.
Last edited by Liquir on Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:17 pm

Average chapter. Nothing actually happens, but the action and paneling are enjoyable enough.

I like that the arc in general is (presumably) foreshadowing Vegeta's training to lead into something much more effective than what Goku's doing. This is thematically fitting because Vegeta is the one with a deeper parallel to Moro, and narratively fitting because Vegeta's hunches about what to do next are more inferential and strategic than Goku's intuition-based ones; it makes sense that it's actually Vegeta's mindset, not Goku's, that's better suited to combating Moro's unconventional magic tricks. That doesn't guarantee Vegeta getting the big W, but it's worth pointing out.

Also digging the fact that Omen's speed and air pressure were devised to counteract Moro's techniques. The anime uses these abilities to make the fights look cool, but here, it's an actual plot point. Toyotaro generally excels at making Saiyan transformations feel mechanically distinct and purposeful, even if they don't always succeed against antagonists in the story.

I'm not sure what to make of Moro straight-up grabbing UI Goku. The panels make it seem like goat dude can just circumvent its dodging/blocking with enough brute strength, although the dialogue specifically attributes this to Omen's stamina problems. Jiren also previously managed to grab Goku's leg even with a complete UI, but that was immediately after Whis mentioned it was taking a toll on his body. Are the stamina issues preventing Goku from using his evasion on a consistent basis? It's not clear, but I'd assume that's the case.

Not a fan of that panel where Goku shouts to re-activate UI, especially when every other instance in the manga has him doing it calmly. It's not nearly as bad as episode 130 having him go on an extended rage-fueled outburst in a form that was outright said to be emotionally detached in the previous episode, and it's just one panel, but it still bothered me.

Pacing is back to being unequivocally terrible. If this was anything like the manga's previous arcs, Vegeta would have shown up by the end of the chapter or even midway through. We didn't need over 40 pages to show a glorified warm-up when the chapter ends on exactly the same note it begins. You could ignore this month in its entirety and not really miss anything.
Last edited by The Undying on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 pm

This was maybe twenty pages worth of content spread out over forty-five pages. Toyo-tarou's editor is a hack. He should be telling Toyo-tarou to drop action pages or to at least put story progress between the fighting panels. Toyo-tarou isn't doing that, he's just drawing horrible action panels unceasingly and then not actually progressing the story. Ugh.

Moro is still boring. At least give him a cool ability. Pollen makes it hard to breathe, right? Have Moro create some hard to see super-pollen and fuck up Gokuu's breathing so that he can land decisive and disabling blows on Gokuu.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:47 pm

Thought it was funny how Moro questioned how a lowly lifeform like Goku could use a divine technique. Wouldn't a form like Super Saiyan Blue be enough to show that Goku was already wielding divine powers?

With Moro's line on transcending the Gods, it makes me wonder if he's actually aware of the Hakaishin and above.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:57 pm

The arc’s pace being terrible is not a new thing. This arc is incredibly padded out. It probably won’t even be over by November.

Just accept this fact and realize that it’s not on Toyotaro. His task is to try and make these chapters as interesting and entertaining as he possibly can with the tools he has. Sometimes he does, like this month’s and the last one, sometimes he doesn’t. In my opinion, of course.

He’s still writing someone else’s story, he is not free to do what he likes and the clear contrast between this arc’s pacing and the previous ones is proof that they are buying time.

I am like 100% sure this is being padded out because they have no idea what to do after this arc. If they did, Toyotaro would improve the pacing.
The possibilities for the arc’s slow pacing are various, here are some possible explanations:
1. They will put the manga on hiatus too, so they’re trying to squeeze out as many chapters as possible so that they can sell more copies;
2. They are still brainstorming the next arc, so they are extending the arc until the next story is fully finalized and approved by all the involved parties (most probable one, in my opinion);
3. There will be an anime coming up later this year or in 2020 and they don’t want the manga to get too ahead of it because they will be back to the “Toriyama writes outline and the manga and anime adapt it in their own ways”;
4. There will be a movie set after this arc, written by Toriyama, coming up in 2021 and so they want the arc to end just before the movie hits theaters (highly improbable).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:00 pm

I'm certainly not the biggest enthusiast of the dependency mentality when it comes to Goku for the others. Yes, he's the protagonist and it's inevitable that he'll bear the brunt of the effort but some initiative should be taken for readying themselves in this fight. All of the preceding training was a good step to take but still woefully inadequate. I mean did Moro just confirm that Goku was only using his untransformed strength during the initial waylaying against Saganbo? Talk about trivilisation if so.

