"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:20 pm

I kinda find it funny that Vegeta asked Jaco if he could kill Moro.Who was going to object to the death of the planet eating psychopath? I get he may have done it out of some sort of...respect or decency, but lets be honest here, nobody would give Vegeta judgement for killing the guy who killed trillions.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Triggered Vegeta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:44 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 pm

TheSaiyanGod

Of course Vegeta would be his best meal yet, since all the others he has absorbed are most definitely way below Vegeta's current level.

Plus this chapter literally contradicts it anyway as Vegeta's punches weren't doing anything to Moro until he began losing power.

Go back to last chapter... They were literally going blow for blow until Goku's power began to fail him. Goku gave him a very hard time and even hurt Moro without the need to drain like Vegeta.

I don't believe this technique works on Goku... So yeah Vegeta is still below... But not by an absurd amount.

User avatar
Omniboy
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:28 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm
Omniboy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:53 pm
I'm confused about him about him being villain. Wasn't there a wish made in the buu saga that revived all the "good" people, and it was decided that Vegeta was one of them?
Yes, but Vegeta doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for those sins, despite the dragon and his friends saying otherwise.
I can understand Vegeta feeling as though he deserves hell, even though that isn't needed for the story at this point. But him saying that he is going to hell and that he is a villain, despite those thing being obviously untrue, which Vegeta himself should know, is a tad bit over dramatic and silly.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7841
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:09 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:50 pm
But that'd mean Vegeta is relative to prime Moro in raw power.. which we know is not the case. Goku's attacks had more power than Vegeta's.

Moro only began to really feel the blows after Vegeta started to drain him. Moro Prime = UI Omen in raw power. Only problem is Goku ran out of juice.
UI Omen Goku is weaker than Moro, Moro himself says that. Meanwhile, Goku put himself in an inferior position compared to Vegeta, which reinforces what Moro said about Vegeta being his best meal, implying that he is stronger than UI Omen Goku
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:53 pm
Draconic wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:13 pm


I don't see why Androids shouldn't have Spirit. At least those like 17 and 18 and possibly 7-3 too.

Thinking about it, though, no one uses it, so who knows the extent that would affect somebody else other than Moro... it might not affect them at all, or very little.

But I think that's fine. Vegeta learned this technique at this specific moment to defeat Moro. Later on he can still use it, but it's good he doesn't get something that could just end every fight anytime he fights, like UI feels. Keeps things more interesting.

Also, man, I haven't seen you in so long lol
Not sure how UI wins a fight every time when UI literally never won in the manga. Even in the anime, it only defeated Kelfa and it wasn’t even mentioned in the Broly movie.

Also, I doubt we’ll ever see this again when Toyo pretends Goku doesn’t know the Evil Containment Wave nor Hakai.
Toyo recognized SSBE and Roshi's fake UI after ToP. Mafuba is a technique that Goku was only willing to use because the enemy was immortal. In the case of Moro, he was only arrested by the Galactic Patrol because they were unable to kill him. I don't think that locking him back in a jar with Mafuba would be the best option. The only thing that was ignored was Hakai, which is also not a technique that Goku likes to use
It was an option that was outright ignored, even if we argued that just locking him in a rice cooker wasn’t the perfect solution. They didn’t even bring it up. Same with Hakai. Vegeta hates fusing, but he mentions it.

You can’t just have solutions to a problem and pretend they don’t exist.

And Toyo also never mentioned the Gamma Flash ever again.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm

Omniboy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:28 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm
Omniboy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:53 pm
I'm confused about him about him being villain. Wasn't there a wish made in the buu saga that revived all the "good" people, and it was decided that Vegeta was one of them?
Yes, but Vegeta doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for those sins, despite the dragon and his friends saying otherwise.
I can understand Vegeta feeling as though he deserves hell, even though that isn't needed for the story at this point. But him saying that he is going to hell and that he is a villain, despite those thing being obviously untrue, which Vegeta himself should know, is a tad bit over dramatic and silly.
No it isn't. Vegeta is trying to redeem himself cause he knows what he has done and what he deserves.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:42 pm

I wonder how long until Moro decides to try angering Goku and Vegeta. A good portion of the people Moro has killed on screen are defenceless populations or his own minions,(Saganbo, Shimorekka). I doubt Moro isn't killing at least one of the Z fighters in this fight.

