"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

Kinda funny how people were popping off about "Goku screaming in UI" when A.) the dialogue straight up says he's not using it correctly, and B.) it's an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct from the start. He's doing it wrong, but that's the whole point. We need to stop making premature observations about chapters based on out-of-context spoilers.

The actual problem, though, is that this stuff isn't interesting. The previous chapter had some semblance of strategy going on, but the fight we're presented with here is just a straight brawl. Moro saying "Aha! Is that all you've got?" is more of the same back-and-forth from last month, not to mention it's a regurgitated theme from the previous arc where Goku tries to approach a problem with pure power when the actual solution is much less straightforward.

Vegeta using IT is whatever. Kinda fanservicey, but at least it's not fanservice that actively interferes with the plot. It's also more foreshadowing for the idea that Vegeta is better equipped to handle Moro than Goku, having a better inclination for picking up the kind of unconventional moves they'll need to counter him.

I'd hoped for another Beerus gag, if only to spite the people constantly complaining about him. Oh well. Maybe next time.

Pacing's still slow, but at least it actually exists this month. Another fairly average chapter overall.

[ShaggyBlanco]

The way the fight went Ultra Instinct seemed more like a Kaioken x100 then what it was during the ToP but I guess Goku was just using it wrong
I was hoping for Moro to win by using some of his magic or something instead of just being flat out too strong for Goku
I really wish Goku tried Hakai again

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

So I only have one question with this chapter. I truly enjoyed it btw.

Whis says that the long cycle of Creation and Destruction are a natural thing in the universe. Agreed. That's what we have known since the Kais and Supreme Kais were introduced.

The only ones capable of intervening in matters of creation and destruction are Beerus and Daikaioshin (who made a small appearance and is apparently a big guy, yet he has been absorbed within Buu for years). So it's natural for Angels to not involve themselves given their role.

But why not help Earth? This leaves a plothole. It's not about the Earth itself. It's about the only freaking planet with capable warriors to take out Moro. Is Moro's destruction a 'natural' cause? This is kind of a cheap excuse. When he kills everyone will he stop destroying planets to get stronger? What if his lust for power takes him to other universes? What if Beerus isn't able to defeat him by that point? Does it have to reach that point for his lazy cat ass to take action?

When we know that the Grand Supreme Kai immediately tried to stop Moro via Buu when he escaped the Prison. Isn't Beerus being to apathetic?

Not saying for him to come and Hakai Moro, but I believe that he should show some more interest. Perhaps he enjoys the destruction that Moro causes, but I don't think that it benefits his Universe's mortal numbers or level or whatever. A reason for which Zeno would have erased U7.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I don't get what the hell Whis is talking about. What Moro is doing is not natural, he's fucking raiding planets and eating their populations. This is someone Beerus should be dealing with, but NOPE! Lets just have Goku and Vegeta busting their asses off once again to deal with GoD threats. Earth is literally the only place with decent fighters and if they fall, everyone is fucked because no one else in Universe 7 can fight Moro since Beerus won't get off his ass.

This is clearly a bs excuse to keep Beerus from intervening, even when its dumb as hell for Moro to be allowed to cause destruction that is literally fucking over entire populations. This is not natural, Moro is a monster, he will not stop until everything is destroyed. By the time Moro is done, everyone is dead and Universe 7 would make Universe 9 look a fucking paradise. What the hell do you think Universe 7 will look like if Moro isn't killed? Universe 9 will look stellar in comparison. What the fuck would it take for Beerus to give a damn about his Universe? If someone literally eating his universe won't make him care, what will?

Does someone need to destroy his favorite food? Is that what we need? Or does he need someone capable of killing him or his other GoD for him to care?

Moro no doubt plans of traveling to other universes and doing the same to them, gathering subordinates and repeating the process until everything is lifeless and hellish. This is dumb as fuck seeing I don't understand how Moro killing entire populations is benefiting Universe 7. Universe 7 has a horrible mortal level and Moro has no doubt fucked over entire planets in his travels.

Maybe Whis lied about that part to try to ease Merus a bit, because I doubt Whis views what Moro's doing as natural. He probably doesn't like Moro either and simply wants to dissuade Merus from feeling anything personal in the fight. Whis is trying to keep Merus out of the fight, he might just be trying to sway Merus into remaining neutral for the sake of his promise to the Grand Priest.

His universe was just in danger not that long ago, what the hell is Beerus thinking? I don't even understand how Universe 7 benefits from Moro's existence. Moro is literally a malicious psychopathic version of Galactus, who gains anything from allowing him to exist? He's literally a threat to everyone's survival.

[Mister_Popo]

Kinda funny how people were popping off about "Goku screaming in UI" when A.) the dialogue straight up says he's not using it correctly, and B.) it's an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct from the start. He's doing it wrong, but that's the whole point. We need to stop making premature observations about chapters based on out-of-context spoilers.

Goku should know by now how the form actually works.
Being able to power up like being in SSJ3 doesn't make much sense, as one should loose UI right away in that case.

