"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

It feels like Goku vs Moro serves more as the backdrop for this chapter. It was intense at best and slightly generic at worst. If I were to judge the chapter with Goku vs Moro as the centerpiece, this would be my least favorite chapter of the arc, but Vegeta and Merus actually seem to be the focus.

Merus is a good-hearted Zamasu. While Zamasu is driven by ego, Merus is driven by altruism. Zamasu's characteristic proved to be his downfall, and Merus is looking more dead by the panel. An important lesson by Whis, but we'll see if he's more effective than Gowasu at keeping his student on the "right" path.

Beerus wants tasty food...is he going to earth?

The highlight for me was the "will they, won't they" happening on Yardrat. I think fans did not want Vegeta to use Goku's "signature move", and I think they wanted to see Vegeta fight in the Yardrat uniform. Neither happened. Pybara states that it's against the rules to use teleportation to other planets, but immediately changes his mind and says he'll make an exception. In that short instance, Vegeta changes his mind too. If Vegeta can learn an advanced Yardrat technique, he can certainly figure out the most basic one, and certainly much faster than Kakarot. The way it plays out feels like a natural extension of Vegeta's personality, and it seems plausible that he'll never use it again. Pybara's analysis of Vegeta was short but sweet. I've loved the light-heartedness of the Yardrat segments this arc, and I'm super excited to see what Vegeta shows us next chapter.

In the Future Trunks arc of Super, Vegeta and Goku had different strategies to take on Zamasu. While Goku's was superior, it was ultimately not enough to win the battle. Here...we'll see...

[Matches Malone]

The way Vegeta acted about it wasn’t negative at all.

That, and the fact it took Goku a year to learn it. I get Vegeta is talented, but not to the point where he can learn in a few minutes what Goku learned in a year.

[The Undying]

You're correct, it shouldn't matter whether or not he knows it

It matters to you. You were the one complaining about "status quos" when status quos aren't even a part of the equation (and also not relevant since Vegeta learned new moves anyway).

In-universe, they go back and forth because they don't have a way to get to Earth, then Vegeta learns IT, then he commits himself to using the technique because he doesn't want help if he can do it on his own. He also barely knows how to use it. He also didn't want to use it, but the circumstances forced him to.

Vegeta 101.

Out-of-universe, he (temporarily) pulls off the technique to foreshadow his natural capacity for Yardratian techniques that we're keenly aware are vital to combating Moro's magic, simultaneously giving him a dramatic entrance while remaining true to his character.

Vegeta 101.

That's it. This takes up maybe a few pages, includes fun dialogue and funny gags, and contains more interesting character interactions than anything else in the chapter. Meanwhile, you're making mountains out of molehills because IT isn't permanently whored out to a character that doesn't even need it.

This is 100% a non-issue.

[LoganForkHands73]

You're correct, it shouldn't matter whether or not he knows it

It matters to you. You were the one complaining about "status quos" when status quos aren't even a part of the equation (and also not relevant since Vegeta learned new moves anyway).

In-universe, they go back and forth because they don't have a way to get to Earth, then Vegeta learns IT, then he commits himself to using the technique because he doesn't want help if he can do it on his own. He also barely knows how to use it.

Vegeta 101.

Out-of-universe, he (temporarily) pulls off the technique to foreshadow his natural capacity for Yardratian techniques that we're keenly aware are vital to combating Moro's magic, simultaneously giving him a dramatic entrance while remaining true to his character.

Vegeta 101.

That's it. This takes up maybe a few pages, includes fun dialogue and funny gags, and contains more interesting character interactions than anything else in the chapter. Meanwhile, you're making mountains out of molehills because IT isn't permanently whored out to a character that doesn't even need it.

This is 100% a non-issue.

