"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:35 pm

God the way Toyo draws fight scenes has been unbearably bland since the ToP saga, there's no impact to their strikes, these characters simply don't feel powerful in the slightest.

Piccolo calls it a fight for the "fate of the universe" but the battle between Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd BT felt way more intense than this.

Toyotaro even added another infamous:

Image

To the collection.

I've come to accept we will never see another fight like SSJB Goku vs Fused Zamasu ever again, maybe Toyo has just lost passion or is too stressed. He will almost certainly never hold a candle to peak Toriyama at this rate:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:58 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:35 pm
Piccolo calls it a fight for the "fate of the universe" but the battle between Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd BT felt way more intense than this.
My problem with that line is it feels more than a little redundant at this point. That comment made sense back in the original manga because it was their first brush with bad guys that got off on blowing up planets and solar systems because they thought it was fun.

But now that they've already dealt with two multiversal threats prior to Moro in Super, it just rings shallow. We would obviously expect the universe to be at stake without needing someone to point it out.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:08 pm

In Toriyama's image; You can feel from that punch, that Recoome's dental insurance, won't be able to cover the cost.

Toyotaro is capable tho. When Goku got hit by Toppo, it exhibited that old DB feel. Hopefully now that Moro and Kakarot took the gloves off we get more next chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:10 pm

What I liked about this chapter is that it was an action-packed one. I guess we deserved it after the previous 3 or 4 chapters that could be written off and things would remain the same. While I enjoyed finally seeing a boss fight, some panels were average and nothing really stood out, art-wise, and some needed a second look in order to make sense.
Basically this chapter was Moro being overpowered by Omen, then needing to take him seriously and powering up proving he is superior, with Gohan assuming Goku can go even further but Merus saying Goku actually cannot.

I really hope Vegeta shows up in may or we'll be starting to get closer to the flakiness of the Buu arc, because unless MUI is unlocked, it should be Moro trashing Omen and I think 40 pages of that would be unnecessary and boring. Hell, even 20 pages would still be too much, I just hope chapter 60 aren't 39 pages of Moro wiping the floor with Omen and Vegeta showing up on page 40.


Also, people should stop checking out leaks and jumping to conclusions. The past week I've read stuff that was totally contradicted when I read the full chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:34 pm

Really great action chapter. High speed and high energy with a lot of dynamic angles. Omen is put on display with all of Goku's acrobatic moves. I especially enjoyed the string where Moro pulls Goku toward him, Goku fires back with shockwaves, and then they meet in an intense clash with great expressions (and there are plenty of other great expressions throughout the chapter).

I wasn't totally sure how I felt about Young Moro's design until now, but after this chapter, I'm totally on board. Toyotaro draws him from a lot of different angles this chapter which emphasize the unique aspects of his character design (horns, his goat face, his teeth, and his long body) in interesting ways.

Unlike the anime where Omen is exactly the same as the completed Migatte no Gokui (and some would argue better looking), here, as it was in the manga's Tournament of Power, it's just a taste of what's to come. They way it's described here is like the storm before the calm. There's a very obvious reason Goku should strive for the completed version. I think it's great that MnG can be activated even when the user is damaged and weak. It reinforces that there's more to it than pure power.

On that note, for those who were complaining about Goku "mastering" even the Omen version of MnG already...do you have anything to say? I've said it a million times, but i'll say it again: this is why it's better to reserve harsh judgement until we have all of the information.

I don't really agree with the criticism that the pacing is bad here. This is half of what the arc has been building to. The action flows and the chapter is a breeze to read through. This really is an exciting start to the battle. Most of us are likely much older than we were when we first got into Dragon Ball, and older fans tend to be more interested in character moments than fights. That's totally understandable, and Toriyama would probably agree with you, but he'd also say that Dragon Ball is about "nothing but fighting". Disagree with Toriyama if you want, but Toyotaro is doing the right thing here.

I also don't agree that this is all irrelevant because both fighters are holding back. Moro's holding back because he thinks Goku is beneath him. One could argue it's generic villain territory, but that's how Moro's been portrayed. Goku is "holding back" because he is following through with Merus' plan. We find out that Goku's strategy through the fight (balancing the stamina weakness of Omen) was Merus' idea. Goku has a tendency to screw around (Artificial Humans, SS3 scenario vs Boo, etc.) in high-stakes scenarios, but here, he seems to understand the stakes. He follows through with Merus' plan because he trusts his judgement and he respects him as a master. The style of the strategy is very much in line with Merus' character because it's smart, pragmatic, and honestly, a safe option. Even so, it's not enough to defeat Moro.