[TysonWine]

I didn't want Vegeta to learn instant transmission, as I preferred it to be Goku exclusive. The further away Goku and Vegeta get in terms of powerups and techniques the better IMO. Doesn't make it good or bad, it's just my preference. That being said, the writing around it was disappointing and nonsensical. I have my biases like anyone else, but I refrain from calling any idea a bad idea just because it's not my idea. If a writer goes in the opposite direction of what I want, that's fine, but they have to commit to it. If you don't commit to it, you end up with writing that's obviously contrived, and hard to take seriously.

From the get go, Yardrat was a callback that didn't need to happen. Vegeta, the man amongst the Z-fighters who has spent the most time traveling the universe couldn't think of anywhere else to go. Vegeta (not Goku, the person who's actually been there) randomly decided to go to Yardrat because they might have a technique that could help against Moro. What do you know, it turns out they do. Vegeta learns said technique and asks to be teleported to Earth. The Yardrats (Yardrations?) have a law that forbids them from using instant transmission to other planets. As contrived as that is, it actually works, because now Vegeta HAS to learn I.T regardless of how he feels about it. Regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it, it's now necessary. Suddenly, the Yardrat says "This is an emergency, so I'll get you to earth." Vegeta says no, I got this.

Vegeta didn't go from one city to another or one country to another. He went from one planet to another. For all intents and purposes, it's safe to say he's mastered the technique (in a very short amount of time may I add). He gets to Earth and tells Goku, he doesn't plan on using the technique again AND even if he wanted to, he probably couldn't. Saying he won't use it again, is just Vegeta, no big deal. Saying he can't use it again, is bad writing. The reason I say it's nonsensical is because if Toyotaro didn't want Vegeta to have I.T in his arsenal, the Yardrats could've teleported him to earth. It's just that easy. Going through the "We can't take you, but we will, but now we don't have to" scene was unnecessary and illogical. Unnecessary for the reason I just stated and illogical because it actually does work if the plan was the opposite. If the plan was to have I.T be something Vegeta's going to start doing, if not casually, than at least for emergencies than that's perfect...until he gets to Earth and forgets how to do a technique he just learned 30 seconds ago.

This is what I mean by committing to an idea. If you're going to have Vegeta learn instant transmission, then have him learn it. If not, don't.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So I only have one question with this chapter. I truly enjoyed it btw.

Whis says that the long cycle of Creation and Destruction are a natural thing in the universe. Agreed. That's what we have known since the Kais and Supreme Kais were introduced.

The only ones capable of intervening in matters of creation and destruction are Beerus and Daikaioshin (who made a small appearance and is apparently a big guy, yet he has been absorbed within Buu for years). So it's natural for Angels to not involve themselves given their role.

But why not help Earth? This leaves a plothole. It's not about the Earth itself. It's about the only freaking planet with capable warriors to take out Moro. Is Moro's destruction a 'natural' cause? This is kind of a cheap excuse. When he kills everyone will he stop destroying planets to get stronger? What if his lust for power takes him to other universes? What if Beerus isn't able to defeat him by that point? Does it have to reach that point for his lazy cat ass to take action?

When we know that the Grand Supreme Kai immediately tried to stop Moro via Buu when he escaped the Prison. Isn't Beerus being to apathetic?

Not saying for him to come and Hakai Moro, but I believe that he should show some more interest. Perhaps he enjoys the destruction that Moro causes, but I don't think that it benefits his Universe's mortal numbers or level or whatever. A reason for which Zeno would have erased U7.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I don't get what the hell Whis is talking about. What Moro is doing is not natural, he's fucking raiding planets and eating their populations. This is someone Beerus should be dealing with, but NOPE! Lets just have Goku and Vegeta busting their asses off once again to deal with GoD threats. Earth is literally the only place with decent fighters and if they fall, everyone is fucked because no one else in Universe 7 can fight Moro since Beerus won't get off his ass.

Moro no doubt plans of traveling to other universes and doing the same to them, gathering subordinates and repeating the process until everything is lifeless and hellish. This is dumb as fuck seeing I don't understand how Moro killing entire populations is benefiting Universe 7. Universe 7 has a horrible mortal level and Moro has no doubt fucked over entire planets in his travels.

Maybe Whis lied about that part to try to ease Merus a bit, because I doubt Whis views what Moro's doing as natural. He probably doesn't like Moro either and simply wants to dissuade Merus from feeling anything personal in the fight. Whis is trying to keep Merus out of the fight, he might just be trying to sway Merus into remaining neutral for the sake of his promise to the Grand Priest.

His universe was just in danger not that long ago, what the hell is Beerus thinking? I don't even understand how Universe 7 benefits from Moro's existence. Moro is literally a malicious psychopathic version of Galactus, who gains anything from allowing him to exist? He's literally a threat to everyone's survival.

Yes that makes sense. For Whis to be the mediator, in wanting to protect his brother angel-in-training from getting erased.