Other major villains have killed someone close to the Z Goku or Vegeta, Frieza killed Krillin, Cell killed Future Trunks twice counting the alternate timeline, Goku technically, and Buu...yeah and he just killed almost everyone and ate them. Then there's Goku Black and Zamasu, the former who killed Goku's family in cold blood but probably slaughtered the rest of the Z fighters as well and killed Future Bulma and nearly killed Future Trunks multiple times.

I wouldn't be shocked if when this fusion gets the upper hand, he just kills one of the higher tier fighters.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:19 pm
The issue is that Vegeta has already made amends.
This is absolutely not true and completely misrepresents what "making amends" even means.

Redemption isn't a binary process, it's an ongoing one. Vegeta didn't magically become better when he grieved over Trunks, he continued to improve later on in the manga. He didn't magically become better when he sacrificed himself to stop Boo, he continued to improve later on in the same story arc. He didn't magically become better at the end of Toriyama's original story, he continued to show further growth in Battle of Gods.

Vegeta's story is one of constant self-improvement, maturity and development. There's no such thing as a "natural ending" for his most defining character theme; that's nonsense.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:19 pm
And even if you wanted to go back into that well, I'm certain Vegeta has killed many more people/species than just the Namkeians and some of the people on Earth.
Exactly.

Atonement is a process. Growth is a process. These are never binary.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:19 pm
Trying to villainize Vegeta at this stage, when knows he's better than what he was before, is beyond reductive.
Nobody's trying to "villainize" Vegeta, least of all Vegeta himself. He doesn't believe he's done enough to redeem himself for his previous actions. When he says he's a villain, he's berating himself, not villainizing himself.

Again, what's surprising to the characters isn't just that he's a better person now, that's old news. It's how much further he's willing to go to become a good person, despite prior improvements.

This Vegeta is even more "Vegeta" than almost any of his other appearances in the entire Super franchise.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Noitsnothim
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:07 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:42 pm
I wonder how long until Moro decides to try angering Goku and Vegeta. A good portion of the people Moro has killed on screen are defenceless populations or his own minions,(Saganbo, Shimorekka). I doubt Moro isn't killing at least one of the Z fighters in this fight.

Other major villains have killed someone close to the Z Goku or Vegeta, Frieza killed Krillin, Cell killed Future Trunks twice counting the alternate timeline, Goku technically, and Buu...yeah and he just killed almost everyone and ate them. Then there's Goku Black and Zamasu, the former who killed Goku's family in cold blood but probably slaughtered the rest of the Z fighters as well and killed Future Bulma and nearly killed Future Trunks multiple times.

I wouldn't be shocked if when this fusion gets the upper hand, he just kills one of the higher tier fighters.
Watch Gohan die

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:20 pm

I know I had a hissyfit about the last chapter and swore never to return, of course I did. I should've come to terms with the fact that every Super chapter is kind of a roulette on quality, but this one... this one won out in my book, I think. Not perfect, but an improvement.

Okay first off, seeing as it's the current point of discussion, Vegeta seeing himself as a villain does make perfect sense. Even if others have forgiven him, he's hardly repented his fair share even now. Even so, I don't think that line is meant to be taken overly literally. Vegeta loves projecting a ruthless image, especially to his enemies. I see this more as grandstanding than anything, and a fuck you to that power-stealing goat. Vegeta's the dude that takes on the bad guy like a bad guy. He's the Wolverine, the Punisher, the Spawn, the Taxi Driver, the Jaws, the- where was I going with this again? :crazy: Anyway, I don't see how it's a problem now. I've criticised this manga's bad writing in the past but this isn't an example of it, imo.

What is a bit more of a problem is, well, the same old same old devices and cliches. Vegeta stands around yapping too much and Moro gets a power-up. Dunno why I expected anything different, lmao. Moro 7-3 is a pretty laughable design and pshows that Toyotaro will never fully outgrow his roots as a fan artist :roll:

This chapter was weirdly self-aware. Piccolo outright discussing Vegeta's character growth over the years (and Goku not caring)... can't say I expected it to be said so bluntly in the story itself. It was hilarious how Piccolo's talking about how Vegeta's such a great guy now while Vegeta's sadistically pounding the shit out of this geriatric with a smile on his face. It felt a bit shilly but it was charming in a way - it's always been a mostly unsaid thing but now the cat's out the bag.
I am 999 years old. I don't give a f--

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:26 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:07 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:42 pm
I wonder how long until Moro decides to try angering Goku and Vegeta. A good portion of the people Moro has killed on screen are defenceless populations or his own minions,(Saganbo, Shimorekka). I doubt Moro isn't killing at least one of the Z fighters in this fight.