When Goku says "Sorry Merus, but a stamina balancing act during battle just isn't my style." (he knows Merus is watching), we know Goku's about to change the strategy next chapter. If playing it safe isn't Goku's style, putting it all on the line in a critical moment is. It was probably Goku's plan all along to try things his way, but the fact that he gave Merus' plan a genuine shot is an interesting character moment and something I haven't seen anyone else discuss yet. Personally, I think this is a really solid Goku moment, and it justifies this chapter outright in my view.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:59 pm

batistabus wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:34 pm
Really great action chapter. High speed and high energy with a lot of dynamic angles. Omen is put on display with all of Goku's acrobatic moves. I especially enjoyed the string where Moro pulls Goku toward him, Goku fires back with shockwaves, and then they meet in an intense clash with great expressions (and there are plenty of other great expressions throughout the chapter).

I wasn't totally sure how I felt about Young Moro's design until now, but after this chapter, I'm totally on board. Toyotaro draws him from a lot of different angles this chapter which emphasize the unique aspects of his character design (horns, his goat face, his teeth, and his long body) in interesting ways.

Unlike the anime where Omen is exactly the same as the completed Migatte no Gokui (and some would argue better looking), here, as it was in the manga's Tournament of Power, it's just a taste of what's to come. They way it's described here is like the storm before the calm. There's a very obvious reason Goku should strive for the completed version. I think it's great that MnG can be activated even when the user is damaged and weak. It reinforces that there's more to it than pure power.

On that note, for those who were complaining about Goku "mastering" even the Omen version of MnG already...do you have anything to say? I've said it a million times, but i'll say it again: this is why it's better to reserve harsh judgement until we have all of the information.

I don't really agree with the criticism that the pacing is bad here. This is half of what the arc has been building to. The action flows and the chapter is a breeze to read through. This really is an exciting start to the battle. Most of us are likely much older than we were when we first got into Dragon Ball, and older fans tend to be more interested in character moments than fights. That's totally understandable, and Toriyama would probably agree with you, but he'd also say that Dragon Ball is about "nothing but fighting". Disagree with Toriyama if you want, but Toyotaro is doing the right thing here.

I also don't agree that this is all irrelevant because both fighters are holding back. Moro's holding back because he thinks Goku is beneath him. One could argue it's generic villain territory, but that's how Moro's been portrayed. Goku is "holding back" because he is following through with Merus' plan. We find out that Goku's strategy through the fight (balancing the stamina weakness of Omen) was Merus' idea. Goku has a tendency to screw around (Artificial Humans, SS3 scenario vs Boo, etc.) in high-stakes scenarios, but here, he seems to understand the stakes. He follows through with Merus' plan because he trusts his judgement and he respects him as a master. The style of the strategy is very much in line with Merus' character because it's smart, pragmatic, and honestly, a safe option. Even so, it's not enough to defeat Moro.

When Goku says "Sorry Merus, but a stamina balancing act during battle just isn't my style." (he knows Merus is watching), we know Goku's about to change the strategy next chapter. If playing it safe isn't Goku's style, putting it all on the line in a critical moment is. It was probably Goku's plan all along to try things his way, but the fact that he gave Merus' plan a genuine shot is an interesting character moment and something I haven't seen anyone else discuss yet. Personally, I think this is a really solid Goku moment, and it justifies this chapter outright in my view.
This. This post was a breath of fresh air compared to all the “whahhh bad art and no plot” posts lol. The chapter was fine but you can’t please everyone. Certainly not in a single chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:47 pm

Torotarou just struggles to convey the movement of his action. It's so stiff and fails to convey motion. When Goku does that spinning kick to Moro it looks like he's spinning away from him and landing, which I think he is, but the next panel is Goku screaming, and then the panel after that he has already kicked him.

It's not good to have to double-take to make sure you're seeing the actions properly in the comic.

Also, the drawing of Goku screaming as Moro held him by the head looked really off.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:38 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:35 pm
God the way Toyo draws fight scenes has been unbearably bland since the ToP saga...
These comparisons are often disingenuous and framed poorly. This one is no different.

Toriyama is one of the greatest mangaka to ever live. Toriyama at his worst is better than most mangaka at their peaks. Toyotaro will likely NEVER match Toriyama in any regard.