So either Beerus is playing along, or he genuinely gives 0 fricks. Like damn, this is truly a psycho galactus. It's not that I want Beerus to get involved, but try to come up with a better excuse smh.

And it's not about me criticizing this chapter without wanting for the next, but Beerus has done nothing in the entire Arc. So I believe it's fair to say that he may not want to get himself involved and let Goku and Vegeta do the heavy lifting.

Even not going to fight but keeping a close eye would probably let Merus feel at ease and not having second thoughts about rushing in to assist against Moro. You know, just for the looks of it.

Unless if this a devious plan from the Grand Priest himself. I know that it's not Canon, but seeing how he saved Goku from the Prison Planet and (possibly trained him a bit?) brought him into the battlefield against the Core Warriors, he may interfere himself.

Like, if Hearts was a big deal for traveling across the multiverse, I think Moro gets a pass for being a threat to other universes (it did happen with Zamasu tbh).

[Omgzord]

Goku was consistently screaming and powering up while in UI Omen. I fail to see why people keep saying stuff like "Toyotarou doesn't understand the principle of this form of this form" when Toei was the very first to butcher the form concept. Goku was consistently speaking, screaming, powering up while in UI throughout his whole fight with Jiren but somehow Toyotarou is the one who doesn't understand the DB lore.

Like the user above me said, Toyotarou's problem is not lack of knowledge, but how underwhelming most of his fights are and how he lacks any sense of creativity. Moro was introduced as a fresh take on DB Villians by relying on Magic and Hax to outplay the protagonist despite them being miles ahead of him at the time. Which lead to some interesting character development especially on Vegeta's side who always viewed magic as low tricks and a waste of time. He even went out of his way to call his previous training "stupid".

Fast forward 10 chapters later and it's obvious that Toyotarou doesn't know what to do with Moro anymore. He powered him up to the point that he could throw punches with UI Omen Goku "which likely as strong as he Silver hair from the ToP" and instead of making Moro absorb his power and trick him he just made Moro "really strong" and now he can just throw firsts. It was a problem from very early on when Goku said that he had to learn "UI" to defeat Moro. Which didn't make a lot of sense, something pointed out by a lot of fans early on, what is UI supposed to do against Moro? It doesn't counter Moro's magic in any form it's just a power that amps his agility the most.

Toyotarou even reconned that Moro can absorb Ki passively within an AoE format, now Moro of all sudden needs to LOCK-ON to absorb magic and can't do it if Goku is moving fast. Like, what sort of logic is that? He then goes out of his way and writes that Moro ONLY absorbs magic to fill his stomach and not to power up, despite it being his primary fighting style on Namek.

You can tell that Toyotarou didn't know how to write around Moro's magic and Haxx ability and just reduced him to "Goat who can speak with big muscles "

[The Undying]

Goku should know by now how the form actually works.

Not really. He's barely used it, doesn't know how to tap into its complete state, and his training with Merus demonstrably wasn't as long as it should have been.

There's zero indication in the manga that he can't power up after activating it. The issue is that relying on brute strength isn't an effective way of using the form.

This all makes sense from an in-universe perspective.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

So I only have one question with this chapter. I truly enjoyed it btw.

Whis says that the long cycle of Creation and Destruction are a natural thing in the universe. Agreed. That's what we have known since the Kais and Supreme Kais were introduced.

The only ones capable of intervening in matters of creation and destruction are Beerus and Daikaioshin (who made a small appearance and is apparently a big guy, yet he has been absorbed within Buu for years). So it's natural for Angels to not involve themselves given their role.

But why not help Earth? This leaves a plothole. It's not about the Earth itself. It's about the only freaking planet with capable warriors to take out Moro. Is Moro's destruction a 'natural' cause? This is kind of a cheap excuse. When he kills everyone will he stop destroying planets to get stronger? What if his lust for power takes him to other universes? What if Beerus isn't able to defeat him by that point? Does it have to reach that point for his lazy cat ass to take action?

When we know that the Grand Supreme Kai immediately tried to stop Moro via Buu when he escaped the Prison. Isn't Beerus being to apathetic?

Not saying for him to come and Hakai Moro, but I believe that he should show some more interest. Perhaps he enjoys the destruction that Moro causes, but I don't think that it benefits his Universe's mortal numbers or level or whatever. A reason for which Zeno would have erased U7.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I don't get what the hell Whis is talking about. What Moro is doing is not natural, he's fucking raiding planets and eating their populations. This is someone Beerus should be dealing with, but NOPE! Lets just have Goku and Vegeta busting their asses off once again to deal with GoD threats. Earth is literally the only place with decent fighters and if they fall, everyone is fucked because no one else in Universe 7 can fight Moro since Beerus won't get off his ass.

Moro no doubt plans of traveling to other universes and doing the same to them, gathering subordinates and repeating the process until everything is lifeless and hellish. This is dumb as fuck seeing I don't understand how Moro killing entire populations is benefiting Universe 7. Universe 7 has a horrible mortal level and Moro has no doubt fucked over entire planets in his travels.

