"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Wed May 20, 2020 3:22 pm

I enjoyed this chapter, exact opposite feeling I had from the early leaks

Come on ya'll, Beerus is clearly headed to Earth and is using the food excuse again. He had a serious demeanor while listening to Merus and Whis discuss the fight, and when Whis said Goku stands no chance, Beerus suddenly asks Whis to take him to a planet with food. And right before Whis leaves, he mentions how the only way they're allowed to interfere is if Beerus orders it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed May 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 60:

- Nice panelling and composition of Goku and Moro charging their ki in front of one another. It was basically a dick measuring contest and Goku won.
- Really good choreography in the fight between Goku and Moro. It's nothing special, but it's very much serviceable.
- The whole business that Yardrats are forbidden from travelling off their home using Instant Transmission flies right in the face of the fact that Universe 2 had a Yardrat take part in the Tournament Of Power.
- I just can't shake the feeling with Goku burning out while using Ultra Instinct Sign that Toyotaro is saving the complete version of the form to have Goku use against Moro while he's fighting Vegeta.
- I'm conflicted about Vegeta using Instant Transmission. On one hand, it fits the mythos of the Yardrat and it would have been weird if the technique was never brought up. Plus, it serves as clever transition from one location to next without wasting any time. On the other hand, Vegeta residing to never needing to use the technique again, smacks of fanservice. Especially since he had no problem in following in what Goku had attained before with Super Saiyan God.
- The gag of Vegeta ending up in the trash when he used Instant Transmission was hysterical.
- Fantastic cliffhanger with Vegeta charging towards Moro.

Overall, a good chapter, with the plot moving along very well and topped off with damn good hook for the next chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed May 20, 2020 3:45 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:22 pm
I enjoyed this chapter, exact opposite feeling I had from the early leaks

Come on ya'll, Beerus is clearly headed to Earth and is using the food excuse again. He had a serious demeanor while listening to Merus and Whis discuss the fight, and when Whis said Goku stands no chance, Beerus suddenly asks Whis to take him to a planet with food. And right before Whis leaves, he mentions how the only way they're allowed to interfere is if Beerus orders it.
You sure? I mean, we know Beerus is an asshole. They might playing with us, as when it looks like Beerus is about to step up, Beerus is shown at another planet or something. He'll probably arrive when its obvious Moro is just whipping everyone to death and Vegeta and Goku look like hell. I kinda hope Beerus doesn't involve himself because that'll sound the alarm of people going like, 'Beerus's presence erases tension'! I knew it and bla bla blah...'
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:22 pm
Come on ya'll, Beerus is clearly headed to Earth and is using the food excuse again. He had a serious demeanor while listening to Merus and Whis discuss the fight, and when Whis said Goku stands no chance, Beerus suddenly asks Whis to take him to a planet with food. And right before Whis leaves, he mentions how the only way they're allowed to interfere is if Beerus orders it.
Yeah, someone’s getting involved for sure. Initially my quick read was that they were purposefully turning their backs to give Merusu an “out” for going to help without it being “known” he was doing so, but yeah, Beerus’ little charade is the likely reading to me now. Or both. Who knows? 🤷🏻‍♂️
Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:25 pm
The whole business that Yardrats are forbidden from travelling off their home using Instant Transmission flies right in the face of the fact that Universe 2 had a Yardrat take part in the Tournament Of Power.
That’s Universe 2, not 7, and who’s to say he didn’t take an airplane to the pickup location, or that their Kaiōshin picked him up personally? Non-issue to me here.

(The actual issue is still why the heck does universe 2 have a Yardratian?!)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Wed May 20, 2020 4:02 pm

Amusingly, I think it's more than possible that the Universe 2 Yardratian is some kind of renegade from Universe 7. That way, the mirrored universe thing seems a tad more coherent. The line about them being forbidden to leave could be an allusion to that.

While unnecessary, I would have appreciated something a bit more direct about it in the chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed May 20, 2020 4:06 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:25 pm
The whole business that Yardrats are forbidden from travelling off their home using Instant Transmission flies right in the face of the fact that Universe 2 had a Yardrat take part in the Tournament Of Power.
That’s Universe 2, not 7, and who’s to say he didn’t take an airplane to the pickup location, or that their Kaiōshin picked him up personally? Non-issue to me here.