Other major villains have killed someone close to the Z Goku or Vegeta, Frieza killed Krillin, Cell killed Future Trunks twice counting the alternate timeline, Goku technically, and Buu...yeah and he just killed almost everyone and ate them. Then there's Goku Black and Zamasu, the former who killed Goku's family in cold blood but probably slaughtered the rest of the Z fighters as well and killed Future Bulma and nearly killed Future Trunks multiple times.

I wouldn't be shocked if when this fusion gets the upper hand, he just kills one of the higher tier fighters.
Watch Gohan die
That or Gohan kills himself trying to stop Moro. Personally would prefer Gohan to preform an attack that is basically suicide to give Goku and Vegeta time to stop Moro while obliterating himself in the process

If Moro kills Gohan he gets to see what MUI looks like real quick. We all know Goku would lose his shit and try murdering Moro if he killed Gohan in cold blood.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:32 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:08 pm
DiscountDabi wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:45 pm
1. Just because you admit that someone is better than you doesn’t mean you can’t strive to try and close the gap still. Its like if I gave up on becoming a chef because I’ll never be as good as Gordon Ramsey.

Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person is terrible writing because it undermines circumstances in the original story (mass revival of only good people who died on Earth in the Majin Boo arc) and even Super itself (Vegeta qualifying as a righteous person to take part in the Super Saiyan God ritual in the Battle Of Gods arc). Vegeta himself has gone through two different experiences where it's made demonstratively clear he's not a bad person. But the Toyotaro wants you to forget that so he could have added "depth" to Vegeta's character, where there didn't need to be.
For the last damn time they didn't "only revive good people"
They bought back all the people except the REALLY evil ones (ala Dabra the king of demons).
It always pissed me off how Vegeta got off so light for LITERAL GENOCIDE so him self policing this is great.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1454
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:34 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 pm
TheSaiyanGod

Of course Vegeta would be his best meal yet, since all the others he has absorbed are most definitely way below Vegeta's current level.

Plus this chapter literally contradicts it anyway as Vegeta's punches weren't doing anything to Moro until he began losing power.

Go back to last chapter... They were literally going blow for blow until Goku's power began to fail him. Goku gave him a very hard time and even hurt Moro without the need to drain like Vegeta.

I don't believe this technique works on Goku... So yeah Vegeta is still below... But not by an absurd amount.
Moro witnessed the full power of UI Goku. However, even after seeing Vegeta's power he praised him and said it would be his best meal. It implies that Vegeta’s energy could provide a better meal than the previous opponent

Since Vegeta's technique probably doesn't even work on Goku, what's the point of Goku saying that he would need to overcome Vegeta again, if he is supposed to be stronger with UI Omen? No previous dialogue implies that Goku was talking about anything other than power, this is the context that makes the most sense.

And Moro was stronger than Goku, he says that in the previous chapter

Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you''.
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm
It was an option that was outright ignored, even if we argued that just locking him in a rice cooker wasn’t the perfect solution. They didn’t even bring it up. Same with Hakai. Vegeta hates fusing, but he mentions it.

You can’t just have solutions to a problem and pretend they don’t exist.

And Toyo also never mentioned the Gamma Flash ever again.
But what is the point of bringing Mafuba? It would be something like

'' What about Mafuba? We could use it to seal Moro. ''

"Nah, it's too dangerous to seal Moro again, we need to kill him"

Anyway, Mafuba would not be used. Only Hakai was really ignored

And Vegeta literally used Gamma Burst Flash in the previous arc of the manga against Jiren

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:42 pm

I think it's fair to say I've given this arc a fair shot. I've been harsh in some places, but I think we generally agree that I've been fair.

This chapter was trash. Here are my problems:

1. All this build up for a super secret technique that Vegeta was offscreen learning... and it's just "this undoes Moro's power". I mean what? Why would the Yardrats know that technique? Shouldn't it be the Metamorese who know that? But ignoring all that plot stuff... why would you write like this? Imagine if instead of concocting a strategy to take the death star down, the rebels just created an anti-death star shield that completely nullifies the death star? That would be pretty unsatisfying writing, no?