Maybe Whis lied about that part to try to ease Merus a bit, because I doubt Whis views what Moro's doing as natural. He probably doesn't like Moro either and simply wants to dissuade Merus from feeling anything personal in the fight. Whis is trying to keep Merus out of the fight, he might just be trying to sway Merus into remaining neutral for the sake of his promise to the Grand Priest.

His universe was just in danger not that long ago, what the hell is Beerus thinking? I don't even understand how Universe 7 benefits from Moro's existence. Moro is literally a malicious psychopathic version of Galactus, who gains anything from allowing him to exist? He's literally a threat to everyone's survival.

Yes that makes sense. For Whis to be the mediator, in wanting to protect his brother angel-in-training from getting erased.

So either Beerus is playing along, or he genuinely gives 0 fricks. Like damn, this is truly a psycho galactus. It's not that I want Beerus to get involved, but try to come up with a better excuse smh.

And it's not about me criticizing this chapter without wanting for the next, but Beerus has done nothing in the entire Arc. So I believe it's fair to say that he may not want to get himself involved and let Goku and Vegeta do the heavy lifting.

Even not going to fight but keeping a close eye would probably let Merus feel at ease and not having second thoughts about rushing in to assist against Moro. You know, just for the looks of it.

Unless if this a devious plan from the Grand Priest himself. I know that it's not Canon, but seeing how he saved Goku from the Prison Planet and (possibly trained him a bit?) brought him into the battlefield against the Core Warriors, he may interfere himself.

Like, if Hearts was a big deal for traveling across the multiverse, I think Moro gets a pass for being a threat to other universes (it did happen with Zamasu tbh).

This is Beerus were talking about. 9/10 times, he just doesn't given a honest fuck. Beerus is an asshole, this is just them playing the biggest flaws with Beerus's character, even when its DUMB as hell given the goat galactus running around. He's just being lazy and they use this 'natural' nonsense to justify inaction.

Whis is trying to keep Merus alive. He's doing hurdles trying to keep Merus alive and he's not going back on it. He's trying to distract Merus by closing tabs as he's hoping that they can avoid the angel law conversation. I feel like when Merus feels the need to intervene, Whis standing over his shoulder is going to be a problem.

I feel like the Grand Priest will keep to himself unless either Merus or Whis interfere directly. He's likely looking his staff just in case or can sense the nonsense going on. I know its unlikely for Whis, but I feel like Whis won't allow Merus to interfere and I'd rather they go for the unpredictable route for this arc.

I mean with Zamasu, he kinda went to another timeline and killed everyone. Now I think everyone is a bit more cautious with people jumping through universes, especially after the Zamasu became crazy and nearly killed everyone thing in Trunk's timeline. Beerus would probably only care if he heard Moro going after his life link or something.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yeah, I don't get what the hell Whis is talking about. What Moro is doing is not natural, he's fucking raiding planets and eating their populations. This is someone Beerus should be dealing with, but NOPE! Lets just have Goku and Vegeta busting their asses off once again to deal with GoD threats. Earth is literally the only place with decent fighters and if they fall, everyone is fucked because no one else in Universe 7 can fight Moro since Beerus won't get off his ass.

Moro no doubt plans of traveling to other universes and doing the same to them, gathering subordinates and repeating the process until everything is lifeless and hellish. This is dumb as fuck seeing I don't understand how Moro killing entire populations is benefiting Universe 7. Universe 7 has a horrible mortal level and Moro has no doubt fucked over entire planets in his travels.

Maybe Whis lied about that part to try to ease Merus a bit, because I doubt Whis views what Moro's doing as natural. He probably doesn't like Moro either and simply wants to dissuade Merus from feeling anything personal in the fight. Whis is trying to keep Merus out of the fight, he might just be trying to sway Merus into remaining neutral for the sake of his promise to the Grand Priest.

His universe was just in danger not that long ago, what the hell is Beerus thinking? I don't even understand how Universe 7 benefits from Moro's existence. Moro is literally a malicious psychopathic version of Galactus, who gains anything from allowing him to exist? He's literally a threat to everyone's survival.

Yes that makes sense. For Whis to be the mediator, in wanting to protect his brother angel-in-training from getting erased.

So either Beerus is playing along, or he genuinely gives 0 fricks. Like damn, this is truly a psycho galactus. It's not that I want Beerus to get involved, but try to come up with a better excuse smh.

And it's not about me criticizing this chapter without wanting for the next, but Beerus has done nothing in the entire Arc. So I believe it's fair to say that he may not want to get himself involved and let Goku and Vegeta do the heavy lifting.

Even not going to fight but keeping a close eye would probably let Merus feel at ease and not having second thoughts about rushing in to assist against Moro. You know, just for the looks of it.

Unless if this a devious plan from the Grand Priest himself. I know that it's not Canon, but seeing how he saved Goku from the Prison Planet and (possibly trained him a bit?) brought him into the battlefield against the Core Warriors, he may interfere himself.