But I stand by that you haven't addressed many of my real points. You said you would have had a problem with the idea of him learning the move because it's "fanservice", but I pointed out that characters learning new moves is nothing new or groundbreaking. I feel that him simply learning it would have done a lot to make this chapter feel much less clunky. Everything we've been shown so far between Vegeta and the Yardrats since their introduction has been meaningless faff with barely any characterisation given for the Yardrats. This chapter was no different. So like Vegeta, it can get in the bin for all I care.

I'm not some battleboarder masturbating about an addition to Vegeta's arsenal for versus debates or whatever you seem to have assumed about me. That's not the heart of what I care about here, the technique itself is unimportant. Nevertheless, him stooping to learn something Goku knows without complaint could have been used as a device to show us how far Vegeta has come in maturity, which was previously stressed on New Namek. I find the hurdles that were jumped through to justify the token "dramatic I.T. entrance" scene only for Vegeta to basically turn to the audience and say "lol, don't worry nerds, I'm never using that again" to be my main sticking point.

Everything about how they handled it gives me a bad feeling that, once again, nothing significant will change after this arc. Vegeta's back in his old Saiyan armour and flat out told us that he won't use something useful and harmless 'cause he's a proud Saiyan who don't need no Yardrat (except for when he does). Toyotaro promised big things but has already started folding his cards. Maybe I am just being cynical and it's even likely I'm overreacting like an idiot (I've been very stressed recently) but it was one of the last straws that broke the camel's back in terms of my engagement with this arc.

[The Undying]

Nevertheless, him stooping to learn something Goku knows without complaint could have been used as a device to show us how far Vegeta has come in maturity

He didn't complain. He immediately asked Pybara to teach him the technique after being told that Goku's ki wasn't detectable. How is that not mature?

Did you not read that part where he was explicitly grateful to the Yardratians? Did you miss that part where he told Goku he likely wouldn't be able to use it again anyway because he learned it in such a short period of time?

Let's get back to techniques. Didn't you see Vegeta acquiring new moves that would presumably make him a formidable fighter, or Goku now being able to tap into some form of Ultra Instinct at will?

This is not what "status quo" looks like. On the contrary, these are clear-cut examples of character progression (and ability progression) that Super often played safe with - and he's doing this without sacrificing his core personality traits or other dynamics.

Maybe I am just being cynical and it's even likely I'm overreacting like an idiot (I've been very stressed recently)

Look, man, I get it. I don't know what you're personally going through, but with these shitty quarantines going on for as long as they have, I think I can say with confidence that a fair bit of us aren't in the highest spirits right now. Depression sucks.

But out of all the massive problems this arc has, this isn't one of them. This is a good way to enhance Vegeta's character without just mindlessly succumbing to whatever fans want.

[Matches Malone]

With these shitty quarantines going on for as long as they have, I think I can say with confidence that a fair bit of us aren't in the highest spirits right now. Depression sucks.

Truer words have not been spoken. With that said, I think that the solution to all the world's problems right now is for Vegeta to deliver a good fight next month. If he can beat Moro and maybe even kill him, the planet will finally achieve world peace.

[dbzfan7]

I'm pretty sure what Vegeta learned is far more advance than IT so him having been doing more advanced spirited stuff before going back to a simpler one should be fine. As well as his talent as a Martial Artist is likely far greater than what level Goku was at during the Pre Mecha Freeza. I'm kinda more miffed that it feels like an unnecessary one off. He better be using it later or they should just have had the Yardrat take him.

[Peach]

Come to think of it, can Androids even do that ? I guess they're still part human, but I wonder if that might prevent them from doing so.

Yes, yes it can. They almost fused in the ToP with the earrings.

But seriously, would it actually do anything? Like would they be strong enough to damage Moro? Even combined, I kinda doubted 17 and 18 would do much to Moro even as Android 35. They might be able to fight him for some time, but I'm not sure they'd be able to seriously damage Moro or anything given 17 and 18 get smacked away by Moro like a bunch of flies. I mean, Goku, whose stronger than them and using a godly technique was struggling against Moro, especially since UI is very hard to use.

Maybe fusing against 7-3 would be a better idea once he comes into play....probably would be more effective than Moro.