Why would you build up the secret technique, Moro's absorption ability, and then the climax is you have a technique that just negates it? This is lazy. It is lazy writing.

Vegeta is my favorite character in all of fiction, but I don't give two shits about him losing here. That doesn't matter at all to me.

2. What is even the point of introducing an even stronger form for Moro when we established a chapter or two ago that he's already far above everyone? This only worked with Frieza because the whole point of him was he was completely beyond everyone. That's not Moro's shtick, and even if it were, it would just be a retread.

This is an artificial raising of stakes that makes no writing sense.

3. "Wow, the dragonballs must've kept their bodies from rotting" - I mean what?! What kind of writing is this? If you knew from the start this is what you were going to do, why not just have them gather up the bodies back on Namek a year ago so you wouldn't have to bring it up so lazily? Toriyama's manga is full of fast and loose writing, but never the kind that just makes you go "whaaaaat?" like this. This is terrible attention to detail, and is completely unlike Toyotaro.

4. Everything surrounding Vegeta and Piccolo was abysmal. Vegeta already atoned for his ills in the Buu arc. Piccolo himself already made these observations about Vegeta as a person when he decided to sacrifice himself against Buu. Why is Toyotaro retreading this ground? This adds nothing to Vegeta as a character, and I'm sick of Piccolo just being a stand-in for the writer telling you what he's trying to convey.

Overall, this is the worst chapter of the arc, and the arc is already mediocre to bad (mind you, the manga at its worst is still better than everything else at their best). This is just awful, and shows that Toyotaro isn't anywhere near ready as a writer to take over. This whole thing is just one big dumb filler arc with all the hallmarks of bad fanfiction. Terrible.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:52 pm

I imagine MUI would only show up when in an instance of great emotion. I can't see it happening the next chapter or even the next one after that. MUI really only shows up when Goku feels he's pretty much on the line of death and is usually triggered in the worst possible times, when the chips are down and everyone is in danger.

Easiest way for Moro to trigger it would be to just brutally kill Goku's friends or his son. Moro hasn't really killed anyone of significance, hell the guy has a knack for killing his own henchmen if anything. Personally, would rather Goku and Vegeta are trying to seperate Moro, the Z fighters work on distracting him and Gohan gets killed trying to stop Moro via killing himself or Moro killing him.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:57 pm

So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

This was a really good chapter, IMO. Solid character stuff from Vegeta and Piccolo, I like Vegeta's solution being to force Moro to fight with his own (rather puny) strength, etc.
There's extra layers to Piccolo's talk about Vegeta trying to "wipe the slate clean"; Piccolo is presumably talking from experience, with his own attempts to wipe the slate clean after reincarnating from his Daimao form...

But, critically, I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7841
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:58 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 pm
TheSaiyanGod

Of course Vegeta would be his best meal yet, since all the others he has absorbed are most definitely way below Vegeta's current level.

Plus this chapter literally contradicts it anyway as Vegeta's punches weren't doing anything to Moro until he began losing power.

Go back to last chapter... They were literally going blow for blow until Goku's power began to fail him. Goku gave him a very hard time and even hurt Moro without the need to drain like Vegeta.

I don't believe this technique works on Goku... So yeah Vegeta is still below... But not by an absurd amount.
Moro witnessed the full power of UI Goku. However, even after seeing Vegeta's power he praised him and said it would be his best meal. It implies that Vegeta’s energy could provide a better meal than the previous opponent

Since Vegeta's technique probably doesn't even work on Goku, what's the point of Goku saying that he would need to overcome Vegeta again, if he is supposed to be stronger with UI Omen? No previous dialogue implies that Goku was talking about anything other than power, this is the context that makes the most sense.

And Moro was stronger than Goku, he says that in the previous chapter

Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you''.
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm
It was an option that was outright ignored, even if we argued that just locking him in a rice cooker wasn’t the perfect solution. They didn’t even bring it up. Same with Hakai. Vegeta hates fusing, but he mentions it.

You can’t just have solutions to a problem and pretend they don’t exist.