(The actual issue is still why the heck does universe 2 have a Yardratian?!)
Great. Now I have the image in my head of Yardrats using their abilities to take advantage of a frequent-flyer program.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:07 pm

Haha well said Mike that always annoyed me too. Goes in the face of that sister planet idea when a universe adds to 13.

Regardless I'm sure the instant transmission rule would be broken for a tournament that would save the planet. Vegetas mentor was happy enough to break it in that less significant moment.

Great chapter though, I'm so much more invested in Vegeta this arc than Goku. The fight was OK but I just couldn't help myself being like get to Vegeta already! Can't wait to see this technique. And small things like Vegeta showing his gratitude and remembering the yardrats names (I sure didn't lol) go such a long way to adding to his standing character development. Glad he got more than just a cliche panel of him showing up and saying leave it to me. O

One thing that took me out of it a bit is the writers (just Toriyama?) going so far to explains why Vegeta won't get instant teleportation. It's not really Gokus signature technique he just got it from the Yardrats like he could have. It's a useful technique doesn't make sense why he wouldn't want it. Also this means Gokus always had a limited knowledge of spirit which is fun.

Great comedy too. Vegeta in the trash, the oracle fish fishing! Really enjoyed it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:20 pm

The whole thing about Vegeta being reluctant to use or learn Instant Transmission feels like damage control by Toyotaro, like he's backpeddling from giving Vegeta such an important technique because it just arbitrarily has to be Goku's thing, no one else's. It's kinda ridiculous to think that Vegeta is still so insecure that he hates using what he considers to be Goku's technique. It's pretty much in line with his character, but I still find the execution of that scene to be really forced and awkward. The interaction in a nutshell:

"You've gotta teleport to Earth", "I can't, you do it for me", "I can't because of some arbitrary bullshit", "Ok I'll try to do it- Ok, nope, can't do it", "Ok I'll break my bullshit rules and do it for you just this once", "Nope, it's ok, I did it- lol jk, I'll never use that again".

Who writes this shit? Oh wait...

Anyway, as for the rest, it's painfully decent. Decent-ish choreography; nothing too spectacular or original, and still having some awkward panel layouts. Honestly, I've kind of run out of patience and investment with this story arc. I'm sick of Moro and his utterly non-existent personality. I'm sick of Ultra Instinct just being presented like any old transformation (Toyo wasn't the first to do it, granted). I've seen the argument that U.I. Sign is meant to be incomplete, but even so, this version of the form originally had such mystique, such a cool-minded aura. I haven't fully read through the manga version of the Tournament of Power in a long time and while it came off as weaker, it still had that same coolness and intimidation factor. Last chapter at least gave us some typical Ultra Instinct stuff, but there's nothing distinctive at all about it now. Goku's still Goku, he still talks and screams, he can still be punched, kicked, even grabbed with little difficulty... It might as well be Super Saiyan God but black-haired.

For real positives, the Androids leaping in for a scrap was cool, and the gag of Vegeta teleporting into the trash was funny.

Going back to Moro, I really liked this character when he was first introduced. He had a fabulously sinister design, a genuinely intimidating presence and even though his personality and motivations weren't super unique even back then, it ironically felt kinda refreshing to have a classic-style, moustache-twirling villain after a long run of more 'experimental' antagonists. As the story has gone on, Toyotaro unfortunately seems to have gone out of his way to make him as generic and one-note as possible, which is reflected in his design becoming plainer.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Captain Awesome » Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm

I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects (be they movies or tv series).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:33 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm
I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects (be they movies or tv series).
Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed May 20, 2020 4:38 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:33 pm
Captain Awesome wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm
I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects (be they movies or tv series).
Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.
This is why I hate the current status quo. Unnecessarily kneecaps what a character can do in the plot.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed May 20, 2020 4:40 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:33 pm
Captain Awesome wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm
I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects (be they movies or tv series).
Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.
I feel like people gloss over the fact that Vegeta barely managed to do it with the 5 minutes of training he got with it. Especially since when he tried it, it took him several panels to do it. He hasn’t mastered it, he’s no even proficient at it. He just pulled it off last minute.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed May 20, 2020 4:42 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm
I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects.
He didn't come up with it on his own, as he said multiple times, Toriyama also has a hand in writing it and even correcting the art. Vegeta not wanting to use it is very in character, as his pride won't allow him to use someone else's technique. There's also the fact that he has his own technique that will most likely be used in future arcs. There's a good chance future arcs moving forward will be written like this one, between Toriyama and Toyotaro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Peach » Wed May 20, 2020 4:56 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:30 am
Peach wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:26 am
I wish we could have seen 17 and 18 do the Fusion Dance for a chapter before Vegeta showed up
Come to think of it, can Androids even do that ? I guess they're still part human, but I wonder if that might prevent them from doing so.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed May 20, 2020 4:58 pm

