"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

Spirit has just been revealed to be a thing with minor references to the past (as in Z). What Vegeta learns will improve him as a fighter, but let's not forget his motivation for training on Yardrat in the first place.

Fina a way to defeat Moro. Granted, this new move/power may not compare him to Ultra Instinct, yet as an impact on the enemy it pretty much does. If this new thing defeats Moro, then Ultra Instinct was not the answer against him, despite being the pinnacle of power.


Mastering your Ki is something that Whis tried to teach the Saiyan. Spirit was an entire new world TO Vegeta. So I still believe that Vegeta will get some things for this Arc and this Arc only.

Hopefully he does maintain several abilities and his spirit mastery, but since this was all meant to be used against Moro, it will probably become obsolete, unlike Ultra Instinct, which again is what Goku is aiming for right now, since it was introduced.

The spirit came for this Arc and will probably not play a big role again.

Spirit is not a new concept from Super, since it ties with Ginyu's body change with Goku.
The mastering of one's own Ki comes from the balance between the body and the spirit as explained when Ginyu couldn't even use Goku's full 90.000 units of power, and we already saw that concept being used in Super to justify why Black was able to reach the God forms without any ritual and just through Zenkays (his spirit was Zamatsu's which was a godly being, and with each zenkay power spirit and body became more and more in sync allowing Black to grow stronger).

So in reality it's not a new concept, it's something that wasn't fully explored and that Toyotarou has decided to expand to allow Vegeta an alternative way of getting stronger.

And even if Vegeta just wanted a technique to beat Moro, what he found after arriving at Yadrat was not simply "techniques" but a new concept of training.
Whis mastering of Ki was centered on the mastering of one's movements (making more precise movements), we never see Whis training Goku nor Vegeta in the same way the Yadrats are training him.

And as it's obvious, the UI isn't less of a definitive technique because Goku is clearly not mastering it fully. I don't see a problem in UI Goku > post-Yadrat Vegeta > UIOmen Goku.
And since we know that Vegeta may be able to use healing abilities now (an advanced technique from the spirit training in Yadrat) maybe we still get to see Goku getting a second chance.

We know Goku can reach higher, that he doesn't achive it in the next saga is a plus for me. It will allow for Vegta and him to be neck in neck for a while (at least until the next big bad guy is defeated).

I don't think Vegeta's techniques will become obsolete. Of course, there will be a point where they will be surpassed with brute strenght like we saw when Goku couldn't even defeat Jiren with his instant transmision.
But if Toyotarou writes it well spirit can continue to evolve to help Vegeta not fall much behind Goku. It's still early to criticize Toyotarou for things that are that far ahead and may not even happen.

Regards!

Well yeah it's not that I don't see what you mean but with a big portion of the Fandom questioning how well Toyotaro can write a story (me included for some instances) I feel like the cool concept that Spirit is (even if it has been revealed before) will probably be short-lived.

But hey, I would dig it for some Spirit training for other characters!

[MechaTrunks]

Well yeah it's not that I don't see what you mean but with a big portion of the Fandom questioning how well Toyotaro can write a story (me included for some instances) I feel like the cool concept that Spirit is (even if it has been revealed before) will probably be short-lived.

But hey, I would dig it for some Spirit training for other characters!

Well, in the same way that Mutenroshi achieved near UI movements thanks to his 800 years of experience in fighting and having learned martial arts with a similar concept than what's behind the UI, if Gohan or anyone else decides to go to Yadrat (maybe Piccolo? I think that he is by far the most suited one to this kind of training) he could increase his power a lot as well.
In the same way, I think UI (or nearly UI) is also something that could help the earthlings to become stronger, even if still not comparable to Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan.

I like those concepts being revived and expanded in the way they have been because as the series was so focused in just Ki mastering and Ki potential in Z (the spirit concept was just mentioned once as an excuse to nerf Ginyu and the better movements simply made Goku stronger but had no impact beyond that) the earthlings were forced to be irrelevant, but now everyone can get to a level that allows him to shine without feeling simply too forced.
Krilin at Namek goku levels or even higher is something I would love to see and it's possible through those concepts if Toyotarou does it well.

And since that last chapter of DBS adressed a lot of the problems I had with the writting on this saga (and I always defended the manga's Black saga version as one fo the best DB sagas ever), I still have faith in Toyotarou.

Let's see how this Moro fight develops and what can Vegeta do, but as of now, I like how Toyotarou finds different ways to justify Vegeta being equal to Goku without contradicting what was established in Z and also letting us know that Goku will still be the strongest in the end once he fully masters UI.