And Toyo also never mentioned the Gamma Flash ever again.
But what is the point of bringing Mafuba? It would be something like

'' What about Mafuba? We could use it to seal Moro. ''

"Nah, it's too dangerous to seal Moro again, we need to kill him"

Anyway, Mafuba would not be used. Only Hakai was really ignored

And Vegeta literally used Gamma Burst Flash in the previous arc of the manga against Jiren
What would be the point? I would allowed someone like Piccolo to beat Moro, or at least stall him. It's literally an option on the table that is not brought up.

If Moro is too powerful to kill, as he proven to be for the last few chapters, then sealing him is the next best choice. You think Roshi and his master wanted to kill King Piccolo instead of sealing him? I'm sure they did, but that wasn't an option at the time.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Noitsnothim
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:00 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 pm
TheSaiyanGod

Of course Vegeta would be his best meal yet, since all the others he has absorbed are most definitely way below Vegeta's current level.

Plus this chapter literally contradicts it anyway as Vegeta's punches weren't doing anything to Moro until he began losing power.

Go back to last chapter... They were literally going blow for blow until Goku's power began to fail him. Goku gave him a very hard time and even hurt Moro without the need to drain like Vegeta.

I don't believe this technique works on Goku... So yeah Vegeta is still below... But not by an absurd amount.
Moro witnessed the full power of UI Goku. However, even after seeing Vegeta's power he praised him and said it would be his best meal. It implies that Vegeta’s energy could provide a better meal than the previous opponent

Since Vegeta's technique probably doesn't even work on Goku, what's the point of Goku saying that he would need to overcome Vegeta again, if he is supposed to be stronger with UI Omen? No previous dialogue implies that Goku was talking about anything other than power, this is the context that makes the most sense.

And Moro was stronger than Goku, he says that in the previous chapter

Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you''.
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm
It was an option that was outright ignored, even if we argued that just locking him in a rice cooker wasn’t the perfect solution. They didn’t even bring it up. Same with Hakai. Vegeta hates fusing, but he mentions it.

You can’t just have solutions to a problem and pretend they don’t exist.

And Toyo also never mentioned the Gamma Flash ever again.
But what is the point of bringing Mafuba? It would be something like

'' What about Mafuba? We could use it to seal Moro. ''

"Nah, it's too dangerous to seal Moro again, we need to kill him"

Anyway, Mafuba would not be used. Only Hakai was really ignored

And Vegeta literally used Gamma Burst Flash in the previous arc of the manga against Jiren
3 outcomes I can see happening:
1. Goku uses Hakai on Moro73 and it actually works unlike how it did on Merged Zamasu in the FT saga
2. Merus saves the day and sacrifices himself to take out Moro73
3. Merus holds off Moro73 to buy time for Goku & Vegeta to do Fusion as Gogeta and get absorbed by Majin Boo and the 3 (Majin Boo, Daikaio, Gogeta) fight Moro73 evening out the playingfield

Then there's also this inevitable outcome that most likely could happen:
Goku taps into Omen and buys Vegeta time in order for him to use spirit separation on Moro73 thus severing the fusion and it's a
Goku Vs. 73 and Vegeta Vs.Moro 1 on 1 battle

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20963
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:00 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Redemption isn't a binary process, it's an ongoing one. Vegeta didn't magically become better when he grieved over Trunks, he continued to improve later on in the manga. He didn't magically become better when he sacrificed himself to stop Boo, he continued to improve later on in the same story arc. He didn't magically become better at the end of Toriyama's original story, he continued to show further growth in Battle of Gods.

Vegeta's story is one of constant self-improvement, maturity and development. There's no such thing as a "natural ending" for his most defining character theme; that's nonsense.
Redemption literally means saving yourself from sin... and that happened for Vegeta. He died trying to save those he cared for from a threat he helped create, played a major supporting role in saving the universe and was then brought back to life because it had been determined that, contrary to what Piccolo believed would be his fate given how he lived his life, he was no longer an evil person. All the development that Vegeta has gotten after that has done nothing more than reinforce the notion that Vegeta redeemed himself and has become a more caring person. Battle Of Gods was the exclamation point for this.
The Undying wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Atonement is a process. Growth is a process. These are never binary.
The problem is the lack of sincerity. I don't mind the idea of atonement, but it's far too fucking late for that. And it's only being brought up now because of plot convenience. You wanna know how I know this? If Vegeta was serious about atoning for his past, he would have suggested using the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect all the people he killed while working for Freeza during the Universal Survival arc. That could have been a great angle for Vegeta to win the Tournament Of Power.