I would have still loved to have seen it. No reason a fusion like that can't be comparable to Goku if 17 is Blue tier and strong enough to block/hurt Jiren.

[DiscountDabi]

I hope that the technique Vegeta learned isn’t Moro Specific and can be a staple Vegeta move like how Instant Transmission is a Goku Staple.

Based on the manga it appears to be some sort of absorption or Ki stealing technique and I really hope its not. I hope it’s something we can see Vegeta use in the future.

[LoganForkHands73]

Nevertheless, him stooping to learn something Goku knows without complaint could have been used as a device to show us how far Vegeta has come in maturity

He didn't complain. He immediately asked Pybara to teach him the technique after being told that Goku's ki wasn't detectable. How is that not mature?

Did you not read that part where he was explicitly grateful to the Yardratians? Did you miss that part where he told Goku he likely wouldn't be able to use it again anyway because he learned it in such a short period of time?

Let's get back to techniques. Didn't you see Vegeta acquiring new moves that would presumably make him a formidable fighter, or Goku now being able to tap into some form of Ultra Instinct at will?

This is not what "status quo" looks like. On the contrary, these are clear-cut examples of character progression (and ability progression) that Super often played safe with - and he's doing this without sacrficing his core personality traits.

Maybe I am just being cynical and it's even likely I'm overreacting like an idiot (I've been very stressed recently)

Look, man, I get it. I don't know what you're personally going through, but with these shitty quarantines going around for as long as they have, I think I can say with confidence that a fair bit of us aren't in the highest spirits right now. Depression sucks.

But out of all the massive problems this arc has, this isn't of them. This is a good way to enhance Vegeta's character without just mindlessly succumbing to whatever fans want.

Ok ok ok. Genuinely thanks for understanding, we'll keep this amicable.

Personally, I find the whole thing indicative of this arc's incredibly slow pace that Vegeta has been training all this time and never got round to the main technique associated with Yardrat. Equally, I would have liked if they just subverted my expectations outright and he could have just not learned it at all, but instead it felt like it was done by half-measures. It's not so much that he just learned it, it's that he goes out of his way to say that he refuses to fully learn it for arbitrary reasons. From this point on, he can never groan about having to hold Goku's hand/shoulder whenever they need to teleport somewhere, I'll just leave it at that.

I agree that there are snippets of potential growth sprinkled in there, but I just get the feeling that we're in a "two steps forward, one step back" situation. The promise of his new technique could be a sign of divergence, but his refusal to learn another potentially useful technique indicates stagnation. Likewise, Goku may have Ultra Instinct Sign at will, but he seems to be making the same mistakes with it as in the Tournament of Power despite having trained for months. We could have had a meaningful costume switch like with Kibito changing Gohan's Kai costume for an orange dogi to symbolise him emulating his father, but the Elder Yardrat just gives Vegeta his same old Saiyan armour. Visually, the characters still aren't progressing, which I think is a problem for such a aesthetically-oriented series.

I wasn't moved by him thanking the Yardrats because we really still have no idea who the Yardrats even are, which is another overall frustrating point about this arc. Aside from being vaguely wise and spiritual, I can't tell you a single personality trait of any of them nor would I have remembered their names. I'm sure you can agree that we could have spent more time developing them, seeing their genuine importance to the story and skipped over some of the Z-Fighter antics on Earth. The I.T. thing may be a molehill but its tunnels lead to a garden full of them.

[Matches Malone]

Based on the manga it appears to be some sort of absorption or Ki stealing technique and I really hope its not. I hope it’s something we can see Vegeta use in the future.

Some Yeardratians are shown on the ground with their energy drained and Vegeta pointing at them, so chances are that's exactly what it is.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I hope that the technique Vegeta learned isn’t Moro Specific and can be a staple Vegeta move like how Instant Transmission is a Goku Staple.