Regards!

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta using teleport just once feels like forced fanservice to an extreme.

This is what you're calling extreme ? Of all the pandering and reliance on nostalgia that's been going on post BOG, this is where you draw the line ? This is the same revival that gave us not one, but two Brolies back to back. Vegeta getting a move he'll probably not use for a very long time is extremely small in comparison to the other creative (bankrupt) decisions they've made.

[Kanassa]

Vegeta using teleport just once feels like forced fanservice to an extreme.

This is what you're calling extreme ? Of all the pandering and reliance on nostalgia that's been going on post BOG, this is where you draw the line ? This is the same revival that gave us not one, but two Brolies back to back. Vegeta getting a move he'll probably not use for a very long time is extremely small in comparison to the other creative (bankrupt) decisions they've made.

Not really, Kale was just inspired by Broly and New Broly was an attempt to bring a famous character into canon and develop him into a better character, those aren't creatively bankrupt decisions and they served a purpose beyond just the fanservice aspect. This is literally just having Vegeta learn and use Instant Transmission once no matter how little sense it makes simply for fanservice. Super has a lot of fanservice aspects to moments, but the majority of those moments are more than just fanservice.

[Noitsnothim]

Vegeta using teleport just once feels like forced fanservice to an extreme.

This is what you're calling extreme ? Of all the pandering and reliance on nostalgia that's been going on post BOG, this is where you draw the line ? This is the same revival that gave us not one, but two Brolies back to back. Vegeta getting a move he'll probably not use for a very long time is extremely small in comparison to the other creative (bankrupt) decisions they've made.

Not really, Kale was just inspired by Broly and New Broly was an attempt to bring a famous character into canon and develop him into a better character, those aren't creatively bankrupt decisions and they served a purpose beyond just the fanservice aspect. This is literally just having Vegeta learn and use Instant Transmission once no matter how little sense it makes simply for fanservice. Super has a lot of fanservice aspects to moments, but the majority of those moments are more than just fanservice.

Really don't like the idea of Vegeta having instantaneous movement either It should only be unique to Goku and Goku alone that rule of Yardrats not being able to go to other planets is stupid considering U2 has one living there with no explaination

[Matches Malone]

Kale was just inspired by Broly.

New Broly was an attempt to bring a famous character into canon and develop him into a better character.

Those aren't creatively bankrupt decisions.

They served a purpose beyond just the fanservice aspect.

Just ? they remade some scenes from the original Broly movie using her, and she even acts like him before she controls her powers.

Better ? maybe. Necessary ? no. They could've done just about anything else but instead went with the safest option.

What are they then ? Please don't tell me you find them original.

No they didn't, even the people making them outright said it was due to fan popularity, nothing more.

[pepd]

Vegeta says that he wont use IT in the scans? I thought he was going to use it even more than Goku, specially in combat to compensate speed against UI Goku.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta says that he wont use IT in the scans?

He says his pride won't allow him to use someone else's moves, which is in character for him, as he's too pride to do so. I personally believe he'll use it if the absolutely has to though, just not all the time like Goku does.

[batistabus]

For Vegeta to master an advanced Yardrat technique but be unable to figure out the most basic one would make no sense. Vegeta always seeks a different road to power from Goku. And Just because he says he won't do something, that doesn't mean he won't.

As for the juiced up Omen, the SSB aura flames suggest something else is going on. These leak summaries often leave out critical details.

The chapter comes out in less than 24 hours.

[emperior]

Well Goku always apologizes whenever he steals others’ techniques, like Taiyoken or Hakai, so it seems like stealing a rival’s technique in Dragon Ball is bad manners. Goku has no problems borrowing stuff from Krillin, probably because they are friends and from the same school, but Krillin had no problems when he stole Tenshinan’s technique... so is it a pride thing? Probably.

Therefore, thinking about it, it makes sense for Vegeta to refuse using IT but that should only apply in combat! I really hope that in the future he won’t refuse to use it for travelling purposes if it is absolute necessary.

By the way I see people have complained a lot about Vegeta using IT. Personally, I think it’s cool. It also reinforces, once again, the notion that Goku is not really that talented and his power comes from his experience, hard work and smart training.
Vegeta is naturally more talented, and is also much stronger than Goku was when he first visited Yardrat, therefore it makes sense he was able to learn IT so fast.

[Mister_Popo]

For Vegeta to master an advanced Yardrat technique but be unable to figure out the most basic one would make no sense. Vegeta always seeks a different road to power from Goku. And Just because he says he won't do something, that doesn't mean he won't.