Now taking the specific panels that are meant to bridges from one major action panel to the other is just bad faith arguing. Toriyama also used transitional panels where both fighters threw a flurry of attacks at each other.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am

It’s really only this chapter where Toyotaro’s art has been horrendous. Look at how UIO Goku haw been drawn in some panels! Namely when Moro grabs him from behind. Very tiny head and face! Ugly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:39 am

I must have read a different chapter from some people here. Aside from this single drawing (which is not technically bad, but I am not a fan of the hair and fat face), this chapter was amongst the most solid chapters Toyotaro has produced art-wise.
This and this panels were also hard to read, but nothing too bad and the drawings looked great.

There were lots of interesting angles and expressions and the anatomy never looked off, aside from a single instance (the right leg looks wrong). Toyotaro even finally got the roundhouse kick angle right by having Goku twisting his hips (sometimes he draws the upper body stiff, which makes the drawing feel stiff and is also uncorrect technique-wise). And he got it right twice! Hopefully he won’t mess it up anymore in the future.
The whole sequence of Goku and Moro punching each others in the gut was fantastic too.
In general, the choreography was nice especially for what was just a warm-up fillerish fight. Toyotaro may be saving some cooler ideas for what’s coming in the following months.

I really think it’s unfair to criticize Toyotaro’s art this month. Especially if the criticism has to be “look, he’s worse than Toriyama was at his best!”. We all know he’s not Toriyama, it makes no sense to expect that level of output from him. But this month’s was well done, especially compared to what Toyotaro has done in the past.
He’s definitely improving as an artist.
His panelling still needs to be fixed, because there are still some unnecessary panels - but it’s so refreshing to not see all those cluttered pages he used to do before.

The only fair criticism I have read is that this chapter is basically filler, with a warm-up fight which lasted way too much. Almost nothing changed from last month’s, aside from us knowing that Merus is watching Goku and that Goku hasn’t mastered UI and suffers from stamina problems when using Sign. All of this could have been shown in much fewer pages. Even my casual friends who are reading the manga noticed it “it was all fight with no plot progression”.
Also I am not a fan of the Piccolo’s line, but whatever. It’s just a generic line. Even if it’s reused.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:55 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 pm
This was maybe twenty pages worth of content spread out over forty-five pages. Toyo-tarou's editor is a hack. He should be telling Toyo-tarou to drop action pages or to at least put story progress between the fighting panels. Toyo-tarou isn't doing that, he's just drawing horrible action panels unceasingly and then not actually progressing the story. Ugh.

Moro is still boring. At least give him a cool ability. Pollen makes it hard to breathe, right? Have Moro create some hard to see super-pollen and fuck up Gokuu's breathing so that he can land decisive and disabling blows on Gokuu.
This! Moro is boring beyond measure... he is ancient threat like Buu was, but I loved as a kid, how the stakes got higher and higher, Buu changing forms, mixed with some Kaioshin lore... This is just a goat sucking energy and tons of henchmen basically being ToP 2.0.

Also, as I remember Goku comforting Pan after her ice cream falls on ground years after this arc, characters saying: ''Awmygosh, they will destroy the entire Universe!!!'' do not really work.
No interesting techniques in this issue, just some action with no iconic poses... When Toriyama was in charge, every panel was iconic, even the reaction on character faces or simply someone standing, that it is even used in intros and outros of fighting games and everyone recalls the panel from manga or scene from anime just from the look of it... with Toyotaro, reading last chapter was like: Bang, bang, fsshh, fssshh, bloop, DONE - had my portion of something with Dragon Ball and move along. It is just pages overloaded with panels where something happens, but I don't care and don't remember afterwards.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:35 am

All I can say is that this chapter made me laugh out loud when they took out the "I've been holding back this whole time" trope. Like genuinely laughed. It was used so unabashedly and earnestly that I cannot help but think they WANTED us to take note of it as one the most overused tropes in DB history. 'You know it, we know it, here it is again.'

Other than that, a pretty lackluster chapter this time around. Nothing big to write home about for me, be it good or bad.

And yeah, the fate of the universe line from Piccolo felt redundant and far less cooler than I think they wanted it to be. All their fights at this point are about the fate of one universe or another.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:35 pm

This was a very "it is what it is" chapter. I hoped for maybe a bit more plot, but this is a battle manga after all, and what was delivered was solid enough. Most of the fight flowed nicely, there were some coolly framed panels. However, I do wish we could get some more unique choreography with Moro. I agree that Piccolo's commentary felt pretty laughable since the fight really isn't that intense yet.