Based on the manga it appears to be some sort of absorption or Ki stealing technique and I really hope its not. I hope it’s something we can see Vegeta use in the future.

It would be dumb if Vegeta went through all these hoops only to not keep a technique. The point of fighting all these damn threats story wise is so Vegeta and Goku can improve since Beerus won't deal with them. They just have to keep busting their asses off again and again and it would be dumb for Goku and Vegeta to not have something to stick with them.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

With these shitty quarantines going on for as long as they have, I think I can say with confidence that a fair bit of us aren't in the highest spirits right now. Depression sucks.

Truer words have not been spoken. With that said, I think that the solution to all the world's problems right now is for Vegeta to deliver a good fight next month. If he can beat Moro and maybe even kill him, the planet will finally achieve world peace.

That would be just perfect, for a fight. Vegeta is about to finish Moro off, when suddenly he lets his guard down and gets cocky because, Vegeta...and then

Seven Three : Slowly inching his way to Vegeta's neck to ruin Vegeta's chance of victory...

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta is about to finish Moro off, when suddenly he lets his guard down and gets cocky because, Vegeta...and then Seven Three : Slowly inching his way to Vegeta's neck to ruin Vegeta's chance of victory...

Considering everyone's been expecting this to happen, I wonder if the complete opposite will, in that Vegeta will kill Moro, only for 7-3 to grab him and take his new technique, making him the final person they fight.

[JulieYBM]

Trying to copy the reckless abandon with which Toriyama writes is foolhardy. It works for Toriyama because he truly has no shits to give.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Of all of Super so far, this arc is easily the closest to the feel of Dragon Ball Z.

[The Undying]

but instead it felt like it was done by half-measures.

The point of these "half-measures", in my view, is exactly what you'd seemed to claim they were devoid of: Vegeta's maturity. Him being willing to learn IT when the situation called for it, then using it without assistance to maintain Yardrat's law and order, then thanking the Yardratians, then telling Goku that he doesn't want to ride his coattails while admitting that he didn't think he could pull it off again demonstrates a pretty crucial sense of humility that the series too often brushes over. That's four different examples in the span of a few short pages.

If the story outright gave him the technique for permanent use, all of that would have been diminished at worst and overshadowed at best. Vegeta learned IT because he needed to, not because he wanted to, and so having it be some permanently accessible thing for the sake of kowtowing to fans would have severely undermined that point.

Again, this is showing Vegeta's growth while also remaining true to who Vegeta is. The idea of him using IT at all is fanservice to some degree, but it served his character here.

[Matches Malone]

Of all of Super so far, this arc is easily the closest to the feel of Dragon Ball Z.

Very much so. I think what's making it feel that way is the time it's taking to develop everything, as nothing's being rushed.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Overall, a pretty decent chapter. I loved the final panel of Vegeta dashing to Moro, and am actually really interested on what Vegeta's "new technique" will be against Moro. Please Toyo/Tori, don't do my boy Vege bad

My only issue with the chapter was Goku's UI problem. He's literally doing the exact same mistake he was doing in the manga's ToP, relying on brute power over actual fighting and technique. It's almost like a complete repeat of Goku obtaining UI again, and like what someone said above, it also almost feels like Goku's training with Merus was just a waste of time, aside from Goku being able to go Omen at will.

Now we just wait for UI (Silver)'s inevitable return.

In this case there was not much that Goku could do, he was almost running out of energy, so any technique or strategy would be useless. We can't expect him to just close his eyes and his hair to turn silver like in the ToP (Whis said it was a miracle), the only thing left was to try to use more power. Anyway, it served as an exposition to show that power stressed forms do not match the UI

[pepd]

Here is a theory: At the end Meerus interferes, Whis takes the responsibility and gets erased.||| Beerus vents with a serious fight against Goku/Vegeta.

As for IT Vegeta, I would have loved Vegeta making more and better use of it, and I think that could have been better executed, but here is crazy idea: what if he will use it again. I think that the same that happens with pages scans is happening with episodes.