As for the juiced up Omen, the SSB aura flames suggest something else is going on. These leak summaries often leave out critical details.

The chapter comes out in less than 24 hours.

Could Goku be making a comparable mistake here as Trunks did when fighting Cell?
He basically seems to overstress himself, while taking no advances and sacrifying selfmanagement desperately for more power.
If Goku has any role to play further in the battle, it remains to be seen how, he should manage MUI (as the angels already stated, this probably isn't the way, MUI is a state of balance, it shouldn't be adressed by focussing on more strength alone, as it causes an imbalance, and because of this stress the form cannot be maintained due to stamina issues).
Unless they can somehow weaken Moro ...

[Grand Marshal 1]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's like Power Stressed Perfected Blue.

Wouldn't be surprised if Killin said "He is doing the Kaio Ken thing again!" (despite Power Stressed PSSB not being the KK in the first place). We'll see. I'm kinda hyped. Last chap was good, but this seems like is going to have plenty of action and exposition for the story (hopefully).

[Kanassa]

Kale was just inspired by Broly.

New Broly was an attempt to bring a famous character into canon and develop him into a better character.

Those aren't creatively bankrupt decisions.

They served a purpose beyond just the fanservice aspect.

Just ? they remade some scenes from the original Broly movie using her, and she even acts like him before she controls her powers.

Better ? maybe. Necessary ? no. They could've done just about anything else but instead went with the safest option.

What are they then ? Please don't tell me you find them original.

Yes, and she was her own character outside of having some references to Broly. If she was just Broly references and nothing more, then she'd be just fanservice.

Nothing is necessary. And the safest option would have been to just throw in Broly and do nothing with him. Just because you don't like nor can see past it's source material doesn't make it 'safe'.

They're decisions that smartly reuse previous ideas in an interesting way?

[Mister_Popo]

Kale was just inspired by Broly.

New Broly was an attempt to bring a famous character into canon and develop him into a better character.

Those aren't creatively bankrupt decisions.

They served a purpose beyond just the fanservice aspect.

Just ? they remade some scenes from the original Broly movie using her, and she even acts like him before she controls her powers.

Better ? maybe. Necessary ? no. They could've done just about anything else but instead went with the safest option.

What are they then ? Please don't tell me you find them original.

Yes, and she was her own character outside of having some references to Broly.

To be honest with you, i do think, if the story would zoom back to U6, it would create more opportunities in story telling than what we have now. Because the characters feel more unexplored. And yes, i kinda like Kale, Caulifla and Cabba, i do think they offer more opportunities besides selling toys.
This in comparison to the other characters (Z-fighters) besides Goku and Vegeta that seem way too much established by the franchise as 'the fodder' before Goku and Vegeta come.
I am kinda disappointed how they are used in the Moro arc, even during TOP anime i felt their typical characters were more prominent.
Heck, even good old Master Roshi got his horny moment. Where are those typical character traits now? They barely seem to exist.

I wait with my conclusion about the Moro arc till the end. But yes, the franchise tend to disappoint me on the creative side with the latest chapters (after New Namek). The premise of the arc was ok. But now it's kinda boring and all about fighting. Next chapter probably as well, and it won't end there. The fight will go on till the end, i presume, within six months time? During TOP i tended to forgive this because it was a tournament after all, but here in this arc there should be better story opportunities besides fighting.

If you take the original manga by Toriyama, there were regular fights yes and it's about martial arts, but those were way shorter and there was a balance with other story aspects. It wasn't all about the fighting. I am kinda missing that balance in the Moro arc and in Super in general right now.

[Matches Malone]

I wait with my conclusion about the Moro arc till the end. But yes, The franchise tend to disappoint me on the creative side with the latest chapters (after New Namek).

Everything after BOG disappointed me in one way or another. RF and Broly brought nothing new to the table. RF and Black had god awful endings. Both U6 and TOP were boring and just a waste of time. So far the Moro arc has been a massive breath of fresh air for me, as its done everything I've wanted to see after BOG, I just hope that won't be wasted with a bad ending. I currently think Moro is taking the franchise in the right direction, but if they somehow managed to screw up the ending, then this will be the 6th arc in a row that somehow managed to fall flat on its face.

[Mister_Popo]

I wait with my conclusion about the Moro arc till the end. But yes, The franchise tend to disappoint me on the creative side with the latest chapters (after New Namek).

