"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

It feels really dumb. Like Vegeta, you're in your forties, why are you acting like a baby? Goku is trying to not kill himself and he's being upset about using a technique that is useful because Goku does it too? The universe doesn't have time for it and neither do the earth's fighters. Vegeta is a prideful asshole, but he's a grown one too, this isn't the time for this nonsense. I know you can't have Vegeta and Goku using Instant transmission but can Vegeta not act like a prideful jackass about it? What is this, the cell saga?

It feels like they're needlessly stifling Vegeta to maintain a marketable status quo, which feels best represented by the fact that he ditches the Yardrat costume - I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he also lost his mysterious new technique by the end of this arc. Vegeta may be prideful, arrogant, etc but he's a grown ass man. If he learned the technique, he would use it and not have a babyish hissy fit about Goku knowing it too. It's as ridiculous as Vegeta giving up Super Saiyan transformations altogether just because Goku could use them first.

If Vegeta did decide to keep and use it, I wouldn't be surprised if you and others would turn around and say he was just copying Goku and his pride shouldn't allow that. In others words, it's a no win situation.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t know. I have a feeling that Beerus is playing dumb and somehow he will get involved in this fight. It seems that Whis got that and tried to lure Merus out of the matter.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don’t know. I have a feeling that Beerus is playing dumb and somehow he will get involved in this fight. It seems that Whis got that and tried to lure Merus out of the matter.

Whis is trying to distract Merus by shutting off his staff and going like 'Whoops! Food time! Battle lost!' He can't let Merus die and he's trying to his best to distance Merus from the conflict like the plague, though I don't Merus is falling for it.....

Beerus is probably making an excuse to visit Earth and debate...'To get involved or not....Decisions decisions...'

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I wish we could have seen 17 and 18 do the Fusion Dance for a chapter before Vegeta showed up

Come to think of it, can Androids even do that ? I guess they're still part human, but I wonder if that might prevent them from doing so.

Yes, yes it can. They almost fused in the ToP with the earrings.

But seriously, would it actually do anything? Like would they be strong enough to damage Moro? Even combined, I kinda doubted 17 and 18 would do much to Moro even as Android 35. They might be able to fight him for some time, but I'm not sure they'd be able to seriously damage Moro or anything given 17 and 18 get smacked away by Moro like a bunch of flies. I mean, Goku, whose stronger than them and using a godly technique was struggling against Moro, especially since UI is very hard to use.

Maybe fusing against 7-3 would be a better idea once he comes into play....probably would be more effective than Moro.

[LoganForkHands73]

It feels really dumb. Like Vegeta, you're in your forties, why are you acting like a baby? Goku is trying to not kill himself and he's being upset about using a technique that is useful because Goku does it too? The universe doesn't have time for it and neither do the earth's fighters. Vegeta is a prideful asshole, but he's a grown one too, this isn't the time for this nonsense. I know you can't have Vegeta and Goku using Instant transmission but can Vegeta not act like a prideful jackass about it? What is this, the cell saga?

It feels like they're needlessly stifling Vegeta to maintain a marketable status quo, which feels best represented by the fact that he ditches the Yardrat costume - I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he also lost his mysterious new technique by the end of this arc. Vegeta may be prideful, arrogant, etc but he's a grown ass man. If he learned the technique, he would use it and not have a babyish hissy fit about Goku knowing it too. It's as ridiculous as Vegeta giving up Super Saiyan transformations altogether just because Goku could use them first.

If Vegeta did decide to keep and use it, I wouldn't be surprised if you and others would turn around and say he was just copying Goku and his pride shouldn't allow that. In others words, it's a no win situation.

I wouldn't complain about that. It made perfect sense for him to just learn Instant Transmission without any of this nonsense baggage. There may have been some potential in there about Vegeta procrastinating learning it because he wants to get out Goku's shadow. I personally just don't like that idea, though. It feels like the most pointlessly reductive thing they've done to Vegeta's character since Super began. This doesn't feel like something Vegeta would seriously be concerned about. He was ecstatic to show off his Super Saiyan transformation even though both Goku and Trunks had learned it before him.

And as I said, if they really wanted to follow this route, the whole sequence could have been fixed by Vegeta just not learning I.T. at all. Rather than moaning at Goku for playing with the toy first which I don't think Vegeta would ever openly admit to anyone, he should just show how much better his new technique is.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Toyotaro said he listens to what fans want, so surely he's aware of the complaining in regards to the lack of tension due to Beerus and Whis being friends with everyone, what if this time they're sticking to their words and not getting involved ? I know everyone (including myself) think that the big plot twist will be Merus stepping in and saving the day, but maybe this one time earth will have to rely on itself to get through. No Beerus, no angles, and no Zeno.