Choreographically the others have expressed the reaction best. It's enjoyable and accommodates the autonomous fluidity of Ultra Instinct quite well. My grievance here is that the user should be more neutral expressively as the form isremoving the cognitive side of movement. As well, I'm not all too keen on UI being qualified as yet another form to be propped as another on Goku's already gaudy belt of transformations. Keep it as a technical ability like the Kaioken.

I offered some critique to the degeneration prior to the chapter being released regarding Moro's growing emphasis on basic raw power before as he continued growing younger. The contents of his retaliation itself were more promising than I first thought but in the end he still resorted to what has been the ongoing crux since the beginning. I wish he could have found an alternative way to counter Goku's UI. Come to think of it, his planetary consumption before was AOE. Goku's mobility shouldn't be hindering him from consuming Earth's energy supply, right?

Decent chapter overall but hardly one with subtext that I find appealing personally.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:51 pm

Random and scattered thoughts on Chapter 59:

- Goku using Kiai to attack Moro from a distances was pretty unique.
- Vegeta is still on Planet Yardrat? What!? Why the fuck is he still on the planet!? And considering that he can somehow know what's going on Earth, you'd think he'd start making his way to Earth to confront Moro. Instead, he's still on Planet Yardrat and even though shit could hit the fan at any moment. But I guess we gotta save Vegeta for that traditional dramatic appearance.
- Moro displaying some magic abilities is long past due.
- The image of Goku dodging Moro's lighting and it instead burning one of Moro's cronies to a crisp made a chuckle.
- Some of the panelling of Goku and Moro's fight is confusing. Like, some of the transitioning from scene to another feels incomplete.
- More kicks and air punches...
- Oh look... a cameo from Beerus. And surprise, surprise... it's food related. *sigh*
- Meerus and Whis overlook how Goku is doing. And you know, with the reveal of Meerus being is a trainee Angel, what universe is going to be placed in? Does this mean Angels can be replaced? Or are Angels killed? Or do Angels die of old age? Or are they going to find a new universe for him? How does this Angel system work?
- So Goku never mastered Ultra Instinct? Well... that makes Goku's training with Meerus practically worthless. You'd think that with Goku reaching the end goal with Ultra Instinct that naturally the next logical step for the character would be be to master that power. Much Goku mastering Super Saiyan in following the arc where he attained it. But instead of making progress with Ultra Instinct, Goku has essentially hit a brick wall... despite the fact he ploughed through that brick wall in the Tournament Of Power against Jiren. How the fuck did Goku manage to go backwards in terms of his abilities? Goku may as well have trained by himself or with anyone else and the results would have been the same.
- I really don't like Ultra Instinct turning into Super Saiyan Blue 2.0, right down to Goku powering up into the form instead to calming and emptying his mind.
- The pacing continues to be terrible. I hate bringing this so often, but fucking hell, this arc just drags its heels at the worst possible situation. That ridiculous cameo from Vegeta on Planet Yardrat is so indicative of how much this arc is DESPERATELY stalling for time.

In conclusion... nothing happened.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:06 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:51 pm
- Vegeta is still on Planet Yardrat? What!? Why the fuck is he still on the planet!? And considering that he can somehow know what's going on Earth, you'd think he'd start making his way to Earth to confront Moro. Instead, he's still on Planet Yardrat and even though shit could hit the fan at any moment. But I guess we gotta save Vegeta for that traditional dramatic appearance.
I wonder if there's a chance Vegeta won't fight Moro at all, and instead he's being saved for a Vegeta focused Sadal arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:11 pm

I am pretty sure that Toyotaro copied parts of Kefla vs Goku UI .....

in short the fight was very good the only complaint I have is that it was not very original to be the battle final

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:47 pm

Didn't really care for the chapter. UI omen Goku and Moro just stalled each other. Moro knowing Goku can't maintain that form long due to stamina drain and Goku hoping he can maintain UI sign long enough while avoiding Moro's absorption. Now both are just going to go full throttle next chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 pm

"It's finally starting for real... the fate of the Earth--no, the fate of the entire universe is riding on this fight."