TheNingen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:29 pm
Omgzord wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 1:37 pm
Goku was consistently screaming and powering up while in UI Omen. I fail to see why people keep saying stuff like "Toyotarou doesn't understand the principle of this form of this form" when Toei was the very first to butcher the form concept. Goku was consistently speaking, screaming, powering up while in UI throughout his whole fight with Jiren but somehow Toyotarou is the one who doesn't understand the DB lore.

Like the user above me said, Toyotarou's problem is not lack of knowledge, but how underwhelming most of his fights are and how he lacks any sense of creativity. Moro was introduced as a fresh take on DB Villians by relying on Magic and Hax to outplay the protagonist despite them being miles ahead of him at the time. Which lead to some interesting character development especially on Vegeta's side who always viewed magic as low tricks and a waste of time. He even went out of his way to call his previous training "stupid".

Fast forward 10 chapters later and it's obvious that Toyotarou doesn't know what to do with Moro anymore. He powered him up to the point that he could throw punches with UI Omen Goku "which likely as strong as he Silver hair from the ToP" and instead of making Moro absorb his power and trick him he just made Moro "really strong" and now he can just throw firsts. It was a problem from very early on when Goku said that he had to learn "UI" to defeat Moro. Which didn't make a lot of sense, something pointed out by a lot of fans early on, what is UI supposed to do against Moro? It doesn't counter Moro's magic in any form it's just a power that amps his agility the most.

Toyotarou even reconned that Moro can absorb Ki passively within an AoE format, now Moro of all sudden needs to LOCK-ON to absorb magic and can't do it if Goku is moving fast. Like, what sort of logic is that? He then goes out of his way and writes that Moro ONLY absorbs magic to fill his stomach and not to power up, despite it being his primary fighting style on Namek.

You can tell that Toyotarou didn't know how to write around Moro's magic and Haxx ability and just reduced him to "Goat who can speak with big muscles "

You're just flat out wrong on your point regarding UI. Toei had Omen Goku mainly speaking like what....3 times? And that was during his fight with Kefla. When he uses it in the manga, he's constantly chatting up a storm and being a cocky little shit. Toei stayed true to the principle of absence of thought moreso than Toyo has committed to the idea. And as other users have pointed out, Toyo DOES have issues committing to ideas. Goku in Sign was serious, focused, but at the same time it was clear all of his movements were reactionary and defensive. Whis' monologue during Goku's fight with Jiren before he mastered the form is enough to satisfy that argument. Here Goku has forgotten what he learned from Roshi in the TOP, and is trying to brute force his way through the form, which shouldn't even be how it works to begin with. If he is consciously trying to power himself up through UI in a brute force method, it is no longer UI. It's just SSB or Kaioken.

Also Goku only screamed and powered up as he was breaking through his limits and getting close to the completed power of Ultra Instinct. He wasn't using it just because he 'needed more power.' It was the body acting on its own and acclimating to the power of Ultra Instinct, which then kicked Goku's ass as it overwhelmed him. Sorry not sorry, but besides the initial activation of the Sign form, Toei handled the concept and execution of UI and UI sign much better than Toyo has.
But Toyo showed in this chapter precisely that the UI does not work that way. That's why Goku didn't get a power up, because forcibly increasing power makes the user unable to manifest the strength of the UI.