Yeah, I agree. Keep Zeno out especially. He'll just erase everything. Let's keep psycho godlike children out of the battlefield unless necessary. Zeno is literally a last resort tactic who shouldn't be used often. If Goku has to use that Zeno button, it won't be anytime soon I imagine. Like if they use the button, its in the far future...hopefully because I'd hate for everyone to get erased because Zeno got mad. Getting Zeno involved always risks everyone getting erased.

[Lord Beerus]

And what's the deal with Goku? he can go all angry in Omen like it's another form that can be stressed to the max and adds blue-ish to it? man, Risu's memes have never been more on point as they are now. The same mistake vs Jiren, it's like he learned nothing from that awful Roshi display or from his 6 months training with an angel, all that just to use Omen backwards?? what? Goku, where's your head?

Yeah, that stood out to me as well. Like, Goku learned nothing from his fight against Jiren. And in general, when in it comes to utilising Ultra Instinct, has seemingly gone backwards.

Goku training with Merus was waste of time.

[Grand Marshal 1]

And what's the deal with Goku? he can go all angry in Omen like it's another form that can be stressed to the max and adds blue-ish to it? man, Risu's memes have never been more on point as they are now. The same mistake vs Jiren, it's like he learned nothing from that awful Roshi display or from his 6 months training with an angel, all that just to use Omen backwards?? what? Goku, where's your head?

Yeah, that stood out to me as well. Like, Goku learned nothing from his fight against Jiren. And in general, when in it comes to utilising Ultra Instinct, has seemingly gone backwards.

Goku training with Merus was waste of time.

More like filler to keep us waiting until the summer for a mediocre fight and for Vegeta to train realistically (but in the end learned IT in 2 minutes even for a single use from Yardrat to Earth lol)

[The Undying]

If Vegeta did decide to keep and use it, I wouldn't be surprised if you and others would turn around and say he was just copying Goku and his pride shouldn't allow that.

I, personally, would have taken issue with that. As it stands, I'm glad he abandoned the technique and the chapter seems to frame IT as such an enormous hurdle for him that he can't consistently use it, which makes sense given that he barely trained with it.

That's a good thing.

Vegeta abandoning IT isn't really fanservice, but the idea of him having (and using) it permanently absolutely is. That's just a pointless souvenir to show that Vegeta can do whatever Goku can without adding anything to the story or his character.

[Matches Malone]

I'm glad he abandoned the technique and the chapter seems to frame IT as such an enormous hurdle for him that he can't consistently use it, which makes sense given that he barely trained with it.

The thing that people aren't taking into account, is that Goku had an entire year to learn it, while Vegeta only had a few minutes. It makes sense that he'd only pull it off once. It shows that some fans will literally complain about anything just for the sake of it.

[DiscountDabi]

I'm glad he abandoned the technique and the chapter seems to frame IT as such an enormous hurdle for him that he can't consistently use it, which makes sense given that he barely trained with it.

The thing that people aren't taking into account, is that Goku had an entire year to learn it, while Vegeta only had a few minutes. It makes sense that he'd only pull it off once. It shows that some fans will literally complain about anything just for the sake of it.

The current state of the Dragon Ball community in a nutshell

[LoganForkHands73]

If Vegeta did decide to keep and use it, I wouldn't be surprised if you and others would turn around and say he was just copying Goku and his pride shouldn't allow that.

I, personally, would have taken issue with that. As it stands, I'm glad he abandoned the technique and the chapter seems to frame IT as such an enormous hurdle for him that he can't consistently use it, which makes sense given that he barely trained with it.

That's a good thing.

Vegeta abandoning IT isn't really fanservice, but the idea of him having (and using) it permanently absolutely is. That's just a pointless souvenir to show that Vegeta can do whatever Goku can without adding anything to the story or his character.

Why do the characters have to be defined by the techniques they know? Like, Vegeta learning I.T. doesn't diminish his uniqueness as a character at all, nor the fact that he also learned an apparently cooler technique from the Yardrats. Wouldn't Vegeta realistically be sicker of having to hold Goku's hand every time they needed to teleport away from somewhere together? Besides, characters in Dragon Ball are nicking moves off each other all the time - remember when the Solar Flare was solely Tenshinhan's move? Was it fanservice when Krillin, Goku and just about everybody started using it as well? I don't see the big deal.

I'd find it to be more of a sign of growth and maturity if he were to just suck it up and learn I.T. in the plentiful time he had. Either that, or he just runs out of time; none of this childishness about "pilfering" moves. If this overall outline surrounding his angst about it and inability to use it absolutely had to be kept, then I think it would be better if the scene was framed like this: let's say, a few chapters ago, Vegeta is learning this new technique. The boss Yardrat is like "right, time to learn Instant Transmission". Vegeta makes up some excuse that he'd rather focus on perfecting this new move. When we get to this chapter, the Yardrats confront Vegeta about his unwillingness to learn I.T. and deduce that he must have some issues to deal with. He calls them idiots, secretly knowing that they have a point, and reluctantly begins training. However, he fails to master it in time because of his procrastination. When the Yardrat is forced to do it for him, Goku asks about whether or not he learned I.T., which Vegeta just coolly shrugs off before demonstrating the new technique.