Like, if Hearts was a big deal for traveling across the multiverse, I think Moro gets a pass for being a threat to other universes (it did happen with Zamasu tbh).

This is Beerus were talking about. 9/10 times, he just doesn't given a honest fuck. Beerus is an asshole, this is just them playing the biggest flaws with Beerus's character, even when its DUMB as hell given the goat galactus running around. He's just being lazy and they use this 'natural' nonsense to justify inaction.

Whis is trying to keep Merus alive. He's doing hurdles trying to keep Merus alive and he's not going back on it. He's trying to distract Merus by closing tabs as he's hoping that they can avoid the angel law conversation. I feel like when Merus feels the need to intervene, Whis standing over his shoulder is going to be a problem.

I feel like the Grand Priest will keep to himself unless either Merus or Whis interfere directly. He's likely looking his staff just in case or can sense the nonsense going on. I know its unlikely for Whis, but I feel like Whis won't allow Merus to interfere and I'd rather they go for the unpredictable route for this arc.

I mean with Zamasu, he kinda went to another timeline and killed everyone. Now I think everyone is a bit more cautious with people jumping through universes, especially after the Zamasu became crazy and nearly killed everyone thing in Trunk's timeline. Beerus would probably only care if he heard Moro going after his life link or something.

Which to be honest he kinda did. What if Moro getting pushed back by Buu/Daikaioshin made him realize that as long as the gods are around he can't do his shit and went straight to the Sacred World to kill the other Kais? That would make Beerus shit his pants (although it's up to debate whether the Grand Supreme Kai would have to die as well).

Yes, given Zamasu's actions, I think everyone is very laid back. Zamasu showed that if you want you can take out every God and rule the universe, without Zeno giving an F either (it is weird though that the Future/Alternate universes GP didn't stand forth).

Which is why I mostly compared Moro to Hearts. Dude goes around destroying shit, with Power to threaten gods. I think Moro has been underestimated by the gods.

And even if Beerus did observe the fight closely, have some other reason for him not joining. Like, have Moro take the Supreme Kai captive or something dunno (again Hearts did do this iirc). So Beerus won't interfere and we can truly feel the tension of this fight. It's not that we can't see Moro being dangerous, it's more like his potential has been downplayed. The dude is already entering GoD tiers of power in his powered up Prime.

[Michsi]

So, this chapter was...alright, I guess. I don't like the idea of Vegeta having IT at all, but oh well.

This new technique of his might make or break the final stretch of the arc for me. I'm really curious what it could be, because:
1- if it's lame and underwhelming, well, that's obviously bad, but on the flips side-
2 -if it goes overboard and aims to be fanboy-pandering cool, that's also bad.

[Mister_Popo]

Goku should know by now how the form actually works.

Not really. He's barely used it, doesn't know how to tap into its complete state, and his training with Merus demonstrably wasn't as long as it should have been.

There's zero indication in the manga that he can't power up after activating it. The issue is that relying on brute strength isn't an effective way of using the form.

This all makes sense from an in-universe perspective.

I didn't mean he knows the form well enough to master it.
But he can apparently use Omen for a longer period than during TOP.
He knows 'the basics'.
Then he should know a powerup like Broly does it, will not do to the trick in that state.
Or when he does try it, he should revert to base right away.

[Matches Malone]

There's no way Vegeta will finish this alone. Merus doesn't seem convinced by Whis' words and I doubt Goku will remain in the sidelines.

I think Vegeta will finish the actual fight on his own, but who kills Moro is still up in the air. Merus seems the most likely, but Goku and even Buu can still get involved and help Vegeta do it.

Merus being the key to beat Moro is one of the main possibilities.

Here's a twist, the reason Beerus is ignoring him is because he was the previous destroyer of U7, and that Merus was his angles. If 7-3 helps him against Vegeta, Beerus getting involved to put his predecessor down can be very interesting.

I doubt Vegeta will kill Moro, somehow Moro will have some ancient magic nonsense that he's never used and through the power of writing he will get the upper hand and whip Vegeta after Vegeta uses his special power.Or Vegeta will get cocky and leaves and opening for 7-3 to latch onto him and fuck things up in Moro's favor.

I don't mind 7-3 helping, but Moro getting the upper hand on his own won't be a good decision, as it'll make all of Vegeta's build up be for nothing.

I also wonder if it wouldn’t be underwhelming to end it with 73 sort of becoming the last boss. Ideally Merus should intervene to defeat Moro, not a counterpart.

Realistically speaking, I think Merus taking care of Moro is more likely. The thing is, by the time it happens, fans will have been predicting it for over a year. For over six months now, the general prediction by fans was that whoever fight first will lose (Goku), whoever arrives second will win the fight (Vegeta), and something will go wrong, resulting in Merus either killing or sealing Moro away, which in itself will result in Merus being erased. It's by no means a bad ending, as Vegeta will have gotten his real victory against a main villain, and Merus will have shown that angles are capable of showing compassion, I just don't know how I'd feel about getting an ending I knew was coming for a year before it actually happened.