That kinda sums up this chapter.

We're told how important and monumental this moment is, even though it's effectively the same thing that has been happening since they were on New Namek at the start.

This is all the cliches of Dragonball action. "No, I was just holding back." "I see. Well I too was holding back." etc.

This chapter was pushed as important, but nothing important or different actually happened. Let's see if in coming chapters they can play with the whole stamina thing to create a unique sequence of events. Hopefully that is the case.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:44 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 pm
"It's finally starting for real... the fate of the Earth--no, the fate of the entire universe is riding on this fight."
That line is nearly identical to what Vegeta said at the start of Goku's fight with Kid Buu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:05 pm

I'm wondering, did Moro absorb some of Goku's power or just bear hug him out of Omen?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:19 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:06 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:51 pm
- Vegeta is still on Planet Yardrat? What!? Why the fuck is he still on the planet!? And considering that he can somehow know what's going on Earth, you'd think he'd start making his way to Earth to confront Moro. Instead, he's still on Planet Yardrat and even though shit could hit the fan at any moment. But I guess we gotta save Vegeta for that traditional dramatic appearance.
I wonder if there's a chance Vegeta won't fight Moro at all, and instead he's being saved for a Vegeta focused Sadal arc.
In the last chapter Vegeta appeared he was still trying to learn the move to beat Moro. Even if Vegeta doesn’t know instant transmission still he is on a planet with aliens that do meaning he should have no problem to get to Earth immediately when he is needed


At this point Goku is fighting Moro so he doesn’t need to rush back and can continue last minute training

Yes of course this is all probably for a dramatic entrance but why Vegeta hasn’t arrived yet has been explained.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:31 pm

Geekdom needs to stop posting false information. He has claimed (twice) now in recent videos that Goku and Merus only trained for 3 months. While the exact time they spent in there was SIX months! (6!) Does this guy ever bother to do any research at all? If I’m going to make a claim, I always make sure it’s correct, beforehand. He rarely does. Very unprofessional for someone who claims to act professionally.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:48 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:05 pm
I'm wondering, did Moro absorb some of Goku's power or just bear hug him out of Omen?
He said he won't absorb it, so he didn't, even tho he could have, as he is capable doing it with physical contact as well.
Instead he used the electric looking attack, the one he used back in the flashback against the Grand Supreme Kai (chapter 43) and previously in this chapter (the Kefla scene as some would say).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:51 pm

Liquir wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:05 pm
I'm wondering, did Moro absorb some of Goku's power or just bear hug him out of Omen?
He said he won't absorb it, so he didn't, even tho he could have, as he is capable doing it with physical contact as well.
Instead he used the electric looking attack, the one he used back in the flashback against the Grand Supreme Kai (chapter 43) and previously in this chapter (the Kefla scene as some would say).
Thank you. Moro is still playing with his food.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:28 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:44 pm
TKA wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:10 pm
"It's finally starting for real... the fate of the Earth--no, the fate of the entire universe is riding on this fight."
That line is nearly identical to what Vegeta said at the start of Goku's fight with Kid Buu.
It's a very stock, generic line.

Nobody should use it seriously.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:05 pm
I'm wondering, did Moro absorb some of Goku's power or just bear hug him out of Omen?
Given the context that came immediately after, the sequence of events is:

1. Moro surprised him and grabbed him.

2. Moro then put the squeeze on him.

3. Goku falls out of his transformation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:33 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:28 pm
Given the context that came immediately after, the sequence of events is:

1. Moro surprised him and grabbed him.

2. Moro then put the squeeze on him.

3. Goku falls out of his transformation.
Thanks. You and Liquir got it.

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