Everything about how this is presented in the chapter itself feels incredibly messy.

Honestly, this is the first time I've been really negative about the Moro arc so far. Something about this just stinks to me.

[Diggz92]

I didn't want Vegeta to learn instant transmission, as I preferred it to be Goku exclusive. The further away Goku and Vegeta get in terms of powerups and techniques the better IMO. Doesn't make it good or bad, it's just my preference. That being said, the writing around it was disappointing and nonsensical. I have my biases like anyone else, but I refrain from calling any idea a bad idea just because it's not my idea. If a writer goes in the opposite direction of what I want, that's fine, but they have to commit to it. If you don't commit to it, you end up with writing that's obviously contrived, and hard to take seriously.

From the get go, Yardrat was a callback that didn't need to happen. Vegeta, the man amongst the Z-fighters who has spent the most time traveling the universe couldn't think of anywhere else to go. Vegeta (not Goku, the person who's actually been there) randomly decided to go to Yardrat because they might have a technique that could help against Moro. What do you know, it turns out they do. Vegeta learns said technique and asks to be teleported to Earth. The Yardrats (Yardrations?) have a law that forbids them from using instant transmission to other planets. As contrived as that is, it actually works, because now Vegeta HAS to learn I.T regardless of how he feels about it. Regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it, it's now necessary. Suddenly, the Yardrat says "This is an emergency, so I'll get you to earth." Vegeta says no, I got this.

Vegeta didn't go from one city to another or one country to another. He went from one planet to another. For all intents and purposes, it's safe to say he's mastered the technique (in a very short amount of time may I add). He gets to Earth and tells Goku, he doesn't plan on using the technique again AND even if he wanted to, he probably couldn't. Saying he won't use it again, is just Vegeta, no big deal. Saying he can't use it again, is bad writing. The reason I say it's nonsensical is because if Toyotaro didn't want Vegeta to have I.T in his arsenal, the Yardrats could've teleported him to earth. It's just that easy. Going through the "We can't take you, but we will, but now we don't have to" scene was unnecessary and illogical. Unnecessary for the reason I just stated and illogical because it actually does work if the plan was the opposite. If the plan was to have I.T be something Vegeta's going to start doing, if not casually, than at least for emergencies than that's perfect...until he gets to Earth and forgets how to do a technique he just learned 30 seconds ago.

This is what I mean by committing to an idea. If you're going to have Vegeta learn instant transmission, then have him learn it. If not, don't.

The point of Vegeta doing the the technique was so that he wouldn't put the yardrat in danger when he gets there. That's the whole that goes along with his whole character since the time when they were on new namek. He want to keep others out of harms way. Also I believe it stated in an earlier chapter that frieza was supposed to go there or the Ginyu force.

[superfan2024]

Overall, a pretty decent chapter. I loved the final panel of Vegeta dashing to Moro, and am actually really interested on what Vegeta's "new technique" will be against Moro. Please Toyo/Tori, don't do my boy Vege bad

My only issue with the chapter was Goku's UI problem. He's literally doing the exact same mistake he was doing in the manga's ToP, relying on brute power over actual fighting and technique. It's almost like a complete repeat of Goku obtaining UI again, and like what someone said above, it also almost feels like Goku's training with Merus was just a waste of time, aside from Goku being able to go Omen at will.

Now we just wait for UI (Silver)'s inevitable return.

[Matches Malone]

Now we just wait for UI (Silver)'s inevitable return.

I think we're unlikely to see it here based on how Whis and Merus were talking. If anything, Goku will use this defeat to train properly to not only control Omen, but reach MUI at will. There's also the fact that DB doesn't reward stupidity. When Goku or any other fighter does something stupid, they get punished for it, and this chapter went out of its way to establish Goku doing everything wrong. It wouldn't make sense to reward him with MUI.

[The Undying]

Why do the characters have to be defined by the techniques they know?

I can't. I just can't.

Complaining about Vegeta not having permanent access to IT is the very epitome of "defining characters by the techniques they know". This is not even remotely important, nor does it have anything to do with Vegeta's character besides having a bunch of fans masturbate over what moves he has in his arsenal. Nobody cares. It's not why he visited Yardrat in the first place.

What we saw in this chapter perfectly accommodates the kind of approach Vegeta would have taken. He didn't want to use the technique (and only learned it because he was forced to), but he's not the type of character to ask for assistance if he can do it himself. That's why he insisted on using it after Goku's regular ki signature returned.