I'd hoped for another Beerus gag, if only to spite the people constantly complaining about him. Oh well. Maybe next time.

I think the reason Beerus has been so hands off is because he has history with Moro.

[The Undying]

I didn't mean he knows the form well enough to master it.

But see, that's irrelevant. He doesn't know the form well at all.

The Tournament of Power already made it clear that he hadn't mastered it even after his transition into the silver haired version, so there's no concrete connection between its true state and mastering it per se.

Having access to the real Ultra Instinct should be what entails whether he actually has a firm grasp on this technique. The fact that he transformed into its incomplete state two chapters ago should have told you something was off.

[TheNingen]

Goku was consistently screaming and powering up while in UI Omen. I fail to see why people keep saying stuff like "Toyotarou doesn't understand the principle of this form of this form" when Toei was the very first to butcher the form concept. Goku was consistently speaking, screaming, powering up while in UI throughout his whole fight with Jiren but somehow Toyotarou is the one who doesn't understand the DB lore.

Like the user above me said, Toyotarou's problem is not lack of knowledge, but how underwhelming most of his fights are and how he lacks any sense of creativity. Moro was introduced as a fresh take on DB Villians by relying on Magic and Hax to outplay the protagonist despite them being miles ahead of him at the time. Which lead to some interesting character development especially on Vegeta's side who always viewed magic as low tricks and a waste of time. He even went out of his way to call his previous training "stupid".

Fast forward 10 chapters later and it's obvious that Toyotarou doesn't know what to do with Moro anymore. He powered him up to the point that he could throw punches with UI Omen Goku "which likely as strong as he Silver hair from the ToP" and instead of making Moro absorb his power and trick him he just made Moro "really strong" and now he can just throw firsts. It was a problem from very early on when Goku said that he had to learn "UI" to defeat Moro. Which didn't make a lot of sense, something pointed out by a lot of fans early on, what is UI supposed to do against Moro? It doesn't counter Moro's magic in any form it's just a power that amps his agility the most.

Toyotarou even reconned that Moro can absorb Ki passively within an AoE format, now Moro of all sudden needs to LOCK-ON to absorb magic and can't do it if Goku is moving fast. Like, what sort of logic is that? He then goes out of his way and writes that Moro ONLY absorbs magic to fill his stomach and not to power up, despite it being his primary fighting style on Namek.

You can tell that Toyotarou didn't know how to write around Moro's magic and Haxx ability and just reduced him to "Goat who can speak with big muscles "

You're just flat out wrong on your point regarding UI. Toei had Omen Goku mainly speaking like what....3 times? And that was during his fight with Kefla. When he uses it in the manga, he's constantly chatting up a storm and being a cocky little shit. Toei stayed true to the principle of absence of thought moreso than Toyo has committed to the idea. And as other users have pointed out, Toyo DOES have issues committing to ideas. Goku in Sign was serious, focused, but at the same time it was clear all of his movements were reactionary and defensive. Whis' monologue during Goku's fight with Jiren before he mastered the form is enough to satisfy that argument. Here Goku has forgotten what he learned from Roshi in the TOP, and is trying to brute force his way through the form, which shouldn't even be how it works to begin with. If he is consciously trying to power himself up through UI in a brute force method, it is no longer UI. It's just SSB or Kaioken.

Also Goku only screamed and powered up as he was breaking through his limits and getting close to the completed power of Ultra Instinct. He wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct, which then kicked Goku's ass as it overwhelmed him. Sorry not sorry, but besides the initial activation of the Sign form, Toei handled the concept and execution of UI and UI sign much better than Toyo has.

[Mister_Popo]

I didn't mean he knows the form well enough to master it.

But see, that's irrelevant. He doesn't know the form well at all.

The Tournament of Power already made it clear that he hadn't mastered it even after his transition into the silver haired version, so there's no concrete connection between its true state and mastering it per se.

Having access to the real Ultra Instinct should be what entails whether he actually has a firm grasp on this technique. The fact that he transformed into its incomplete state two chapters ago should have told you something was off.

That first time when he went UI Omen, he did not show any emotion.
Before that when he beat Sagambo in Blue he was showing it.
That should be an indicator that even the imperfected state we are seeing now works differently in comparison to the classic- and God-forms.
Or that should be the intention. What would otherwise be the difference in state of mind or being in that case, resulting in a different form, in the first place?

[Omgzord]

Goku was consistently screaming and powering up while in UI Omen. I fail to see why people keep saying stuff like "Toyotarou doesn't understand the principle of this form of this form" when Toei was the very first to butcher the form concept. Goku was consistently speaking, screaming, powering up while in UI throughout his whole fight with Jiren but somehow Toyotarou is the one who doesn't understand the DB lore.