Lets be honest... do you really think this whole atonement angle will be brought up after this arc?
The Undying wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Nobody's trying to "villainize" Vegeta, least of all Vegeta himself. He doesn't believe he's done enough to redeem himself for his previous actions. When he says he's a villain, he's berating himself, not villainizing himself.
Saying that you are going to hell is beyond berating. That is not the kind of shit you would say when you want to criticise or scold someone or yourself. Vegeta is unnecessarily putting himself back on a broken pedestal he already came off of.
The Undying wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm
Again, what's surprising to the characters isn't just that he's a better person now, that's old news. It's how much further he's willing to go to become a good person, despite prior improvements.
If Vegeta wants to be seen as as even better person, that's fine. Labelling himself a villain and saying he's going to hell is 100 steps backwards for his character. It flies right in the face of what happened during the Majin Boo arc and Battle Of Gods.
The Undying wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 pm
This Vegeta is even more "Vegeta" than almost any of his other appearances in the entire Super franchise.
I don't agree with that all, but that's just me.

I'm not against the idea of Vegeta feeling remorse for his past, it's just that the execution of Vegeta's self assessment when it came to his morality was fucking horrendous.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:07 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:00 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 pm
TheSaiyanGod

Of course Vegeta would be his best meal yet, since all the others he has absorbed are most definitely way below Vegeta's current level.

Plus this chapter literally contradicts it anyway as Vegeta's punches weren't doing anything to Moro until he began losing power.

Go back to last chapter... They were literally going blow for blow until Goku's power began to fail him. Goku gave him a very hard time and even hurt Moro without the need to drain like Vegeta.

I don't believe this technique works on Goku... So yeah Vegeta is still below... But not by an absurd amount.
Moro witnessed the full power of UI Goku. However, even after seeing Vegeta's power he praised him and said it would be his best meal. It implies that Vegeta’s energy could provide a better meal than the previous opponent

Since Vegeta's technique probably doesn't even work on Goku, what's the point of Goku saying that he would need to overcome Vegeta again, if he is supposed to be stronger with UI Omen? No previous dialogue implies that Goku was talking about anything other than power, this is the context that makes the most sense.

And Moro was stronger than Goku, he says that in the previous chapter

Moro: ''If this is truly the extent of your power... then I will not fall to you''.
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:41 pm
It was an option that was outright ignored, even if we argued that just locking him in a rice cooker wasn’t the perfect solution. They didn’t even bring it up. Same with Hakai. Vegeta hates fusing, but he mentions it.

You can’t just have solutions to a problem and pretend they don’t exist.

And Toyo also never mentioned the Gamma Flash ever again.
But what is the point of bringing Mafuba? It would be something like

'' What about Mafuba? We could use it to seal Moro. ''

"Nah, it's too dangerous to seal Moro again, we need to kill him"

Anyway, Mafuba would not be used. Only Hakai was really ignored

And Vegeta literally used Gamma Burst Flash in the previous arc of the manga against Jiren
3 outcomes I can see happening:
1. Goku uses Hakai on Moro73 and it actually works unlike how it did on Merged Zamasu in the FT saga
2. Merus saves the day and sacrifices himself to take out Moro73
3. Merus holds off Moro73 to buy time for Goku & Vegeta to do Fusion as Gogeta and get absorbed by Majin Boo and the 3 (Majin Boo, Daikaio, Gogeta) fight Moro73 evening out the playingfield

Then there's also this inevitable outcome that most likely could happen:
Goku taps into Omen and buys Vegeta time in order for him to use spirit separation on Moro73 thus severing the fusion and it's a
Goku Vs. 73 and Vegeta Vs.Moro 1 on 1 battle

I hope they don't have Merus intervene, it would be so stupid as Beerus is already on his way to earth and I doubt Whis will let him do anything. The last thing Whis needs is the ire of the Grand Priest.

I kinda doubt 7-3 would be much of a challenge for Goku. I mean 17 was running circles around him. Unless Moro ported his strength into him after they defused, which I don't understand how that works, I doubt Goku wouldn't be able to handle him.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

Kinokima
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1332
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:10 pm

Merus intervening makes way more sense than Beerus. Beerus has literally played no role this arc except a minor scene here or there.

Post Reply