This is quite literally Vegeta 101.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

And what's the deal with Goku? he can go all angry in Omen like it's another form that can be stressed to the max and adds blue-ish to it? man, Risu's memes have never been more on point as they are now. The same mistake vs Jiren, it's like he learned nothing from that awful Roshi display or from his 6 months training with an angel, all that just to use Omen backwards?? what? Goku, where's your head?

Yeah, that stood out to me as well. Like, Goku learned nothing from his fight against Jiren. And in general, when in it comes to utilising Ultra Instinct, has seemingly gone backwards.

Goku training with Merus was waste of time.

Wouldn't call it a waste of time, though I'm starting to question Goku's ability to control UI. This is hard technique but going full in probably wasn't a smart move on his part, especially since UI in general is a pain in the ass. If MUI shows up(Which I'm questioning if it will) it'll be at the last minute while Goku is once again dangling on a thread because MUI tends to show up when Goku's knocking at death's door.

[LoganForkHands73]

Why do the characters have to be defined by the techniques they know?

I can't. I just can't.

Complaining about Vegeta not having permanent access to IT is the very epitome of "defining characters by the techniques they know". This is not even remotely important, nor does it have anything to do with Vegeta's character besides having a bunch of fans masturbate over what moves he has in his arsenal. Nobody cares. It's not why he visited Yardrat in the first place.

What we saw in this chapter perfectly accommodates the kind of approach Vegeta would have taken. He didn't want to use the technique (and only learned it because he was forced to), but he's not the type of character to ask for assistance if he can do it himself. That's why he insisted on using it after Goku's regular ki signature returned.

This is quite literally Vegeta 101.

A technique is just a technique. You're correct, the fact that he knows or doesn't know it shouldn't matter too much, so why did the chapter waste everyone's time to make a big deal out of him not knowing it, flip-flopping back and forth before he finally does use it after about twelve seconds of practice?

You said you would complain if Vegeta did learn I.T., so clearly you do care and it is important to you. So clearly, you're the one who's putting too much emphasis on him learning a simple, practical technique that doesn't reflect his character in any way.

EDIT:
You also ignored my other questions and the rest of my post. It simply makes more sense to me that he wouldn't let himself be defined by his usage of a move in that way. I and others have already gone over why it felt narratively problematic to flip-flop on the subject, and I get that in the chapter he didn't learn it - whatever, I wouldn't have cared either way. But the fact there's a tacked-on justification for it in that he doesn't feel like "stealing" what he sees as Goku's move even if he could (even though he just went to a planet full of people that can do it) feels like an unnecessary touch. He had similar difficulties going Super Saiyan prior to the Android Saga, but he didn't change his goal of achieving it just because Goku and Trunks got there first.

[Matches Malone]

Wouldn't call it a waste of time, though I'm starting to question Goku's ability to control UI. This is hard technique but going full in probably wasn't a smart move on his part, especially since UI in general is a pain in the ass.

If MUI shows up(Which I'm questioning if it will) it'll be at the last minute while Goku is once again dangling on a thread.

I think what happened here might result in Goku training with the grand priest in order to fully master it.

When Goku or any other fighter does something stupid, they get punished for it, and this chapter went out of its way to establish Goku doing everything wrong. It wouldn't make sense to reward him with MUI. That's not to say he won't play a role in the climax, as I think there'll be more to it than just Vegeta's solo fight, but again, it wouldn't make sense to reward him for his mistakes.

[Kinokima]

It feels really dumb. Like Vegeta, you're in your forties, why are you acting like a baby? Goku is trying to not kill himself and he's being upset about using a technique that is useful because Goku does it too? The universe doesn't have time for it and neither do the earth's fighters. Vegeta is a prideful asshole, but he's a grown one too, this isn't the time for this nonsense. I know you can't have Vegeta and Goku using Instant transmission but can Vegeta not act like a prideful jackass about it? What is this, the cell saga?

It feels like they're needlessly stifling Vegeta to maintain a marketable status quo, which feels best represented by the fact that he ditches the Yardrat costume - I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he also lost his mysterious new technique by the end of this arc. Vegeta may be prideful, arrogant, etc but he's a grown ass man. If he learned the technique, he would use it and not have a babyish hissy fit about Goku knowing it too. It's as ridiculous as Vegeta giving up Super Saiyan transformations altogether just because Goku could use them first.

If Vegeta did decide to keep and use it, I wouldn't be surprised if you and others would turn around and say he was just copying Goku and his pride shouldn't allow that. In others words, it's a no win situation.

I just wonder what chapter people were reading where Vegeta acted immature or threw a fit about learning IT. He just simply said he isn’t going to do it again and he isn’t even sure he could.

It was fan service to have him do it. Don’t get me wrong. But the way Vegeta acted about it wasn’t negative at all.