Like the user above me said, Toyotarou's problem is not lack of knowledge, but how underwhelming most of his fights are and how he lacks any sense of creativity. Moro was introduced as a fresh take on DB Villians by relying on Magic and Hax to outplay the protagonist despite them being miles ahead of him at the time. Which lead to some interesting character development especially on Vegeta's side who always viewed magic as low tricks and a waste of time. He even went out of his way to call his previous training "stupid".

Fast forward 10 chapters later and it's obvious that Toyotarou doesn't know what to do with Moro anymore. He powered him up to the point that he could throw punches with UI Omen Goku "which likely as strong as he Silver hair from the ToP" and instead of making Moro absorb his power and trick him he just made Moro "really strong" and now he can just throw firsts. It was a problem from very early on when Goku said that he had to learn "UI" to defeat Moro. Which didn't make a lot of sense, something pointed out by a lot of fans early on, what is UI supposed to do against Moro? It doesn't counter Moro's magic in any form it's just a power that amps his agility the most.

Toyotarou even reconned that Moro can absorb Ki passively within an AoE format, now Moro of all sudden needs to LOCK-ON to absorb magic and can't do it if Goku is moving fast. Like, what sort of logic is that? He then goes out of his way and writes that Moro ONLY absorbs magic to fill his stomach and not to power up, despite it being his primary fighting style on Namek.

You can tell that Toyotarou didn't know how to write around Moro's magic and Haxx ability and just reduced him to "Goat who can speak with big muscles "

You're just flat out wrong on your point regarding UI. Toei had Omen Goku mainly speaking like what....3 times? And that was during his fight with Kefla. When he uses it in the manga, he's constantly chatting up a storm and being a cocky little shit. Toei stayed true to the principle of absence of thought moreso than Toyo has committed to the idea. And as other users have pointed out, Toyo DOES have issues committing to ideas. Goku in Sign was serious, focused, but at the same time it was clear all of his movements were reactionary and defensive. Whis' monologue during Goku's fight with Jiren before he mastered the form is enough to satisfy that argument. Here Goku has forgotten what he learned from Roshi in the TOP, and is trying to brute force his way through the form, which shouldn't even be how it works to begin with. If he is consciously trying to power himself up through UI in a brute force method, it is no longer UI. It's just SSB or Kaioken.

Also Goku only screamed and powered up as he was breaking through his limits and getting close to the completed power of Ultra Instinct. He wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct, which then kicked Goku's ass as it overwhelmed him. Sorry not sorry, but besides the initial activation of the Sign form, Toei handled the concept and execution of UI and UI sign much better than Toyo has.

First of all, neither of the 2 images is a direct copy of the idea Toriyama had in mind. Toriyama gives them the concept, and Toei and Toyotarou work with it based on their own vision while trying to stay true to the original idea.

And No.
Goku scream during his first fight with Jiren before landing the final blow
He scream when he powered up against Kefla
He screamed and powered up twice against Jiren during their final match when he was still in Omen.

Also: wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct
Stop spitting headcanon that wasn't shown or stated within the show.

Goku was constantly screaming talking and powering up against Jiren during their rematch and UI is supposed to be the complete form of mastery of self-movement. He wasn't even trying to dodge Jiren anymore he was just overpowering him.

Goku being silent in his Complete UI form actually makes more sense than Goku being chatty after he achieved the silver-haired form despite being much harder to control and maintain

[The Undying]

Before that when he beat Sagambo in Blue he was showing it.

Absolutely not. All these chapters ever show is Goku powering up with a kiai. This isn't like what the anime did where he was screaming (in complete UI, no less) specifically because he was angry.

You're completely misinterpreting how this form works. The whole idea behind Ultra Instinct Sign is precisely that - it's just a sign, it's flawed and incomplete.

[TheNingen]

Goku was consistently screaming and powering up while in UI Omen. I fail to see why people keep saying stuff like "Toyotarou doesn't understand the principle of this form of this form" when Toei was the very first to butcher the form concept. Goku was consistently speaking, screaming, powering up while in UI throughout his whole fight with Jiren but somehow Toyotarou is the one who doesn't understand the DB lore.

Like the user above me said, Toyotarou's problem is not lack of knowledge, but how underwhelming most of his fights are and how he lacks any sense of creativity. Moro was introduced as a fresh take on DB Villians by relying on Magic and Hax to outplay the protagonist despite them being miles ahead of him at the time. Which lead to some interesting character development especially on Vegeta's side who always viewed magic as low tricks and a waste of time. He even went out of his way to call his previous training "stupid".

Fast forward 10 chapters later and it's obvious that Toyotarou doesn't know what to do with Moro anymore. He powered him up to the point that he could throw punches with UI Omen Goku "which likely as strong as he Silver hair from the ToP" and instead of making Moro absorb his power and trick him he just made Moro "really strong" and now he can just throw firsts. It was a problem from very early on when Goku said that he had to learn "UI" to defeat Moro. Which didn't make a lot of sense, something pointed out by a lot of fans early on, what is UI supposed to do against Moro? It doesn't counter Moro's magic in any form it's just a power that amps his agility the most.