Everything after BOG disappointed me in one way or another. RF and Broly brought nothing new to the table. RF and Black had god awful endings. Both U6 and TOP were boring and just a waste of time. So far the Moro arc has been a massive breath of fresh air for me, as its done everything I've wanted to see after BOG, I just hope that won't be wasted with a bad ending. I currently think Moro is taking the franchise in the right direction, but if they somehow managed to screw up the ending, then this will be the 6th arc in a row that somehow managed to fall flat on its face.

You are right talking about the premise, but thereafter, after New Namek what story telling do have we got besides fighting?
If your opinion is, the Moro arc is a savior, in which aspects you see this savior after they left New Namek?

[Matches Malone]

If your opinion is, the Moro arc is a savior, in which aspects you see this savior after they left New Namek?

The pacing slowed down a bit, but the arc overall has done a good job at keeping things interesting.

1- Completely new villain with new powers.

2- Goku and Vegeta doing their own thing instead of chasing each other in circles.

3- Vegeta's development.

4- Buu doing something other than falling asleep, and maybe doing even more after Vegeta's fight.

5- Merus and the twist with him.

6- A new form not being the solution to victory, but rather a technique (for now at least).

7- 7-3 being a very interesting ace in the hole for Moro later on.

8- Although it hasn't happened, I think Vegeta's fight and technique will be satisfying and worth the wait.

What I'm worried about is how 7-3 will play into the ending, as he's clearly being saved for that. Whatever comes after Vegeta's fight will make or break this arc. So far things have been focused on Vegeta, so hopefully they don't abruptly remove him from the battle in favor of "subverting expectations".

[Mad Swami]

If your opinion is, the Moro arc is a savior, in which aspects you see this savior after they left New Namek?

The pacing slowed down a bit, but the arc overall has done a good job at keeping things interesting.

1- Completely new villain with new powers.

2- Goku and Vegeta doing their own thing instead of chasing each other in circles.

3- Vegeta's development.

4- Buu doing something other than falling asleep, and maybe doing even more after Vegeta's fight.

5- Merus and the twist with him.

6- A new form not being the solution to victory, but rather a technique (for now at least).

7- 7-3 being a very interesting ace in the hole for Moro later on.

8- Although it hasn't happened, I think Vegeta's fight and technique will be satisfying and worth the wait.

What I'm worried about is how 7-3 will play into the ending, as he's clearly being saved for that. Whatever comes after Vegeta's fight will make or break this arc. So far things have been focused on Vegeta, so hopefully they don't abruptly remove him from the battle in favor of "subverting expectations".

Absolutely agree. Moro arc is so refreshing and is the strongest thing to come from Super. IMO it's better than the Broly movie.

[Matches Malone]

Absolutely agree. Moro arc is so refreshing and is the strongest thing to come from Super. IMO it's better than the Broly movie.

By far. It's such a shame Broly's great production value was wasted on a remake and not something completely new.

[Mister_Popo]

If your opinion is, the Moro arc is a savior, in which aspects you see this savior after they left New Namek?

The pacing slowed down a bit, but the arc overall has done a good job at keeping things interesting.

1- Completely new villain with new powers.

What new powers? Moro is more like a powerhouse now in stead of an original villain with magical powers.

2- Goku and Vegeta doing their own thing instead of chasing each other in circles.

They are both improving and doing their training at the same time, from which we could deducate Vegeta will come right after Goku. Ain't that a little bit predictable? Is that really as such a progress in storytelling?

3- Vegeta's development.

Yes ... But that hasn't been exactly proven till the end of the arc if he is exactly above Goku, if that what's is what you are pointing to.

4- Buu doing something other than falling asleep, and maybe doing even more after Vegeta's fight.

After New Namek, and that was my main point, the Grand Kaioshin hasn't showed anything, despite he IS making up the beginning and the premise of this arc and therefore is an essential character for this arc.

5- Merus and the twist with him.

At this point, there has been no twist with Merus whatsoever. He has been sitting on his ass and taking straight orders from Whis and the Grand Priest for the latest chapters.

6- A new form not being the solution to victory, but rather a technique (for now at least).

It's not exactly the case since Vegeta has still become enormously stronger, although he has no new form (yet), what is extra original about that, since we can already deducate his progress his immense from the first chapter he has shown us that on Yardrat?

7- 7-3 being a very interesting ace in the hole for Moro later on.

Yes, but has it been proven the writer(s) are effectively going to do something intresting with him at this point?
I hope so, but where are you getting this from it's a certainty? I am only referring to what is, not what might become.