The chapter needed some proper Z-style brutality if those stakes were to be effectively conveyed, but I guess there's still time. Saganbo's death last chapter was on that level. Why can't we get something like Goku grabbing Moro by the horns and kneeing him in the chin or something? Or Moro just gnawing Goku's shoulder when he had him in that clench (goats have strong jaws, trust me :crazy: ). I mean, characters using their opponent's physical weaknesses is nothing new, remember how often people grabbed Buu's head tentacle?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:17 pm

When it comes to pacing i think Toyotaro is locked into the page count criteria of 45 pages per month, so maybe its easier to pad out fights with generic or unnecessary panels to help meet the quota cuz i'm sure even he would prefer less panels with better narrative pacing than what we already have.

That said, i'm not a fan of how the threat of Moro has changed to fit the situation. In the beginning it was stated to us multiple times that it isnt so much his physical strength thats the problem but his level of sorcery as a warlock that made him dangerous yet we've seen very little of that aside from mass energy absorption and now with this latest chapter he's physically strong enough to contest with the Gods (well so he says). All just because they needed an immediate way for him to pose a challenge to any level of Ultra Instinct? No Bueno, granted i always had a feeling that it'd come to that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:21 pm

I really dislike how UI is used in this chapter. With the way it's conveyed, it feels no different than any transformation. Both the manga and anime have shown the ability to illustrate UI's movement in such a way that it FEELS unique even in the sign stage, that when Goku is dodging you can really see that he's is reacting so fast and with such fluid. This is the technique of the Gods. In this chapter, we have a part where everyone reacts amazed by Goku being able to dodge Moro's blasts, but the way the manga conveys it is 'One panel ki blasts are heading towards him, the next one they are a little closer, then the third one Goku is charging ahead of them with nothing in-between.'. And that goes for the rest of the fight too, this is supposed to be a big showcase of how impressive UI is, but it's conveyed so normally that it doesn't show how fun the technique is.

If you weren't already told Goku was using UI, you wouldn't be able to tell because it's illustrated as the same as any other transformation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:24 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:21 pm
I really dislike how UI is used in this chapter. With the way it's conveyed, it feels no different than any transformation. Both the manga and anime have shown the ability to illustrate UI's movement in such a way that it FEELS unique even in the sign stage, that when Goku is dodging you can really see that he's is reacting so fast and with such fluid. This is the technique of the Gods.
This also happened to SsjG. It was introduced as this unique thing, only to now be just another transformation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:28 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:24 pm
Kanassa wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:21 pm
I really dislike how UI is used in this chapter. With the way it's conveyed, it feels no different than any transformation. Both the manga and anime have shown the ability to illustrate UI's movement in such a way that it FEELS unique even in the sign stage, that when Goku is dodging you can really see that he's is reacting so fast and with such fluid. This is the technique of the Gods.
This also happened to SsjG. It was introduced as this unique thing, only to now be just another transformation.
Was it? Maybe I'm just forgetting, but the only thing that really made SSG unique was that it had healing properties, there was no real different feel to how it's fights were conveyed.... I think. Honestly, it's been long time since I saw Battle of Gods stuff.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:28 pm
Was it? Maybe I'm just forgetting, but the only thing that really made SSG unique was that it had healing properties, there was no real different feel to how it's fights were conveyed.... I think. Honestly, it's been long time since I saw Battle of Gods stuff.
The healing was added in the anime. Apart from that, Goku could only reach it through a ritual, and its power could only be used temporarily. Now though, he and Vegeta can transform into it whenever they want, for however long they want.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:55 pm

I think UI was portrayed well enough in this chapter.
Toyotaro goes for a more “fluid” yet grounded style when portraying it. I wished he could do more of those “slow-mo” stuff he did when Roshi used it and which he probably borrowed from the anime.

Even the anime stopped doing the cool slow-mo stuff though, as episode 130 only used that effect once when Jiren attacked the spectators.

Of course Toyotaro could make UI look cooler, and maybe he will handled the completed form a bit differently in the future to show the difference with Sign. But eventually UI will inevitably end up feeling like a standard form in the fights.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:18 pm

You also have to consider the level of opponent UI is facing. It won't look special if the opponent is on par. Which Moro easily is.
The only thing that separated UI from the rest is that Goku can supposedly avoid absorption with it's ridiculous speed.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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