And this is exactly the opposite of what the anime showed with the Silver haired UI, since Goku got a rage boost against Jiren (in fact, the whole fight was UI Goku overpowering Jiren and not using the UI perks)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed May 20, 2020 5:00 pm

Toyotaro said he listens to what fans want, so surely he's aware of the complaining in regards to the lack of tension due to Beerus and Whis being friends with everyone, what if this time they're sticking to their words and not getting involved ? I know everyone (including myself) think that the big plot twist will be Merus stepping in and saving the day, but maybe this one time earth will have to rely on itself to get through. No Beerus, no angles, and no Zeno.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed May 20, 2020 5:01 pm

Not a great chapter for me. I feel like I've seen all that happened in the previous one, only in this one Vegeta showed up.

The action was good, it flowed well, but Vegeta not thinking ahead of how to go to Earth? what? when he was already "late" like 5 chapters ago but he kept training whatever he was training, it seemed like he got it all covered, like he had the cab waiting by the door. I guess Toyo invented that Yadratian rule (that they were willing to break) for comic relief, which didn't work for me really.
Also I guess it was to show that Vegeta can learn IT on the spot now, which doesn't mean much and hardly surprised anybody, he learn SSG on his own, IT should be a walk on the park. And all for Vegeta to learn a technique he bows to never use again or even master. It's all a mess that only took away from real action panels with Vegeta on Earth sooner. I'm not really against Vegeta learning IT, but how it was executed: in a time-filler manner that prevented us from real action. I think it would've been better if Vegeta just shunkanido'd his ass as soon as he mastered his ground-breaking technique.

And what's the deal with Goku? he can go all angry in Omen like it's another form that can be stressed to the max and adds blue-ish to it? man, Risu's memes have never been more on point as they are now. The same mistake vs Jiren, it's like he learned nothing from that awful Roshi display or from his 6 months training with an angel, all that just to use Omen backwards?? what? Goku, where's your head?

Oh, and what's the deal with giving Vegeta back his armor and stripping him from his cool Yadratian clothes? we could use refreshing wardrobes, Z gave Geets like 4 fighting outfits, in DBS he is stuck since 2017 with the same boring armor.

Also, I've complained about it before, but can people stop taking leaks so seriously?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed May 20, 2020 5:04 pm

Another painfully slow chapter. Toyo-tarou isn't a genius, he can't just do nearly 30 pages of one fight that clearly isn't going anywhere, especially after it was made clear that Gokuu wasn't going to win in the previous chapter. I really wish the point of this comic was efficiency and not just dragging nonsense out. There's too little sense of progression for a series with 45-page chapters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:04 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:42 pm
Captain Awesome wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:32 pm
I read Vegeta's refusal to use instantaneous movement again as a way to keep the status quo. This arc reads like Toyotaro was allowed to come up with an idea entirely on his own, provided it didn't have any long term ramifications on future projects.
He didn't come up with it on his own, as he said multiple times, Toriyama also has a hand in writing it and even correcting the art. Vegeta not wanting to use it is very in character, as his pride won't allow him to use someone else's technique. There's also the fact that he has his own technique that will most likely be used in future arcs. There's a good chance future arcs moving forward will be written like this one, between Toriyama and Toyotaro.
It doesn't matter whose idea it was, it still feels like an incredibly arbitrary, unnecessary plot beat. If Vegeta was really so prideful that he didn't want to do I.T., he could have waited two seconds for the big Yardrat to take him there. Instead, Vegeta has to do it himself because that's what everyone expected him to do (gotta have that dramatic I.T. entrance) and awkwardly explain to himself that he won't do it again because "dumb Carrot boy can do the teleport thing and I'm too hipster to do it as well."

It feels like they're needlessly stifling Vegeta to maintain a marketable status quo, which feels best represented by the fact that he ditches the Yardrat costume - I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he also lost his mysterious new technique by the end of this arc. Vegeta may be prideful, arrogant, etc but he's a grown ass man. If he learned the technique, he would use it and not have a babyish hissy fit about Goku knowing it too. It's as ridiculous as Vegeta giving up Super Saiyan transformations altogether just because Goku could use them first.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed May 20, 2020 5:10 pm

It feels really dumb. Like Vegeta, you're in your forties, why are you acting like a baby? Goku is trying to not kill himself and he's being upset about using a technique that is useful because Goku does it too? The universe doesn't have time for it and neither do the earth's fighters. Vegeta is a prideful asshole, but he's a grown one too, this isn't the time for this nonsense. I know you can't have Vegeta and Goku using Instant transmission but can Vegeta not act like a prideful jackass about it? What is this, the cell saga?
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