Toyotarou even reconned that Moro can absorb Ki passively within an AoE format, now Moro of all sudden needs to LOCK-ON to absorb magic and can't do it if Goku is moving fast. Like, what sort of logic is that? He then goes out of his way and writes that Moro ONLY absorbs magic to fill his stomach and not to power up, despite it being his primary fighting style on Namek.

You can tell that Toyotarou didn't know how to write around Moro's magic and Haxx ability and just reduced him to "Goat who can speak with big muscles "

You're just flat out wrong on your point regarding UI. Toei had Omen Goku mainly speaking like what....3 times? And that was during his fight with Kefla. When he uses it in the manga, he's constantly chatting up a storm and being a cocky little shit. Toei stayed true to the principle of absence of thought moreso than Toyo has committed to the idea. And as other users have pointed out, Toyo DOES have issues committing to ideas. Goku in Sign was serious, focused, but at the same time it was clear all of his movements were reactionary and defensive. Whis' monologue during Goku's fight with Jiren before he mastered the form is enough to satisfy that argument. Here Goku has forgotten what he learned from Roshi in the TOP, and is trying to brute force his way through the form, which shouldn't even be how it works to begin with. If he is consciously trying to power himself up through UI in a brute force method, it is no longer UI. It's just SSB or Kaioken.

Also Goku only screamed and powered up as he was breaking through his limits and getting close to the completed power of Ultra Instinct. He wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct, which then kicked Goku's ass as it overwhelmed him. Sorry not sorry, but besides the initial activation of the Sign form, Toei handled the concept and execution of UI and UI sign much better than Toyo has.

First of all, neither of the 2 images is a direct copy of the idea Toriyama had in mind. Toriyama gives them the concept, and Toei and Toyotarou work with it based on their own vision while trying to stay true to the original idea.

And No.
Goku scream during his first fight with Jiren before landing the final blow
He scream when he powered up against Kefla
He screamed and powered up twice against Jiren during their final match when he was still in Omen.

Also: wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct
Stop spitting headcanon that wasn't shown or stated within the show.

Goku was constantly screaming talking and powering up against Jiren during their rematch and UI is supposed to be the complete form of mastery of self-movement. He wasn't even trying to dodge Jiren anymore he was just overpowering him.

Goku being silent in his Complete UI form actually makes more sense than Goku being chatty after he achieved the silver-haired form despite being much harder to control and maintain

You said he's constantly talking lol. I was pointing out that you're wrong. Because he talks 3 times. And guess what buddy. Screams are instinctual. You know....that word that is part of the name of the technique? It's not a big deal that he screams.

Also, not headcanon. It was stated. Whis' monologue is laughing at you. I'm not going to entertain an argument or debate with you if you can't even begin to pay attention to things that happen in the show while it's going on because you're just arguing in bad faith. You can dislike the execution, I won't take that away from you. And you talking about Goku and Jiren's rematch shows further you have no idea what you're talking about and can't bother paying attention. He WAS dodging Jiren. Did you not see him pulling a Tony Hawk's Pro Skater and grinding on Jiren's energy blasts with his own energy blasts using his feet to dodge them? Did you not see the energy bullets Jiren sent flying towards Goku which Goku dodged? Or any of the punches that Goku dodged? Goku was CONSTANTLY dodging and attacking in the completed UI form. And it was the openings that came from said dodging that led to Goku being able to attack Jiren effectively. It was not just simple overpowering Jiren.

Again, dislike the execution, that's fine, that's a valid argument because that's your opinion and I won't take it away from you. However, everything else you are arguing that has a backing from scenes in the anime and highlight the clear lack of attention that you have demonstrated show me that it's completely pointless having any form of discussion with you. I recommend you go back and watch their battle in the anime and do your due diligence and actually pay attention and watch. Because if you're going to say Goku was just overpowering Jiren and wasn't dodging at all anymore in completed UI? Then you're full of it.

And before you type "yeah but uhh....I said he wasn't TRYING to dodge. Not that he wasn't dodging. Checkmate athiest hur dur headcanon" Right...If someone isn't trying something, it means they're flat out just not doing it. If someone says it looks like another is doing something effortlessly, it doesn't negate or change the fact that effort is still being put into something. Have a good day.

[Mister_Popo]

Before that when he beat Sagambo in Blue he was showing it.

Absolutely not. All these chapters ever show is Goku powering up with a kiai. This isn't like what the anime did where he was screaming (in complete UI, no less) specifically because he was angry.

You're completely misinterpreting how this form works. The whole idea behind Ultra Instinct Sign is precisely that - it's just a sign, it's flawed and incomplete.

Even in the anime, when in Omen, in most cases Goku barely showed any emotion.
Why should the writers apply that concept in the first place when the form is incomplete?
If it does not work that way anyways ...
It should only be applied when he truely has mastered the form in that case.

Even if those are kiai, like you are suggesting, why isn't it applied consequently: sometimes he seems to need the kiai, (most) other times he doesn't?
It's rather seems a matter of consequence here.